In the thread,"Can we learn from B. Stone" It seems to have drifted a bit. It brings to mind a situtation that I went through this week. Therefore I would like to ask for learned opinions and insight concerning the following.

My wife and had a very close friend that died this week. Her husband and I have been friends for about 55 years. She was our friend for 43 years. They were members of the Baptist church. At the funeral the Baptist preacher said she had repented and been baptized into THE CHURCH.( That alone brings up some interesting questions). Through the years in our discussions they both say they were baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. When their daughter was young they asked me to talk with her. She repented and was baptized for the forgiveness of her sins.

I am not asking anyone to be a judge but looking for wisdom. Any part of this you would care to comment on I am interested to hear.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2001

Answers

Brother Faris:

You have said:

“In the thread,"Can we learn from B. Stone" It seems to have drifted a bit.”

This usually happens when we seek guidance from men instead of the word of God. In fact, the very idea of trying to learn more from men like Brother Stone, or any other men for that matter, when we are not seeking regularly to learn more from God and his word. Then we too are apt to “drift” as the tread of which you speak has drifted. Please do not misunderstand. I do not criticize learning from our brethren whether it is Brother Stone or any others. But let us not learn anything from them that is not sustained and supported by what is taught by inspired men in God’s word concerning our spiritual well being. Learning about these important things should not come from the opinions of men but from the word of God, which is inspired by the Holy Spirit. If we do not pay attention to this we shall drift dangerously off course.

In other words why do we not have brothers asking us if we cannot learn more from the inspired apostles and writers of the New Testament? Instead, those seeking to gain support for their perversions in the church want us to learn more from their favorite men in the restoration movement in the things they taught during their favorite times such as they were emerging from the errors of denominationalism. They do this in a desire to lead us back to the Babylon that these men left as fast as it was humanly possible to leave. And they therefore wish for us to learn less from inspired men.

It is indeed wise to seek our learning from those who were inspired of God. When is the last time you have seen a thread asking if we could not learn more from Jesus Christ our Lord and his wonderful teaching or from Paul, James, Peter, John, Jude, and others who we all know to be inspired? It is pathetic when we had to beg for others to respond to our suggestion to learn more from expositions of God’s word and then in comes someone suggesting that we can learn more from a restoration leader. And it was not all restoration leaders but rather a particular one of the restoration leaders that at some point in his struggle to free himself from sectarianism still had some notions that were not in harmony with the truth of God’s word. They prefer that we dwell upon these things while the word of God is ignored. Those who began this reformation would be ashamed of us in this regard!

Then you have said:

“ It brings to mind a situtation that I went through this week. Therefore I would like to ask for learned opinions and insight concerning the following.”

I understand your question that follows but I have no “learned” opinions to offer for in the realm of various “opinions” I am not a learned man. But I can say what the word of God has to say about the matter and if I know you this will be of interest to you.

Then you say:

“My wife and had a very close friend that died this week. Her husband and I have been friends for about 55 years. She was our friend for 43 years.”

I am indeed sorry to hear of the loss of such a close, dear and long time friend to you Brother Faris. I can understand how painful such must be. I will pray for you and your friends and especially for your wife.

Then you say:

“ They were members of the Baptist church.”

It is sad to see that they had never learned of the church of Christ, which he built and bought with his own blood. (Matt. 16:16-18). And that they may have known nothing more than the false doctrine of salvation by faith only taught by the Baptist church which is counter to the very gospel of Christ which was delivered to the church of Christ and not the Baptist church. (1 Tim. 3:15). One could not find a Baptist church in the word of God in any place. And thousands of good people are being deceived into thinking that they are Christians when most of them are nothing more than “Baptist”.

Then you state:

“At the funeral the Baptist preacher said she had repented and been baptized into THE CHURCH.( That alone brings up some interesting questions).”

Baptist preachers are hypocrites when they speak of baptism at funerals! Let them speak the truth about it to the living instead of mentioning in a favorable light only when presiding over the dead!

But if she actually followed Baptist teaching then this is exactly what she would have done. She would have been baptized solely to join the Baptist church. Something that the word of God does not even remotely teach. In fact such is the direct opposite to the teaching of God’s eternal word. (Acts 2:38-47). And if she believed the false doctrine of salvation by faith only she could not have been baptized for the remission of sins because she would have of necessity believed that her sins were forgiven the moment that she first believed before and completely without being baptized. Which is a pernicious false doctrine that is contrary to the teaching of Christ, who said, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). And the inspired words of Peter who said, “repent and be baptized every one of you n the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). All of this I am sure that you know quite well.

But then you inform us:

“ Through the years in our discussions they both say they were baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.”

Now this may have been true. For there are some Baptist who believe the truth about the fact that baptism is essential to salvation and that one must be baptized for the remission of sins. And there are many people who study the word of God for themselves and seldom listen to their preachers because they can tell from their studies that the preacher himself has not STUDIED. And thus it would be possible for such a person to learn the truth and asked to be baptized according to the teaching that they have learned from their own personal study of the word of God. And thus contrary to rather than from the false teaching a ranting of their preachers who teach lies they willing seek to do the will of Christ. Even Alexander Campbell himself did this very thing.

I have a book written by a man named Beasley who makes very strong scriptural argument that would convince even the false teachers in this forum who deny that baptism is essential that they are miserably wrong about the matter. And he is a Baptist from Great Britain. And I would not doubt for one moment that he was without question baptized for the remission of sins according to the teaching of the inspired word of God in Acts 2:38. I do have my doubts as to whether your friends had that firm conviction and knowledge of the truth when they were baptized. For it is indeed difficult to be “taught wrong and baptized right”. But that depends upon who taught them. For if Christ through His holy word was their teacher we know that they were taught right. But if they followed the doctrine of the Baptist Church they would have never learned the truth.

But, now that she has passed away let us assume that she, according to her own words, was in fact baptized fort the remission of sins according to the teaching of the word of God. (Acts 2:38). And if this is true, and we have not sufficient evidence to deny it in her case, then she was a Christian who thought she was a “Baptist” rather than a Baptist who was deceived into thinking she was a “Christian”. And let us hope that such was indeed the case with your dear friend.

But, If she were still living we would dig more deeply into this subject with her and show her how the Baptist Church is teaching persons the false doctrine of salvation by faith only which is contrary to what she claimed not to believe. And with that knowledge we would teach her that as a Christian and a faithful member of the Church of Christ she must come out of the bondage of the Babylon of sectarian denominations. And cling only to Christ as her Lord following the word of God as her only rule of faith and practice. And be a Christian only and not a Baptist at all and cease her unwitting support of that which she obviously knew to be false, untrue, and contrary to the doctrine of Christ. There would be no need to baptize again one that had already been baptized for the remission of sins according to the teaching of the word of God but there would be a great need to urge her to be faithful to the truth. And remain sternly faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ, which would lead her to conscientiously oppose the false doctrine of salvation by faith only, taught by the Baptist.

But for now she is no longer with us and she is in the hands of a just God who knows with assurance whether she obeyed the gospel or not. And if she did obey the gospel she is in the house of God (1 Peter 4:16-18) and was a Christian who thought she was a Baptist instead of a Baptist who thought she was a Christian. But if she never obeyed the gospel of Christ then she will, as sad as it is to contemplate, be among those who will be “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of his power.” (2 Thess. 1:8,9) For God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). It is my highest hope that she is to be counted among the former and not the latter. But in either case we can do nothing for anyone who has gone on to his or her reward, whatever their reward might be. But let us teach our friends and “knowing the terror of the Lord let us PERSUADE men”. So that when we attend their funerals we can in confidence know that they have in fact obeyed the gospel of Christ instead of standing around in doubt and wondering as if we just hope they will in some way be saved without having ever in truth obeyed the gospel. While this hope is a kind and loving sentiment it is also a most useless and helpless one.

But let all know that regardless of the situation no one who has failed to obey the gospel will be saved even if they are our dear friends. (2 Thess. 1:8,9) This should move us to not rest until our friends learn the truth and it should make us fight like a “bear robbed of her cubs” when a false teacher seeks to mislead them. And woe to those false teachers who are, by the thousands, deceiving our friends into believing that they are Christians when in fact they have never obeyed the gospel of Christ. For they will face God’s wrath! They will be anathema, and they should be. (Gal. 1:8,9).

Then you inform us:

“ When their daughter was young they asked me to talk with her. She repented and was baptized for the forgiveness of her sins.”

Thank God she learned the truth from you and she obeyed the gospel of Christ she “repented and was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”. (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16). May our Lord bless you for helping her avoid the false doctrine of salvation by faith only. Just think what a tragedy it would have been if you had believed that this was not important for her to understand when coming to Christ in obedience to the gospel. She may have never learned the truth and would have spent her entire life in darkness. I thank God for you Brother Faris!

Then I am happy that you say:

“I am not asking anyone to be a judge but looking for wisdom.”

I cannot impart wisdom to anyone but I know the only one who can. For we are told, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.” (James 1:5-7). For that reason I direct our readers to the inspired word of God where wisdom and truth can be found in abundance. And this is especially true in matters relating to the salvation of our eternal souls.

I cannot and have not judged anyone in my words, which I have written above. And it is my sincere hope that you will not think that such was in any way my intention. I have only warned every one that the judgement is coming and we must follow to the truth if we are to stand free from sin in that last day. ( John 8:31,32) And we will be judged by the very words of Christ (John 12:48) And we will be judged by Christ for God has appointed a day when he will judge the world in righteousness (Acts 17:30). Thus it is “appointed unto man once to die and after this cometh the judgement (Heb. 9:27). And let us not forget that judgement will begin at the house of God. And then it will extend to those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 4:16-18). And those who never obeyed the gospel of Christ will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of His power” (2 Thess. 1:8,9).

Oh, Brethren, “Behold now the goodness and the severity of the Lord” (Romans 11:22). And let us lead our fellowmen to obey the gospel that they may receive God’s goodness and let us warn them to flee the “wrath to come” so they will not become subject to the “severity of God”. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men”. Brethren, let us persuade as many as possible while we still have the breath of life. For the time is fast approaching when our lips shall be forever stilled and our pens will cease to write and our fingers can no longer type and we ourselves will be at the bar of justice to give an account.

May we follow your good example, Brother Faris, and teach our friends the truth and baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins according to His divine command found in Acts 2:38. And may we ever relentlessly fight ferociously against those deceivers who go about to teach them lies, which are contrary to the doctrine of Christ, which will place them in eternal danger of losing forever their precious souls.

And then you have graciously allowed us to comment only upon what we wish to speak to as follows:

“Any part of this you would care to comment on I am interested to hear.”

I sincerely know that you are ever ready and interested in hearing what others say and most importantly you have demonstrated a great interest in what the word of God has to say in all things. I am thankful for that marvelous, faithful trait demonstrated by your comments in this forum. And it is my sincere hope that you understand the spirit in which I have written these things.

I write them with the deepest sincere concern and love for my fellowmen. Who are being deceived into believing lies and deliberately misguided by Satan through his large band of servants who are false teachers that promote the grievous deception of “salvation by faith only” and who rail against the truth concerning “baptism for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). For by these liars thousands of precious souls for whom our Lord gave His precious blood are being lead into the flames of hell to suffer away from the presence of God forever in outer darkness. And I say this with tears! May God help them to read and understand God’s following very simple words:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16)

Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38).

With Love for all those who are being lead astray and sincere hope that your dear friend was not one of them,

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2001

E. Lee....I would like to comment on this remark made by you....

"Instead, those seeking to gain support for their perversions in the church want us to learn more from their favorite men in the restoration movement in the things they taught during their favorite times such as they were emerging from the errors of denominationalism."

You hit the nail right on the head!!! This is what I tried to explain in the other thread. These men were "in the process" of coming out of denominationalism....and therefore....how ridiculous to use them as supporters for those who appear to be "rejoining" demoninationalism.

It is good to see someone who understands what it means to judge men according to their time and historical context.

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

Faris,

I offer my condolences on your loss. I can really sympathize with you on this matter, as I have lost 2 family members this year (father & father-in-law) whose salvation was at best "suspect" according to my understanding of the Scriptures. It is still a bitter pill to have to swallow every day.

You can rest assured that when the Baptist Preacher said she was Baptized into the church, he meant the Baptist Church - not the universal Church of Jesus Christ.......that is the only interpretation his theology would allow. HOWEVER, the salvation of your friend doesn't depend upon the "Pastor's" understanding of Baptism; but on their own personal understanding.

This should be a comfort since they all have said that they were Baptized for remission of sin, not for church membership. We have to take a man's (or woman's) word at face value when they say something like that.....and in this case there is probably no need to worry.

As an example, let me relate a story that I've told on here before. I was raised in the baptist church and was Baptized at age 8. Was my Baptism effective??????

In my mind.......yes it was. I didn't submit to it to become a church member or because everyone else was doing it. I was Baptized because I read in my Bible that I was a sinner and that I was going to Hell if my sins were not forgiven. And the only way written there in the New Testament to remove one's sins, was to be Baptized...........so I did it. Did I know "everything" about Baptism at age 8 - obviously not (I'm not quite that brite). But I'm convinced that I knew enough and my conscience is clear in the fact that I did it for the right reason.

If your friend was of the same mind as I, then I would expect to see her, you, and a great many of my friends here on the Forum on some great day in the future. I'll save ya'll a good spot at the table for the Wedding Ferast of the Lamb!

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

Make that "Feast", instead of "ferast".

Musta been Satan afflicting my typing fingers (all two of them).

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

Good post Mark!!

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

Bro Saffold, are you affliated or were you with UPC?

-- Anonymous, October 12, 2001

Feris,

May I also offer my condolences.

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. ... Therefore encourage each other with these words."

Your friend in Christ,

-- Anonymous, October 13, 2001

Brother Sezme:

You have asked:

“Bro Saffold, are you affliated or were you with UPC?”

I have no idea who or what is the “UPC”. But I am affiliated. I am a Christian only and therefore my “affiliations” are with Christians only. I am therefore affiliated with Christ. I have no interest in any other type of affiliation. And I have no interest in any organizations, which have no genuine affiliation with our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus I will not lend conscious support to any organization other than the Church of Christ, which is the “pillar and ground of the truth”. Having been buried with Christ and raised with Him I seek to walk in newness of life in His presence and in His service. This is the only “affiliation” that I claim.

I hope that this answers your question. I apologize for the delay in responding to you but I have been moving into my new home and have not had time to respond.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 16, 2001

If I am not mistaken, UPC is short for United Pentecostal Church.

-- Anonymous, October 18, 2001

I appreciate your help in clearing up just what “UPC” is as follows:

“If I am not mistaken, UPC is short for United Pentecostal Church.”

This could be what Sezme was talking about though I am not sure. I thought he might have been referring to something like the United Presbyterian Church which is another denomination along with the “United Pentecostal Church” that is not even remotely mentioned in the New Testament.

And anyone reading what I have written in this forum over the past almost 2 years can readily see that E. Lee Saffold could not be placed in the fellowship of either of these humanly devised religious organizations. For they follow the doctrines and commandments of men rather than the precious doctrine of Christ. And I believe that my last post in this tread makes it quite clear that my affiliation is with Christ and all who are genuinely affiliated with him through their obedience to the gospel of Christ. And this means everyone who is in fact members of the family of God. Those who have been “born again of water and the spirit” (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5, Eph. 5:26,27; Heb. 10:22; Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16) where ever they are and regardless of how mistaken they may be concerning various matters which they have not yet come to understand. These are Christians with whom I am affiliated. But I have no natural or necessary affiliations with anyone outside of the “house of God which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the “pillar and ground of the truth”(1 Tim. 3:15).

There are only two spiritual kingdoms in this world. There is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan. I as are all those who have actually obeyed the gospel of Christ, am affiliated with those who are in the Kingdom of Christ, which is the church of Christ. (Matt. 16:16-18). And we have no affiliation with those who have never obeyed the gospel of Christ. For they remain as the servants of sin. For they are yet in rebellion against Christ and until they come to Christ in obedience to the gospel they are not in the body of Christ which is the Church of Christ (Eph. 1:22; Col. 1:18). They are therefore not my “brothers and sisters in Christ” because of the simple fact that they have not yet been born into the family of God by being obedient to the gospel of Christ.

But all those who have by faith (Romans 10:17; John 3; 16) repented of their sins (Acts 3:19), confessed that they believe Christ is the Son of God (Matt. 16:16-18; Romans 10:9,10). And have been baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) in obedience to the gospel of Christ which is God’s power to save (Romans 6:3-6; 16-18; Romans 1:16; Mark 16:16; Acts 8:35-40) are in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:26). They are then members of the family of God (1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Peter 4:16- 18) and they are then, and not one moment before then, members of that “peculiar race” that “royal priesthood” that “Holy Nation” for which all who have obeyed the gospel are a part. For we are told, “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” (1 Peter 2:9). Thus we walk with those who have, through their obedience to the gospel, come out of darkness into His marvellous light! For “What fellowship has darkness with light?”. None whatsoever! And what fellowship hath Christians with those who are not in Christ? NONE WHATSOEVER. Now we live in the world but we are not of the world and we are most assuredly not, in any way whatsoever, affiliated with those who teach doctrines that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9-11) and thereby we refuse to partake in their evil deeds.

Christians are the ones with whom I am and will ever be affiliated. It is for them my “tears shall fall and it is for them my prayers ascend”. It is with them I pray and work and fight to claim as many souls from the rebellion of Satan against God to “reconcile” lost souls to God through Christ our Lord. And this we do by preaching the “word of reconciliation”. And for this reason all false doctrines must be fought, resisted, and exposed. We are therefore “set for the defense of the gospel” (Phil. 1:17) and we “contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).

So, Brethren do not have anything to do with the “unfruitful works of darkness”. Go out into this world but ever remain apart from it. For we must remember to love not the world neither the things that are in the world. “Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15). Our affiliation is with Christ and we are members of his body the church. Sectarianism, denominationalism, and all other “isms” are not acceptable affiliations for Christians.

To those souls, wherever they may be among the sects that have in fact actually obeyed the gospel of Christ we plead. Please, “Come ye out from among them and be ye separate”. Leave the Babylon of sectarianism and return to the faith once delivered to the saints and become Christians only. Do not be a varying “brand” of Christians for there is only ONE kind of acceptable Christian in this world, which is a FAITHFUL ONE. All other kinds are false, hypocritical and fraudulent. If you are a Christian then glorify God in this NAME. You cannot find, when reading the New Testament, such things as Baptist Christians, Methodist Christians, and Presbyterian Christians. And you will never find a “Pentecostal Church” anywhere in the word of God. Paul was not “affiliated with the “Baptist” while Peter was affiliated with Roman Catholics and John was affiliated with Presbyterians! The very suggestion when put this away appears as silly and ridiculous as it is in fact today among those who pretend to be Christians while they have these various and contradictory “affiliations” none of which came from God.

Such was not the case with the apostles and early Christians who were guided directly by the Holy Spirit. They were all affiliated with Christ and they were all Christians and members of the same one and only church of Christ of which all other Christians were members. They bore the name of Christ and they joyfully suffered in this name (1 Peter 4:16-18). Thus they were not Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, or Roman Catholics in those days because God was not the author of any of those human organizations that exist and are common in our day. These organizations have from their inception been in direct and deliberate rebellion against God merely by their existence while simultaneously perpetuating the myth that they exist to serve God. In the New Testament you had two choices and only two. Your were either a Christian or you were NOT. And that choice is still the only choice that we have today even though Satan has tried to disguise it so that he can deceive people into thinking that they have other “acceptable” choices when in truth none exist but those two. Beware of the dangerous counterfeits posed by denominationalism and remember that such is sinful and must be resisted. (1 Cor. 1:10).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 18, 2001

ADK:

You have asked:

“Lee, according to your definition- there are Christians in denominations and other fellowships who are not a part of the Restoration Movement.”

Brother, We have not given our own “definition” of anything. WE have simply stated what the word of God states. When a person obeys the gospel of Christ by believing (John 3:16), repenting of their sins (Acts 3:19) Confessing Christ (Romans 10:9,10), and being baptized for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38). Then, and not one moment before then, they receive the remission of their sins and are added, by the same process, to the body or church of Christ (Acts 2:47; Eph. 1:22; Col. 1;18;24). This is the beginning of their new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-6;16-18). And from this point they are to “add to their faith” the Christian graces one of which is “knowledge”. And they are expected to “grow” in these graces “ For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:3-9). Thus, when they learn that they are “affiliated” with any organization that is opposed to the truth and the doctrine of Christ they are expected and obligated to “come out from among them” and be separated from anything that opposes Christ. Now this would include any supportive affiliation with evil not just sectarian and denominational evils.

Thus, there are Christians in any place where there are persons who have obeyed the gospel of Christ (1 Peter 4:16-18; 2 Thess 1:8,9). And those in the “restoration movement” were at one time “affiliated” with denominations. And as they studied the word of God they began to work their way out of the many errors of sectarianism and return to the pure Christian faith that existed in the days when men were lead directly by the Holy Spirit into all truth. (John 16:13;14:26) and they continued steadfastly in the apostles teaching (Acts 2:42) and have ever since being urging others, of similar circumstance, to come out of the sectarian affiliations and return to the truth and follow Christ and no others. This process continues to this day though you may not be aware of it.

Any Christian, as well as any group of Christians, can “stray”, if they are not careful, from the truth and wonder into errors, some of which are grievous and destructive. And any effort to lead such persons to return to the truth is very much an endeavor intended to “restore” them to a right relationship with God. In fact, the very idea of converting people to Christ is just that. It is “reconciling” them to God. A “restoration”, if you will, to their former state of innocence and submission to Him in all things, which existed before sin entered into this world. And such an effort can justly be called a “restoration”. And when one Christian errs from the truth we are taught to “restore such a one”. For Paul says, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” (Galatians 6:1). Those who have actually obeyed the gospel of Christ but remain in the denominations, and I must say that I doubt if there are many such persons, have been “overtaken” in the “fault” of sectarianism and denominationalism (1 Cor. 1:10). And let us not forget to mention the many other “faults” associated with sectarianism, which is the result of the great falling away from the truth that has occurred since the days of the apostles. And we are COMANDED to RESTORE such persons. Thus the current movement among Christians to restore those who have obeyed the gospel among the sects to the truth by calling them out from the sects is scriptural and a divine order from God. And the effort to convert those in the sects who are deceived into believing that they are Christians when in fact they have never obeyed the gospel is also a divine command. (Mark 16:15,16).

Such movement to do what God has commanded cannot by any means be called a “sectarian” endeavor nor can it be by any stretch of anyone’s imagination considered “denominational”. It is simply Christians obeying the teachings of Christ who is the head of the body, the church (Col. 1:18). There is nothing denominational or sectarian about it. And James also speaks to this matter. He says, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19,20). This would be, without doubt, a restoration of an erring saint to the truth of God and doing such is to “save a soul from death”! And anyone who sees anything “sectarian” or “denominational” about such an endeavor is just plain ignorant of the very concept of restoration.

Those who are foolish enough to seek to perceive of such an effort as an endeavor to establish yet another “sect” or “denomination” with a different human creed are simply ignorant of the horrific consequences of that great “falling away” from the truth. That terrible apostasy which was predicted by the Holy Spirit and that has actually occurred among the saints of God. (Acts 20:28-32; 2 Thess. 2:3) And a failure to attempt the much needed and essential return to the truth as it was taught by the apostles and early Christians, who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to “once for all” deliver the faith to the saints, is to failure to comprehend the devastating effects of the many hundreds of perversions of the truth that have occurred during and since the great apostasy. And no one with any understanding of the teaching of the word of God could doubt that the current efforts to reverse the effects of that falling away by restoring the teaching that originally came from the Holy Spirit is in fact a duty required of those who know as well as those who seek the truth. Now, this is the intent of those who are involved in what has come to be known as the “RESTORATION MOVEMENT”.

And it is sad indeed to see those who claim to continue to be a part of this great endeavor who are running headlong back into the very sectarian and denominational errors that we have for so many years endeavored to escape! And these persons will never be satisfied until they actually restructure this original noble effort of faithful Christians to restore the actual teaching of the doctrine of Christ in the place of the doctrines and commandments of men. Sadly they seek to accomplish this by leading as many as possible back into egregious errors of the self contradictory human creeds of various sectarian denominations into a sectarian denomination with a human creed of it’s very own and status second to none in the denominational world. And I pray that God will FORBID it. And I warn all who are headed in that direction that they are turning away from Christ in the process.

WE are Christians under the Lord Jesus Christ following the teaching of Christ given through the apostles of Christ and first century Christians who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. And we will not be moved from this place nor will allow anyone to create the false perception that we are, in any way whatsoever, denominational, sectarian or willingly divided from our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

Then you say:

“ Now according to your reasoning, those Christians are in serious error for remaining in a church that is not a part of our fellowship... is that right?”

Now, what we have expressed above and in our previous post is not “our reasoning” but is the simple truth taught in the word of God. And we have not said a single word that would imply that anyone is in “serious error” “for remaining in a church” that is not as you say “a part of our fellowship” by which you seem to mean a part of what you have termed the “RESTORATION MOVEMENT”. If this is the way you understood our words you are far, very far, from right. We have clearly stated that those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ but are “affiliated” with and thereby support those who teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ, which ALL sectarian and denominational groups in fact do, they are in error. They are in error as a consequence of believing, supporting and teaching,, that which is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. (Romans 16:17; 2 John 9- 11; Gal. 1:8,9). Not because they are not a part of what you call “our fellowship” which is a phrase that only a sectarian could use. For you see there is only one “fellowship” that is acceptable. And that “fellowship” is with Christ and all those who are in fact in the fellowship of Christ. Those who are not in the fellowship of Christ are very much in error. And this fellowship is essential to our eternal salvation (1 John 1:7-11;Heb. 5:8,9) WE have not ever called upon anyone to seek “our fellowship” over the fellowship of anyone else. Instead we have urged and encouraged not only ourselves but also all others to come into the fellowship of Christ our Lord. None who teach, believe and practice that which is contrary to the truth of the doctrine of Christ can be in fellowship with Him. For this reason the sectarians cannot and are not in fellowship with our Lord.

We cannot know, but it is indeed quite likely that there are groups of people in this world who have obeyed the gospel of Christ and are walking in the light of truth. And that are humbly serving Christ that have never heard of any of us in what you call the “RM”. But they are in the same fellowship as us for they too, because they follow Christ in truth, are in the fellowship of Christ along with us.

Then you asked:

“ Another question, isn't the RM a sect like many others?”

If you are talking about the same “restoration Movement” that we know about the answer is an emphatic NO and I would defy anyone to prove, from the scriptures, otherwise. But if you are talking about those who have sought to turn the Restoration Movement into nothing more than one of the “oldest” and most successful “ecumenical” movements in American History my answer would be a sad and horrifying but unqualified YES! But I have nothing to do with those who have sought to revise the history of the Restoration Movement and redefine it’s original intentions and to nullify it’s current success! In fact, you may not even be aware of the current successes among us but there are many and they continue by God’s grace in the area where we live and work.

There is nothing “sectarian” about the idea of returning to the New Testament and being Christians ONLY and living in the fellowship of Christ our Lord and restoring our erring brethren to the truth and converting those among the sects who have never obeyed the gospel to Christ. And you could not find anything sectarian about it if your life depended upon it.

But if you are talking about those who have gone back into denominationalism even to the point of teaching the same old errors from which we have long since escaped. Then you are talking about those who are no longer a part of the “restoration Movement” though they continue to falsely claim a part in it. But they are instead a part of an effort by Satan to reverse the impact of the actual Restoration Movement upon his deceptions. For he just cannot bear to see the great nullifying effect that the Restoration Movement has had upon his efforts to deceive which came during the great apostasy. Those errors remain to this day only being diminished and resisted by those teach and preach the gospel of Christ and faithfully follow the doctrine of Christ. Therefore Satan has sent his servants into the movement to destroy it from within. But let us not be deceived. These persons are no longer a part of the “Restoration Movement”. Instead they are involved in a “Restoration Movement” designed to “restore” and return as many as possible back to the pathetic errors from which their fathers had escaped! And yes, those are indeed as much a sect as any others and we call upon them to “return” to the truth and come out of that sectarian error into the “marvelous light” and fellowship of the Son of God and His saints. (1 John 1:9- 11; 2 Peter 2:9).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 19, 2001

Lee, what about other groups who do believe like we believe, but are not a part of the RM? For example, one I know- if you match their doctrine and church structure next to ours it is the same. The only difference is their stance on the spiritual gifts, which is Pentecostal.

Your rhetoric, often indicates that you believe that only the RM is right, and we are the only ones obeying the gospel. Which to that I say is not true.

-- Anonymous, October 19, 2001

Brother ADK:

We are responding to you with the assumption that you are able to read and comprehend our responses. But it appears that you either cannot read what we have said or you are deliberately ignoring it. For you have asked:

“Lee, what about other groups who do believe like we believe, but are not a part of the RM?”

If you had read our previous post you would have seen the following words:

“If this is the way you understood our words you are far, very far, from right. We have clearly stated that those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ but are “affiliated” with and thereby support those who teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ, which ALL sectarian and denominational groups in fact do, they are in error. They are in error as a consequence of believing, supporting and teaching,, that which is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. (Romans 16:17; 2 John 9- 11; Gal. 1:8,9). Not because they are not a part of what you call “our fellowship” which is a phrase that only a sectarian could use. For you see there is only one “fellowship” that is acceptable. And that “fellowship” is with Christ and all those who are in fact in the fellowship of Christ. Those who are not in the fellowship of Christ are very much in error. And this fellowship is essential to our eternal salvation (1 John 1:7-11;Heb. 5:8,9) WE have not ever called upon anyone to seek “our fellowship” over the fellowship of anyone else. Instead we have urged and encouraged not only ourselves but also all others to come into the fellowship of Christ our Lord. None who teach, believe and practice that which is contrary to the truth of the doctrine of Christ can be in fellowship with Him. For this reason the sectarians cannot and are not in fellowship with our Lord.”

Now, it is as obvious as the nose on you face that if “other groups” as you call them “believe like we believe” they would believe the doctrine of Christ. And if they have obeyed the gospel of Christ and believe, obey and practice the teaching of Christ then they are members of the church of Christ and would not by any means be a denomination or a sectarian body following the doctrines and commandments of men. Those who are such are Christians and have no need to change anything. But if they have obeyed the gospel of Christ but are members of some humanly devised organization following the doctrines and commandments of men contrary to the doctrine of Christ. Then they are in error and are to be called out of their errors and encouraged to repent of those errors. (James 5:19,20). And you cannot name a single denomination that does not teach doctrines that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ. Any one that believes and teaches anything contrary to the doctrine of Christ is in danger of death, and that includes we Christians as well as those sectarians. (James 5:19,20). Christ is right and to the extent that we all agree with Him we are right. And from our above quotation you can readily see that this applies to all men not only those who are a part of what you erroneously call “our fellowship”. We are talking about fellowship with Christ. There is one Lord who is the King over ONE Kingdom, which is the Kingdom or church of Christ. (Matt. 16:16- 18; Col. 1:13-18). And only those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ are in that Kingdom. And those who are in that Kingdom should separate themselves from any doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. (2 John 9-11;John 8:32).

WE have no authorization to be separated into contradictory groups following different doctrines, creeds and traditions of men. We are all to be “one in Christ”. (John 17) and it is sinful to be divided into warring “factions” even if we occasionally “cooperate” with one another. (1 Cor. 1:10). There is one Body of Christ and all that have obeyed the gospel of Christ are in that one body. “For there is one body and one spirit even as we are called in one hope of our calling. One LORD, ONE FAITH, one baptism. There is one God the father of all who is above all, through all and in you all. (Eph. 4:4). The above applies only to those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ. (Heb. 5;8,9; Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 4:16-18; 2 Thess. 1;8,9).

Then you say:

“ For example, one I know- if you match their doctrine and church structure next to ours it is the same.”

You see, with this comment you betray your complete inability to escape from sectarian language. No one should “match their doctrine” with the doctrines of others. They should match their doctrines with the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. If their doctrine does not match the doctrine of Christ then they have separated themselves from Christ and are therefore sectarian. Thus, we are not concerned about anyone’s “doctrine and structure” being the “same as ours” but rather that everyone’s doctrine, including ours, be the same as the doctrine of Christ. If we find that anything we believe or teach is contrary to the doctrine of Christ we must change it to harmonize with His blessed truth. And the same is true with everyone else. So, we do not compare sectarian organizations or anyone else including ourselves with anything other than the word of God. When such comparison is made, in every case, all sectarian and denominational groups, including the group that you mention, are found wanting. And we have not yet been shown any way in which we are out of harmony with the doctrine of Christ but we are ever willing to be shown so that we can correct any errors that we proven to be making so that we can stay walk with Christ. But so far you have failed to even attempt to show where we are not in harmony with the doctrine of Christ. In fact, you do not even so much as MENTION the doctrine of Christ in your responses to us though we have now mentioned it and referenced it in our every post.

You then offer evidence in your own words that the group of which you speak differs with the doctrine of Christ as follows:

“ The only difference is their stance on the spiritual gifts, which is Pentecostal.”

This difference that you mention is a major difference between this group’s teaching concerning “spiritual gifts” and the doctrine of Christ concerning spiritual gifts. For the doctrine of Christ is diametrically opposed to the nonsense of Pentecostalism. And Pentecostalism is very much opposed to the truth of the gospel of Christ and those who follow this nonsense are being lead away from Christ our Lord. They are a “sectarian” body that is following the vain and foolish imaginations of their own heart instead of the truth of God’s word concerning spiritual gifts. In other words, they are woefully deceived into believing that they have miraculous gifts from the Holy Spirit. When, in fact, they have never received the Holy Spirit as it was received in accordance with the teaching of Christ concerning how and why it was received in the New Testament which was through the laying on of the apostles hands. (Acts 8:14-24; 19:1-6)

Then you say:

“Your rhetoric, often indicates that you believe that only the RM is right, and we are the only ones obeying the gospel.”

Well, ADK, you cannot find a single word that we have said which could justifiably be called “rhetoric” , now can you? WE have not sought by any means whatsoever to be “rhetorical”. And we challenge you to find one place where we have claimed that only the “RM” is right. WE have said that only the doctrine of Christ is right and only those who follow it are the genuine body or church of Christ. And there are those in the Restoration Movement who are not right, and you are an example of such. And, we do not doubt that we ourselves might be found in error but if we were depending upon you to correct us we would be helpless indeed. But, because we understand that as human beings we can all err we ask that anyone who wishes to point to our error and PROVE to us from the doctrine of Christ that we are in error please do so and we will thank God for it. But you do not even appeal to the word of God. In fact, in your last two post we see not even one reference to God’s word and the doctrine of Christ. If we are in error then show us from the doctrine of Christ that we are in error on anything and we will correct our ways and our teaching to make it harmonize with the doctrine of Christ. But all that you have done thus far is to compare sectarian denominations with the Restoration Movement in some absurd attempt to make them appear to be the “same”! Ha! Even if they were the same, which they most certainly are not, it would not prove that either of them are in harmony with the teaching of Christ which teaching you have not even once referenced. Verily, those who seek to justify themselves by “comparing themselves with themselves” are wasting their time and losing their souls. They should instead seek to “transform” themselves by the “renewing of their minds” (Roams 12:1,2) when they compare what they believe and teach with the truth of the doctrine of Christ our Lord. And this “doctrine of Christ” is the very thing that you do not reference even once. For all you could do is compare one “group” with another “group” in true sectarian fashion but you appear to be afraid to place all groups under the scrutiny of the light of the doctrine of Christ to see if any of them will stand. And you most certainly object to our sound suggestion that all be compared with the doctrine of Christ and that everyone be prepared to change ANYTHING wherein they find that they are opposed to Christ. If we did this denominationalism and sectarianism would be banished from the face of this earth and nothing but the genuine church of Christ would be left adorned as a “bride” waiting for her husband without “spot or wrinkle or any such thing”. (Eph. 5:25,26). May God hasten the day!

You are welcome to examine anything that we Christians have said and if you can prove from the doctrine of Christ that we are in error we will immediately change it and thank you for the correction. And if you had read what we said in our previous post, you would have seen that we stated plainly that there are some in sectarian and denominational bodies who have in fact, contrary to the teaching of the denominations with which they are associated, obeyed the gospel. WE will now quote our words to that effect so that you can be reminded of them. If you are unable to read them yourself then please get some one to read them for you. For if you had read these words you would not have made your above ignorant and uninformed comments. Here is what we said in our previous post as follows:

“Thus, there are Christians in any place where there are persons who have obeyed the gospel of Christ (1 Peter 4:16-18; 2 Thess 1:8,9). And those in the “restoration movement” were at one time “affiliated” with denominations. And as they studied the word of God they began to work their way out of the many errors of sectarianism and return to the pure Christian faith that existed in the days when men were lead directly by the Holy Spirit into all truth. (John 16:13;14:26) and they continued steadfastly in the apostles teaching (Acts 2:42) and have ever since being urging others, of similar circumstance, to come out of the sectarian affiliations and return to the truth and follow Christ and no others. This process continues to this day though you may not be aware of it. Any Christian, as well as any group of Christians, can “stray”, if they are not careful, from the truth and wonder into errors, some of which are grievous and destructive. And any effort to lead such persons to return to the truth is very much an endeavor intended to “restore” them to a right relationship with God. In fact, the very idea of converting people to Christ is just that. It is “reconciling” them to God. A “restoration”, if you will, to their former state of innocence and submission to Him in all things, which existed before sin entered into this world. And such an effort can justly be called a “restoration”. And when one Christian errs from the truth we are taught to “restore such a one”. For Paul says, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” (Galatians 6:1). Those who have actually obeyed the gospel of Christ but remain in the denominations, and I must say that I doubt if there are many such persons, have been “overtaken” in the “fault” of sectarianism and denominationalism (1 Cor. 1:10). And let us not forget to mention the many other “faults” associated with sectarianism, which is the result of the great falling away from the truth that has occurred since the days of the apostles. And we are COMANDED to RESTORE such persons. Thus the current movement among Christians to restore those who have obeyed the gospel among the sects to the truth by calling them out from the sects is scriptural and a divine order from God. And the effort to convert those in the sects who are deceived into believing that they are Christians when in fact they have never obeyed the gospel is also a divine command. (Mark 16:15,16). Such movement to do what God has commanded cannot by any means be called a “sectarian” endeavor nor can it be by any stretch of anyone’s imagination considered “denominational”. It is simply Christians obeying the teachings of Christ who is the head of the body, the church (Col. 1:18). There is nothing denominational or sectarian about it. And James also speaks to this matter. He says, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19,20). This would be, without doubt, a restoration of an erring saint to the truth of God and doing such is to “save a soul from death”! And anyone who sees anything “sectarian” or “denominational” about such an endeavor is just plain ignorant of the very concept of restoration.”

And, in reference to your assertion that we have said that only those in the “RM” are obeying the gospel please read again our words form a previous post above wherein we stated the direct opposite of your assertion. And we quote this for you with the highest hope that you are indeed capable of reading, comprehending and remembering what you have read and that you are not merely trying to deliberately misrepresent us. So far, your record shows that you are simply opposed to us regardless of what we have actually said. But again read the following from us which shows that we firmly believe that there are those who have never heard of us that have obeyed the gospel of Christ. But they did so following the doctrine of Christ and ignoring the doctrines of their particular denomination or sectarian body with whom they might be “affiliated”. We even gave the example of Alexander Campbell, who asked the Baptist Preacher named “Loos” to baptize him for the remission of sins according to the teaching of scripture even though it was contrary to the teaching of the Baptist. These were our words in that regard:

“For there are some Baptist who believe the truth about the fact that baptism is essential to salvation and that one must be baptized for the remission of sins. And there are many people who study the word of God for themselves and seldom listen to their preachers because they can tell from their studies that the preacher himself has not STUDIED. And thus it would be possible for such a person to learn the truth and asked to be baptized according to the teaching that they have learned from their own personal study of the word of God. And thus contrary to rather than from the false teaching and ranting of their preachers who teach lies they willingly seek to do the will of Christ. Even Alexander Campbell himself did this very thing.”

WE then gave another example of one Baptist of which we ourselves are aware who teaches the truth about obeying the gospel of Christ in baptism as follows:

“I have a book written by a man named Beasley who makes very strong scriptural argument that would convince even the false teachers in this forum who deny that baptism is essential that they are miserably wrong about the matter. And he is a Baptist from Great Britain. And I would not doubt for one moment that he was without question baptized for the remission of sins according to the teaching of the inspired word of God in Acts 2:38. I do have my doubts as to whether your friends had that firm conviction and knowledge of the truth when they were baptized. For it is indeed difficult to be “taught wrong and baptized right”. But that depends upon who taught them. For if Christ through His holy word was their teacher we know that they were taught right. But if they followed the doctrine of the Baptist Church they would have never learned the truth.”

Now, we challenge you to give us one single statement that we have made where in we claimed that “only those in the Restoration Movement are the one’s obeying the gospel”! All you have to do is go back and read anything we have written in this forum and simply copy and paste our exact words that cased you to believe that we had ever said any such thing. You know that you cannot find such a statement by us, don’t you? You know why it is that you know that? It is because you have been trying so hard to get us to argue in a way that you are more capable to answer, aren’t you. You cannot answer the arguments that we have made thus far so you make up statements that you can answer, attribute them to us, and then you fail to even argue against them. All you do is say:

“Which to that I say is not true.”

Indeed it is not true that only those who are a part of the restoration movement ever obeyed the gospel. The first century Christians obeyed the gospel and had never hear of anything like a “Restoration Movement”. And if it had not been possible for those who were caught in the quagmire of sectarianism to “obey the gospel” then even those who became a part of the Restoration Movement in its beginning could not have obeyed the gospel! And we have also stated that “ANYWHERE THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED IT IS POSSIBLE FOR PERSONS TO OBEY THE GOSPEL THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A “RESTORATION MOVEMENT”.

But do not be deceived. No one can obey the gospel until they actually hear the gospel preached. And no one who has been taught a “perverted gospel” such as the doctrine of “salvation by faith only” which is being taught among most Baptist and by popular false teachers like Billy Graham can obey the gospel until they learn the truth. And that is what we are doing, Brother. We are teaching them the truth as opposed to error. Billy Graham teaches them that all they have to do is believe in Christ and say the sinner’s prayer and all is well. And we come along and teach these good people the truth that they must REPENT OF SIN (Acts 3:19; Confess Christ (Romans 10:9,10) and be baptized for the remission of sin (Acts 2;38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16).

So, it is quite clear, ADK, that you do not have your facts straight. If you would like to discuss these issues with us then deal with the arguments that we have actually made instead of how you have imagined that we should be making them or as you wish we had made them! It is as clear as a bell that you have taken notice of nothing that we have actually said. And you know it, don’t you?

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Thank you for the response Bro Saffold. I have lurked here from time to time. So in all due respect, I do not know exactly quite understand your answer completely. Do you attend any particular church? For if you do, is it then not a denomination or do you not regard it as such? Thanking you for your response.

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Lee, Satan has blinded your reasoning.... very typical of those of a sectarian group. The RM is a beautiful movement that has lost it's pure message and itself has become a sect like any other. The apostle Paul said "let there be no divisions among you" yet the Rm is a divided group that fights over issues as the Piano and interpretation of scripture.

Lee, there are groups out there who have the exact conviction as we do and follow the complete gospel commands. Just because they do not belong to the RM does not make them evil. Perhaps they do not know of it or they have seen our divided movement and rejected us. Have they rejected Christ? NO. Yet your post implies it. Plus, not every group out there is evil nor disobeys the gospel message. There are some "denominations" who are a voluntary cooperative fellowship in structure and in fact are just like us. Not every denomination is "faith only"- Lee, your post reveal flawed thinking.

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Lee, your post is like a do chasing his tail! It goes nowhere.

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Brother Sezme:

You have said:

“Thank you for the response Bro Saffold. I have lurked here from time to time.”

I appreciate your kindness and you are welcome for the response. I am also very happy to know that you have been “lurking here from time to time” and hope that we will see more of you.

Then you say:

“ So in all due respect, I do not know exactly quite understand your answer completely.”

It is possible to misunderstand in any forum where expression is done in writing. I do not pretend to be talented in the area of writing though I will always do my best to be clear. If I ever say something that you do not understand I will be more than willing, if you will specify just what it is that you do not understand, to clarify as much as possible to clear up any misunderstanding.

Then you asked:

“ Do you attend any particular church?”

I assume that you mean to ask do I worship God with other Christians and the answer to that question is yes. If you can imagine for a moment asking this same question of Phillip the Evangelist who preached the gospel to the Eunuch in Acts the eighth chapter. Or imagine asking this same question of the apostles or any other of the faithful Christians of the New Testament era what do you think would be their reply? They would probably look at you and wonder what in the world you were talking about for there were no “denominations” in their day and when they did begin to divide themselves up according to those who had baptized them the apostle Paul condemned them for it. So, they would either ask you what is a “denomination” and when they learned what it was they would tell you that there is only one church and it was the church of Christ (Eph. 1:22,23; 24; 4:4; Matt. 16:16-18). And they would simply tell you that they worship with other Christians that follow the doctrine of Christ. Or to put it another way. Ask yourself what “denomination the apostle Paul belonged to? What denomination did the apostle James belong to? Or what denomination did the apostle Peter belong to? Or to put the question in your terminology “what particular church did they attend”? When you have the answer to that question you will have the answer to your question put to me. For I worship with the same “church” or a congregation of the same church that the apostles Paul, Peter, James, John and all of the early first century Christians worshiped with. It is the church that you read about in your Bible. There is only one there and it is not a “denomination” and all that have obeyed the gospel and have thereby become Christians are members of it and they worship Christ together in it. You will not find an acceptable denomination in the word of God and those who are members of various denominations are disobeying God by being members of such. (1 Cor. 1:10).

Then you ask:

“ For if you do, is it then not a denomination or do you not regard it as such?”

The apostles worshiped God what denomination did they belong to? Did they regard the church of Christ as a “denomination”? The early church worshipped God together on Sunday morning. What denomination did they belong to? Did they regard the church of Christ as a denomination? No, there are no acceptable denominations found in the New Testament. There is only the church. It is the one church or body of Christ, which was made up of all Christians who were following the one, and only doctrine of Christ. This is what they were and this is what I am and will ever be. I refuse to belong to any denomination for to do so is to be in direct violation of the command of Christ. (1 Cor. 1:10)_. I worship with other Christians who are also refusing to be made “denominational” by those who insist that we must be a denomination when they know that the early Christians never belonged to a denomination and were acceptable in the sight of God without ever doing so. It has long been my intent to be a Christian while I leave and go to heaven when I die. All admit that no one must belong to any of the various denominations in order to go to heaven. Therefore I refuse to belong to anything or any one but Christ. I have never joined any denomination and will never do so. The very same thing that made me a Christian also made me automatically and by the same process a member of the “house of God which is the church of living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15).

I am happy to respond to you, Sezme, and I hope that you understand what I have said above. If you seek to understand what I believe, practice and teach all you need do is read the New Testament. I am what they were and I believe what they believed and I teach what they taught and worship as they worshipped. They were Christians only who did not belong to any denomination. I am Christian only that does not belong to any denomination. They believe the teachings of Christ given by the Holy Spirit through the apostles and inspired writers of the New Testament. I believe the same teachings of Christ. They taught the doctrine of Christ and contended earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints (2 John 9-11; Jude 3). I teach the doctrine of Christ and contend earnestly for THE FAITH once for all delivered to the saints. They were all members of the church of Christ (Romans 16:16; Col. 1:18;24; Matt. 16:16-18). This is all that they were and this is all that I am.

You cannot find a Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, or Episcopalian Church in the Bible in any place. It makes one wonder just whose idea it was that these denominations should even exist. It most assuredly was not God’s idea for he never mentions a single one of them, does he? Look through the New Testament and see how many of the “denominations” that exists today that you can find there. I can tell you now that the answer is ZERO my friend. ZERO. Think about that fact and let it sink in for a while and ask yourself just what justification there is from the word of God for any denomination to exist without any authority or word form Christ that they should exist.

So, I am a Christian who worships with other Christians without belong to any denomination. And this is what is taught in the New Testament. Those who are Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and other various denominations teaching differing doctrines and commandments of men found in the human creeds of men. These worship according to the dictates of their own hearts with little or no regard to the commands of Christ our Lord are the ones who are out of step with God in this matter.

And if you believe that what they are doing is in harmony with the scriptures you may want to go to the scriptures and see if you can find a single word form God that teaches them to do these things. You will not find a single one. Think about this. How is it that we have all of these sectarian and denominational organizations today all teaching different doctrines, creeds and dogmas that cannot be supported or found in the word of God? And when you read the New Testament you do not find any of these denominations and you find that their doctrines do not even harmonize with the doctrine of Christ found in the New Testament. Don’t you think that a sincere person should be greatly concerned about this important fact? There were no Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians etc. in the scriptures. No person, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in New Testament times was ever guided by inspiration to join any of the denominations so common among us today. So, the question arises, where does anyone derive authorization from God to join such today? It is a good question and I hope you will spend some time giving it some serious thought.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Brother ADK:

You have said:

“Lee, Satan has blinded your reasoning.... very typical of those of a sectarian group.”

Well, ADK, We would not want to be “blinded” in our reasoning now would we? But the problem is that a man is not blind just because another asserts that he is blind, now is he? An old African American Christian once told me, “theys can calls you a dog but you don’ts has to bark”! Ha! It is your assertion that we have been “blinded by Satan”. That is a fine assertion, coming from a man who has seldom if ever even attempted to prove what he says by the word of God. But now we ask you, if you really care for our poor blinded condition to PROVE that we have been blinded by Satan. Why, you can’t even offer the slightest amount of evidence that we are even blind much less that Satan has done the deed! We would like very much to see what evidence you can offer to substantiate this wild and irresponsible assertion you have made. If this is a demonstration of your ability to “reason” we do indeed have just cause to question your “eyesight”.

And we do agree with you however that it is very typical that Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are members of sectarian groups. We are happy to see that you admit that sectarianism is the result of blindness to the truth. This is definitely a fact and yet it is you that say they have not rejected Christ. So, you are saying that they are merely blind Christians. They are “walking in the light” (1 John 1:7-9) but they are BLIND AS A BAT! Such hogwash is hardly worthy of serious consideration!

Then you say:

“ The RM is a beautiful movement that has lost it's pure message and itself has become a sect like any other.”

Brethren, notice this “pattern of false teachers”! Ha! They are always kind, complementary and sweet in order to be ultimately destructive. Notice that our friend ADK says, “The RM is a beautiful movement”. Now wasn’t that a “sweet thing to say” and doesn’t that make you feel all warm am fuzzy inside! Ha! And once you feel good he says, “that has lost its pure message”. Well, he is not helping with the “message” by taunting and supporting denominationalism, which was contrary to the “pure message” that they sought to return to. For you see those who were originally in this movement had no “message” of their own to convey. They sought the pure message that God had delivered through the Holy Spirit speaking in the Apostles and they sought to remove the rubbish of thousands of years of denominationalism and sectarianism that had for so long hidden the pure message of the word of God. And Brother ADK could not prove that this pure message of the word of God has ever been LOST if his life depended upon it. That message has ever been there for those who are willing to go to the New Testament to read it, believe it and obey it. That message is the gospel of Christ. It can be ignored, and it can be disobeyed but because it is the message of God it will never be lost. And those of us who have long since given up denominationalism and sectarianism and returned to simple New Testament Christianity have not lost anything and no matter how much ADK and others like him want to FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to be sectarians we still refuse to do so. And those who have become sectarians have completely abandoned the principles of the very “Restoration Movement” that he speaks of and are therefore no longer a part of it.

But those of us who have returned to the New Testament are more concerned with the doctrine of Christ that any Movement, Restoration or otherwise. And the leaders of the great restoration movement would be ashamed of the kind of talk that causes brethren to be more interested in a “movement” than in the truth of God’s word. Christians are not sectarian and they cannot be denominational and remain faithful to Christ. And then notice how he says in a destructive way, that we are a “sect like any other”. But he does not prove it, now does he? SO just because he calls us a “dog” albeit politely, we do not have to bark, now do we? He wants us to accept denominationalism and thus he wants us to admit that we are such. But we want him to PROVE IT first. He would rather do it with out offering any proof. This is much easier for a man with such “superior reasoning” isn’t it? You will notice Brethren that ADK has done nothing more than assert that we are a sect, but he does not prove it now does he? He does not even bother to tell us what we are a “section” of.

Then he says:

“ The apostle Paul said "let there be no divisions among you" yet the Rm is a divided group that fights over issues as the Piano and interpretation of scripture.”

Now we have arrived at some facts. Indeed, there is among us that same sectarian spirit that we condemn in not only others but ourselves but such offer no proof that the entire movement and all that are related to it supports and promotes sectarianism. WE condemn it in all, including ourselves. But he does not say that there are some with the sectarian spirit among us. He says the “RESTORATION MOVEMENT” itself is sectarian. This is what he cannot prove. The entire movement was an effort to return to the New Testament and be Christians only without belonging to any denomination or sect. And this is still the thrust of the idea. And because we have not always succeeded in our attempts does not mean that we have completely given up on them or that we now accept sectarianism as being good, right and necessary. WE continue to condemn it as much as ever and that condemnation is for everyone, including those, like our Brother ADK, who so willingly embraces it. Now, there are those of us who have been Christians for a long time that are not sectarian at all.

But also notice this brethren. This brother does not what us to “fight over interpretation of scripture”. Can he show us that fighting over the correct interpretation of the word of God is “denominational” or “sectarian” in nature? Can he even show from the word of God that such fighting is WRONG? In fact, we are commanded to “study to show thyself approved unto God handling aright the word of Truth”. (2 Tim 2:15). And are also told to “contend (from a Greek term meaning “BRAWL” i.e. fight) for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.” (Jude 3). And Paul said that he was “set for the DEFENSE (fighting again) of the gospel” (Phil. 1:17- 19). Was Paul a sectarian because he was willing to fight over interoperations of scripture? And even Peter warn those who read some of Paul’s writing that they twisted them to their own destruction. “As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16). And Paul even on one occasion withstood Peter to the face because he spoke not accurately according to the gospel. Did this make Paul a sectarian? And the fact that we disagree with one another and we fight over our disagreements does that in and of itself make us “sectarian”? No! It is when we separate ourselves and go out and start a new “denomination”. One based upon and completely a single leader, a single idea or a creed which might contain a group of ideas written by a number of people and use it to keep ourselves separate in all respects from our brothers that we become sectarian. And when we tack a name onto this group we make it a denomination. But we are Christians, members of the church of Christ and we wear no name but Christ. We have not developed a creed but stay solely with what is taught in the doctrine of Christ. This is far from sectarian.

Then you say:

“Lee, there are groups out there who have the exact conviction as we do and follow the complete gospel commands.”

Notice that Brother ADK cannot name one such group for us Brethren, now can he? WE have asked him to do so but he will not do it because he just does not know of any and he does not want us to be able to openly show how they are not like the doctrine of Christ at all. We follow the doctrine of Christ. If they were like us they would do the same. So, do tell us brother ADK just who these people are that you pretend to know and can prove that they are like us in that they actually follow the doctrine of Christ. Then we will examine them and decide for ourselves whether you are telling the TRUTH. For we know you and are aware of your ways. So, be bold now and tell us who these “groups” (notice Brethren he uses the plural form as if there are many of them). But we have only asked him to name ONE of them. We shall see if he will do it or not.

Are you completely ignorant? How many times have we said this to you?

“And, in reference to your assertion that we have said that only those in the “RM” are obeying the gospel please read again our words form a previous post above wherein we stated the direct opposite of your assertion. And we quote this for you with the highest hope that you are indeed capable of reading, comprehending and remembering what you have read and that you are not merely trying to deliberately misrepresent us. So far, your record shows that you are simply opposed to us regardless of what we have actually said. But again read the following from us which shows that we firmly believe that there are those who have never heard of us that have obeyed the gospel of Christ. But they did so following the doctrine of Christ and ignoring the doctrines of their particular denomination or sectarian body with whom they might be “affiliated”. We even gave the example of Alexander Campbell, who asked the Baptist Preacher named “Loos” to baptize him for the remission of sins according to the teaching of scripture even though it was contrary to the teaching of the Baptist. These were our words in that regard: “For there are some Baptist who believe the truth about the fact that baptism is essential to salvation and that one must be baptized for the remission of sins. And there are many people who study the word of God for themselves and seldom listen to their preachers because they can tell from their studies that the preacher himself has not STUDIED. And thus it would be possible for such a person to learn the truth and asked to be baptized according to the teaching that they have learned from their own personal study of the word of God. And thus contrary to rather than from the false teaching and ranting of their preachers who teach lies they willingly seek to do the will of Christ. Even Alexander Campbell himself did this very thing.”

WE then gave another example of one Baptist of which we ourselves are aware who teaches the truth about obeying the gospel of Christ in baptism as follows:

“I have a book written by a man named Beasley who makes very strong scriptural argument that would convince even the false teachers in this forum who deny that baptism is essential that they are miserably wrong about the matter. And he is a Baptist from Great Britain. And I would not doubt for one moment that he was without question baptized for the remission of sins according to the teaching of the inspired word of God in Acts 2:38. I do have my doubts as to whether your friends had that firm conviction and knowledge of the truth when they were baptized. For it is indeed difficult to be “taught wrong and baptized right”. But that depends upon who taught them. For if Christ through His holy word was their teacher we know that they were taught right. But if they followed the doctrine of the Baptist Church they would have never learned the truth.”

And we notice also that you do not give us any examples of those who “have exactly the same convictions that we have”. In you last attempt to give an example the best you could do was to mention some Pentecostal group” which is diametrically opposed to the doctrine of Christ and have absolutely nothing in common with Christians in this doctrine. If that is you example of those who have “exactly the same convictions” as us Christians then you are woefully and pathetically mistaken.

Then you say:

“ Just because they do not belong to the RM does not make them evil.”

And you cannot find one single place where we have ever said a failure to be a part of the restoration movement makes anyone evil. WE have said over and over again that no one needs to belong to any movement restoration or otherwise to be a Christian. We have shown that the idea of restoring an erring Brother is a Christian thing to do but no one has said that one must be a part of a “movement” to do so. You see, again you try to make it appear that we have said something that we have never said. Now this is what we call LYING where we come from. In fact, you sound very much like another LIAR that we have had discussions with in this forum in the past who has been gone for some time now. This was his pattern. He ignored everything that we said and then ascribed things that we had not said to us and then argued against those things. He did this because he was completely incapable of dealing with the scriptural arguments that we gave. And it does indeed appear that you do this for the same reason. For you have completely ignored all of our arguments.

Then you say:

“ Perhaps they do not know of it or they have seen our divided movement and rejected us”

How many times do you have to be told that we are not seeking for others to “accept us” we are urging them to obey the gospel of Christ and be faithful to Christ our Lord.

Then you ask:

“Have they rejected Christ?”

Yes, they have, but not because they have nothing to do with any Restoration Movement. They have rejected Christ in that they consciously reject the doctrine of Christ. Take your example of the Pentecostal Group. They have rejected the truth of the doctrine of Christ on Spiritual Gifts by deceiving themselves into believing that they have the Holy Spirit in miraculous manifestations today even though they know that such is a deliberate lie. And it is also contrary to the doctrine of Christ. And you can specify any of the denominations and I can show you how they have rejected the doctrine of Christ by teaching that which is contrary to it. But you refuse to specify any denomination because you know that we can show that they are teaching contrary to the doctrine of Christ. So, you purposefully seek to be vague and say that there are groups out that that are “exactly like” Christians who follow the doctrine of Christ. We ask you to be more specific and NAME ONE. Of course you say they have not rejected Christ but you have not even specified who you are talking about so how can we believe what you say. Prove to us that they have not rejected Christ by specifically stating who you are talking about. You tell us who you are talking about and we will examine them and see if they are following the teachings of Christ. Are you willing to do that or do you just want us to “take your word for it”?

Then you say:

“Plus, not every group out there is evil nor disobeys the gospel message.”

And no one has said that “every group out there is evil” nor have we said that they all “disobeys the gospel message”. We have said that those who teach the doctrine of Salvation by faith only are teaching a perverted gospel. And those who have learned a perverted gospel cannot obey the gospel of Christ. We have said that some in those groups have read their Bibles for themselves and have actually obeyed the gospel but they must come out of these denominations that are teaching a pervert gospel. For none can support such a thing for those who teach a perverted gospel are to be anathema. (Gal. 1:8,9). Most denominations do in fact teach a perverted gospel and we have mentioned several of them by name.

And we did not say that all of them are this way because we do not know ALL of them. But most of them are teaching contrary to the doctrine of Christ and we specifically named the major ones of which we were speaking such as Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian etc. And the very act of consciously being a denomination is in direct violation of 1 Cor. 1:10.

Then you again say, without even attempting to answer our previous reply to your same nonsense in our previous post as follows:

There are some "denominations" who are a voluntary cooperative fellowship in structure and in fact are just like us.”

Again you do not tell us which one’s are you talking about and we have also reminded you that we are not seeking to compare anyone with “US” but rather every one with the doctrine of Christ, including ourselves. And if any of us are out of harmony with the doctrine of Christ then we should correct our way. And for this reason we ask you to be specific and state which denominations or sectarian bodies out there are you talking about so that we can examine their doctrines in the light of God’s word. And then we can see if there is any truth to your nonsense and whether they are really in harmony with the doctrine of Christ and are therefore like we are or not. And if you have any way in which you believe that we are teaching contrary to the doctrine of Christ then, be specific and we will see if we need correction. But to just state without offering any evidence whatsoever that many denominations are “just like us” is meaningless hogwash that has nothing practical that can be done with it or even reasoned from it. It is plain useless, even if it were true. Which you have now asserted three times and have yet even once to attempt to prove that it is the truth.

Then you say:

“ Not every denomination is "faith only"- Lee, your post reveal flawed thinking.”

No one said that all denominations are “faith only” ADK (or whoever you really are. Do notice brethren how false teachers seek to HIDE themselves. Ha! It is funny isn’t it? But we know this one don’t we?). Most of them are and those who are not are often hopelessly and pathetically Calvinistic. And most of them are in some way teaching contrary to the doctrine of Christ. And I admit, As I have from the beginning that there may be some out there who have obeyed the gospel of Christ and are Christians without belonging to a denomination whom I do not know about. Anywhere the word of God has gone there can be Christians. But any Christian who is a member of a denomination or is sectarian is disobeying God for we are indeed told “let there be no divisions among you” (1 Cor. 1:10). And that statement applies to anyone whether they are in or out of any movement Restoration or otherwise. WE seek to be Christians only and to return to following the doctrine of Christ alone without adding in the doctrines and commandments of men. Most of the denominations of our day reject this faithful and true notion and brother “ADK” (ha!) does cannot prove otherwise. Notice how he is not only hiding himself but he is also hiding the specifics of the so-called denomination that he is talking about. We know his tactics quite well. Beware of such men brethren who seek to “creep in unawares”. Read the book of Jude such men have been clearly depicted there. And ask yourself the question why Brother ADK does not want to reveal himself to us? He is hiding for a reason, isn’t he?

You say, Brother ADK, that our thinking is “flawed”. But where have you proven that it is “flawed”. What evidence do you offer? Are we to believe that it is true just because you say it is? I think not. Our readers in this forum are used to hearing evidence. SO, what proof do you have that our reasoning is flawed? For if it is we most certainly would like to correct it. But we cannot be corrected by mere assertions without proof. For we are told “prove all things and hold fast to that which is good”.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Brother ADK:

You have said:

“Lee, your post is like a do chasing his tail! It goes nowhere.”

We are not sure but we think that you meant to say, “Lee, your post is like a dog’s tail! It goes nowhere.”

Well, that is a fine assertion but where is the proof that such is the truth. Surely you would not expect us to believe such without having evidence that it is really true. And you are welcome to that opinion, even if you cannot prove it to be the truth. But if you expect our readers to believe that nonsense you will have to do better than merely asserting it and you know it don’t you?

And even when the dog’s tail goes around it goes exactly where the “old dog” wants it to go and it accomplishes the purpose for which he is “chasing it”. For usually he kills the “flea” that has been “hiding” in his fur for some time. One less flea is the result of his effort and it will be the result of ours as well. For we will be eventually rid yet one more deceiver when we are done with this discussion as we were when we were finished with other discussions in this forum. So, hiding will not help you, Brother ADK.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 22, 2001

Lee you state: "Yes, they have, but not because they have nothing to do with any Restoration Movement. They have rejected Christ in that they consciously reject the doctrine of Christ. Take your example of the Pentecostal Group. They have rejected the truth of the doctrine of Christ on Spiritual Gifts by deceiving themselves into believing that they have the Holy Spirit in miraculous manifestations today even though they know that such is a deliberate lie. And it is also contrary to the doctrine of Christ."

Can you prove that because a person is "filled with the Spirit" that he has rejected the doctrine of Christ? No you cannot. Nor can you explain the true role of spiritual gifts for the believer today! Why do I say so- because it is clear and evident that you reject them (being the "supernatural gifts" ) as for Christians today. You believe that those who claim such gifts as being LIARS. Yet you ignore the scripture that clearly states "Therefore you do not lack any spritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus CHrist to be revealed" (ICor. 1:7). Paul indicates that not only the Christians in Corinth do not lack any spritual gift but those in generations beyond will not either until Christ returns.

Lee, I have been the gift of tongues and I use it in my worship with the Lord daily. I believe that they (the gifts of I Cor 12) are active for those Christians who desire them. I also, am an associate pastor within the Assemblies of God- which doctrinally is truth from the Bible. We do not teach doctrines made by men nor are we "LIARS", as you so lovingly put it. In fact, we teach the full gospel given by Christ and the apostles. We teach truths such as the plan of salvation that is identical to the RM.

Please Lee before you shoot off your mouth and are quick to label someone and make false assumptions, find out all the facts. Lee, biblically you are full of false assumptions. You cannot prove that the gifts are not for Christians today. I have reread the posts concerning the issue that you have battled with others and what I see is that you fail to realize that it is an assumption on your part that the gifts have ceased. There is not any biblical "thus saith the Lord" nor is there any definitive proof.

-- Anonymous, October 23, 2001

Lee, before you call me a Liar concerning my relationship with the RM, I was raised in the RM and still consider myself a part of it- even though I am ministering in a different group.

-- Anonymous, October 23, 2001

Brother ADK:

You have said:

“Lee, before you call me a Liar concerning my relationship with the RM, I was raised in the RM and still consider myself a part of it- even though I am ministering in a different group.”

No one has called you a liar “concerning your relationship with the RM”. Instead you are lying about speaking in tongues and miraculous gifts. You do not have the gift of tongues as we read about in the New Testament and every time you are asked to prove it you refuse to even attempt to do so. Those who had this gift in New Testament times did not have to argue about it to anyone. They demonstrated that they had this gift. (Acts 2:1-4; 1Cor. 2:4). You claim that you have the Holy Spirit in it miraculous manifestations and we challenged you to demonstrate or PROVE that such is the case. You failed miserably to do so. Therefore, you are lying about having such powers unless you can prove it.

We have already proven once that you were a liar and anyone wanting to seethe evidence need only read the thread entitled “Do you allow emotions in the worship” in the archives can see plainly how you deliberately lied to us. And I refer our readers to that discussion.

You are too late, ADK. You have already told a lie and I have already caught you in it and exposed you for it. And it does not matter to me who you are “affiliated” with or how you were raised. When you tell a lie we will expose you for it and call you a liar because you are guilty of having lied. And we will refer our readers to the archives where they can find ample evidence of your pattern of lies.

Therefore, ADK, the first time you lied to us we exposed your lie and called you a liar. And we have done it ever since and will not stop doing it until you stop lying. We did not apologize because you without question lied to us then and you have done so again. And we will not apologize now because you continue to tell deliberate lies. If you do not wish to be called a liar then repent of the lies you have told thus far and stop telling lies in the present and you will not receive such an appellation from me. But every time you lie I will not only expose your lie but I will call you a liar. And there is just nothing in the world you can do to stop it, now is there?

And in your case we will persist because we know who you are and what you teach. You are teaching that which is contrary to the doctrine of Christ and we will resist you so long as that is the case.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2001

Brother ADK:

You have said:

“Can you prove that because a person is "filled with the Spirit" that he has rejected the doctrine of Christ?”

I have never tried to prove that a person “filled with the spirit” has rejected the doctrine of Christ. Instead I have proven conclusively that a person who claims to be “filled with the spirit” when in fact he is not “filled with the Holy Spirit” has rejected the teaching of Christ because such a person is either a deliberate liar or deluded. But in either case he has rejected the doctrine of Christ.

Then you say:

“Nor can you explain the true role of spiritual gifts for the believer today!”

We have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that none of the believers today have the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit in our discussion of that matter in other threads including the one we had in the thread entitled “Do you allow emotions in the worship”.

Then you say:

“ Why do I say so- because it is clear and evident that you reject them (being the "supernatural gifts”) as for Christians today.”

WE do not reject them, Brother ADK. WE have never been offered them and neither have you. God has not given any of us, including you, the miraculous gifts of the spirit, which was, received by the lying on of the apostle’s hands. (Acts 8:14-24; 19:1-6). And we have asked you to demonstrate that you have these gifts and you continue to refuse to do so. And unless you can demonstrate that you have these gifts it is sheer nonsense for you to claim to have them.

Then you say:

“ You believe that those who claim such gifts as being LIARS.”

We have proved that you have lied about having those gifts. But we are aware that some are merely deluded either by themselves or others concerning this matter and we do not consider them to be deliberate liars.

Then you say:

“Yet you ignore the scripture that clearly states "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed" (ICor. 1:7).”

We have not ever “ignored” this scripture. We have stated more than once that this passage was written to Corinth, which was a group of Christians who in fact had these gifts. It was not written to those, like yourself and ourselves, that has never received these gifts.

But you say of these scriptures:

“ Paul indicates that not only the Christians in Corinth do not lack any spiritual gift but those in generations beyond will not either until Christ returns”

Paul says no such thing. He says nothing whatsoever concerning “generations beyond” you cannot find the words “generations beyond in this passage or any of its context if your life depended upon it. All he says is that “you” (Corinthians) did not lack any spiritual gifts “as you (Corinthians) eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus”. We do not know if he means to say as they wait until they see Christ at death or until they see him at his coming but in either case it was the Corinthians to which he was speaking. These actually had spiritual gifts and such powers were “demonstrated” among them. (1 Cor. 2:4,5). These powers have never been demonstrate among us, especially by men like you who do nothing more than CLAIM to have such powers but cannot demonstrate that you actually have them because of the simple fact that you do not have them.

Then you say:

“Lee, I have been the gift of tongues and I use it in my worship with the Lord daily.”

This is not what you originally claimed, now is it. You originally said that you never had such a gift but that you believed in them. But now you expect us to believe that you have the gift of tongues but you are not willing to prove it by demonstrating those powers as Paul did. (1 Cor. 2:4,5).

Then you say:

“ I believe that they (the gifts of I Cor 12) are active for those Christians who desire them.”

Well we know what you “believe” but we are more interested in what you can PROVE. For the scriptures say, “prove all things hold fast to that which is true”. You have failed miserably at ever occasion when we have asked you to prove that these gifts are “active for those Christians that desire them”. There are no Christians, including ourselves that would not desire such gifts” if they were for us today. Yet we do not have them and they are not active with either you or us. If you say they are active with you then we would like to see them demonstrated. If you cannot demonstrate that they are active then you are not able to prove your assertion. And since it cannot be proven to be the truth then we are not to accept it as true and are to reject it.

Then you say:

“ I also, am an associate pastor within the Assemblies of God- which doctrinally is truth from the Bible.”

Just because someone claims to be in the “Assembly of God” does not mean that they are in the “ecclesia” or church of God found in the New Testament. And if they are teaching doctrine co9ntrary to the New Testament, such as Pentecostalism, they are not following Christ. They are following instead their own vain imaginations and deceptions of those who hunger for power in opposition to the precepts of truth.

Then you say:

“ We do not teach doctrines made by men nor are we "LIARS", as you so lovingly put it.”

We do not know why you say we are so “loving” when the truth is that you think we do not love. Are you lying to us again? But we agree with the inspired apostle Paul who said, “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.” (Romans 3:4). And we agree with the apostle John that if a man says one thing and does the opposite of what he claims he is a liar. “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” (1 John 4:20). If a man claims to love God but he in fact hates his brother he is a liar. And if a man claims to have miraculous powers from the Holy Spirit but he cannot demonstrate them by actually exercising them then he is a liar. And our Lord Jesus Christ knew that certain men were liars and he said so. He said, “Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.” (John 8:55) And he called the Pharisees, lovingly, liars as follows: “Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44).

And you do teach “doctrines made by men” because you teach them that you have miraculous powers from God when in fact you do not have such powers. And such a doctrine does not come from God, it is from the imaginations of deluded and deceiving men of which you are one.

Then you say:

“ In fact, we teach the full gospel given by Christ and the apostles.”

Well, that is a fine assertion but where is the proof of it? If you teach men that God has given men the ability to speak in languages that they have never studied or other miraculous powers from the Holy Spirit. When in fact they do not have such powers and cannot demonstrate (1 Cor. 2:4,5) that they have such powers then you are teaching a perverted gospel. Then you say:

“ We teach truths such as the plan of salvation that is identical to the RM.”

Well, we thank God when anyone teaches the truth about how one is to become a Christian. But we are not pleased when they teach lies deluding them into believing that they have miraculous powers from the Holy Spirit when it is nothing more than a deliberate lie or a self delusion. And this is what you are doing. You do not have such powers and proof of it is the simple fact that you are unable to demonstrate such powers.

Then you say:

“Please Lee before you shoot off your mouth and are quick to label someone and make false assumptions, find out all the facts.”

You have not demonstrated that the facts we have related thus far from the word of God “false assumptions”. This is a task that you are unwilling or afraid to even tackle. In fact, you have done nothing more than ignore the facts that we presented. But, if you are willing to prove that we are not aware of the “facts” we are willing to listen. But just merely asserting such is not sufficient.

Then you say:

“ Lee, biblically you are full of false assumptions.”

Well that is a fine assertion and an assumption as well. But where is the proof that it is the truth?

Then you say:

“ You cannot prove that the gifts are not for Christians today.”

We have done it more than once in this forum and we did it in our last discussion with you in the thread entitled “Do you allow emotions in the worship” in the archives. And we did it in several other threads as well and our readers can go to threads related to this subject and see it for themselves.

But, what you have never proven is that you have these gifts in any fashion whatsoever, You simply claim them but you cannot demonstrate that you have them, now can you?

Then you said:

“ I have reread the posts concerning the issue that you have battled with others and what I see is that you fail to realize that it is an assumption on your part that the gifts have ceased.”

Well, we recommend that you take up the specific arguments that we have made and try to do what you failed to even attempt before and what no others have done and answer them. The others never tried to answer them either. And if you wish to discuss this subject in detail then we will start a new thread for that purpose because this matter is not related to the subject of this thread.

Then you say:

“ There is not any biblical "thus saith the Lord" nor is there any definitive proof.”

Oh, yes there is plenty of definitive prove not the least of which is the simple fact that no Christians today can demonstrate that they have these powers. They are like you. All they can do is lie and pretend that they have these powers but they cannot show that they really have them. And there is surely much “thus saith the Lord” about this subject and we have presented them to you before in the other threads that we have mentioned. And we are more than willing to do it yet again if you wish to discuss it yet again. And again I suggest that we start a new thread for that purpose. But if you wish to discuss this issue yet again with us then we suggest that you agree to answer ALL OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WE ASK YOU or at the least admit that you do not know the answers to any that you do answer. And we will do the same. But our readers are able to see that the Lord has revealed much about the nature, purpose, and duration of the miraculous gifts that were related to inspiration, which Christians received and actually possessed in New Testament times. And from them we have an INSPIRED New Testament miraculously confirmed to have come from God. And we are hence guided today by the Holy Spirit through the inspired words confirmed by men who had the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven. (Heb. 2;3,4; Mark 16:16-20; 1 Cor. 13;8-13; Eph. 4:11; Acts 8:14-24;19:1-6). And the passages in the New Testament which speak of these miraculous gifts are referring to those inspired persons who guided the church during its infancy and in the receiving of the divine word of God. Which word is our perpetual and never ending guidance from the Holy Spirit until Christ our Lord returns. And those seeking gifts instead of guidance from the word of God are simply self-deluded or deliberate deceivers. Those are briefly the facts, which we have proven often in detail. And you have neither said nor done anything that would cause any intelligent person to doubt these facts.

Beware of such men Brethren.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2001

Lee to try to "prove" tongues over the internet is a bait from Satan. You have the scriptures, they do not lie, tongues does exist. Yet you ignore like you always do the argument. You pick and choose and twist truth around to fit the lies that you are espoucing from the pits of Hell. Lee I will pray that the evil one will leave your heart and quit blinding you to the truth.

Lee, you cannot prove that they (ie. tongues) do not exist. I have read the "emotions" posts and I find that you are rude, arogant, and completely like the pharisees.

Here is food for you to chomp on- I speak bodly in tongues (both forms) and I have also danced in worship, and I have beed slain in the Spirit on numerous occasions. It this all emotionalism- no- can I prove these experiences from scripture yes!

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2001

adk,

I don't have time or desire to argue this now... but I don't believe that you can prove from scripture that tongues exist today anymore than Lee can prove they don't... especially if neither is willing to see the other point of view.

You have said that Lee is twisting the scriptures... many would say the same for you. It is so easy to interpret things differently. Is this what God intended... I DON'T THINK SO. Is this what happens, unfortunately yes.

Adk, you were right about one things... it is hard to prove or make a point on the Internet.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2001

Marc, I think I can make a pretty good argument for tongues today. What the traditional RM theory has been is based on assumption of several key issues, such as the gifts died out with the Apostles, only gifts could be given through the apostolic laying on of hands, and the word 'perfect' I Cor 13:10. All of those points are theological assumptions. There is not one "thus saith the Lord" about their end. If the gifts (ie tongues, healing, discernment, miracles, interpretation, and prophecy) ceased then where is the proof. There is no difinative proof. Now if there is no evidence for their demise then, it is safe to reason that they do still exist. The reason why many in the church do not have them- is do to the teaching that they are gone or they are just not desired. Many will say, "we do not need them for we have the NT." well to that I say we do still need them for- by them the church is strengthened and the gospel is advanced cf. (Mark 16:16ff; I Cor 14:3-4). Not only do we need the entire scripture both OT and NT but we also need the gifts that Christ wants to give His Church to help spread the gospel.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2001

Heavenly...

Only churches that are spiritually immature need the gifts.

"When I was a child...I spoke as a child."

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

Brother ADK:

You have said:

“Lee to try to "prove" tongues over the Internet is a bait from Satan.”

Well that is a fine assertion but where is the proof of it? And no one has asked you to “prove tongues over the Internet”. We have asked you to prove it by demonstrating that you have these gifts. We do not doubt the existence of the gift of tongues. That gift was given to certain persons in the first century and there was no question about it because they never argued about the “existence” of such a gift because the open and constant demonstration of that gift made it abundantly apparent that God had given them such powers. (1 Cor. 2:4,5). There is not a place in the New Testament where these gifts were ever in doubt because of the simple fact that they were being openly demonstrated in the presence of those who would have been ready at any moment to cast doubt upon their reality. Unlike those, such as you, who today can do nothing more than “pretend” and assert and claim to have gifts that they are completely unable and therefore constantly unwilling to demonstrate.

And it is possible for one to demonstrate the ability to speak in languages, which they have never studied, on the Internet. But we simply asked you to demonstrate you tongue speaking powers, which you falsely claim to have received from God just like those persons who actually received them in the New Testament. And you have not even offered to demonstrate these powers to us in some forum other than the Internet. We do notice that you did not offer to demonstrate them in any other forum. You imply by saying that it is hard to demonstrate these powers on the Internet that you could and would demonstrate them in some other forum. But you were afraid to offer to actually do so, now weren’t you? Maybe you would like to do it via a Phone call to persons who actually speak foreign languages who would confirm to us the Excellency with which you speak their languages without ever having studied them. Or maybe you would like to arrange a demonstration at a mutual place of meeting in person to some of us in the forum that would attend with persons who speak foreign languages and see just how well you do in speaking their languages though you have never studied them. No, Brother ADK we have not “confined” you to any impossible task of demonstrating your powers via the Internet. WE are asking you simply to demonstrate them and we will all report back to the forum what we saw with our own eyes and hear with our own ears.

But, you say that our request for proof of this thing comes from Satan. But the truth is that it comes from God’s own word which says, “prove all things (that includes your claims to have the power to speak languages with you have never studied.) And hold fast to that which is true”. Now God said those words and we are simply doing what He has commanded us to do. Yet you think that our doing as God commanded us is “bait from Satan”. It was not the kind of “bait” Satan used in the New Testament. Because he knew that making such a challenge in those days would be extremely foolish of him. For if he did such someone like the apostle Paul would simply step up and demonstrate the great power of God (1 Cor. 2:4,5) and his cause would suffer a fatal blow. So, if God has given anyone the today the gifts that he gave the apostles and first century Christians then such “baiting” would be as foolish now as it would have been then. For someone would boldly stand up and demonstrate the genuine, real power of God for all to see and his “baiting” would come to an abrupt and final end. But the truth is that you perceive of it, as “bait from Satan” because you know that down deep inside you do not actually possess the powers, which you falsely claim to possess, now don’t you?

Then you say:

“You have the scriptures, they do not lie, tongues does exist.”

Oh, it is not the Scriptures, Brother ADK that we doubt. We know that God gave gifts unto men in the New Testament times and we firmly believe that he has the power to give them to men today, even though he has not promised to do so. And we have not said that “tongues do not exist” for we verily believe firmly that there are many languages in the world and the power to speak them without studying them exist with God as much today as any time in the history of man. And the ability to grant those powers to anyone is God’s today as it was in the first century. And, if he has granted those powers to anyone there would be plenty of demonstrations of the use of such powers and no man, least of all E. Lee Saffold, would be able to deny it. For it would be so evident that even unbelievers would have to admit that it came from God. For that is exactly how it was in New Testament times. No one, not even the unbelieving Jews denied that the early Christians had these powers. In fact, Simon was one who was, like you, a great pretender. He claimed to be the great power of God. But when the people of Samaria saw the signs and wonders which were done among them they saw the distinct difference between foolish pretenders and the genuine power of God manifested in those genuinely gifted Christians. (Acts 8:8-24).

So, it is not the scriptures that we doubt, Brother ADK. It is YOU that we doubt. And we do not doubt that tongues and the gift to speak them without studying exist today. For that Power originates with the Holy Spirit and we know that he exist. And He still has the same power to grant those gifts today as he ever had. But, what we doubt is that pretenders like yourself actually received those gifts from God. And that is the part that you admit that you cannot prove. WE are asking you, not to prove that tongues exist and that the powers to speak them exist. We are asking you to prove that you or anyone else has received those powers. That is what we are asking. For even if one could prove that God promised to give those gifts to us today, which they cannot, it would not prove that every pretender that comes along and claims to have such powers from God actually possesses them, now would it?

Then you say:

“Yet you ignore like you always do the argument.”

Well that is a fine assertion. But where is the proof of it? Name the argument that you think that I have “ignored” and we will answer it even if we have answered it before. Which we surely have answered every argument, word for word, that was made in all of our discussions of this subject. And all that read these threads know that it is our habit to answer ever word in most post to which we respond.

Then you say:

“You pick and choose and twist truth around to fit the lies that you are espoucing from the pits of Hell.”

Well, that is another fine assertion which you offer without offering a single shred of evidence that would cause any thinking person to believe it. In responding to you, as well as others in this forum, it has been our habit to respond to every word that is written in the post to which we respond. SO, it is impossible to say that we have been “picking and choosing” anything. And if you think there is an argument that we have “twisted” then produce the argument, demonstrate that we have “twisted it” and we will “straighten it out” if it turns out that we have done such. If not then we will “straighten you out” on the matter. But you have not the courage to give concrete examples of any “truth” which you can prove that we have deliberately “twisted”. The reason you do not give any examples is because of the simple fact that you have none to give. You cannot answer our arguments and that frustrates you so you cry that we have “twisted the truth” without even attempting to prove that we have done any such thing.

Then you say:

“ Lee I will pray that the evil one will leave your heart and quit blinding you to the truth.”

Well, why pray for God to do something that you could do yourself if you had any ability to prove what you say? If you can prove that we are in fact “blind” and that the cause of our blindness is “Satan” then we would pray to God ourselves to have such blindness removed. But you have y to prove that we are “blind to the truth” as you falsely assert. And you have not offered any evidence to indicate that Satan has done anything to us. Just because we do not believe your false and pretentious claims for yourself does not mean that we are “blind to the truth” and that Satan has blinded us. All you have to do is demonstrate that your claims are in fact the truth by demonstrating that you actually have these powers that you claim for yourself. And we will no longer be “blind” if we are in fact unable to see, and if Satan were the one deceiving us we would then be free from such deception.

But it does indeed appear to us that the one that has been deceived is our Brother ADK who thinks that he has powers, which he cannot even exercise or demonstrate. And if he says he has demonstrated them for himself then we ask why not demonstrate them to all?

Then, our Brother ADK, is praying that “the evil one would leave our hearts” without proving that the evil one is in our hearts. Ha! The only reason that he thinks the “evil one is in our hearts” is because we do not believe his pretentious claims to have the same powers which God has surely given to some men that we read about in the New Testament. That is not evil, that is simply doing as God commanded us. “Prove all things, hold fast to that which is Good.” That is what we are doing and God told us to do it. But because this runs counter to the vain imaginations of our Brother ADK he thinks that we have “evil” in our hearts.

Then he says:

“Lee, you cannot prove that they (ie. tongues) do not exist.”

We have already answered this nonsense above. WE have never tried to prove that “tongues do not exist”. For they exist in the New Testament, the power to grant these gifts still exist with God, who is the source of anything miraculous, and the fact that there are hundreds of languages in the world is proof that there are many different tongues that are spoke. But, the pretentious and completely false assertion of Brother ADK that he has been given the ability to speak any of these languages instantaneously without having to sty the language is what we are convinced is pathetically false. Those gifts were given in the New Testament and they have not been given since the New Testament was completed. And if one claims, as Brother ADK, that God has granted him such gifts then he must prove that God has done so. For without proof we have no reason to believe him. And though we have asked him many times to prove that he has them he simply refuses to even make any attempt to do so. And criticizes us for asking him to make good on his claims.

Then he says:

“ I have read the "emotions" posts and I find that you are rude, arogant, and completely like the pharisees.”

Oh, Brother “ADK” we know you have read the “emotions” thread. HA! And we know that you thought then that our challenging your false assertions was “rude, arrogant, and like the Pharisees” and you have not changed since you first faced those arguments, now have you? And we note that you do not now, as you did not then, take up any of our arguments to answer them. You would rather just try to make it appear that we are “rude”. You see Brethren, it is “rude” of us to question this pretender isn’t it. Some, claimed to be apostles and were not and it must have been very “rude” of the Brethren who “tried them and found them wanting” to have questioned their lofty arrogant pretensions, wasn’t it? And Brother ADK claims to have the very power of God to speak in languages that he has never studied. And it is just terribly “rude” of us to question his “arrogant” claims but we must do it because God has commanded us, “prove all things, hold fast to that which is good”. And God has further commanded us, “beloved, believe not every spirit …. For many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

Then Brother ADK pretends to give us, instead of a demonstration, which would prove that he has miraculous powers, “food to chomp on” as follows:

“Here is food for you to chomp on- I speak bodly in tongues (both forms) and I have also danced in worship, and I have beed slain in the Spirit on numerous occasions.”

Now, Brethren, Brother ADK promised us food and gave us “garbage” instead. All of the above, is nothing more than trash, garbage, and hogwash. It is not digestible spiritual food. For that food comes from the word of God. (Matt. 4:4). Notice, that he claims to “speak boldly” in tongues. But he is not so bold to speak in front of us so as to demonstrate his powers, now is he? WE are convinced that he is a pretender that is too cowardly to even attempt to “speak boldly in tongues” in the presence of those who are capable and able to determine if he is in fact speaking any language known to man. And if so what language was it and did he speak it flawlessly? There is no “boldness” in Brother ADK’s actions in running away from our challenge for him to demonstrate his power, now is there?

Then he says:

“ It this all emotionalism- no- can I prove these experiences from scripture yes!”

Now, this is pure nonsense, hogwash, garbage, and pathetically unproven pretension. And Brother ADK has yet to prove that the gift that he claims to possess is even remotely similar to that found in the scriptures. For he will not even attempt to demonstrate that it is the same. WE believe in the tongues that we read about in the scriptures. But it is the pretentious and totally imaginary claims of tongues among men, such as Brother ADK, that we do not accept. For the tongues of the New Testament are verifiable. But the tongues of Brother ADK are not unless he is willing to demonstrate them. Therefore we have ver good and sufficient reason to believe that the apostle Paul and other apostles and early Christians spoke in languages which they had never studied by the power of the gift of tongues received from the Holy Spirit. But we have absolutely no good reason to believe that these pretenders, like ADK have received those powers. And the fact that they are unwilling and unable to demonstrate such powers as were the apostles (1 Cor. 2:4,5) is evident that they have much to hide about their pretentious lies.

He asks is this all emotionalism. No, most of it is purely wishful thinking, delusion, self-deception and in many cases outright fraud. It is that simple, Brethren.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

Lee, you have stated: . "But we have absolutely no good reason to believe that these pretenders, like ADK have received those powers. And the fact that they are unwilling and unable to demonstrate such powers as were the apostles (1 Cor. 2:4,5) is evident that they have much to hide about their pretentious lies."

First, as I stated before- and you choose to ignore... you come from the assumption the the gifts first are now no longer exist. Second you assume that the gifts only could be given through the apostles and thus they died out within the first century. Third, that the perfect I Cor. 13:10 is the NT. All of these three arguments are theological assumptions which you choose to ignore.

It seems illogical for you to constantly say "prove it" with a closed mind and heart. You look at scripture from an historical point of view that denies the use of tongues for today.

Also, tongues tdoes not solely function like you indicate. Tongues is not solely relegated to speak in a previously unlearned language. What Paul wrote in I COr 12-14 are guidlines for it's usage- due to abuse. What Paul indicates is that tongues is also used to edify the believer in their own prayer life. Can I talk on the phone to you and speak in tongues? Yes, but they would mainly be for me- for my prayer life. Now I could interpret them or you could, if God blessed us with that ability. Interpretation does not have to come from someone who speaks another language. They interpret for the edification of the congregation who does not understand the tongue. Tongues can be between the person and the Lord.

Plus, Lee, when you want us to demonstrate our "powers" so you can believe... that is the same argument the pharisees used when Jesus was brought before Herod. There are only a few places in the scripture that we are to test God- mainly in the realm of money Mal.3. I do not have to prove anything to you. But, I CAN prove them through the scripture.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001