Hi, excuse me if this is off-topic here, but I've come to love this forum and the kind attitude of people here.

Before knowing photo.net, and especially this forum, I didn't even know what bokeh was. Now I'm starting to think of it, and trying to use it as a tool to strenghten the composition. Looking at the picture posted below, how would you define this bokeh? PS, it was taken with a 24mm nikkor, at 2.8. Is it so far from leicaesque bokeh? PS: it's not intended as a lame attempt to get critiqued, it's just something which makes me curious. Thank you

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=382864&size=lg

-- Antonio Carrus (antoniocarrus@yahoo.it), October 05, 2001

Answers

Bokeh looks fine to me, I doubt I could tell it apart from a Leica 24mm. Usually one does not think of extreme wide angles on bokeh terms as the depth of field is large. 35mm and up is usually where "bokeh analysis" really takes off.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), October 05, 2001.

Antonio:

Very nice and smooth bokeh! I used to own this Nikon lens and was always pleased with the rendition of the out of focus areas of the image. I also thought this was one of Nikon's best lenses. So the 'bokeh' here is certainly 'leicaesque'. By the way, not all Leica lenses have smooth or good bokeh!...............

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), October 05, 2001.

Some times hard to notice bokeh with such wide angle lenses, but your picture shows it, and looks good, I have a 24 from nikon too, but never seen an out of focus rendition yet, what about the bokeh of the wine on the table? cheers!

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), October 05, 2001.

1) Very nice picture.

2) USUALLY the bokeh of a lens is different for out-of-focus backgrounds than it is for out-of-focus foregrounds. because of how the light rays cross paths in front of and behind the film. This is why the Nikon 105/135 DC "variable bokeh" lenses have plus AND minus settings. This is pretty evident in the pre-ASPH/APO 35/90 Leica Summicrons, which tend to show some 'bright-ring' bokeh in OOF backgrounds and softer renditions (like your 24) in OOF foregrounds.

3) There is some variation of opinion as to whether 'good' bokeh refers to a smooth TRANSITION between focused and unfocused areas, or to the smooth rendering of the actual OOF areas themselves. I personally think that both attributes make a contribution. Your 24 seems to handle both well.

4) IMHO, IF (note IF) Leica lenses have any overall advantage in 'bokeh' rendition it has as much to do with tonal rendition as with the actual optical paths of the light rays. If two lenses form otherwise identical images, the one with a longer highlight tonal scale may give the APPEARANCE of smoother bokeh. The joke on us rangefinder users is, of course, that we can't see ANY bokeh until we look at the film - we have to imagine it through the viewfinder using experience.

5) Finally, of course, some folks really only care about the sharp parts of the picture. Millions of great pictures have been made without any thought given to the 'bokeh' involved. But IF some part of the picture is going to be OOF, IMHO, it's good to know whether it will support, detract from, or be neutral in relation to the sharp area and (as you said) the overall composition. Photographers are responsible for ALL parts of their pictures, not just the focused parts.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), October 05, 2001.

Seeing bokeh in wide-angle shots is usually hard because a lot of shots have most of the out of focus (OOF) area behind the subject. You did something very nice here by putting a lot of the OOF in front of the person, since the focus falls 2/3rd behind and 1/3rd in front of the focus plane, you therefore maximized the potential for having visible blur. Very nice shot!

For what it is worth, I am a Nikon using Leica guy, and have very good experiences with many older MF Nikkors. Leica has a better range of lenses with good OOF blur effect, but there are several good Nikkors too. I'd pick the 105mm f/2.5 Nikkor over the 90mm Elmarit M at full aperture any day... not for the subject, but for the background that the subject is surrounded by.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 05, 2001.

Al are you sure of what you have just said, you can untide the Saint World Bokeh War; actualy I´m very interested in test that lens (nikon 105/2.5); but I just haven´t got my hands on one; can some one share some comparison?

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), October 05, 2001.

Hmm. I had three of the Nikkor 105/2.5s over the years and I prefer the Elmarit-M 90/2.8 over them. Although I have to admit the 105/2.5 is very very fine, one of the truly legendary Nikon lenses.

Many manufacturers have made lenses wth fine imaging qualities, but you see Leica and Zeiss on the top of the lists in this regard more consistently than most others. It's almost as if sharpness is easy and blur is a pain... :-)

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), October 05, 2001.

Roberto,

My choice of lens preference is simply my preference. I don't think that anyone has quantified bokeh, so since it can't be measured, you either like it or you don't. More important than my preference, which may be jaded by knowing how much I have spent on this gear, is that people that I photograph that have no knowledge or interest in the photographic process consistently choose the Nikon as the most flattering, (not the sharpest), and for a lens dedicated for portraits, this can't be ignored. I would always choose the Elmarit M when extreme detail is required, like counting every brick in a building, but I don't want to see every wrinkle and pore, and neither do the people that I shoot. This is a case when the winner of an MTF contest might not be the best tool for a specific task.

As I have said, I don't have a scanner or website, but I would be more than happy to mail some shots to you to look at. I did some side by side Nikon and Leica shots... same face, same aperture, same light... so the only difference would be the slight reduced scale of the 90mm over the 105mm lens. E-mail me if you would like to see them.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), October 06, 2001.

Hi, Antonio:

I think Roberto is right and a battle was initiated by your posting. It already begins to show.

In order to heat up things I brought a Leica photo that also shows some boke in the foreground though due to an old 9cm f4 Elmar and a mineral water bottle instead of a wide angle lens and wine bottles in order to further stress the comparison.

Intended comparisons are about bokeh only. I like your photo better because of the graphic quality of your composition.

Andy: thanks for your excelent note.

Regards, friends

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), October 06, 2001.

Sorry ! ! ! I don´t know what happened.

The rest of the message explained that I was contributing a Leica photo also showing bokeh in the foreground to allow noting differences/similitudes. Further more, this Leica bokeh is due to an old 9 cm f4 Elmar and a bottle of mineral water instead of a wide angle lens and bottles of wine in order to stress the comparisons.

Comparisons are intended to bokeh content only. I like your photo better because of the more powerful graphic composition.

And thanks, Andy. Excelent note.

Regards, friends

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), October 06, 2001.

Interesting picture Iván, even a 90 elmar, let me tell you I´m a defender of that lens, I´ve had it for many years that feel it so close, but now I don´t use it much, but I have some pictures to show what I have done with it, hope I get on well with my newer 90/2 as I did with my elmar.

About the bokeh war, well I was just kidding my friends, but it is true that I´m very interested in known the qualities of that lens, you know Al, out of focus imagen in a picture has interested me since a few years, and I have understand more of it thank´s to post and pictures here, of course I want to see that Al, hope you could post them here, so it wouldn´t be so expensive, but at the same time this is a great oportunity to have some of your work

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), October 06, 2001.

I love my nikon 105 2.5 took this on it

-- brian david stevens (briandavidstevens@excite.com), October 07, 2001.

I've seen a lot of comparisons between lenses regarding bokeh posted here, but has anybody ever factored in developers? A high definition developer will render an out of focus background differently than D-76. Just a thought.

-- Steve Wiley (wiley@accesshub.net), October 07, 2001.