Two links please...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/hijack091101.htm

and

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/international/14CAPI.html this one will require one to click-on a link under the multimedia area of the page and open a javascript item. Then once open, use the dropdown box and click on "Tracking the doomed flights".

OK so what do we have? Hopefully you have the two map items opened so you can look at them side-by-side on your monitor.

Now beyond the fact almost every similar map on the internet does not match well at all(different routes, different takeoff times, different impact times), how is it possible these two maps from two leading US newspapers shows such a different route for Flight 77?

Back to the maps. The NYTimes map is referenced to have come from flytecomm. They are a private software tracking company I will assume uses FAA data. How is it their Flight77 turn-around point is almost 400 miles further than what I will assume is the FAA version found at the WashPost? But as with all maps online, Flight77 is a no show once it turned, over whatever state is referenced.

How is it possible many different websites, using the same source can get the plane and passenger counts to match, but few can get ther flight times together or flight routes?

What does it mean? Not sure but I think it needs to be asked.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

Answers

I should also say the "transponder" deal while probably true and possible, forgets there are other tracking mechanisms available to the FAA.

Why is nobody asking these questions?

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

Here this will explain it all for people like DP.

http://www.timebomb2 000.com/vb/showthread.php? s=ad91889447de13030be35276342e4862&threadid=6738

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

Here back at ya

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

BTW, this isn't about being Happy, it is about finding out what in the hell is going on.

When did the light go out? JFK, MLK, RFK, Vietnam and Watergate..now? levy and lewinsky and going out of one's way to defend authority? What happened?

Support AMERICANS, question authority.

Is Bin Laden more than just a Trainer? is he capable of this? Why would he do this? and now? Why are there maps claiming the FAA was unable to track Flight77? Why is this "Liberal Media" going unquestioned? Why is GW even bothering to explain why he went to Nebraska? Why has no retaliation been made? Could it be because he is checkmated from doing so? Think back to the China "spy plane" incident. What is Iran's opinion on this Horror?

Just asking, and that is what an American does. Forgive me if my emotional cycles move faster than cues from CNN.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

Um..Doc...you better look at your maps again. The Washington Post shows the solid line SLIGHTLY over the KY border, the New York Times shows it just slightly before the KY border, but taking the same turn.

At no time does it say the FAA could not track the flight, it just said it was "unclear". As many news sources have said, it is not impossible to track with the transponder off, it just makes it easier because that is the item that feeds the flight number to the controllers.

So, being a good little reporter (although not working on this story) I called a friend of mine who is a Captain for one of the major airlines (I am not saying which, but trust me you know the companies name VERY well) and asked him about transponders and what exactly it means. He said that "Well yeah, of course they can track us without them, but they don't know who we are unless the transponder is transmitting or unless we answer them by radio call sign. If we don't respond, we are just a blip, and with all the traffic, espicially in that area, it could be real easy to lose us in the mass (of traffic)."

I also asked him about this four digit code that they are supposed to enter on their transponder if they are being hijacked. He said "Well, it's a nice plan, but if the hijackers know anything about the cockpit, they will know what we are doing. On the 757's and 767's the transponder is right in the center of the console, so there is no way to do it without them seeing you doing it."

You keep trying Doc, you freshly minted Meme you.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

At no time does it say the FAA could not track the flight, it just said it was "unclear".

Neither map references the FAA anyplace Rick, does it, how did you conclude as much? BTW, read the NYTimes map again, it does say they LOST CONTACT, does it not? And anyone who thinks the dotted lines on the Post map not an indication of a guesstimite is simply being knavish.

As many news sources have said, it is not impossible to track with the transponder off, it just makes it easier because that is the item that feeds the flight number to the controllers.

So, being a good little reporter (although not working on this story) I called a friend of mine who is a Captain for one of the major airlines (I am not saying which, but trust me you know the companies name VERY well) and asked him about transponders and what exactly it means. He said that "Well yeah, of course they can track us without them, but they don't know who we are unless the transponder is transmitting or unless we answer them by radio call sign. If we don't respond, we are just a blip, and with all the traffic, espicially in that area, it could be real easy to lose us in the mass (of traffic)."

First off, what MANY newstories are you talking about? BTW in a related matter, and true to form, the Flight77 black box is destroyed and of no use apparently,,,gee I am shocked.

Additionally your answer is absurd on its face. ATC suddenly loses a marked flight...this indicates to you they are just going to ignore the thing? Hardly. In fact the OPPOSITE would happen. I would venture a guess(just a guess mind you)the unmarked plane sticks out like a sore thumb on even a crowded screen. I would also bet the software "marks" such events(different color-blinks-sounds) to make it easy to track an unmarked and especially an "out of route" commercial flight. Lack of voice communications would add still more reason this flight was absolutely tracked. If this is not the case, then why even have ATC? think about it.

I also asked him about this four digit code that they are supposed to enter on their transponder if they are being hijacked. He said "Well, it's a nice plan, but if the hijackers know anything about the cockpit, they will know what we are doing. On the 757's and 767's the transponder is right in the center of the console, so there is no way to do it without them seeing you doing it."

I never mentioned any Hijack codes, but thanks for the heads-up. What it adds here however is nothing germain to the conversation. The pilot can change flight info and IDS, this is clear. It is also clear in this situation STEALTH mode is impossible. This alone indicates it even doubtful any of this "radar off" happened at all. It simply makes no sense. Why would they have WANTED the extra attention?

Truth is Rick, these maps have been doctored. They are largely fiction. They do not show what multiple eyewitnesses in the District claim was a full circle and then flyaway by this Flight77 which went to "some" area near the KY border. These maps also are in opposition to the initial reports I heard Tuesday that this Flight77 took-off from Dulles and proceed directly to the Pentagon and crashed.

But thanks for responding.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

YOU ARE DELUSIONAL PLANE : DEPARTED 8:10 HIT PENTAGON 9:40

LETS SEE. PENTAGON IS ABOUT 10 MIN. BY AIR FROM DULLES.

WHAT THE FUCK WAS IT DOING FOR 1 HOUR--30 MINUTES CIRCLING THE BELTWAY SO ITS FLIGHT PLAN EQUALED WHAT SOME TV REPORT YOU HEARD IN LAS VEGAS ???????

GET A LIFE.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Geesh get a grip oldman.

Even Rush Limbaugh ain't buying this flight77 media presented fluff, why are you?

America is very close to being Politically Corrected out-of- existence...wake-up!

It is about a MOLE. You figure out the rest, getting it yet?

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

It is my sincere hope that someday the Doc Paulie of old will return. It is obvious this one is beyond help now. Maybe you would be better off listening to Art Bell than hanging out here Doc. He can tell you all about the "devils" you can see in the smoke in some of the WTC photos. I am sure they figure into your new little world somehow.

Truly sad Doc, truly sad.

Rick

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

BooHoo another Fan bites the dust.

Take a seat, you ain't going anywhere so cut the shit Rick.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Link to the Mole reference

This is a legitimate story. Bitch all you want, it is very important.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

So? The only MOLE is the one eating the remaining matter between your ears. YOU have earned the right to join Dennis the Menace and the rest of the Flakes at the assorted TBs. GO THERE. You will be able to mesh YOUR "conspiracy BS" with theirs and maybe come up with another one tying this DISASTER to JFK and the WELL KNOWN FACT.....THAT WALT DISNEY HAD MICKEY MOUSE AND DONALD DUCK DO IT ALL.

YOUR LINK EVEN DE-BUNKS YOU. IT explains your "why did ***PRESIDENT BUSH*** go to Neb.??" ATTEMPT TO SMEAR BUSH AS A CHICKEN. YOU SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT POST AS YOU MOVE ONTO MORE BULLSHIT. The first report I heard on ABC about the path of the plane that hit the Pentagon was that it had flown down the Potomac, turned over the Mall, flown over the Capitol and then dove into the helo pad and the wall of the Pentagon.

AT THAT TIME, BUSH's whereabouts were not disclosed and weren't until he surfaced first in LA then in NEB. Now if you were the Secret Service and heard that there was still one more plane "missing" and the last one that had gone into the Pentagon after flying over the MALL (which can be seen from the WH) what do you do with Bush and Chaney.

IT IS NOW RATHER OBVIOUS THAT THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE MORE TEAM THAT DIDN'T GET ON A PLANE. (SEE THE STORIES ON THE 2 CLOWNS PICKED UP IN F.W. WITH BOX CUTTERS AND OTHER GEAR).

You can't toss around your BS and then keep moving on. Which is it? Bush "ran to Nebraska" OR the Secret Service made him go there until they could figure out what was going on??

As for MAPS. WHO CARES? They were whipped up by TV and Web people AND WHO REALLY KNEW WHAT THE ROUTE WAS??? AT THE TIME THERE WERE STILL 1,000S OF OTHER PLANES IN THE SKIES.

WHAT YOU SEEM TO MISS IS THE RATHER INTERESTING FACT THAT ONE PLANE WAS OUT AS FAR AS **INDIANA** TURNED AROUND AND WENT DOWN. SEE THE INTERACTIVE SECTION ON THE NY TIMES.

SOBER UP. You have been walking around in the desert sun far too much. Its bleached out your brain.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

I think there are a few misconceptions. I think most of us are aware of the breakdown in strict quality and standards in American society in the past 2-3 decades.

Reagan shut down the ATC workers when they tried to bring attention to the poor state it was in. Rather than look into their complaints he put them under the umbrella of the FAA.

The FAA is corrupt, I have complained about it all the way back to the early days of my participation in Y2K.

They tend to allow the Airlines to get away with too many unsafe practices because it interfers with their profits. We saw the results in Florida.

The problem is not republican or democratic, it is American. Our attitude too much government in in our lives, too many rules we have to follow which we percieve as an asault of our freedom. Before Tuesday, I said with freedom comes responsibility.

Anyway, ATC workers have too many planes to track at all times and with common failures, a "blip" without a transponder number would not be viewed as anything more then a probable failure of an individual aircraft. There is no reason to assume that different controllers would realise anything unusual. If there had been one controller responsible for two or more planes without transponder output that may have caused an alarm to be raised.

I think you will find this was not the case, the aircraft in all probablility were not only being tracked by different ATC controllers, but at different locations.

Y2K had the possitive action of having those old analog computers replaced with new technology. You know that picture Stephen has of me standing in front of that analog computer cabinet? That is the exact computer tecnology (if not the same model computer) that had been running ATC. It is vacume tube technology and there was a constant search for them, since they had not been made for decades.

ATC workers are very busy trying to get aircraft into and out of airports safely to spend any time following the path of an aircraft in flight, especially if the aircraft crew itself were not contacting them to bring attention to them.

There are so many areas of life in America where we complain about all the rules imposed on us and have learned to scate around them. It has become an American way of life to put our individual desires ahead of the good of society as a whole.

shrug

Nobody cared before Tuesday, most had no reason to question this attitude, which they probably held themselves.

It isn't that anyone is bad, we just live in a society that is free to have this attitude.

The reason no one really knows the path of the aircraft when it left it's assigned flight plan is that there is no reason it would have been recorded. You don't believe there is some master computer somewhere that keeps a record of the flight path of every aircraft do you?

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Cherri,

Of course there's not a master computer and I think Charlie's aware of that. The media made educated guesses at the flight paths. I wouldn't expect the maps to agree, not when you've got three or four different people making guesses.

You know what's really happening here?

We're furious, mad, hurt, furious and angry. Sniping at each other isn't going to help.

Doc,

You need to focus on the real enemy.

Yes, we need DESPERATELY to make some changes here. Yes, there may have been a mole in the White House. But we're not the enemy.

None of our mistakes -- and yes, there have been some whoppers -- excuse what the Bin Ladin types have done. They're the REAL enemy and I am going to focus on THEM.

Again: the fact that I might have forgotten to lock my doors doesn't mean that a criminal has any right to enter my house. It doesn't reduce his guilt, and if he's caught, it won't reduce his sentence a lick.

That's as is should be.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

I have far better things to do now than read the DP horse shit. YOU EITHER TRUST THE US GOVERNMENT TO HANDLE THIS CRISIS OR YOU DON'T. Part of that TRUST comes from ELIMINATING UNPROVEN, HORSE SHIT "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" THAT COULDN'T EVEN BE MADE INTO A "B" MOVIE OR A TV SERIES.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM......GO FIND A BETTER ONE OR BUY AN ISLAND AND START YOUR OWN. 212 YEARS OF THE CURRENT ONE HAVE PROVIDED MOST PEOPLE WITH A STANDARD OF LIVING UNMATCHED BY 80% OF THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD.

IN SHORT..........LOVE IT .......OR LEAVE IT.

I blame RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS for this NOT SOME SILLY FIGMENT OF BOOZE OR DRUG SOAKED IMAGINATIONS ON THE NET.

I knew 3 people who died in NYC and I *think* I lost a distant 2nd cousin in DC who I never met. One of my best friends lost over 50 people she had worked with for years and considered her friends. Another one lost her current boy friend who was a bond trader.

This PM I'm taking flowers to the Islamic Center with a note that will read "from one American to MANY MORE". Yesterday, they hosted both Christian and Jewish leaders in a show of Solidarity against the Red Necks who fire bombed one Mosque and shot at others.

After that, I'm off to FRY's to pick up a 40 GIG Seagate for $79 !!! and maybe buy one of their barebone AMD 1.3 G. for $249 and build another box. It will be the first NON-INTEL Box I"ve ever built.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

CPR,

This PM I'm taking flowers to the Islamic Center with a note that will read "from one American to MANY MORE".

I'm proud of you. :)

buy one of their barebone AMD 1.3 G.

I have a 350Mhz AMD and love it. They had some problems with the first clones, but the latest ones are spot-on. You'll enjoy it.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

http://www.natca.org/index1.htm

STATEMENT FROM THE NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION

WASHINGTON - On this national day of prayer and remembrance, air traffic controllers pause to join with the country in extending our deepest sympathies, thoughts and prayers to the thousands of families affected by this horrific tragedy.

Today, we are joining together to help restore our National Airspace System (NAS) to its rightful stature as a safe harbor for all citizens.

We are also currently in the process of assisting the FAA and national security authorities in reconstructing the events of Tuesday morning. As we continue to assist this ongoing criminal investigation, please understand we will not be able to provide specific information on what happened due to its highly sensitive nature and critical importance to national security.

NATCA will continue to attempt to provide accurate information or correct false information to the best of its ability. We urge the media to exercise restraint and extreme caution in this arena.

The first priority of controllers is to work to help restore the NAS, ensuring the safe, orderly and expeditious flow of aircraft. Please understand -- we will not take part in discussions - either on or off the record - which may jeopardize national security or the progress of investigations into these heinous and cowardly acts.

We stand ready to assist the country in any way possible.

____________________________________________________________________ BTW, shall we get into the "speculation" that Flight93(Pennsylvania crash) was tailed by fighters and then shot-down?

Look, we have HOLES(moles) at levels apparently INSIDE the highest levels of this Government. We as well have a return to BUSINESS as USUAL with flights returning to the skys. American Citizens are flying in planes in a system which maybe corrupt to the core. Vulnerable to any whacko with a boxcutter.

What we have by the likes of Reuben and Poole is nothing more than damage-control for their fategos over what must be clear to any dolt, they voted for a MORON.

Might as well face it boys, this ain't going away and you best deal with it.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Doc,

Since you're determined to rehash this, tell me what Clinton could have done to help prevent this while he was in office.

What measures could he have taken to prevent moles in the White House, to increase our intelligence-gathering capabilities? What could he have done? What are HIS mistakes.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

AS you advise,,,it is pointless to rehash the past.

Why is NFL FOOTBALL cancelled but commercial jet travel a go again?

Deal with the NOW Poole. Or do you want to rewrite those rules of yours yet again in your incessant attempt to protect your ego?

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Oh I should "cut the shit" for calling it as I see it? Tell me Doc, besides sitting here and whining about BS conspiracy theories...what have you done to help? Have you even bothered to lift a pinky to help with the relief effort? I have done what some would consider a lot, and what would consider a little, but I'm not going to list all the things I have done, and the other things I have planned, because getting praise is not what this is all about. But I just want to know, have you done even *one* thing? You don't have to even tell us what it is. I will trust you to answer this honestly. Given blood? Given money? Donated clothes? Sent toys for children? Come on, surely as a good American you have done SOMETHING?

And now that I have gotten to sleep and calm down some, I believe it was either CPR or Stephen (sorry guys, I know it was one of you) brought up that your "doctored" maps were whipped up by graphics guys at those newspapers. You understand that right? That some guy probably earning around $15.00 an hour was told "Hey, make us a map showing the flight paths." I would hope you have not fallen so far into this dellusion of conspiracies to realize that.

You know Doc, over on TB2K on Tuesday they were discussing ammo and it was time to "Lock and Load", hope you got in on that. You know, Art Bell lives just outside of LV, maybe you can go visit him in person. Take him some of your "evidence" and he will get the "truth" out to the people.

To everyone:Has anyone ever realized just how many people would have to be involved in some of these consparicies to make them work? And yet the conspiracy nuts think that no one would EVER talk about it EVER? Yeah...right.

Rick

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Let me put this into the simplest form possible.

We are told we are at WAR. A WAR started by using OUR OWN vulnerable air travel infrastructure----that BE the weapon, THEIR weapon.

If YOU were the Commander-in-Chief, would you now allow this same vulnerable system to now be once again fired-up?

Do you think CHIMPBOY even gets to this level of analysis?

Good day

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

On second thought Doc, I think we will deal with you first, as our campaign against those terrorists who would destroy our country will be more difficult. They present us with horrendous logistical problems whereas you require a much simpler solution. Traitorous vermin such as yourself do not deserve to live in this country so we will remove you with rapid dispatch. Don’t bother packing up your trailer, just jump into your AMC Gremlin and head due south. Just prior to crossing the border I will be waiting for you in person. There, I will give you the opportunity to call me CHIMPBOY to my face, if you have the balls to do so, which I seriously doubt. In any case, it will give me great pleasure to kick the living shit out of your sorry ass.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

How funny. Doc didn't mention what he is doing to help besides spinning more and more conspiracy theories. Boy, that is just odd isn't it?

Rick

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Isn't "Paulie" an Afghan name?

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Doc,

It was a rhetorical question. I said in the other thread that I DIDN'T want to rehash the past.

Hey, if makes you feel better to rant and rave about what WE did wrong, as though this is somehow OUR fault, instead of focusing on the real enemy overseas, go right ahead.

Don't expect me to play with you. I can't let this one pass, either:

A WAR started by using OUR OWN vulnerable air travel infrastructure----that BE the weapon, THEIR weapon.

This war was started by terrorists with no respect for human life. If they hadn't chosen our "air travel infrastructure," they would have chosen something else. If you will calm down for 10 seconds and realize that

(A) - we're dealing with determined, patient and well-financed fanatics who will stop at nothing and that

(B) - the only thing that will stop them is to end the policy of appeasement that has been such a dismal favor,

... you might get a free clue.

This is probably a waste of time, but I'll try again: the POINT of my rhetorical question was the same thing I told Cherri in that other thread: there is no point in rehashing who made which mistakes. We should LEARN from them and move on. Pointing fingers isn't going to help.

Finally, I almost wish Gore had won the election, because you would see that I, unlike you, would be supporting him 100% right now.

You live in a very dark, cynical and dismal place.

If it feeds YOUR ego to conclude that we're just poor, misled "sheeple" who just can't see Da Troof, then have right at it. But again: do not expect me (or most Americans) to play with you.

You'll be playing alone.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Aw geeze Stephen don't interject reason and stop a good girl fight we was just gettin used to the fun.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Shrub wants to PARDON THREE MILLION CRIMINALS

How could the HORRORS of the third world have arrived on our soil Tuesday? Reread the above for the overriding Globalist MENTALITY necessary.

Call me a nut. In YOUR WORLD, I am. Tuesday your world hit a wall.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 2001

Doc,

OK, you're a nut and your world won't hit a wall, because there aren't any in outer space.

(How's that?)

-- Anonymous, September 16, 2001

There seems to be some discussion of failure of leadership going on here and in the press.

It is often difficult, at the moment, to differentiate failure of leadership and inovative and new approaches. It really depends on the situation and the potential consequences of decisions made in that situation.

An example comes to mind. It was the 1970's. We were canoe camping in the UP [you Uppers from Michigan will recoginize this]. It was late in the year; probably Oct. The fowl were migrating in great numbers. I got up in the morning, washed-up and got ready to make a breakfest of eggs and fried bass. I looked up at the sky and it was filled with giant V's of ducks flying south. I counted 20 V's. There was number 21. That V was flying north. I have a picture of it somewhere. Based on the situation, I would consider that a failure of leadership. :)

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, September 16, 2001