We have a young buck about (8 mo. old) that seem's to be feeling bad.Took his temp and it was a little high 105 deg.His gums are pale looking.I thought I had read somewhere that this is a sign of worms. He has been laying around all day.I fed him some grain which he ate.He is drinking water.I haven't noticed any sign of Diarrhea. We wormed him on 4/29/01 with Cydectin. Should we worm him again? Thanks. Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 25, 2001

Answers

Depending on where you live he may need to be wormed again.In hotter areas you have to worm more often than cooler climates.Can you get a stool sample to the vet so you know exactly what you are dealing with ? The other thing is to look in the archives , Vicki has a lot of great info on worming goats.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 25, 2001.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2178/worms.html

Make sure and click on "Are your goats showing signs of parasties". Not a clue where you are from but though my bucks were wormed in May (right after we had our first big rains), they were wormed again in July since they were coming into rut, and were/are being used very heavily July, August, September and October. If folks aren't going to take a fecal in every couple of months, you just have to worm on some sort of a schedule, which also means you build more resistance to wormers, using it when you don't have to, it is also much more expensive to purchase wormers than it is to fecal. Now that he is anemic, with grey gums, he will not be of much value to you breeding this season, it will take him quite some time to build his red blood cells back up. B vitamins, Red Cell anything you can find to give his blood a boost will also help. With anemia they have no energy, lethargic, will have very low to no sperm count. Might be better to find a local mentor, someone with excellent stock, that you would be proud to have, and ask them their worming schedule, or if they fecal. If you are new to goats, using cydectin is a really bad idea. Nobody has been using this drug for any length of time, yes we know it works really well, but with all the problems Boer goats breeders are having with longevity in their goats, you have to worry about wormers and drugs they use. The liver has to filter the solvent carrier that Cydectin has since it is a pour-on, a solvent very close to DMSO. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 25, 2001.

I would also not feed him any grain unless he is eating hay/forage well, they need the fiber or the rumen will go off. I'd also suggest running a fecal, could be worms taking down his system, may also be cocci as they don't have to have diarrhea and are lethargic and pale.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 25, 2001.

Thanks I went ahead and wormed him again with Cydectin since that's all we have. We are somewhat new to goats and are trying to do the best we can.We sent in a fecal sampling to our vet last week.They came back clean. Thought we were ok but I know now we wern't.I will be buying a microscope soon so we can monitor them better.At $5.00 for each fecal test it adds up for thirty goats. On the Cydectin I was advised by the breeder that we bought the goats from that this was what she used.I will need to do more research on wormers I guess. I will not be breeding him this year.We have an older buck to use.I just don't want to lose him over my lack of knowledge.Vicky you suggested using vitamin B to boost his red blood cell count.Will water soluable B vitamin work or do I need to give an injection? What do I feed him if grain isn't good?That's is the only thing he seems to want to eat. Have you ever used Rebound?It was suggested that we use this.We know nothing about it. Thanks again Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 25, 2001.

Try to follow what Vicky said , she is better than any Vet when it comes to goats .If you have water sol vitamens use them .Try to get some redcell your local feed may have it .The other thing I can think of that may help him out is selinum with vit e ,it won't hurt.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 25, 2001.

Thanks Patty. We will try and locate some Red Cell tommorrow.Was wondering about Resorb.Will it help any? Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 25, 2001.

Jack, you would only have to fecal one goat in each pen once a month or every other month, not the whole herd. Just sit with a baggy in hand, like a glove, when someone poops, not the herd bosses, nor the youngest goats either, and quickly pick up about 7 pieces of poop. We do young goats, milkers, and bucks each month. Even paying my vet 5$ a fecal it is cheaper than buying wormer, let alone worming in this heat! And Skip is correct on the grain, and that is the biggest problem with alot of meat goat raisers, pushing the grain, first and foremost he should be eating roughage, hay and browse. Loose minerals and grain supplement the roughage, and even then you will have some roughage in the grain mix. I find it really hard to believe that he was free from cocci and worms on fecal yet he is anemic, and if this is true, I would be really worried, worried about why is blood count is so low, worried that some sort of damage to his liver has happened. Is your vet running the fecals or an assistant, you can also send your poop into the state vet lab for a very minimal fee. Are you using the cydectin at 1cc per 25 pounds and giving it orally? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 25, 2001.

Wish I only had to pay $5 for a fecal, we get charged $15 a sample (2 different vets charge this amount). If he doesn't like the hay you have, sometimes branches, etc. or real nice alfalfa (although you don't want to keep bucks on this it might help get him going). You may want to give some Probois or Yogurt along with the Vit. B.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 25, 2001.

I am not sure if the Vet did the fecal.It more then likely was an assistant. I will find out Monday.We did test from each pen.Several from the girls and one from our youngest buck (1 of three in a pen.)We were told they had no worms.He had been acting fine up until yesterday. I gave him 5cc of Cydectin 1 cc per 22 pounds. We have been feeding a little grain every other day about 1 pound per goat. Skip I will give him some Probois in the morning and I am picking some some red clover hay tommorrow I will give hime some of that. Should we give him a B vitamin shot? Our Vet here dosen't know anything about goats.I am not sure if he would know what to do either. Thanks again Vicky,Skip,Patty

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 26, 2001.

Hi again Jack. Unless he is simply laying in the hot sun and dehydrated because he doesn't have any umph...to get up and drink, even the anemia from worms and cocci, does not explain the temp. Does he have a snotty nose? Can you hear him wheezing in his lungs when he is breathing? I use Banamine to bring down fever, and fever is the big time when we use antibiotics. But without some more outward signs I wouldn't even begin to be able to guess. With fever, and at least a snotty nose or wheezing, plus because it is this time of the year, I would think summer pnemonia. Go and look him over again really well, listen to him (and he if smells as bad as my guys :) you will really love that I want you to put your ear down to his lungs and listen to him breath. Take his temp again, and also the temp of someone else his coloring and in the same area. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 26, 2001.

Vicki, I put some B vitamins in his water and he is drinking.Also took skips advice and got him some tree limbs (oak and apple) and he ate some of that.He also ate a little hay. I also gave him the Probios about 5cc. I will head out now and recheck his temp.and listen to his breathing and will also take the temp of another goat his size and coloring. He has plenty of shade but I have noticed him laying in the sun??? I thank you again. Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 26, 2001.

Vicki Checked his breathing and temp.His breathing sounded ok to me.He has a low moan as he exhales. His temp. is 104.9 i took the temp of our older buck and it was 102.2 I am using a digital thermometer. No wheezing or snotty noise.He does smell mighty fine though. We have some Banamine on hand I might give him a shot if his temp dosen't drop soon. I work away from home and am only home on the weekend.My wife dosen't know alot about goats either.I noticed in Hoegger catalog they have some stuff called Iron Supplement paste.I will order some in the morning before I head out to work for the week.My wife can admister it. I have to go and pick up 20 round bales of hay.I will be gone for a while. Thanks for taking some time out you busy day to help us with our sick goat. Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 26, 2001.

It wouldnt hurt to worm again. We worm every 3-4 months. I would worry about the fever. I would give him LA 200. 1cc for a pigmy or small goat, 2cc for young Neubian or medium goat, and 3cc for a large goat.Give 3 shots 3 days apart. Not over 3 shots.Bio-mycin or Oxy-tet would be even better. Fever means infection. Gray or white gums can be a sign of dehydration also. It is not a good sign. My vet says that is a sign that they are critical.Your Vet. will also give you free advice over the phone if he is a good one. Ours is very helpful. Also I use an injectable Vitamine B Complex. You can usually get it from any feed store for around $4.00 for 100 mL. I give 5 mL to my young Neubian. I would also feed him cheap hay. He deosnt need alfalfa. They like the stuff that horses wont eat. Grass, dock.....Alfalfa will actually make them bloat if they get too much. If alfalfa hay is all you have, feed your goats the hay in a feed sack. They will pick out what they want and leave the rest.Then feed what is left to horses or cows if you have any. I keep a mineral block with them at all times and give them free choice baking soda. Visit shaanendoah.com for advice also. Hope he is better by now!

-- the pooles (mpoole@link2000.net), August 27, 2001.

Jack, please visit the saanendoah.com site for your dosages, LA 200 is 3cc to 4.5cc per 100 pounds dependant upon how you choose to give it, and actually I prefer any other tetracycline but LA 200 for goats, and I use Tylan 200, over the counter or Naxcel from my vet, for upper respitratory. The moan/wheeze at exhale is actually how you judge lung function/asthma problems, so I would say you have some upper respiratory problem going on. Try to reworm with Valbazen 8cc per 100 pounds in case this is lungworm, and then use the antibiotic you choose. Please not penicillin. Give Probios the whole time you are giving the antibiotics. Is your wife going to be able to give shots? With Bio-mycin or Oxy TET 200 you can give them both under the skin. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 27, 2001.

Vicki, I gave him a shot of B complex this morning before heading out to work.I also ordered some things from Hoggers for building his red blood cell up. I don't think my wife is able to give him shots.I will have to work with her this weekend on giving shots.I am taking off Friday so I can get home and take care of him. My wife dropped off another fecal sample for the sick buck at the Vet this morning.I hope to find out this afternoon how it turned out. I am really conserned about our does now.Doing a fecal on a goat is no difference then doing it on a dog is it? Maybe I will have my wife call one of the other Vets in town.Their is only three or four. Thanks Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jack_m_65807@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Just got word from the Vet that the sick buck has worms and coccidiousis. Not sure how to treat Coccidiousis.Vicki I will check out the web page you advised The other buck in the same pen came back negitive. Thanks to all Jack

-- Jack murdock (jack_m_65807@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

He now has a positive fecal because of being ill. You really need to get the temp down, waiting 4 days is an awful long wait if it is pnemonia. Worms or cocci would not be that cause of his fever, or wheezing. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 27, 2001.

Vicki I ask my wife to call the Vet in the morning and have him come out and give the buck a shot for the temp. He is also bring out something for the coccidiousis. He told my wife that he did not like Cydectin so we will be changing wormers. Do you treat for coccidiousis? Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jack_m_65807@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Seems old to me for coccidia , but it is probally popping up due to another infection {weak system} Albon is one way to treat for it .I also use at least 1 bag of medicated feed {decox I think is added} If the vet is coming out he will have something to treat him with .For future look at your local feed or a catalog like Jeffers there are a few different ways to treat it .Good luck ~Patty

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 27, 2001.

Patty, I agree with you.What I have read about coccidiousis it seem's to be more of a problem on young goats.And the other thing that I have read is they have Diarrhea.He is showing no signs of Diarrhea. I hope the Vet gets out early and has what it takes to get him well. Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jack_m_65807@yahoo.com), August 28, 2001.

Cocci is in the gut of all goats, all the time unless they are on medications. The real problem comes in the fecal your vet ran, if I took poop from any goat in my herd, yes there are worm eggs and cocci occysts, does this mean I run our and worm and put them on sulfa drugs, no. It means I could on my McMasters slide how many eggs per part of the slide, ask you vet what kind of numbers he is seeing, anything over 200 parts per gram and we worm spring and summer, anything over 2000 parts per gram fall and winter and we worm. Cocci occyst numbers have to go into the thousands for diarrhea symptoms, but high levels will give damage to the intestine, anemia, unthrifiness, pot bellied look (we call them ethiopian goats) without one day of diarrhea.

Yes Jack we use prevention. Our kids are on a schedule of cocci prevention and wormed aggressively mostly it is because of where in East Texas we live, very few freezes, lots of heat and humidity. We say tongue in cheek, that we don't raise goats, we raise fancy motels for cocci and worms to live in! I like to use sulfaquinoxiline 20% mostly because you can get it yourself, and only needs to be used at 2cc per 50 pounds, given orally once a day for 5 days. Your vet will probably bring Albon or Corid, both are fine. Medicated goat feed is fine but do a little bit of research first. Most "goat" pellets are just glorified hog feed, full of animal by products, animal fat, animal protein and now we are hearing alot about Urea. If you can find a good goat food that has none of the above in it, plus has a cocci med, Decox, Lasalocid, Bovatec, I would never feed Rumensin though others do. The biggy is that you have to feed it. Most of these feeds you have no idea how much the goat should be eating! Ask the feed dealer what the drug is dosed at, does the 100 pound goat need 1 pound, 3 pounds? Doesn't do you alot of good to use a drugged feed with no information on it, which is exactly what most of them have! We are all pulling for your buck! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 28, 2001.

Just a note to say thanks to all.The Vet came out and gave him sulfa and rewormed him and gave him another shot of B vitamins.My wife says he is looking better. Jack

-- Jack Murdock (jrm@salemnet.com), August 30, 2001.

Glad to hear it !

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 30, 2001.