I really hope I don't come across as a whiney city-slicker who doesn't have a clue how to cut expenses but please hear me out.

I was born and raised in the city and have lived here all my life.(Please don't hold that against me.) My heart (somehow) came from the country. I long for the homestead life but do not have 100% of the support I need in order to make that dream a reality at the present. So for now I do what little I can to incorporate a little bit of country in to my fast paced city lifestyle. I have been "raised" with certain luxuries that I have become so accustomed to that I don't even "count" them as luxeries - they have become necessities. Some I may not even be aware of. You see, I don't know any differently. However, I WANT to "learn" differently. Does that make sense?

Presently our bills are close to $4,000.00 per month. I think this is outrageous and would like to cut back where I can. I know we spend and exorbident amount of money on food. I'm trying to stop the eating out and fast food all together but my husband eats at least one meal out everyday - usually lunch. I've tried making him a lunch to take to work each day but more often than not, it is just thrown away. The last trip to the grocery store cost me $430.00. We are a family of 5 with only 4 living at home at the present (but my oldest still eats some dinners with us on occasion.) Yes, I do buy chips, cookies, prepackaged cereals, juice boxes, deli lunchmeats, and some frozen entrees (I work full time and the evening meal is the most difficult for me although I do use my crockpot which helps). I make my son's lunch for school and I bring mine to work along with my breakfast everyday.

I go around the house turning off lights, t.v's, stereos, etc. that aren't being used. Hubby runs the tv continuously from the time he walks in from work until he falls asleep (usually in front of it) every night. Hubby also likes the house kept very cool (as he works construction and is outside in the hot Florida sun most of the day), so our a/c usually runs continuously. Last electric bill was $260.00 but this is not necessarily the highest it's been known to be.

Where can I (alone) begin to cut expenses? I'm ashamed to say that I've taken on the attitude (on occasion) that, "No one else in this house cares how much money we're wasting every month so why should I?" But I truly DO care.

I was wondering if anyone could post some "frugal living" websites that I might check out that could be helpful. I've tried the Tightwad Gazette website but it is STILL "under construction."

If anyone would care to respond to this post, I would greatly appreciate it. I will be prepared to accept your views no matter how harsh they might seem to me. Sometimes we NEED a lashing and I suppose I more than deserve it. ANY response is appreciated and welcomed.

Thanking you in advance.......

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), August 24, 2001

Answers

I think you are right that you have to look at what you can change for yourself and not worry so much about what the others do. I don't know any websites but might offer a few ideas. Since you are working, of course you want to keep meals simple. Still, I think it probably takes as much time and effort to go out to eat, or even to run out to the grocery store as it does to prepare something if you already have it at home. You might start by making a grocery list during the week as you see you need or want certain items, then shop only once. If you are shopping several times a week, you will be surprised how much you can cut down just by not going as often. Then stick with your list. Allow a few treats, but don't stock up on them (unless, of course, it's a "staple" for you and on sale.) Take the time to look at the ads. Around here, the ice cream, for instance, is buy one, get one free, probably one or two weeks out of the month. Why buy it when it's not? We buy grapes when they are 69 cents a pound, and walk by them when they are 1.99 pound.(You get the idea.)...When you have time(and energy) to cook, prepare enough of the main course for two or more meals, and freeze the extra for another day...Don't heat up the oven every day, and when you do heat it up, make the most of it..Bake a dessert or something at the same time you are baking the (extra large) main dish....Also, have you tried garage saling? If not, you'll be surprised by the things you can buy for next to nothing. I rarely spend more than a dollar or two for a "new" dress. To me, it's more fun and adventure than shopping the mall!(Don't know when's the last time I've been there!)..Good luck, dear, look around and see what you can do on your own. Talk to hubby about it as an adventure you are having and maybe he will eventually see it as a good thing. (Think positive) :)

-- mary (marylgarcia@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

Hi Greenthumbelina, I can understand what you are going through, we're trying to learn to live more simple too and tightening our budget. I did 'splurge' and buy 'The Complete Tightwad Gazette' book (it was only 19.99). And it has all of the newsletters she had put out over the years in it, very helpful. We are learning to buy in bulk the necessitities (i.e. sugar, flour, rice, noodles, etc.) and only buy meat that can be used in many different recipes, such as hamburger, sirloin, chicken, etc. We also buy lunch meat in the big bulk rolls(?), like ham and turkey and slice our own. And cheese in the big boxes and seperate and freeze. I go to the bread store and stock up once a month and put extras in the freezer (I LOVE my freezer, I NEED my freezer!). Twice a month we treat ourselves to a matinee at the moviehouse, when we want to watch a video, we wait until they are five-day rentals (cheaper). We don't have cable or satellite, only an antennae so tv is free. I home-school our two kids, ages 13 and 11 so we go to the library a lot(!) and use the internet, garage-sale and hit the sales at Walmarts for craft supplies. Even though we have a car, a van and a truck, we only use the car right now, the truck is in the garage to be worked on when the monies available. We stay at home, a lot! The best way to save money is to not go to the stores!! Hope this helps you some. Hang in there, every way you can figure how to save or cut down helps! Good luck.

-- yancee in texas (rnanning@comwerx.net), August 24, 2001.

I did little things tat saved me a lot of money and it was easy. Instead of getting 3 cups of coffee a day from 7-11 I bring a thermos. That saves me abot $90/ month. I use old gatorade bottles and make lemonade in. I freeze them the night before and they stay cold all day and keep my lunch cool so I save on ice also. That saves about $100/ month on soft drinks. You could put your air conditioning on timer and that could save some money. Treat your savings like a bill that has to be paid every month or every payday. After a month or two you will not miss the money you are saving. If your family will not help you out on this then do it on your own with bank account they do no know about. Good luck

-- ed (edfrhes@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

Hi Greenthumbelina.

I found three sites that might help you with the information you are requesting. I am not computer literate enough to give you a direct link, sorry for that but at least it is something to start with. These sites are

The ant. All sorts of cost cutting measures. www.frugaltips.4mg.com

Mommysavers. Tips for mothers on cost cutting for babies and children. www.mommysavers.com

Sneaky Kitchen. Tips on feeding your family with healthy food and snacks without them making faces at the "new" food. www.sneakykitchen.com

Hope these get you started and good for you on recognizing that having the money at your disposal doesn't mean you need to spend it.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), August 24, 2001.

Greetings,

I also work a full time job in addition to the everyday chores at home. It seems like our work is never done. One thing that has helped me to save when I grocery shop is to plan my suppers ahead of time. I made a list of suppers that we eat, including all ingredients. In the beginning of each week, I check the list to see what sounds good, I check the pantry to see what we already have, I check the sale paper to see what's cheap, and then write on the calendar what we are going to have each night. I then buy exactly what I need to complete each dinner. This way, the dreaded "what are we going to have for dinner" is done, the shopping list is complete and I don't wind up with 12 cans of cream of mushroom soup because I wasn't sure if we had any or not. Hope this helps, Charleen

-- charleen (harperhill@eznet.net), August 24, 2001.

One thing we did that made a big difference in our food bill is to make the kids & hubby buy their own snacks and sodas. I refuse to supply the household. It is amazing how much that cuts the food bill right there. We also buy beef by the side and that is much cheaper and better quality.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), August 24, 2001.

Bills totaling $4,000/month are not necessarily excessive "IF" you can afford it comfortably. If you can't afford it, or don't want to afford it, then begin cutting back. However, there's no sense in dumping a comfortable and affordable lifestyle that you worked hard to earn just because you read on Countryside that so-and-so can raise 10 kids, two goats, and a dozen chickens on $500 a month.

But, if you are going to cut back for some reason, here's a tried and true process:

First, you need to know why you have to, or want to, cut back. That will then determine the severity of your cutbacks. If the sole breadwinner in the home becomes unemployed without good prospects for future employment, you will need to cut back much, much more than if you just want to increase your savings rate from 10% to 12%.

Whether we like it or not, we humans only "need" the three basic survival needs, food, clothing, and shelter. That's why they call them "needs". And clothing may actually be optional depending on your environment. Consider the homeless, they've cut back to an extreme level. Everything above those three needs are really wants.

So, make a list of the monthly expenses you have that "directly" support the three basic needs. (Be honest with yourself. Designer jeans is cheating.) Those expenses become inviolate.

Second, make a list of the installment payments you have. These you're not be able to do much about because of the legal contracts. However, in extreme situations, you may have to let the car go back or lose the house.

Now make a list of everything else you spend money on each month. Not just the assorted bills you write at your desk or kitchen table on payday, but EVERYTHING you spend. This includes cokes, snacks, tolls, parking, tips, newspapers, donations at work, etc. We spend a ridiculous amount of money in small bills and change every month and most people have no idea how much it adds up to.

Now, you simply prioritize all these expenses against the desired level of trimming you want to accomplish. These things work best when you set a goal. So if your expenses add up to $4,000/mo, then set a goal to reduce those expenses to $3,500 or $3,000 or $2,000 or 0 or whatever level you need to, given the conditions governing this whole process.

In the end, it usually comes down to battles within yourself and with your family members as to which items are higher/lower on the priority list. A 13 year old girl will place a much high priority on cable TV with MTV than even food! So don't listen to your 13 year old girl when cutting back! They're not the parent and aren't paying the bills anyway. Therefore, they really have no voice in the matter. There again, it all depends on the severity of the situation.

Hope this helps.

-- Steve in So. WI (Alpine1@prodigy.net), August 24, 2001.

You might try a budgeting/reward program. Get your whole family involved and tell them this is how much money allocated to buy groceries and utilities. Any money left over will be used for a weekend vacation or a gift of your choice, etc. The first thing is to get them involved.

-- Russell Hays (rhays@sstelco.com), August 24, 2001.

Greenthumbelina, Bless your heart. I know exactly what you are going through. My hubby sounds JUST like your's. Saving, cutting back, tightening the belt, NOT him. You did not say how much of the $4000 was your house and car payment. You did not say how often you spent $400 at the grocery store. Your electric bill sounds about right. We are all paying $200 more or less in areas where a/c is a necessity. You are not going to want to hear my advice. But this is what I did about 12 years ago. QUIT MY JOB. Hubby got all the new cloths. He worked construction too and had to have high dollar boots ect. Hubby drove a new car. Had to have the MOST dependable car. Plus the fact that he worked out of town a lot. Which ment he stayed in motels and ate out. Our kids were all grown so didn't have school expenses and all the stuff kids need. You don't need a book or advice from us. All you need to do is stop spending money. Stay home and THINK about what to fix for dinner that you do not have to go to the store. If you have to work to make the house payment, your house is too new/big. Car payment, give it back. Hard to do? You bet. I am the origional been there, done that. Drove the Caddys and Lincolns. Wore the high dollar cloths and shoes. Hubby did not change his lifestyle. But because I did the changing, he was able to retire a couple of years ago. He is in the living room now watching tv. He will go to town sometime today. Goes everyday. Donno why. But he will think of something. Good Luck, I wish you well.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 24, 2001.

$4000 may or may not be high, based on what your income is. I think you need to break down your budget to a more detailed level then look at what you spend. Break out mortgague, insurance, car loans, insurance. Break out things that MUST be paid. home loan, car loan, utilities. Break down the reciept from the grocery store, What did you spend money on and what could go away? Break down credit card spending. This is usally where a lot of money is wasted. Look at car gas expenses. Look at every dollar that goes out of the house for a few months then you have a good picture of where your money is going. If its grocerys then find a differnet store, clip coupons, around here its swip cards to save money. Note coupons may or many not save you money in the long run. As far a turning off lights and TV's dont fight it now. The bulk of the bill is the AC and the difference from TV on all the time vs TV off all the time is minimal. SOmethign to work on but not now.

Frugal living is fine, but it takes buyin from everyone, It cant be force on everyone if money is available for a non frugal lifestyle. Also frugal living is not "CHEAP" living. Its not buying the cheapest foods, its buying the foods with the best value. Also not frugal living takes some time. You trade time for money. For example, yes you could save a few dollars a year saving shavings from my old soap, but is it worth several hours of your time to save them? Maybe or maybe not, If that time could be put twards a garden then I say buy the soap and weed the garden.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), August 24, 2001.

Thank you all for your responses thus far. I am going to make it a priority to devise a "plan" to cut our expenditures no matter what.

My reason for wanting to cut our expenses is because we always seem strapped for money. We don't have a large savings account, but I do contribute a small amount to it each week. Even though I do this, it always seems I must "dip" into it month after month to help cover the bills when we come up short. I'm glad it's there to dip in to but that is NOT why I started saving in the first place.

For the record, I do plan meals around sale items and I plan weekly menus and make a list of all the items I'll need to prepare and go with each meal. I also keep a list on the fridge so that when we are close to running out of an item, it can be added to the list and I can pick it up when I do my main shopping. This saves on running back and forth to the store too many times. I agree the fewer trips to the store the better. There is so much more potential to spend spend spend each time you enter a store.

I consider myself a fairly thrifty shopper when it comes to shopping for clothes, shoes and these types of needs. I'm not big on name brands and I purchase most of my clothing and shoes for myself and my young son at KMart, Target, and Walmart. My teenage daughter is alloted a certain amount of money with which to purchase her school clothes. If she wants name brand clothing, she understands that she will not get much of a variety. If she wants more than what we have alloted her, she must use her own money to make up the difference. On the other hand I am not always so thrifty when it comes to buying clothes and shoes for my husband. Not because he expects pricier things, I just like a better quality of certain things he needs like dress slacks, dress shoes etc.

I sure wish I had better luck at gardening so I could grow our own fruits and vegetables, but unfortunately this is not the case. Hubby is always teasing me that I spend so much on the garden to no avail. He never complains though because he knows it is important to me (and it's cheaper than going to therapy!! LOL)

Anyway, thank you all again for your suggestions. :o)

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

I don't know if this will help much in Florida, but I know it makes a huge savings in Minnesota. I routinely buy a case of compact flourescent lamps and replace all those bulbs normally kept on for any amount of time with these bulbs. It always cuts the electric bill by a minimum of 33% as compared to the bill I see when regular bulbs are used. Every little bit helps.

-- Sandra Nelson (Magin@starband.net), August 24, 2001.

First of all, let me congratulate you on your decision to make a life- style change. Change isn't easy but until you control your money, your money will control you.

I have collected a lot of websites and mark them as "favorites" so I can find them again easily.

mestern.net (this is a living simple website)

www.investinyourself.com

miserlymoms.com

homespun-ideas.com

organizedhome.com (this one is great - lots of forms & lists to print out)

users.aol.com/marylou/tightwad.html#about (this is the unofficial Tightwad Gazette Fan Club Home Page - not the Tightwad Gazette Home page)

cheeta.spots.ab.ca/~ics/home.html

I'm sure no one would consider you a whiney city-slicker. Homesteading is (in my opinion) as much a state of mind as a location. The fact that you're aware of your financial situation is a major step forward. We're all here to help each other.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Pay yourself first. Either through payroll deduction or when bill paying.

2. Never (repeat NEVER) shop without a list and check the unit price.

3. Track your spending. Not just big things but everything. Do this for one month. The act of actually writing down everything will make you more aware of where the money goes.

4. Spend only bills. At the end of the day, dump your change in a jar somewhere but don't count it for at least a month. I think you'll be very surprised. My grandmother always said: "If you take care of the pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves."

5. The best way to save is to plan. Menus are a great tool for having good meals without having to worry about what's for dinner.

6. Learn the difference between a "need" and a "want".

Hope these suggestions help. Keep us posted as to how you're doing.

Wishing you enough.

-- Trevilians (aka Dianne in Mass) (Trevilians@mediaone.net), August 24, 2001.

Get the book "Your Money or Your Life" not sure who it's by because both our copies are loaned out right now. It's a very practical guide. Also, start saving receipts and writing down exactly where and what you spend $$ on, examine this list at the end of every month and see what changes you can make for the next month. Cut your magazine subscriptions, cancel your cable (except maybe basic service) cancel any extras on your phone service, go to the library instead of buying books and magazines, shop for better insurance rates and for better interest rates on savings, empty and save the change and $1 bills out of your wallet everyday (can't tell you how much of a nest egg I've built up from this task), and the 2 most important rules we have: DON'T eat out and DON'T use credit cards (paying cash really makes it sink in) Good Luck and let us know which suggestions you used and whether or not it helps.

-- Rose Marie Wild (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), August 24, 2001.

I should have double checked those addresses before I posted.

The unofficial tightwad gazette fan club site should read:

users.aol.com.maryfou/tightwad/html#about

and when I tried the cheeta.spots site, I kept getting a "socket error". All the others seem to work, though, so hope you'll try them.

-- Trevilians (aka Dianne in Mass) (Trevilians@mediaone.net), August 24, 2001.

Belle - Our rent payment is $860.00 per month (which is considerably low for our area for a 3 bedroom 2 bath townhouse). Hubby's truck payment is $460.00 per month. A bit extravagant but he is on the road constantly and after 20 years of marriage, a new car and van for me (and the kids when they were younger), and two other cars purchased for our two older children, I felt he more than deserved to have something nice for himself for a change. Besides, we purchase the truck right after we finished paying off our van. The van payment was $430.00 a month (due to high interest rate caused by bad credit which we have since cleared up), so we figured the new truck would only be $30.00 more a month than we had been paying out for the van. Our oldest daughter is out on her own now and pays all of her own bills. We help her out if need be but have only had to do that once when she was in a job transition. For our younger daughter, we pay for her car insurance and she pays for her own gas. She also helps out with any maintenance/repair bills for her car. We pay for a basic cell phone plan for her and she pays for any difference when she uses more minutes than alloted on the plan. (Incidently, we got her a cell phone for safety reasons after our oldest daughter broke down on a dark highway coming home from work late one evening without a cell phone. She had no way of calling for help and I thank God a nice couple stopped to help her. ANYTHING could have happened.)

Also, I work b/c (1.) My income is steady (hubby works construction and we never know what we'll have coming in or what we're gonna get shafted out of - uh-um.....pardon my language) (2.)We get health insurance paid 100% through my job (something we haven't had in the 20 years we've been married and we're NOT getting any younger - LOL (3.) My job is right down the street from our house and close to my son's school (4.) My job is very flexible - I leave every day to pick my son up from school. I can bring him back to my office where he has quiet time to have a snack, tell me about his day and I'm right here to help him with his homework (I can also go on field trips with my son or go to different programs at his school that they might have during the day) (5.) No day care costs (6.) I'm usually alone in the office except for the owner on occasion and I have minimal contact (in person) with the public. I can wear jeans to work so I don't have to spend alot of money on clothes (7.)My employer has set up a mutual fund, a retirement fund, and gives good bonuses throughout the year (How 'bout $100.00 for your birthday! Then another $100.00 for secretary's day!) Also, my hourly rate of pay is more than I've ever made anywhere I've ever worked before (8.) Paid holidays and a week's paid vacation PLUS a $500.00 Vacation bonus and another $500.00 Christmas bonus each year. Last year it was a $750.00 Christmas bonus.

So you see.......with ALL these benefits, MY job would be VERY difficult to give up. Not to mention I thoroughly enjoy it.

Gary - I like your analogy of the soap shavings vs weeding the garden. I tend to do things sometimes that make my husband scratch his head and wonder about me. :o)

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

PS - Forgot to state that the $860.00 per month we pay for our rent includes water and trash pick up.

BTW - I love the saving change idea. We've done this for years and it's quite an eye opener when you actually sit down and roll it all up and count it out. I hate taking it in to the bank though - they always give you that "look!" LOL

These ideas are great! I'm going to create a special "folder" for all of them. I am anxious to get my "plan" on paper (or at least clear in my head) and get going with it!!!

You all are a great bunch - I don't know how I ever got along before I found this site!! :o)

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

So many great ideas for reducing costs. And the best ideas are usually those which work for others. Some expences are fixed costs, others are subject to discretion. But my experience has been that unless everyone in the house is equally committed to undertake the "effort" in like measure, it doesn't work. With the cost of electricity tripling in the past year, WE decided that the AC just had to be turned off. It comes on only when the inside temperature is unbearable. This cut our electric bill by an average of 43% each of the past 3 months. In addition, because the cost of propane double from $1.29 to $2.69 during the same period, we installed a clothes line to dry laundry. And we replaced our water heater with the in-line model Aquastar, following advice from some enlightened members of this forum. But, as it turns out, not everyone in the house likes their clothes dried on the line. They tend to be stiff. In fact, unless I insist, and then volunteer to be the one to hang it, it gets dried in the clothes dryer, inspite of the effort put out to cut costs. So you see, everyone in the house must be willing to make the changes necessary to be effective. I work hard at my job and also work a second job part time. My household can afford the cost of additional utility bills, but I fear my planet cannot. Therefore I'm doing what I can to reduce consumption. My home is also home to my family. Therefore my opinion is not the only one that matters. Everyone has a voice. So that means we all must compromise on some issues to achieve harmony as a family and cut energy costs. Still, I cannot tell you how many times I come home and find the laundry done, neatly folded, and the garage still hot with the exhaust from the dryer. I've caught on to the ploy: Do the laundry before the utility cop gets home and you find yourself wearing stiff jeans! Thats why my part of the compromise is to volunteer to hang the laundry. That is how I get what I want: solar powered clothes dryer. Bottom line: you have to do what works. And if everyone doesn't participate, it doesn't work.

-- Dwight (summit1762@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

thumbelina, WoW, Wish I had had your job. Would probably still be working. I was in sales. I had to get dressed up and get out and beat the bushes. Spent a ton wheather I made any or not. Hubby was "laid off" a lot. When the construction job was finished, they were laid off until another on came up in some other part of the country. After I quit working, we actually had our budget set on unempolyment. A whopping $300 a week. Sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. The kids DO grow up, not sure about hubby. The hard part is done. You have decided to take charge of your $.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 24, 2001.

P.S. If you really want to get serious about gardening, there are a lot of us here that has tons of experience. We would all be glad to help with free advice. However...... I do everything from the greenhouse to the pantry and doubt that I save any money. I do it because I was raised that way. Because it is healthy and taste better. I save more money hanging my cloths on the clothsline than raising my own tomatoes.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 24, 2001.

Greenthumbelina, I just happened to catch a portion of the Ophrah show one day this week (I hardly ever watch daytime TV but I was shelling peas!) anyway, she had a "financial guy" on there giving tips on how to save money.

He suggested lots of things that were good:

He said to write down EVERY PENNY you spend for a month and you'd be surprised at how the little things really add up! I think if you do it for 7 to 10 days you'll get a pretty good picture but by doing it for a month that should include all the "necessary" bills too!

He also told couples to quit "eating out" for their lunches if they work outside the home, to bag it instead! the same goes for not buying ANYTHING from a vending machine ANYWHERE because that's always lots higher than somewhere else!

Try to buy fresh foods at farmer's markets or from farmers so you can eliminate the middle man...you can do this even on saturdays if you work.

We quit using our clothes drier last January when it broke down and I won't let my handyman husband fix it. So we've saved on the electric drier costs from then til now.

Also, we are in the heart of the south but we're getting by without air conditioning this summer to save on our utility bills.

Other ways to cut are buy your and your kids clothes at second hand or consignment shops. There's a lot of great buys there...even for those who must dress "professionally."

The guy on TV suggested cutting out cable TV (to which most of the audience said "no way!" but he reminded that a lot of things we consider "necessities" now weren't even thought of a few years ago...like call phones....faxx machines...internet access...etc. He said it was a matter of priorities.

He also said a good way to save money is to never spend your change! At the end of each day chunk it in a bottle, jar, or drawer. AT the end of the month take that and apply it to credit card debt above what you usually pay. When you're credit card debt is paid off, use that "found" money for savings in an account or CD or something like that.

Utilize a crock pot a lot, or freeze meals in advance so you can just warm them up and you will be less prone to buy fast food or eat out!

You can be a homesteader at heart! suzy

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), August 24, 2001.

Oh, Greenthumbelina, no one with any sense or credibility will criticize you if they have any decency. I would love your job, if I had to work, tho! In your situation, I would keep the job, at least it is guaranteed income, unlike the construction. Would your family sit down to a "pow wow" and listen to your concerns about possibly saving money where you could all agree, "In case Dad gets laid off, so we can continue to live here, etc"? Maybe if you listed a few of the things you think the kids and hubby might be willing to try, and could show them at the end of the month or next month, how much you all have saved, they would be willing to try a couple more things, etc. I also tend to spend more on my husband's things, although he will wear shirts from the thrift shop if decent, etc. Kind of a consolation prize for putting up with me and the kids all these years, I guess! Maybe even put a jar out where everyone can contribute loose change and watch it grow, with the idea that it would be for something everyone wants--vacation, or whatever? Super glue the lid on and everyone agrees not to dip into it for ANYTHING. Sounds like you are doing what you can to personally reduce things, but it will take more than just you to make a difference. Good luck, and keep your chin up! Jan

-- Jan in Co (Janice12@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

This is my favorite subject!! Most of my relatives think I'm crazy for the way I economize but it works, and you can't really argue with success. On an income of about $20,000 per year, we have managed to build a house worth $150,000, own 16 acres of land, have 4 kids, 3 horses, 2 cats, 1 dog, 2 birds, and 9 chickens. Wow that is a lot to feed! I graduated 1st in my class and had full scholarships to college, however after having my daughter, I did not go back my senior year, so I could be with her. I have not regretted this decision. I decided to use my brain to think of ways to get by with less instead of how to make more. There is nothing you can buy that gives you the feeling of satisfaction that knowing you have enough money to cover you in an emergency. The peace of mind is priceless. Some hints I would give are: making a menu isn't enough!! What is on the menu is what counts. $6 a pound steak, or chili made with 1/2 pound of on sale ground beef??? You must cut the cost of each meal. I try to make all of our suppers cost less than $1 total. It can be done but you have to use your imagination. I wonder if you could actually buy a house cheaper than you are renting?? Many of my friends have told me they can actually save hundreds of dollars a month by doing this. Your payment will actually be a smaller portion of your income as the years go by: for example your payment may be $600 a month and will stay the same but your rent is probably going to keep going up. Try www.dollarstretcher.com It is a great site. Lots of money saving hints. It will take time to cut back everything. Try one new idea a week, or a month if you don't have time. Your husband will come around when he sees the money accumulate. Splurge on the Complete Tightwad Gazette and read it like a Bible. Honestly I read it out loud to my kids. They are all very conservative. My daughter (age 14) wouldn't even buy a box of tissues when she had a cold recently, said she would just use an old rag instead. My mom almost had a stroke, but I was impressed!!! Sorry for rambling on, but I see so many people in your situation. I do income taxes to make my share of the income and there are many people making 40 to 50 thousand plus without a dime in the bank. They are usually mystified as to where it all goes and when I tell them how much we make they are usually in shock. Hope some of this helps. My bills: electric $85 monthly, insurance $89 monthly ( includes house, 2 vehicles, life insurance) We could lower this but we carry very high amounts on liability etc... water $30, phone $25 ( I don't make many long distance calls) Internet $20 (one of our few luxuries! but it is such a help for research I feel it pays for itself) property taxes $110 monthly, trash $10 monthly, piano lessons for 3 kids $75 monthly during the school year only. Groceries about $200 a month. Misc items like cleaning supplies, paper products etc... about $40 a month. Gas about $80 a month for both of us. Feed for all animals about $40 per month. good luck!!

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), August 24, 2001.

The Dollar Stretch--has good banking and money info too

www.stretcher.com

Cheapskate Monthly--the Tips Viewer is especially good

www.cheapskatemonthly.com

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 24, 2001.

Greenthumblelina, So glad you ask this question. Soooooo many good answers here.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 24, 2001.

HI Greenthumbelina! We recently went over our expenses too! I had to quit soda and if I could do that, I could do more.. I would say it is very important that your husband understands your goals. What man would not want to cut down expenses? Show him those projections on an extra house payment every month or one extra a year. WEEKLY Family finance meetings keep everyones eyes on the target. At our last one we had the goal of finding ten ways to save money and four ways to make money. We were getting by fine, but we recently read a book that told us about getting the house paid off in one third the time.. just by increasing the payment a tad. The meals for under a $1 thread is a good spot. You know your family and where you could learn to shave money. Food? Entertainment?etc. Also, sticking to the budget is the hard part. Just set it in your head to do it and follow through. I keep the goal of "out of debt" in my mind. And when you mess up, just keep trying. If no one will make these goals with you then start a "rainy day" fund under the counter. I got that idea from my sister, and the fund has paid for pens, turkeys, rabbits, feed, etc. when we didn't have room in the budget. :o) Good Luck! ~Brenda~

-- Brenda (brenclark@alltel.net), August 24, 2001.

www.tightwadtess.com

-- DW (djwallace@ctos.com), August 24, 2001.

Greenthumbelina, you sound like you're on the right track. I do have a few suggestions. I try to plan one bean meal and one cheese meal per week. These meals are meatless, and therefore cost less. (There can be exceptions to that rule, so watch out.) A breakfast for dinner meal (such as waffles, pancakes and eggs, etc.) or Mexican cuisine (such as bean burritos or nachos) are easy-sells at my house.

Trying to get your family to reduce their video/audio time is the the negative way to go about energy conservation. Instead, try to lure them away with non-electrical activities. We have game night at my house each week and play games that night. The t.v. never gets turned on because we're too busy with our games. Also, puzzles have an amazing ability to lure people to them. In the winter, especially, we keep a card table set up as a puzzle table. When it's a comfortable temperature outside and not too buggy, serve dinner outside. After dinner try to get the family to take a walk together or do some other outdoor family activity. I hate the television but some people don't know how else to tune down at the end of a busy (and in your husband's case, physically demanding) day.

You could try taking picnic lunches to your husband and eating with him once or twice a week. My husband gets in work mode when he gets to work and interupting that with anything as silly as lunch is grounds for mutiny, but I have other friends who do this and it works. This would eliminate the bought lunches on that day or days.

Chip away at it. Don't expect miracles overnight. A goal that was recommended to me by a financial advisor was to have a minimum of 3 months of wages in savings as a cushion for emergencies, then to make sure your paychecks meet expenses each month and there is money to put away. Check with your bank to see if they can help in any way. Our bank offers a certain amount of automatic transfers free each week, so we have a set amount of money transfered from checking to savings weekly. I also deposit money in accounts for the children weekly, and each time I get $500 in their accounts I get them a CD (certificate of deposit, not compact disc!), which earns higher interest but requires a longer time of investment.

I had lousy luck with my garden until I had built up the soil well with compost. Now I do really save money with my garden in the summer and fall when I eat fresh produce. You should be able to do even more in your warmer location! You might want to work small with some container gardening. My Mom has lettuce boxes on her porch where she grows lettuce for her sandwiches and salads. She doesn't buy any lettuce all summer. She doesn't have to weed or worry about the deer eating her lettuce. She does fertilize and water it regularly.

Good luck, and try to make it fun!

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), August 24, 2001.

Greenthunbelina, About your unsuccessful garden. Have you tried going to a garden center with soil samples and the names of some of the trees in your yard to see if that might be a problem with why your garden may not be doing well? One of our neighbors found out their garden wasn't growing because they had a black walnut tree nearby and it killed everything they tried to grow. A suggestion there. Another one is go to Frugalmoms.com and there are many sights and links from there that can give you a lot of help. I also have been a avid reader of The Tightwad Gazette and know that the tightwadgazette.com has been under construction for a very long time. There are bread and roll recipes in her book that add to a meal, take very little time to make (one was quicker than a bread machine bread) and then there are Make a Mix cookbooks (check your library for all of these before purchasing them) Because you are so busy working and keeping house you can make mixes up ahead of time and save money that way by not having to buy them. I have used those books a lot. I save huge jars to store the mixes in like a bisquik mix that is cheap to make and is listed. You have a great start when the first thing is cutting the grocery bill. You said you have to go to savings at the end of the month. Is it possible to still put money into savings and have a "cookie jar" to stash a little extra cash so you don't have to use you savings that you can put a little extra cash in for emergencies or paying a bill that may come up unexpectedly. Believe we all have those. I divided my checks (2 a month) into four weeks after figuring out and paying the bills and then tried staying within that budget. That took me a little while, but it worked. I also only use charge cards as a absolute necessity and pay off one by one until you eliminate that debt and try not to use them if they are a part of your bills per month. Our air conditioner is at 80 when noone is home and at night after everyone goes to bed and don't seem to notice, I turn it to that again and also noone thinks to turn it up until we get home from work. That saved us some money and every little bit helps. You'll do fine and be sure to give yourself a pat on the back whenever you succeed in one of your goals. Jenn

-- (normaj3@countrylife.net), August 25, 2001.

If you have the freezer space and a timer on the oven: Make two casseroles--eat one, freeze one (or take a day to put together a dozen or so casseroles to freeze). In the morning, take out the frozen casserole and put it in the oven. Set the timer on the oven so that it comes on in time to have your meal cooked just in time for dinner.

You will have to "sell" your family on frugal living. As you cut your food budget, save all the cash for a month or so. Then bring out the cash, spread it on the table, and remark to whoever is curious how much was saved. Mention something special that might be done with it. Do the same with other areas of the budget. "Because I got these almost new jeans at the thrift store for $6 instead of paying $20 at Wal-mart, I now have $14 to spend on.... or save for...." By the way, my mother had a set budget for food each week. She saved all the leftover cash each week in some hidden location. In the fall, when a farmer in our church did his butchering, she bought half a cow from him with her savings. So we had our steak and ate it, too.

Whatever else you do, DON'T nag hubby. He will either come around, or he won't. Nagging him will only strain your relationship. Don't risk losing him in your efforts to save money.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), August 25, 2001.

re: stiff clothes - tumble for a few minutes on air (no heat needed) in the dryer. They'll soften up fine. If static is a problem, put a spot of liquid fabric softener on a washcloth and toss it in there with them for one to three minutes with the heat on.

Re: grocery bill. Find salvage groceries and shop them. Not all salvage groceries are the same. Some I wouldn't shop at all, some are good for canned stuff but not boxed, etc. I get cereal for $1.50 a box as opposed to near $4 at a regular store. Also, get a membership at Costco or Sam's. You'll save major money on bulk items like flour, sugar, and other items (milk is a dollar a gallon cheaper).

Re: Clothes. Secondhand stores, garage sales, sometimes laundromats. I bought 2 pairs of jeans, 4 nice nearly new sweaters, a couple of blouses, and 4 pairs of slacks for around $12 from a laundromat not too long ago.

Re: cooking at home. Get a deep freezer. Buy on sale and stock up. On the weekends, cook huge quantities, package a meal's worth, freeze it. Microwave/heat up during the week.

Gotta go now, I'm on time and half today and I've spent an hour reading the forums, silly me! I'll try to go into a little more detail later. Hope this helps some.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 25, 2001.

This is my personal opinion - SET THE TV OUT IN THE YARD. TV ads manipulate all of us to want and buy things we don't actually need and are even bad for us. I never realized how much until I got too busy to watch much tv. During any free time I have, I now find very few programs that will hold my interest. Once I stopped watching so much tv - that meant I wasn't seeing the commercials either. The difference in my attitude toward "stuff" was amazing. We still have our tv, but we tend toward programming and channels that doesn't include a lot of commercials - the good without the bad. I find these types of programs more informative and interesting than our previous diet of mind candy on the major networks. Oops, I'm starting to sound radical, better hush now. Good luck - cutting back on your expenses is a commendable goal and will be very rewarding.

-- Linda Al-Sangar (alsangal@brentwood-tn.org), August 25, 2001.

Ok here is a little tip that my mom taught me to save money. If you have a food alounce as far as the family is concerned that is where the money goes. You buy a dress tell you husband it cost 20 dollars more than it did, but never let on to anyone you have a little stash or they will find away to spend it. When my sister had a nice wedding my mom had her little stash. For the times we did not have med insurance and needed to go to the doctor she had her little stash. It was never a huge amount of money under 5,000.00 but it always got somthing that would be a hardship otherwize. The best thing she could have done with it would have been to put it on property but she always did for others and now she is still in a rented house. So is my sister. Learning from her everytime I go to buy something I tell myself do I really need that and the answer is usualy no. Do I need another plant for the living room do I need another cooking pot when I have more than I can get on 4 burners no. You get the picture. Well I cut our budget about 1,200 a month and now we own a house and 9 acres tho they are 5 mile apart. And my husband can go tell his boss to shove it because we can now live on about 1200.oo a month and that is what he gets for being retired military. The things his working check go for is savings and tractors, tools. Not alot so for the first time in our lifes we have no credit card debt. We may not have what the JONES have but you know what, we are happy life is simple and we sleep well. My big dollars that are a lux. to me are my 3 dogs. and between the shots they get once a year the heartworm pills they take once a month and there food the 3 of them run about 100. a month. They are worth every penny. Just remember when you spend it, its gone but if you spend it wisely it will last you a lifetime.

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), August 25, 2001.

Something I do with our food situation besides planning meals, freezing, buying in bulk,etc is that on Sat or Sun I'll cook up 5-10lbs of hamburger or chicken and cook it, shred it, blah blah. Then I just keep it in the fridge and use it throughout the week. For me it was the defrosting the meat and cooking it that took so much time in my meal prep. You can also do it with the veggies you might use(chop the whole bag of onions and only cry once). Buy the 5lb of carrots (or get them from the yard) and process them for eating.

I don't work but I do save change from checking pockets on laundry day, pennies on the ground, etc and keep it in an apple juice container. When I have enough I buy something for the house or myself that I wouldn't normally. It's my treat.

A few things my good cuban mother told me-

1. That dollar that you are about to spend, you will never see again. There may be another one just like it, but you'll never see that one.

2. My mom also work in a canvas awning factory and she would be puzzled at the people spending money on cokes and chips,etc while they only made $6 an hour. She would always tell me. I refuse to pay 50 cents a day for a coke. I'll save that money and buy the $120 dress shoes. (She also will keep those shoes for 20 years and they will ALWAYS look brand new. A joke around here is "You can take the girl out of communism but you can't take communism out of the girl.)

You probably won't be able to change your husband but the kids are moldable. You sound like you are doing well with your teenage daughter in that area. My Mom did the same thing with me and I can make money squeal as it leaves my hands.

Be of good cheer, you can do it.

Blessings Mrs G

-- Mrs G (gunnar@yifan.net), August 25, 2001.

Greenthumbelina, obviously this is a subject dear to the heart of homesteaders and wannabes! You have been given some very good advice. I especially like the one about not using credit cards and stopping and asking yourself if you really need something before you buy it. Only you and your family can decide what is important to you. You first need to set goals. Why do you want to save? Is it to get out of debt, to buy property, so one of you can quit work, retire early, etc. Once you have a goal, it is easier to do without and save money. It actually becomes a game after a while. I do not advise keeping secrets and money from your husband unless he just absolutely cannot control his spending. I venture to say, once he sees the results of saving and being frugal he will be glad to participate. But, once you have reached your goals, and you will, do not be afraid to spend a little "foolishly". Don't go overboard but life is too short to constant deny yourself every luxury if you can afford it. Chances are, after you've reached your goals, things won't be as important to you anyway but please don't forget to smell the roses! The most important thing is don't get in debt and if you are already in debt, make your first goal to get out of debt. That gives you a freedom you cannot imagine! My husband and I have saved and been frugal for the first 20 years of our marriage. We have property that is worth at least 4 times what we paid for it, we have a substantial nest egg, I have been able to quit work and my husband is planning to retire early. We can afford most anything we want now but the truth is, we don't want that much. Sometimes we have to make ourselves spend money when we remind ourselves we can't take it with us! Sure we will leave a nice inheritence for the kids but don't do without for that reason. No one gave to us and we are better off for that. It all boils down to attitude. Make goals, sit down and decide what is important to you both and when you start to see the rewards you will both be excited.

-- ugly (here@home.com), August 25, 2001.

There's a world of difference between what we need and what we want. Whenever I hear someone say they "need" something, I gently remind them that- Food, Clothing, and Shelter are needs. Everything else are wants.

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), August 25, 2001.

Greenthumblina - When I read your post, I had to go and give my husband a kiss! We made a joint decision several years ago to cut back and we haven't regretted a minute. Hopefully, as your husband sees how committed you are he will come around and join the game!

You have been given a lot of good advice. My 2 cents:

1. Check out the Tightwad Gazette books and "Your Money or Your Life" at the library. If you want to buy them after that, check out half.com.

2. Your library also probably has videos and CD's you can check out.

3. At the grocery store, it sounds like you are on the right track. You probably need to eliminate buying a lot of prepackaged stuff. For example, instead of buying juice boxes for your son, get a plastic sippy bottle and fill it with your own juice.

4. Definately cook as much ahead as possible. If you have older children at home, they should be helping with the cooking too.

5. Cut back on eating out. We have gotten so that most restaurant food isn't as good as what we have at home so we usually save our eating out money so that we can go to someplace really good.

6. If you have a lot of credit card debt, take advantage of the lower interest rate offers that you get. You'll need to keep track of when they are about to go up but it can save you a lot of money. Look for ones that offer the low rate for at least 6 months.

7. Take a look at your long distance bill. Is there a different company or plan that can save you money?

8. Compost - compost - compost!!! It sounds like your soil is the problem. Call your extension service and ask about getting your soil tested. They are cheaper than a garden center (sometimes free).

9. Find activites to do that are free. Go for a bike ride, watch for free concerts, check out library for lectures or movie showings.

10. Don't go shopping unless you need something and make sure it's something you need and that you can't put off, borrow, or find a substitute for.

11. Do you have a day old bread store near you? Most of the bread in ours has several days left till the expiration and is good for a while after that. When it gets stale, it's made into croutons, frozen for later use in stuffing, or toasted.

12. Check out a different ISP. If you are on the regular AOL plan, it is one of the most expensive out there.

13. Absolutely, decide what your goal is and have lots of smaller goals along the way!

Good luck and God bless!

-- Cindy in NY (cjpopeck@worldnet.att.net), August 25, 2001.

Congrats, of course. If no one wants to be in on your frugal (mis- used word)efforts, do it yourself. What ever you save, is yours. Treat yourself to a vacation, or a day at the spa, full works. When they ask where you got the money for it, just say, I am frugal, if you wish something special I guess you'll have to be frugal too. They might be put out, but just smile as you walk out the door.

Before you plan your meals, ask everyone what they want for dinner and what night. Then plan their version. Then plan your version, using the ads and coupons. Then show them what their dinners will cost. Then, say "now I have an alternative version. If we agree on this for out meals, in say, six months we will have enough for a trip to......(wherever).

Showing them, with them making the decision worked for my family, I have four children, now grown, they are now frugal with their own money.

Also, if they can't agree on this another alternative is to get them where it hurts, THEM. By this I mean, pay your bills, without dipping into the savings. What ever is short, say $250, will come out of each and ever ones own personal expenses. Husband will be short his amount, and children theirs. If they say they HAVE TO HAVE THIS OR THAT, just say its now their, I guess next time you will have to stay within your budget and figure what is not a neccesity. I am not a loan agency. Maybe the other members of the family might have some to loan. If you stick to your guns, in two or three months, they will realize that Mom is not backing down,PERIOD. Of course grumblings and thunder are discerning, but will usually go away when they realize, it is them that is suffering. After all, you have enough for your expenses, YOU JUST SAVED.

Good luck, and let us know how all of our suggestions worked out.

Sister in the battle. Annie

-- Annie Woods (annie1ej@cs.com), August 26, 2001.

re:  credit cards - get rid of them and save even more money!  Never pay credit card interest.  If you saw a guy on the street in an Armani suit and a BHS tie with a sign saying "Please help me support my mistress in Bimini" would you give him hundreds of dollars (thousands even) of your hard earned cash?  That's exactly what you're doing when you pay credit card interest.  My son is taking a high school business class, and the teacher stood there with her Barbie smile telling me how she was going to teach the kids how to apply for and "properly" use credit cards, how to make monthly payments.  UH UH, the only "proper" way to pay a credit card bill is in total, every month, with no interest accrued.  If you can't do that, DON'T HAVE THEM (I don't have them).  I feel strongly about this as you might be able to tell.  Credit cards are the main underpinning of the new "company store" - "Sixteen tons, what do you get?  Another day older and deeper in debt, St. Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go - I OWE MY SOUL TO THE COMPANY STORE!'

re: long distance - I got rid of my long distance service totally.  I don't even pay the monthly access fee.  I use a phone card I buy at Sam's for 4.1c a minute.  I've seen a few with lower rates, but they all require credit cards to buy them (gotta get me a debit card one of these days).  BE CAREFUL when selecting a phone card - many advertise 1.9c a minute, but they charge a whopping great fee with each and every use (which comes off your card balance) so the effective rate is much higher.  My card has no per use fee except for the one required by the feds when you use it from a pay phone.  This varies somewhat depending on location (or maybe the company that owns the pay phone).  It is usually 3 to 6 minutes, effectively between 12c and 24c to use the card from a payphone.  My card has no other usage surcharge.

Re:  day old bread stores.  Great way to save money and still buy pre-packaged junk while you wean your family off the (*shudder*) twinkies and little debbies.  Most have special sale days, and they give you cards they punch every time you buy.  Then you get some free stuff when the card is all punched.  I get bread (crappy squishy white bread) 6 loaves for the dollar, sometimes 8, never more than a quarter apiece.  I get wheat bread 2 loaves for a dollar, sometimes less.  Paid 50c the other day for a 2 lb bag of powdered sugar mini donuts.  I use the wheat bread for sandwiches, the white bread for milk toast (heat milk with butter, toast the bread, break it up into a bowl and pour over the hot milk.  We ate it all the time when I was growing up instead of cereal.  I don't know anybody else who does this, must be something peculiar to our family I guess)

Re: rent - I don't know your age, but paying rent is pouring money down a hole.  If you DO manage to cut expenses and save some money, the best thing you could do with the money is NOT a Cozumel vacation.  It's buying a home of your own.  Like somebody said, "They're not making  any more land."  My son's guitar teacher is in his 70s (so is his wife).  They have worked hard all their lives - and are still working hard.  Why?  Because they never, where ever they lived, owned their own home, they always paid rent.  Now, in their 70s in retirement, they are paying on a little plot of land and a mobile home and still working every day.  Good people, but if they had bought a home when they were younger, when they retired and moved back here they'd have had a nice nest egg to buy something here, and wouldn't have to be working so hard now.  Paying rent seemed cheaper at the time, but in the long term its far more expensive.  Just something to consider.

Re:  lunches.  If your husband is throwing them away, maybe its because he doesn't like what you're sending.  Maybe its laziness or pig headedness too, but maybe he just doesn't like what you're packing.  Cold bologna and mustard sandwhiches aren't all that appetizing (I don't know that's what you're packing, but that's what we ate almost every day for lunch when we were kids).  I cant' begin to suggest alternatives, but basically if you want him to eat a packed lunch, you need to send something tempting to work with him.  Is there a microwave where he works?  That would broaden the lunch horizons quite a bit.  There are hot-food thermoses, you could fill one (or two) with his favorite soup or casserole.  Make him a Dagwood sandwhich to go along with it.  Pack a piece of New York Style cheesecake in there for desert.  Or whatever is to his taste.  This could be a toughy.  My son doesn't want to pack a lunch to school because the other kids make fun of him.  It's my experience that most adults don't move past the school lunchroom stage no matter how many years roll by them.  There's also the social factor to consider - maybe he's going out to lunch because all his friends do.  This is an area you won't make a lot of headway in unless he decides to motivate himself.
 

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 26, 2001.

Besides air conditioning, a dishwasher and electric water heater are major energy draws. Your family may revolt about not using the dishwasher, but consider having a timer put on the water heater. Set it to come on only a couple of hours in the morning and again in the evening. Its cost should be recouped in a month or two. Also, look at where it is set. Unless your are washing diapers, 120 degrees should be fine for other uses. This is simple. There should be two plates on the side of the heater. Take both off and separate the insulation. You will see a small dial with temperature settings. Use a screwdriver and adjust the setting on both downwards. If you are squemish, cut off the power first. If you don't tell your family about it, they probably won't even notice.

I agree on the concept it is better to buy than rent long term. You are building up your landlord's equity, not yours.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 31, 2001.

I agree with using the money you save on yourself (or some other worthy cause that you decide upon). If no one else is being frugal, you will eventually resent being the one cutting back all the time. Consider it asset re-allocation.

I disagree on not having credit cards, unless you NEVER rent cars or NEVER make reservations (hotel, travel) by phone. It is nigh onto impossible to do either one of those without credit cards these days. That said, I do agree that the right way is to pay it off every month. Also, we do not charge unless we know we could also pay by cash at the time of purchase.

Another thing to keep in mind is that unless you are buying big ticket items, you do not get cash discounts at most places. I know--I've tried. The supermarkets sure won't do it. So, you might as well have a card, get the 20-day free loan, have a record of your transactions, and get any money back or discounts the card companies offer. Finally, you may know that insurance companies are looking at your credit reports to help determine likelihood of claims and charge premiums accordingly, so responsible use of credit helps. Just my take on it, since I too would also do without cards if I could.

I don't think that teens should have a credit card under any circumstances until they are out of the house, and definitely never one under your account. The "emergency" scenario often used as justification--pure bunk. Carry emergency cash, and a AAA card, or be under the towing plan on your insurance.

Hope this helps.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), August 31, 2001.

One thing that just may impress your hubby enough to join you, is if you pay yourself the difference bwteen $4000 and what your bills have been trimmed down to each month. Then at the end of three months, show him the wad of cash you earned by your lone efforts. Tell him you would like to use it to open a savings acount for a dream you both share.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

On buying a house, consider a monthly payment of $850 would allow you to buy a house in the $125,000-$130,000 range at 7% interest. While you would have some additional costs (homeowners insurance - you may have apartment renters now - water/sewage, taxes, lawn care, upkeep, etc.) you would also have about a $8,500 tax write-off the first year for the interest cost. Say you are taxed at 30%. That works out to about $2,500.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 31, 2001.

re:rent.

No, I disagree with whoever it was who said paying rent is like pouring money into a hole in the ground. Remember that if you owe the bank, you are paying them rent (interest) on the money you borrowed in the form of a mortgage. Over the course of 30 years, a $50,000 house would cost you $150,000 actual dollars out of your earnings.

Far better to rent below your means, and save the difference between that and the house payment you could afford, and then buy that house with cash. For instance, if you make $48,000 a year, and could conceivably pay a house payment of $1000 a month, go find a house for rent for half that amount per month, and stick the other $500 in the bank. Use your money to get interest FROM the bank, instead of the other way around! Once you get your "own home" savings account growing, it will be surprising how you will be able to add a little extra from here and there to it, just to see it grow faster! It is possible to buy that same nice house within ten years with CASH!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

Daffodyllady:

Please note that same nice $50,000 house in ten years will probably be priced at $100,000, if not more. Bank saving accounts pay awful interest rates, like 1.5 to 2 percent. Besides, I don't know what prices are like where you are at, but locally, and we are a rural area, $50,000 won't get you much.

In my example, the federal taxes saved (since FL has no state income tax) of $2,500 would basically make three mortgage payments. Yes, you are paying the bank the interest, but you are also building equity from the get go and realizing the increase in equity from appreciation.

Greenthumbelina may be able to use homeownership as the incentive she needs to get her family involved. For example, the family sets a goal to reduce expenses enough to put $15,000 in a special account for a down payment, closing costs, etc. within the next two years (at their income level, not unrealistic). They everyone has a goal to work toward by reducing expenses. Chances are those will be lasting lessons when they are finally able to move.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 01, 2001.

Just some numbers to consider on homeownership versus renting:

Assumptions:

On a house/land purchase the mortgage value will be $100,000 at 7% fixed for 20 years.

The house/land will appreciate an average of 5% per year compounded. No major improvements are made or repairs required.

Current rent is $840 and it will increase an additional $20 every other year.

The income tax bracket is 30%.

Over 20 years one would make $186,072 in mortgage payments, of which $86,072 would be interest. That interest would have saved in the neighborhood of $23,250 in federal income tax (plus any state income tax savings).

The house/land will have appreciated to $252,693 for an increase in value of $152,693.

Total rent payments for 20 years would be $220,800, of which you have nothing to show but rent receipts.

In 20 years one would have a paid off house/land worth $252,693. After than, monthly income essentially increases $775.30 since no payments are required.

These are ballpark figures but do give a general idea of the value of homeownership over renting.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 02, 2001.

Home ownership is not for everyone. Other things to consider are 1) are you a homebody? 2) are you handy fixing things? If the answer to either of these questions is no, renting might be better for you, or a mobile home in a nicer park or on your own land. If you travel a lot on business and/or pleasure, a home can be a big pain. If you aren't handy, you are at the mercy of dishonest repair personnel that charge an arm and a leg. Even when you CAN do the repairs yourself, sometimes there are other things you'd rather do, and you pay for that convenience. This is why it's called "HoMOANership". lol

Also, while you can guarantee that rents will go up over time, except in the few cities with rent control (and rents are still quite high even there, and you will pay more when you move), you cannot guarantee that your house will go up in value. Even if it is up now, that doesn't mean it will stay up. Unless you are living somewhere in San Francisco or some other touristy spot, your house value could even go below what you paid for it. Even in the SF bay area, houses have lost $100,000 or more in value, due to all the dotcommers and others being laid off. Your mortgage payment doesn't go down, either. You're stuck, and if you have to sell in a down market (lost job, illness, whatever), you could be stuck with the difference.

If you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad (quick read, the essentials could be boiled down to a magazine article) the author pretty much says that for most people, houses are NEVER an asset, they are always a LIABILITY, because most people never pay them off--they trade up, and also trade up to a new mortgage as well.

Another recommendation: do you have any solar-powered attic fans? They could make a big difference in your cooling costs.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 02, 2001.

Re: credit cards as a "needed" item.  No way.  Get a debit card.  They look just like a credit card but the money comes directly out of your checking account.  Personally I NEVER rent a car and only rarely make hotel reservations, I don't travel.  But if you happen to need to make hotel reservations (and I HAVE actually made hotel reservations without a credit card) or rent a car, get a debit card and use that.  NOBODY "needs" a credit card.  Number one thing to do, separate "needs" from "wants".  My son is taking a business class and was appalled that the teacher even asked this question.  "List 3 needs, and 3 wants".  Simple, he sez - needs are food, shelter, clothing.  Wants are anything else.  Stereo equipment,  games,  DVDs.  "Need" does not go with "credit card".

As for using the card as a 20-day "free loan" - risky.  And uneccessary.  I am not a bank.  And not too many of us are getting interest on our checking accounts.  Those sorts of accounts generally require very high balances (on the order of several thousand dollars) and I can get better return on that money in a CD or even a regular bank savings account.  Its silly to have a credit card and use it constantly to make ordinary purchases.  Just don't have them and you won't be putting yourself at financial risk.

You CAN do without a credit card.  I have been credit card (and debt) free for 10 years, and seven of that was still in Yuppie Hell with constant requirements for business trips.  I took lots of business trips without the use of a credit card, made hotel and plane reservations, and used a debit card (Visa, but a DEBIT card) to reserve rental cars.

Re:  "Home owner ship isn't for everyone"  -  it sure is if you don't want to be 70 years old and STILL paying rent.  Not "handy"?  Hey, its not rocket science.  Learn.  This IS a site for homesteaders and the self-reliant, isn't it?  It was last time I checked.  I'm a 40+ year old ex-programmer, female, building my own house.  If I can build an entire flipping house BY MYSELF I think Joe Average can manage to figure out how to fix a leaky faucet.  Otherwise, as has been pointed out, complete with calculations to show how you come out, a family is far, far better off to own than to rent.  The sooner, the better.

In an urban area, rent will go up a whole lot more than $20 ever other year. And while your house may not increase in value over the short term, it most definitely WILL Increase in value over the long term. Are we planning for the future, or reacting to short term stimuli? If the former - buy a house. If the latter - be prepared to be dancing to somebody else's tune for the rest of your life.

I'm not kidding, my son's guitar teacher and his wife are in their 70s and STILL working every goldurned day and just scraping by, because they listened to folks who thought the way some in this thread do.  If they had bought a home, at the end of 30 years they would have that home free and clear, and could have sold it and bought something free and clear down here when they decided to move home.
 

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 02, 2001.

HOW MUCH IS YOUR PEACE OF MIND WORTH? If you own your own house, no one can make you leave, you have the security of knowing there is a place somewhere in this world you can call HOME. I have known many people who fell into the "rent trap" and 99% regret it deeply. Also if you are taking the whole 30 years to pay off the mortgage, you probably aren't trying hard enough. Throw any extra money onto the principal and watch it disappear! Bonus money from jobs, gifts, rebates, coupon savings, raises you receive, tax refunds etc... You won't miss this money and for the first several years only a very small portion of your payment applies to the principal of the loan. I have seen instances where people paid $8000 a year and only paid down the balance $800. So if you can pay an extra $800 it is like making your payment for the whole year. Get an amortization schedule from your bank, or go to a mortgage calculator on-line and punch in the details of your own loan. You can find out exactly how much of your payment this month went toward the principal. It will probably shock you. Almost everyone can pay a little extra, maybe you give up drinking a pop a day (could save you up to $30 for 2 people), maybe you stay home 2 times a month instead of going out to eat ($40 savings there), maybe you hang out 5 loads of laundry a week instead of using the dryer ( save another $10 -electric company sent a brochure this week saying cost of drying one average load of laundry was 50 cents...) maybe you eat 2-3 meatless meals a week ( save another $20). These are just examples based on my own experience, you can look at your life and decide what you can do to come up with the $100 I just came up with. These are relatively simple things that anyone can do without buying any special equipment or losing any quality of life. I do all of these things plus about a 100 more, and we live a $100,000 life on less than $20,000. I know this is true because I know people who make that much and they have more stress, less time, less fun, and more head-aches than we do.You sit down and HONESTLY examine your life and make the changes necessary to purchase the greatese thing of all: YOUR PEACE of MIND!

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 03, 2001.

Ok, everyone has had some good ideas, as well as some that aren't too practical for you. Yes, ownership gets you something for your money, but some don't realize it usually takes a downpayment to purchase if you don't qualify for special programs, GI bill, etc. If you are struggling to meet monthly payments now, you may not have the downpayment, but by saving a while, you may get enough to purchase your own home. True, you need to consider that if the furnace breaks down, roof needs replacing, etc, you can't call the landlord. Seems like on an earlier posting, you mentioned you lived in a townhouse in Florida, and were concerned about how to garden and compost in the flowerbeds, etc, if I remember correctly? Even in containers and small beds you can generate enough produce to help on the food bills, and feed your family great tasting veggies. Not any easy answer if your husband and children won't cooperated, but maybe with enough incentive, i.e. saving enough for a down payment on a home of your own, they would be willing to give it a try, small steps at a time. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress! Jan

-- Jan in CO (Janice12@aol.com), September 03, 2001.

IMHO debit cards are worse than credit cards because unless you are the ONLY one using the debit card and writing the checks (in other words, keeping track) it is all to easy to wind up with mega bounced check fees if someone else (like a spouse) is using the debit card too. Also, some places charge transaction fees on the debit cards.

If I can get a discount for cash, I pay cash--if not (which is the case with most places), I use the credit card and get money back. Shop around for banks/credit unions that pay interest on checking accounts--they're around. Maybe not locally, but there are internet banks too. Minimum balance requirements can often be waived if you have direct deposit, or are as low as $1000. Either do a simple budget on paper, or keep track of what you spend in a notebook, or invest in Quicken or another money management program to help keep track of expenses and assets.

The reason I mentioned extra cash and a AAA card, is that you could get stuck out where people don't use debit OR credit. Only money talks in those situations.

If you pay off your card every month, you are not in debt. It is the same as a net-30 bill. If you have the card through your local bank with telephone or internet banking, you can simply transfer the funds from your account and save a stamp too. In many areas you can even pay your utilities with credit cards--if you have a card that gives you money back, you might as well...

Credit cards are not a need, true, but like a washing machine, they can sure be useful.

We wait and pay for our cars with cash--interest is too high and not tax-deductible.

Another thing on house loans. From what you said your bills are (and from all indications you are paying them on time) a GI loan may or may not help you buy a home. Most real estate agents will tell you that if you have the income, you might as well go with a conventional loan because you can often get better deals on the interest and it will close faster. The GI loan has a lot of paperwork and extra inspections to protect the buyer that can cause the loan to be tied up for 60-90 days.

Another thing to think of concerns rent and how and why it goes up or down. Any honest landlord will tell you that it is cheaper to keep old renters than advertise for new ones and have vacant property. Most landlords I know (in an area where people usually move out of rentals in less than a year) do not raise rents until there is a new tenant. Easier that way.

For people who live for years in the same place, it depends on 1) what the market will bear, 2) whether there is rent control (people tend to stay longer if there is since they can't get forced out except for cause) and 3) the person owning the property and his/her financial situation.

Depending on the area, you can sometimes find someone who will rent fairly inexpensively to you if they know you will keep the place up. Why? because in some cases, the property is all paid off, and all the owner is really interested in is keeping the place occupied. Other rental property, on the other hand, is mortgaged to the hilt, and you, the renter are making the payments.

Do you ever see signs saying "1st month free" or "free appliance (TV, microwave, etc.) on move in"? Soft rental market. You probably won't get an increase, or a small one ($5-10 per month) because if it is too much you'll move. But then there is the inertia thing to consider-- moving is a pain anytime, and landlords know that. Low vacancy rates mean a tight market, and the owners will charge accordingly, except in the aforementioned rent control areas.

It might be a little harder for you, being a family, but some people rent for their own needs, and purchase a property to rent out for several years until it is paid off, then move in. Or see if you can buy a duplex or 4-plex and rent out one unit to your oldest. Since your husband is in construction that might really appeal to him because the rents coming in will pay for your house expenses.

There are always other options....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 03, 2001.

Homeownership: we bought our first home 2 years ago. It is rewarding in seeing improvements made and not having to deal with a landlord. We just received notice that the town is going to put a lean on our property, however, because the former owner did not pay his taxes, despite the realtor guarenteeing we would not run into that problem. We maynot have a landlord, per say, but the town law still hangs over our heads. Mortage company also sold out so we got a new one and in the transfer they misdirected some of our payments-that was a mess to clear up. Harder to move if you don't get along with neighbors as well (fortunately my problem neighbors moved-yeah!).

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), September 03, 2001.

I just want to say how darn lucky we are! We have been renting here for going on 12 years. The rent started at $50.00 a month & is still $50.00 a month. :-) We live on a gorgeous farm. An older farm house, but we have fixed it up & maintain it well. We exchange some labor for the cheap rent, but overall, we do nothing more than if we owned it. I am allowed to keep whatever animals I want & basically do what we want. Our landlord died almost 3 years ago & his daughter inheirited the place. She has left things just as they were with her dad. So, renting is not always bad! We have told her if she ever decides to sell, we want to buy the place. But, for $50.00 a month, we are not pushing to buy because we can rent far cheaper than what a mortgage would cost us. She has also said she does not want to ever live here, so we are not worried about her moving in & kicking us out. Gotta love her!

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), September 03, 2001.

I have purchased my first home and would never go back to renting. But, I sure miss being able to call the landlord to fix stuff like the water heater, busted pipes, etc. It has been an added expense I hadn't considered.

-- Nancy (NAWoodward@lakewebs.net), September 03, 2001.

"First month rent free" is not always a sign of a "soft" rental market. It's routine to see apartments advertised this way (or a year's free cable or something like that) even in low vacancy areas. Why? BECAUSE THEY CHARGE SO DANG MUCH RENT THEY CAN AFFORD TO GIVE YOU A FREE MONTH!!!

I lived in Portland, OR for 3 years. Apartment complexes don't much like to move folks in and out, but try renting a house. I was paying $1200 a month, and not one single landlord would give me even a year's lease. Not one. In fact, my landlord forced me to move after two years, telling me he had decided to sell the place (he lied, he moved his kids into it).

My 81 year old father and stepmother rent half of a duplex in Sidney, Ohio. They live quietly, care for the yard, the place is spotless, and they never throw wild parties. Pay their rent on time every single month. Couldn't ask for better tenants. Sidney is not exactly a big urban area, like Portland or (*shudder*) San Francisco, yet their rent has risen every single year. They regret not having bought a place now.

Saving for a down payment - many lenders don't require huge honking downpayments. Naturally, the bigger your down payment the better loan rate you can get (and the less interest you end up paying). Yeah, you have to save up for a down payment, but even when we were living in Portland and I was paying $1200 a month rent, I wasn't spending $4000 a month. Folks can economize and save, and invest in their future, or they can keep on living like the grasshopper and end up in the boat my son's guitar teacher and his wife are in now, in their 70s and still working away. (No offense to the original poster, or to the guitar teacher and his wife, who have been like second parents to me.)

Debit cards that have "fees" - I've never ever been charged a fee to use a debit card, and when I had one I used it extensively. If the debit card you are considering comes with fees attached, DON'T GET THAT ONE. Find another. Just like some credit cards come with fees attached, some don't. It's not rocket science.

Saying two people using a debit card might overdraw your checking account so you shouldn't get one is specious. If you're sharing a checking account, you're sharing a checkbook already. There is no greater risk of going overdrawn with a debit card than there is of going overdrawn because somebody forgot to write down a check. You write the debit down in your checkbook when you use the card, just as you do (should, anyway) when you write a check. No muss, no fuss, no bother. And if you can't control/track use of a debit card such that you don't end up overdrawn, then how the heck are you going to control/track use of a CREDIT card that has to be paid off at the end of the month if you don't want to end up paying interest on the unpaid balance?

Internet banking - you have got to be joking. You know, when I was considering buying the 40 acres south of me earlier this year, no Internet or out of state bank would have even considered loaning me the money. I could have gone down to any of several local banks, where I know someone by name, and borrowed the money, though. (Which I didn't do because I don't NEED the land and I'm pretty darn happy being debt-free, and aim to stay that way)

Do they pay the "best" interest rates? No, but they don't pay subpar interest rates. When you're always jostling for the main advantage, don't be surprised when the out of state bank you are dealing with shows you the same sort of behavior. There's a lot to be said for dealing with people you can see face to face.

If you can use a credit card and ALWAYS pay it off every month, well more power to you. Really. Unfortunately that's not the way it works for the vast majority of people who have them (if it did, you'd be paying fees for the privilege of using that card because they wouldn't be making any interest money off of you - in fact many lenders are charging fees to folks who don't run a balance.) There is no good reason to be farting around with a credit card, especially when one's household is already teetering on the edge (income matches outgo). The temptation to let that balance slide is akin to flirting with disaster. If you can do it and get away with it, hey, good for you. But the vast majority of people can't, or at least don't. Convenience doesn't even excuse it anymore, since debit cards are now so widely available.

I don't keep money sitting in my checking account that isn't intended to be spent. If I have even $1000 to invest/save, that's what I do with it. No interest bearing checking account is going to pay you what you can get on a CD or some other form of (safe, as in insured, non-money losing) investment. I pay no checking fees whatsoever. Nothing per check, no minimum balance, no deposit/withdrawal fees. I have NEVER paid a checking fee, ever, in my entire life. Most of the interest bearing accounts come packed with fees, though.

There are many reasons to separate your savings from your checking/money-to-be-spent account, not the least of which is avoiding the temptation to spend it because its there. It makes budgeting easier, and watching the balance in a savings account grow is a great psychological boost, and is just plain encouraging. Simplify your life. Keep savings in a savings account or CDs, and keep only the money you have earmarked for spending in your FREE checking account.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 04, 2001.

1. LIVE BELOW YOUR MEANS.

2. Establish a savings account (for negative contingencies and for positive dreams.)

3. Plan financially for the long haul.

4. Keep track of every penny (for a while at least,) just to find out where the leaks in your purse are, so you can deal wisely with them.

5. Live a life of thanksgiving for what you have. It will cure the desease of wanting more than you need.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

There is one big reason why most landlords won't do leases, and that is because they cannot collect full damages (i.e. the complete amount of rent for the remainder of the lease period) if the renter breaks the lease for any reason. On the other hand, if the landlord breaks the lease, he is usually held fully accountable for the entire amount. That is a double standard.

Another reason for no leases is for the reasons Sojourner described--someone wants to sell, or move a family member in, and there is more flexibility for that sort of thing in the month-to-month agreement. When I was looking to buy my first home, one place I looked at had renters in it who actually told me they hoped it didn't sell (because they'd have to move), and so they were less than interested in cleaning it up for walk-throughs. Obviously not all tenants are like that, but it can happen.

As a landlord if the tenant leaves you have to try to rerent the property, and depending on the area the most you will collect in court is maybe the rerenting expenses (advertising), and perhaps one or two months of lost rent at the old rate (you have to try to mitigate the damages). And this after the landlord has often negotiated a lower rent with the tenant in the first place because he/she was led into thinking it was a long-term rental (steady, predictable income). So, unless you are in an area which requires you to offer long- term leases (some rent-control areas do), it is almost never in the landlord's interest to do so. A standard month-to-month agreement is better. If the laws were changed to allow collection of full damages with some reasonable exceptions (like the 'military clause" that people often talk about but is not actually an enforceable clause--most landlords usually would honor change-of-station orders without penalty anyway because of patriotism--also good business) you would probably see more leases.

I have never seen freebies unless the rental market is soft. Never. A tight market (one percent or less vacancy) doesn't have to cater to anyone and won't.

If you don't have rent control, you don't need a reason on either side to leave -30 days proper notice is all. Someone on either side might feel better giving some kind of reason (even a false one), but they don't have to. That is the big reason to own instead of rent--it is your property and you can stay or go as you please.

Credit cards make their primary money off merchant fees, the late fees and interest are gravy. As to whether you carry a balance or not, I guess it depends on how you were raised--we were always raised that it was a 20-day bill (30 in the old days), period and that was that. Any money magazine or site will have lists of cards/ banks that are best for people who pay on time (some banks' business model is to actually cater to those who pay on time), OR those who carry balances. Since I do pay every month, interest rates don't interest me, I am more concerned with rebates, how they respond to questions, chargebacks-- general level of customer service. Used properly, credit cards aren't bad.

While it is possible to get lenders (car and house, usually) that will charge prepayment fees, that is usually the exception, not the rule. Just watch what you're signing. As far as getting loans from out-of- state banks--it is like any other banking situation, no account of some sort with them, no loan. But many mortgages these days are with banks you have no other relationship with, especially when they get sold, or if you used a mortgage broker in the first place, so go figure. It is my understanding that bare land has always been more difficult to get a loan on anyway, local bank or not.

I was not referring to debit cards themselves having fees (like all credit cards used to charge annual fees) but to the 25-or 50 cent transaction charges that some businesses pass on to the consumer. Those may be going away, but I still see them from time to time.

Greenthumbelina, what are houses/condos going for in your area or another area should you wish to move? Many people are surprised to find that they can buy a house somewhere for what they are paying in rent. Look into foreclosure sales and HUD repos--since your husband is in construction he would be able to tell right away what needs to be fixed, and has the connections and perhaps access to cheaper materials to do so. I looked at more than a few repos when trying to buy that first home, and one, a newer house, had a big hole in the floor--it got there I don't know. A little much for me at the time, but definitely not beyond your husband's skill sets--you're very lucky to have him! Rental properties would be a lot cheaper for you to own, because you could do your own work and not have to contract out so much of it.

If you live in or near a college town, as your children move out, you can rent the bedrooms if you wish to students. A good book on the subject of shared housing (out of print unfortunately but you may be able to get it through your library or at a used bookstore) is Living With Tenants: How to Happily Share Your House With Renters for Profit and Security by Doreen Bierbrier. Your oldest might be interested in buying a house and renting out the other bedrooms (make sure you have 2 or more bathrooms) to help or even make her payment for her.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 04, 2001.

GT, no one has EVER, EVER, EVER charged me a fee for using a Visa or Mastercard style debit card. They have no way of knowing it isn't a regular Visa or Mastercard.

ATM cards, on the other hand, do sometimes get hit with such fees.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), September 05, 2001.

Just saving is pointless (literally). People can't get enthused about something that's pointless, and you need to get your husband's co- operation to do anything significant.

I'd strongly recommend adopting the long-term strategy of owning your own home. As others have said, retirement (or unemployment) is pretty grim without it. With it, retirement can be quite OK. Just mention to your husband that you've been thinking it would be a good idea to own your own home, and that you're going to look into what it would take. Let the kids know as well. Don't push too hard: this is one aim that will nearly sell itself.

Then actually find out what it would take. You shouldn't go for a mansion - just something minimal that will just satisfy your needs - don't forget the kids will be moving out fairly soon. You don't need more than you've got, and you could probably get by with a little less. Find out how much you can borrow, based on the income and income pattern you both have. Find out how much a minimal residence will cost. The difference will determine how much you need to save as a deposit - add all legal and transfer fees, an allowance for moving costs, and a safety margin (say $1,000 or whatever you feel can cover emergencies). It may be worth thinking about purchasing land and building on it too: if you have land, then one of those times when your husband has nothing on his books he may be able to start building your home himself.

You should be conservative here. Don't get the best you can afford: start looking at the least you can use. The aim is to pay off something quickly, rather than to support a finance company in luxury for 25 or 30 years. Choose a finance package that won't penalise early repayment and that charges interest on a reducing basis on the current balance, then overpay as much and as often as possible. Both this and the low purchase price will mean that most of the money you're paying is coming off the principle rather than paying interest. People have ended up owning their house outright in three years on this basis; and five or seven years is quite feasible.

Saving is good, and you'll need to budget to do it; but you can't do anthing until everyone is emotionally committed to the cause you're saving for.

In the meantime, while saving for that deposit, GET OUT OF DEBT. Look on it as a training exercise for paying off your home. If you have credit card debt, pour every spare penny into that; while using the cards as little as possible. In that case, it may even be worth considering getting another low-limit card to use for current purchases, to get the use of the 20-day or whatever interest-free period. If you add to an existing card carry-over balance, you'll be charged interest on it from the date of purchase. Providing that spending on the credit cards is under control, it may even be worth putting your savings into them - you can always re-draw the money if an emergency arises.

Look into what it would take to pay out the motor vehicle finance early. If there are penalties, find out how you can minimise them. Then GET OUT OF DEBT. Once you're not paying interest, savings can accumulate rapidly. Adopt some method that makes sure you can't be tempted into spending the savings though. This appears to be where you need to work: at the moment your family is spending what it's got - you may need to ruthlessly throw anything more than what you'll need into Certificates of Deposit immediately you get it.

Aim to never get into debt for anything except property ever again. You can get credit cards linked to your bank account, but keep the account in credit. You can also get mortgage-offset accounts, where your pay reduces the effective balance of your mortgage the moment it enters your account. Also, before assuming that debit cards are a better option than credit cards, check terms and conditions. They may be, but for a while here fraud on your debit card exposed you to the loss of everything in your account, maybe even up to your overdraft limit as well, while on credit cards your liability is limited.

Once you own your own home, you can turn around and upgrade, or buy properties to rent, or save to replace motor vehicles, or indulge yourself with the money you were previously putting into home repayments any way you like. Whatever you wish: the big aim is accomplished (and likely some useful habits established).

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), September 05, 2001.

Since your husband is in construction, perhaps a fixer-upper? An old saying is to buy the worst house in a good neighborhood and upgrade.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

This site has articles about the good and bad of debit cards:

http://www.bankrate.com/dls/news/special/20010907a.asp?prodtype=cc

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), September 07, 2001.

The best reason to own your home/farm? Because it appreciates for YOU, not the landlord! We bought a 84,000 104 acre farm in need of some work in 1994, financed for 15 years, will be paid off in 10 because we pay 100 extra principal every month. On todays real estate market it is worth at least 225,000, and we live in the boonies, definitely not a hot market area!!!

Why make money FOR the landlord, make it for yourself and YOUR retirement. There is no better investment than a below market priced farm and land, paid off as quickly as possible. It's worth has nowhere to go but UP !!!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), September 08, 2001.