I actually made it through a couple of the TK threads without falling asleep. I must be hyper or something.

If I understood your request, Mssr. TK, you were asking for links to stuff that calmly and rationally explained why Y2K wouldn't be a Bad Thing. Latimer's link was good; Doc's links were good. During the Y2K debate, many people also linked to my Web site, where I did most of my "talking."

Your response, if I understood it, was something to the effect of, "that's IT?!?"

Now: I *groaned* in the title because I'm actually tired of this subject; I'll make a point that segues into my continuing Ace #1 research into cults, weirdos, wackos, militia groups, Illuminati and NWO conspiracists, etc., etc.

Here's the important part. I shall even slip into CPR mode and scream this one, it's so important:

The amount of material
doesn't matter.
The quality of the material
is what matters.

In plain ingles, if I produce a single link, or single research paper, or single argument that effectively addresses the root error of the million-zillion-skazillion other pages/arguments/links out there saying that the sky is falling (or whatever), I've done my job.

I'm not being egotistical when I say this: my argument was pretty much formed before 1999. I *knew* that Y2K wouldn't be TEOLAWKI because I identified, and then addressed, some of the ludicrous premises behind Y2K Doom (the biggest, once again, is that computers are simply not capable of causing the level of destruction imagined by the "sky is falling" gang).

So, I stated my argument. From time to time, I'd polish and add clarification of a few things (including the much-linked-to "Embeddeds" And The IT Mindset"), but basically, from April on, I was having fun as much as anything else. :)

See? So it is with the NWO/Illuminati/Tax Protest/[insert mental gnarlation of choice here] arguments; it doesn't matter that there are two zillion pages advancing these theories. It doesn't matter that two zillions books have been written, twenty zillion emails produced and two hundred zillion dollars spent, on these hypotheses.

All I have to do is identify the fundamental flaw in them, find one page (or WRITE one page) that explains said flaw, and that's that.

If people choose to listen to the static and noise on the Web instead of the brief glimpses of sanity, well ... there's really nothing that we can do about it.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Answers

And the single most important page to neutralize the 6,000 pages of Gary North and Y2k was at the top of the Yahoo Search engine results that linked to a one page "analysis". Anyone who did not understand the intent of the page and the information needed a reading skill boost. Few bothered to click further on the site to a forum attached. There was little need for it.

The page was from a college student no one including myself knew or even bothered to ask his credentials after reading the page. It was so obvious because the writer had totally nailed North for what he was and what he was doing.

Too bad it has been removed because "Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot" (GNBFI aka: Biffy) belongs in the history books as a "pivotal turning point" in counteracting all the propaganda of the Doom Squads. The associated forum was the first place where techs could post and sneer at the absurd theories of the "Domino Effect, chain reaction, linear thinking postulates" of the y2k zombies. It also laid the ground work for other de-bunking sites.

Still it was the front page URL which was all the necessary ammunition anyone needed to send to those who wanted to know if "Gary North is correct" and was used that way for over 18 months prior to the Rollover.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Great Post Stefano!

and a little link to a neat new search engine.

"#3 Y2k Debunked - Archived web board from a small group of people who called Y2k right. Maybe TK can learn how they knew Y2k was an overblown disgrace from a visit to these pages.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Yeah, right, thanks Doc. Your link explains it all quite concisely...

Search results for: y2k

Categories (1-5 of 8)

1 Computers/Consultants/Y2K (23) 2 Computers/Software/Year 2000/Products/Vendor Y2K Statements (1) 3 Computers/Software/Year 2000/Y2K Humor (24) 4 Computers/Software/Year 2000/Y2K Testing Tools (11) 5 Kids and Teens/People and Society/Holidays and Celebrations/New Year/Y2K (3)

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Search Indiainfoline Y2K Compliance Solutions for the Y2K Bug Y2k Debunked Latest Press Release for Y2K by Asiadragons.com Welcome to The Lighter Side of Y2K LockOn Y2K Correspondent Embry-Riddle: Y2K Project Page Y2K Problems and Solutions Globetechnology.com: The Y2K Bug Y2K Compliance Search Engine Year 2000 Free Test Software & Y2K Compliant test for

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1 Indiainfoline Y2K Compliance - Presents guide on Y2K with the basics of the problem along with the scope and implications of Y2K bug. http://www.indiainfoline.com/cyva/y2kg/cont.html Computers/Software/Year 2000 (10)

2 Solutions for the Y2K Bug - Y2K guide the complete business and PC owners' guide to Y2K compliance. http://www.pcc2000.com/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Articles (15)

3 Y2k Debunked - Archived web board from a small group of people who called Y2k right. Maybe you can learn how they knew Y2k was an overblown disgrace from a visit to these pages. http://stand77.com/wwwboard/board.html Computers/Software/Year 2000/Articles (15)

4 2000TOOLS Group Inc. Y2K Software & Hardware Solutions - Y2K test & fix products to find and correct year 2000 problems with PC inventory, BIOS and RTC, data, and source code. They offer free y2k evaulation software on most of their products. http://www.2000tools.com/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Products (14)

5 Latest Press Release for Y2K by Asiadragons.com - Latest press release on Y2K problem,Y2K news and other information. http://news.asiadragons.com/tech/y2k/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Articles (15)

6 Welcome to The Lighter Side of Y2K - Collection of weekly comics for the Y2K. http://www.thelightersideofy2k.com/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Y2K Humor (24)

7 CBC News - Indepth: Y2K - Analysis of the Y2K problem from a Canadian perspective. http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/y2k/ News/By Subject/Information Technology/Computers/Y2K News (17)

8 LockOn Y2K Correspondent - Just enough Y2K Links to keep up with the local water-cooler expert. http://www.lockon.com/correspondents/y2k/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Y2K Humor (24)

9 Y2K Countdown - Countdown to the year 2000. Articles on Y2K problems and solutions. http://www.touratlanta.com/2000/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Articles (15)

10 The New York Times: The Y2K Problem - Collection of current headlines, plus links to archives and Federal Y2K information resources. http://www10.nytimes.com/library/tech/reference/millennium- index.html News/By Subject/Information Technology/Computers/Y2K News (17)

11 Embry-Riddle: Y2K Project Page - This is the home page for the Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University Year 2000 Project. All relevant Y2K information can be found here on via the embedded links. http://www.db.erau.edu/campus/administrative/departments/diglib/y2kmai n.htm Computers/Software/Year 2000/Information (20)

12 City of Albuquerque Y2K Projects - Y2K community information. http://www.cabq.gov/y2k/index.html Regional/North America/United States/New Mexico/Localities/A/Albuquerque/Government (1)

13 Y2K Problems and Solutions - While no major problems arose, Web developers have noticed that there have been some Y2K-related problems with certain scripts. This page will point you to articles and resources that will help you recover from more than a Y2K hangover. http://wdvl.com/Internet/Y2K/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Patches (6)

14 Globetechnology.com: The Y2K Bug - Features articles and a forum on the Y2K bug. http://www.globetechnology.com/summary/Y2K.html Computers/Software/Year 2000/Articles (15)

15 CPSR Y2K Working Group - The CPSR Y2K Working Group website is filled with up-to-date information on the Year 2000 Problem. Contingency planning & individual preparedness guidelines. http://www.cpsr.org/program/y2k/ Computers/Organizations/Working Groups (1)

16 Asiaco Tech News: Y2K - Links to Y2K news headlines. http://news.asiaco.com/tech/y2k/ News/By Subject/Information Technology/Computers/Y2K News (17)

17 Y2K Compliance Search Engine - The world's largest search engine for Y2K compliance contact information, serving as a categorized, one- stop vendor listing until and beyond the Year 2000. http://www.willitwork.com/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Equipment (2)

18 Y2k Services - Year 2000 products and Y2k services offer Y2K solutions that promise and guarantee to fix your Y2K problem. http://www.y2kcompany.com/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Products (14)

19 Year 2000 Free Test Software & Y2K Compliant test - Offers free software to test for year 2000 compliancy for Windows and Dos. http://www.gate.net/~hughesl/freey2k/ Computers/Software/Year 2000/Y2K Testing Tools (11)

20 Massachusetts Y2K Home Page - Includes preparedness resources and a toll-free information hotline. http://www.state.ma.us/y2k/ Computers/Software/Year 2000 (10)

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-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

3 Y2k Debunked - Archived web board from a small group of people who called Y2k right. Maybe you can learn how they knew Y2k was an overblown disgrace from a visit to these pages. http://stand77.com/wwwboard/board.html Computers/Software/Year 2000/Articles (15)


Personally, I think it should read:

3 Y2k Debunked - Archived web board from a small group of people who, with no real technical understanding nor appreciation that there was a reasonable margin for prediction error, effectively placed a bar bet and called Y2k right. Maybe you can learn how they knew Y2k was an overblown disgrace, based on nutball "thought contagionation" dogma, from a visit to these pages....

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

with no real technical understanding nor appreciation that there was a reasonable margin for prediction error, effectively placed a bar bet

Worng. Dead wrong. There was plenty of technical understanding on our part. That is the whole point. And you are making this statement without even following the link apparently.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Yes, Buddy, such as being able to understand an advanced programming construct such as the "writeln loop". Expressed, of course, in pseudo-code. Give me a break.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

I agree with Buddy, there was plenty of technical understanding present. Again, using the doom-o-meter of 1 thru 10 as to Y2k impact, the few at the less than .25 called the deal correctly. The other 98% were dead wrong. Does this indicate a mere dualistic bet was made?? a bar bet? This was not if the Raiders would beat the Broncos. This was, will the Raiders beat the entire league combined.

I think the interesting feature of the page at incywincy is this, the complete absence of the MEME. Back "in the days", the first 100 or so links on any search engine linked to the Meme(many still do), the same-old burnt-out scenarios from the usual suspects, North, Yourdon, the Senate Report, De Jager etc(i.e the Y2kMeme). Those be the pages which took the technical scenarios present in the current pages at incy, and extrapolated them to mean a societal calmity was fast approaching when in fact SOME with certain computing systems faced a broad spectrum of issues of which one was the 1999 to 2000 overflow.

The Incy pages shows what Y2k was(the most overblown pile of BS of the last century)and is(a boring technical issue for some IT folks).

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

such as being able to understand an advanced programming construct such as the "writeln loop".

You are either an idiot or a nitpicker. If one writes a loop to perform a count, one often refers to it as a counting loop. If I write a loop to print "TK is a nitpicker" 50 times, I might call it a "TK is a nitpicker" loop. Give us a break.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

I see computer concepts are too advanced for TK. TRY THIS MORON. Buy a box of chalk and a small black board at the Office Max or Staples. Now begin to write from the upper Left Hand corner,,,,neatly......"T.K. is a BS Artist, fence sitting observer of anthills".

Love it. Joker TK extends the charge made against me in early 2000 that I was "lucky" because I was 'guessing'. BULL SHIT.....and I can document that even for his limp brain.

IDIOT PROBABLY DOESN"T EVEN KNOW WHAT "PSUEDO-CODE" is OR.....WHAT IT IS USED FOR. HE NEEDS A BRAND SPANKING NEW "TOP DOWN DESIGN". RING A BELL YOU *****WEIRDO***???

I isolated "Yourdon's Central Fallacy" to the point where Taos-Toasty wrote in his sneering way, "I don't expect a real estate broker in Dallas to understand....". AND the point was IF CPR could understand and detail Yourdon's Central Fallacy, why could not HE, the world "expert" Taos-Yore-Toast-EDDY?

This clown is trying to pull everyone's chain to KICK ANTHILLS while all the time he avoids answering direct questions. TYPICAL. Now we have loops writeln as a "advanced programming concepts"???

Mumbling about writeln but NOT A WORD ABOUT XMLS or the more advanced things.
TK the BULL SHIT ARTIST.

Now we are treated to loops as an "advanced programming concept"?? Writeln or Write is from CHAP. 1 and "Hello World" in all the books, web tutorials, text books and CD CBT courses. LOOPS? Anywhere from 5- 10th "concept" introduced. Somewhere around Ch. 7-9 in a 25 chapter Intro book.

All of them copy the STANDARD Course plan that was used for PASCAL. And PASCAL was built by Dr. Wirth as a teaching tool to drill in "programming concepts".

MAYBE "TK" doesn't remember that.

Writeln /write/ print/etc: FIRST CHAPTER ANY INTRO TO ANY Language or even in "Intro to programming" course. LOOP ?? Usually introduced after some "types", conditionals whatever as "decision making processing command".

NEXT COMES, pointers(except in VB and languages that don't use them), then lists...then "linked lists" then ARRAYS (usual problem is print out these two or 3 lists in the following order)...

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

BTW........Idiot TK. Inheritance is coming to VB.net. I sincerely hope NOBODY extends your class though a change of properties is clearly in order.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

You are blowing smoke, cpr, and you know it. In this thread:

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=0066EH

I called your bluff regarding your supposed experience with Fortran and DO-loops -- Comp Sci 101 stuff, and outdated at that. You flunked royally. "Writeln" indeed.

Spouting off even more buzzwords won't alter the fact that, when actually pressed on specific details, you just respond with more and loftier buzzwords.

Actually, I believe that it was Hitler who was given "official" credit for this technique: If caught in a lie, tell an even bigger like. Or, as Joe McCarthy used to do it, if you can't come up with the names of 10 alleged commies when pressed, claim that there are one-hundred of them, and get the mob really stirred up for a good lynching -- all the while letting them forget that he couldn't actually cough up the names of 10.

(Buddy, I am sorry to have to subject your hero to this. But, alas, it is the truth.)

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Stephen: I agree with your GROAN. I even agree with your last sentence. In fact, I PARTICULARLY agree with your last sentence. Unlike Buddy, I don't see TK? [damn...I can't even remember the guy's handle] concentrating on Debunkers. He's basically saying that BOTH sides were wasting their time and OVER-ZEALOUS in their evangelism. I agree with that.

IMO, there was absolutely no need to bring the Y2k wars down to a level that went beyond correcting misinformation. Correcting misinformation is something we ALL do when we engage in debates. YOU did it, Jonathan did it, and even *I* did it. Many others did it, as well. SOME doomers got into the over-zealous mode. SOME debunkers did as well. They chose to attack people rather than dispute misinformation. The INFORMATION was lost in the heat.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

HE NEEDS A BRAND SPANKING NEW "TOP DOWN DESIGN". RING A BELL YOU *****WEIRDO***???

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

HEY, TK, (Lennie) tell us about the rabbit known as XSLT and how to build tables with it. You should be able to whip out something newer than Freshman Fortran from the 1970s.

OR CAN YOU?

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Buddy, remember when the Doom Zombies were telling everyone how D.C. would not have water or power? How the City was planning "warming stations" for the people in case the situation got really bad?

Report was in Washington Post on a Sunday and Monday complete with the Mayor's Plea for "emergency funding" because of how far behind they were?

BUT, what a joyful 2 days they had on TB. Then came the Tuesday report that Congress had passed the funding without a NO in 2 days. A month later the City was "making progress". IBM was owed many millions and no sooner were they paid than somehow the "dire emergency of D.C." SOMEHOW went away.
But the JERKS like PeeBrainCorEEEE kept it up.

Later, during the Rollover, Sam Donaldson sat in the "Federal Y2k Center" chanting "PETER (Jennings) we are dying here. There is nothing going on anywhere related to the Computer Problem.". His Doomzie Coach who was paid many dollars to prep Donaldson for the show left early to go and see the show on the Mall.

Same Doomzie had predicted a in a "white paper", (a chemical explosion caused by defective "chips") on Manhattan would end up killing 65,000 people. And he was the same Jerk Off who spread the story that there was only one manufacturer in the world for Insulin and if anything happened to that supply chain, many would die.

The Insulin Report went unchallanged for almost a year until Doc Don Taylor got about the insulin supply situation. The report on the Doomer's site (and others) was NEVER pulled down until the whole site vanished.

That was the IRRESPONSIBILITY OF THE FRINGERS THAT SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

EXAMPLE

http://204.202.137.113/sections/tech/DailyNews/chat_990212yourdon.html

Ed Yourdon

— What will happen on Jan. 1, 2000?

Moderator at 1:01pm ET Ed Yourdon now joins us. Welcome. Sterling Hill from dialup.mindspring.com at 1:04pm ET Please explain the difference between Y2K ready and Y2K Compliant. Ed Yourdon at 1:04pm ET Everyone is inventing their own definitions for Y2K ready and Y2K compliant. It's important to ask the companies what they mean by these terms since there is no universally accepted definition. Brent Larson from mnext.umn.edu at 1:05pm ET With all the computer technology available, why can't these situations be simulated in the critical environments we hear so much about so we know what is going to happen? Ed Yourdon at 1:06pm ET The difficulty with simulation is that there are so many interconnections between components of any system. So it's impossible, for example, to simulate the behavior of the entire international telecommunications system or the behavior of the entire national power grid. nglover from [38.29.63.42], at 1:07pm ET Don't you think the Y2K problem is really overblown and meant to be a money pit for ignorant people who just don't understand the problem completely? Ed Yourdon at 1:07pm ET No, I don't think it's overblown. There are some areas that have been exaggerated but, in general, it's a potentially very serious problem that has been underappreciated by most people. Al Conger from [206.242.150.66], at 1:08pm ET Does the average person need to make special preparations for Y2K? If so, what? Ed Yourdon at 1:10pm ET The average person needs to assess where he might be vulnerable to Y2K problems and then needs to decide whether to prepare for a disruption of a few days, a few weeks, or a few months. For most people, this would usually involve a modest amount of stockpiling for basic supplies. For example, the Red Cross recommends stockpiling a weeks' worth of food. Shedel from [207.4.188.144], at 1:11pm ET Mr. Yourdon, My big question is this: What do you really think the odds are that the power grid could go down for a significant period of time? In my opinion, this is the one big factor that could lead to a doomsday scenario. Everything else, we'll recover from... eventually. Ed Yourdon at 1:11pm ET Most experts now believe that we will not suffer a nationwide power failure. But we may experience localized power disruptions in various cities, perhaps lasting as long as a few days or a week. Dan Campanelli (dkc114@technol from [131.220.59.85], at 1:12pm ET Mr. Yourdon, Do you believe the fallout from the Y2K situation will be seen before Jan. 1. 2000? I have heard that the markets will take a tumble in the last half of the Year. Ed Yourdon at 1:14pm ET The Wall Street reaction to Y2K will probably depend upon the outcome of certain Y2K "Trigger Dates." These include April 1st (beginning of 1999-2000 fiscal year for New York State and Canada), and July 1st (beginning of 1999-2000 fiscal year for 46 additional states). Brett Dalrymple from sugar-land.omnes.net at 1:14pm ET How have your views on the Y2K problem changed since your book on the subject was published? Ed Yourdon at 1:15pm ET My opinion about Y2K has become more pessimistic since the original publication of my book. The reason is that we have more evidence now that small companies are not preparing for Y2K. Similarly, there is more evidence now that small towns and small countries are not preparing for Y2K. Mike McKulka from [144.170.168.203], at 1:16pm ET After reading the world bank report about non-industrialized nations, and realizing that 3/4 of them will never come close to being Y2K compliant, what are your thoughts on how this will affect the rest of the world and the global economy. How can we support contingency planning for these masses of humanity? Ed Yourdon at 1:17pm ET Most recent studies agree that developing nations are far behind schedule with Y2K. This will almost certainly cause a massive disruption in the global economy. The United Nations discussed this problem in a Y2K Summit Conference on Dec. 11, 1998, but there is no obvious solution to the problem. Timothy G. from [146.132.234.8], at 1:18pm ET Mr. Yourdon, With the number of embedded chips in computer systems estimated as high as 70 billion, only a small percentage of some reportedly will be affected by the millennium bug. But this small percentage is still a very big number. How will these rotten eggs spoil the meal? Ed Yourdon at 1: ET The concern about embedded systems is that they are used to control critical manufacturing processes. It's often difficult to locate and identify the non-compliant embedded systems, and there is often significant delay in obtaining a compliant replacement. Thus, if a problem does occur, it may not be possible to fix it quickly. Ray from [198.85.45.138], at 1:20pm ET Can we take some "comfort" in the fact that the Gartner Group has stated that only 8% of Y2K related problems will occur at the "witching" hour? The rest of the problems are already starting to happen now and will continue to happen well past the year 2000. Ed Yourdon at 1:22pm ET There is some comfort from the statement, because we may have an early warning of Y2K problems that would otherwise have been ignored. And it may give us more time to fix the problems rather than being confronted with a need to fix all the problems at one instant in time. Kelly Moore from [209.75.154.110], at 1:22pm ET What are you planning to do to prepare for Y2K, and what do you suggest families on a strict budget do to prepare? Ed Yourdon at 1:24pm ET I have moved to New Mexico and have installed a solar panel on my roof to generate electricity as well as making many other plans. For families on a tight budget, you need to begin making modest preparations as soon as possible, a little at a time. Buy a little bit of extra food each week and set aside a little bit of extra cash each week. Emily Turrettini from zurich.ch.pub-ip.eu.psi.net at 1:26pm ET Dear Mr. Yourden: I Follow Y2K news daily and I have never come across an article with regard to the automobile industry. I know cars have many embedded chips but not if they have dates in them. Will we be able to open our car doors, use our breaks? Ed Yourdon at 1:26pm ET The vast majority of consumer automobiles should be safe. A few models of high-end sophisticated automobiles may have problems with GPS Navigation Systems and other embedded chips. But most of the problems will occur in industrial vehicles such as buses, fire engines, and heavy duty trucks. Amy from atlanta-05-10rs.ga.dial-access.att.net at 1:27pm ET How likely are we to experience a disruption in the supply of food and gasoline, and to what extent? Ed Yourdon at 1:29pm ET Food disruptions could occur in many different areas. For example, most grocery stores are re-stocked every 72 hours. So if there is a disruption in transportation, that could cause a disruption in availability of groceries. And if there is a disruption in shipping, it could cause a disruption in imported foods. For example, 60% of the fish consumed in this country is imported. Regarding gasoline, there may be disruptions in oil wells, the oil tankers, refineries, and the distribution of refined gasoline to the gasoline stations. Inman (thinman@digisys.net) from [205.138.110.159], at 1:30pm ET Mr. Yourdon: Are the large cities more vulnerable to extended power and other utility problems than the rural areas? If so, how are the police and other agencies gearing up ahead of time to prevent widespread looting? In my opinion, this will be catalyst for the breakdown of society. Ed Yourdon at 1:34pm ET Large cities and rural communities are both vulnerable to power disruptions. However, residents of the suburban or the rural community usually have the option of buying their own generator or providing some form of alternative energy (such as solar panels). Residents of an urban city usually have no control over their basic utilities. A long term disruption in power or water or other basic utilities certainly could lead to civil unrest. There are rumors of plans being made by the National Guard and other government agencies to provide emergency services in the event of a Y2K breakdown, but none of this has been confirmed by government authorities. Gary Hansbrough from mix1.sacramento.cw.net at 1:34pm ET When I talk to computer industry insiders, most of them seem to think Y2K is mostly hype that a lot of people are promoting to make a buck off of. Honestly, how much are you profiting from it and why should I believe this doesn't skew your views on it? Ed Yourdon at 1:37pm ET I am a making no more of a profit for my Y2K activities than I was in the past with my other computer activities. Regarding the question of hype, you should ask why the IRS is spending $1 billion on Y2K repairs. Why is AT&T spending $500 million on Y2K and why is Citibank spending $650 million on Y2K repairs? If Y2K is so simple, why has the federal government budget for Y2K tripled within the past 18 months. Arnoldo Rodriguez from [160.94.112.88], at 1:37pm ET Who is responsible for the Y2K bug? Should we press for further action against them? Ed Yourdon at 1:40pm ET The best history of the Y2K bug was published in an article in the Jan. 1999 of Vanity Fair Magazine. Historically, almost every programmer created Y2K bugs deliberately in the 1960's because we had such limited computer memory available. So the question is not who created the problem, but why we did not start dealing with the problem sooner. The answer is that procrastination is a universal American habit. Leslie W. Elaine,AR from [150.208.115.118], at 1:41pm ET How and why do you think that there is going to be a global economic depression as a worst case scenario? Ed Yourdon at 1:43pm ET We are likely to see failures of some international banking systems. We are likely to see bankruptcies of industrial organizations around the world because of Y2K problems. And we are likely to see problems in air transportation and air shipping which will disrupt global trade. Melissa from [205.188.195.26], at 1:44pm ET Mr. Yourdon, Do you see any real possibility of threat to our national security as a result of Y2K on nuclear tracking devices? Ed Yourdon at 1:45pm ET There are potential threats caused by terrorists who might try to take advantage of Y2K disruptions. And the military has expressed concern about possible Y2K problems in early warning systems. But they express confidence that nuclear weapons themselves will remain safe. Karen from [209.240.197.33], at 1:46pm ET In your opinion what, if anything, should the government be doing differently in the way they are handlng the Y2K problem? Especially with regard to what they are telling the public? Ed Yourdon at 1:48pm ET I believe the government should be much more candid and forthright about potential Y2K problems. And I think the government should be publishing recommended Y2K contingency plans much like the Red Cross has done on their website. Unfortunately, government is likely to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Jason Brittain from [216.15.103.34], at 1:49pm ET Mr. Yourdon: I have read several news stories on the Net about the potential for Y2k nuclear disasters such as nuclear reactor meltdowns and Y2k-triggered nuclear missile launches from around the world. As a software engineer, I see this as a very real possibility, and I worry about it. What (if anything) have you heard about serious government effort to prevent these life-threatening Y2k problems? Ed Yourdon at 1:50pm ET As you might imagine, most of the information about nuclear weapons is highly classified. So we can only hope that military officials have had the common sense to carefully check potential Y2K problems in nuclear weapons. Prasad Ram from [4.11.247.69], at 1:51pm ET Would the Y2K bug affect Bio-electronics, like heart monitors and so on? If so, will the liability to correct fall on the manufacturer? Lastly, how will Y2K bug affect such equipment sold to third world countries? Thanks. Ed Yourdon at 1:53pm ET Most hospitals have discovered that they have hundreds of medical devices that contain embedded systems and each of these must be checked to see whether a Y2K problem might have life-threatening consequences. Pace makers for example, will not stop or explode if they have a Y2K problem, but they might record erroneous information about a patient's heart condition. This could lead to a faulty diagnosis on the part of the doctor. michael from [206.148.52.140], at 1:53pm ET It seems inevitable that some sectors will try to take advantage of a global crisis. Which businesses or people in power do you see benefiting the most in the Y2K fallout? Ed Yourdon at 1:55pm ET Some companies may achieve competitive advantage simply because they are Y2K compliant, while their competitors experience Y2K problems. On a global scale, the United States might gain an advantage because we have taken the Y2K problem more seriously than most other countries around the world. Brent Sundberg from kellogg.com at 1:56pm ET What risk do we have of losing money in the financial institutions at the turn of the century? Are there good alternative havens during that period? Ed Yourdon at 1:58pm ET Of all the industries working on Y2K, the banking and financial industry has the greatest sense of urgency and has made the most progress in achieving Y2K compliance. But there is no absolute guarantee that every bank will be safe, or that the American banking system will remain unaffected by Y2K problems that might occur in international banks. On the other hand, there may be a greater risk caused by panic and bank runs than the risk of actual Y2K problems. Dennis Chimelis from [208.225.13.10], at 1:59pm ET Aren't we creating a potentially dangerous atmosphere by overhyping the so- called Y2K bug? Making the public aware is one thing, causing the public to panic with a run at the bank in 12/99 is quite another. Ed Yourdon at 2:01pm ET There is a fine line between awarenes and panic, and the best way of preventing panic is to provide detailed credible information that can be verified by an independent third party. Unfortunately, none of the banks have provided a detailed description of the state of their Y2K compliance that has been subjected to a third party audit. They are simply asking us to trust their assurances of Y2K progress. Moderator at 2:07pm ET Any final thoughts, Ed? Ed Yourdon at 2:08pm ET I'd like to offer my best wishes for whatever Y2K plans you might be making. For more information, feel free to visit my website at www.yourdon.com. Moderator at 2:11pm ET Thanks for joining us everyone. Sorry we couldn't get to all of your questions ... we had nearly 500 in the queue!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=006C0i

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

HEY, TK, (Lennie) tell us about the rabbit known as XSLT and how to build tables with it. You should be able to whip out something newer than Freshman Fortran from the 1970s.

OR CAN YOU?

"The Big Lie" in action. CPR is trying to confuse folks by huffin and puffin. Smokey in heare....

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2001

No, TK, it's a valid question. You called CPR for using pseudocode (something that I do all the time when explaining programming concepts to others) and implied that he doesn't understand these concepts. I happen to know that he does.

(In fact, he knows MORE than I do about some of the latest widgets. I'm more of an embedded, hardware, assembler-and-C/C++ type of code hacker. If you need a VxD that'll let your hardware board talk to your program, or an embedded chip that'll control some sort of industrial process, I'm your man.)

When you call someone out like that, you are starting a Weenie-Wag contest by default.[g] Therefore, it's legitimate for Charlie to ask you to show how much YOU know, especially given that you insist on insisting that there were no real "experts" at Doc's or BIFFY.

Your comments here have been interesting, but taken as a whole, are more illuminating. You presented yourself initially as someone who'd never heard of the Great Y2K Debate until recently. And yet, as these threads have proceeded, you have let drop certain terms and have used peculiar wording unique to that debate -- as though you were, in fact, involved in it at the time.

Therefore, methinks that my original assessment, that you're a bored troll who's killing time (and not coincidentally getting a buzz off of provoking Charlie[g]), is probably near the mark.

Hey, absolutely nothing wrong with that; the Web is rife with it. Shoot, I myself have done it. But don't be surprised if I lump you with Netghost, DavePC and a few other names from the past over at Doc's Joint. :)

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2001

SMP, watch this thread "die" now. I think I will cut and paste a few of the posts and hassle the hassler with them.

-- Anonymous, August 26, 2001

No, TK, it's a valid question. You called CPR for using pseudocode (something that I do all the time when explaining programming concepts to others) and implied that he doesn't understand these concepts. I happen to know that he does.

No, not really, Stephen. I "called" cpr on being wrong, wrong, wrong about what he was portraying as a Fortran DO-loop. To all appearances, he confused it with Pascal; in fact, call it pseudo- Pascal if you like. Further, when his loyal subject, Buddy, called it a "writeln loop" (???-- Let's see now, when it comes to a loop, there is "do-while", "do-until", "for-next", etc., but that is truly a new one!), cpr did not correct him.

Does this absolutely prove that cpr doesn't understand the concept of a programming language or a programming concept? No, but it sure calls into question his claimed expertise. Generally, let's just say he probably has a better handle on it than most guys that sell houses for a living. But he is no expert (not that I am, either), and dealing which such complexities is best left to them. You know, like the Y2K bug for example....


(In fact, he knows MORE than I do about some of the latest widgets. I'm more of an embedded, hardware, assembler-and-C/C++ type of code hacker. If you need a VxD that'll let your hardware board talk to your program, or an embedded chip that'll control some sort of industrial process, I'm your man.)

Well, uhhh, OK. Maybe you guys ought to start a new company. Sort of a one-stop shop for hardware, low-level software, and buying/selling property.


When you call someone out like that, you are starting a Weenie-Wag contest by default.[g] Therefore, it's legitimate for Charlie to ask you to show how much YOU know, especially given that you insist on insisting that there were no real "experts" at Doc's or BIFFY.

No, I was not trying to claim that I was any kind of expert in computer science. I merely demonstrated that cpr is not.

I will be happy to answer cpr's questions about what I know about computer science, but only after he answers my request, which he continues to duck: Name all the handles that you post under here (e.g., "Sister Catherine"), and why you chose those handles. I'll bet that 40% of the goofy posts on this board come from cpr, under these weird handles.


Your comments here have been interesting, but taken as a whole, are more illuminating. You presented yourself initially as someone who'd never heard of the Great Y2K Debate until recently. And yet, as these threads have proceeded, you have let drop certain terms and have used peculiar wording unique to that debate -- as though you were, in fact, involved in it at the time.

And so it goes. One minute, I'm Ken Decker, then Ken Olsen, then Corriee(?), then Flint, then Lennie (cpr's latest fantasy), etc. What has happened over the last few weeks is that I have read through a lot of the very links that people have pointed me to, and so have indeed educated myself. For example, I only recently realized what Flint pointed out the other day: That you really can't simply say there were the "doomers" versus the "debunkers" -- there were in fact lots of shades in between. Many of whom simply took out some "Y2K insurance", then went on with their lives after nothing happened.

But, regardless, the reality is that I -- and most people that I know in real life -- just never took the Y2K bug all that seriously in the first place. We simply assumed that the computer experts -- people who generally make in their full time profession, not something they do between showing houses -- were taking care of it. Period.


Therefore, methinks that my original assessment, that you're a bored troll who's killing time (and not coincidentally getting a buzz off of provoking Charlie[g]), is probably near the mark.

I certainly have made no bones about the fact that I visit here on my lunch hours and slack time at work. So, in a sense, maybe you are right to some extent. But I do find the whole Y2K thing fascinating, trying to figure out why this issue apparently captivated some people. And why they listened to dubious Internet information sources like cpr, Doc Paulie, Gary North, Michael Hyatt, etc.


Hey, absolutely nothing wrong with that; the Web is rife with it. Shoot, I myself have done it. But don't be surprised if I lump you with Netghost, DavePC and a few other names from the past over at Doc's Joint. :)


Let me take a wild guess, here: These people also probably pointed out the resemblence between "Doc's Joint" and a cult? Am I close?

Well, Stephen, I'll make you this offer: Since this is your "Roost", if you want me to simply discontinue posting here, I will. But if not, then expect me to continually point out that your "emperors" like cpr are running around stark naked. And stark raving mad, to boot.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

I "called" cpr on being wrong, wrong, wrong about what he was portraying as a Fortran DO-loop. To all appearances, he confused it with Pascal; in fact, call it pseudo- Pascal if you like. Further, when his loyal subject, Buddy, called it a "writeln loop" (???-- Let's see now, when it comes to a loop, there is "do-while", "do-until", "for-next", etc., but that is truly a new one!), cpr did not correct him.

Once again, cpr did not say it was a FORTRAN loop. Once again, it is common to refer to loops with a name related to what the loop is looping for as opposed to the particular looping construct.

But, regardless, the reality is that I -- and most people that I know in real life -- just never took the Y2K bug all that seriously in the first place. We simply assumed that the computer experts -- people who generally make in their full time profession, not something they do between showing houses -- were taking care of it. Period.

Well, congratulations, you and most of the people you know in real life are just as clueless as we supposed. Do you do the same thing when you need an expert to fix your plumbing or remodel your house? Do you just assume it is being taken care of because an expert is on the job? Or do you monitor that expert to make sure he isn't ripping you off?

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Buddy: ALL debunkers didn't agree. Let's face that one, eh? ALL doomers didn't agree either. It bothers me when ONE person stands up to represent a group of people using WE. You just did it, and Charlie does it all the time. It reminds me of Dennis Olson defending his new TB2K from the folks at Unk's. "We don't like them, we don't need them, we don't WANT them"

Charlie doesn't like the people at Unk's and Dennis doesn't like the people at Unk's, but [much like this forum], I don't think ANYONE can suggest that there's a "WE" that agrees totally with the folks who use the word.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Point taken.

Substitute I for we where appropriate.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Once again, cpr did not say it was a FORTRAN loop.

No, but that was the only programming language that he mentioned up to that point, and "DO-loop" certainly suggests a Fortran connotation.


Once again, it is common to refer to loops with a name related to what the loop is looping for as opposed to the particular looping construct.

I could see referencing a particular set of high level language statements as a "routine", or "code", with the specifics being implied -- in this case, repetitively writing a line of text. But the discussion was specifically aimed at whether cpr knew how to express a Fortran DO-loop, which he apparently did not. So I'm not buying, Buddy, though it was a good attempted save on your part.


Well, congratulations, you and most of the people you know in real life are just as clueless as we supposed. Do you do the same thing when you need an expert to fix your plumbing or remodel your house? Do you just assume it is being taken care of because an expert is on the job? Or do you monitor that expert to make sure he isn't ripping you off?

You bet I take care to make sure that I am not being ripped off! And one of the absolute first things that I do is make sure that the person is qualified to do the job, and knows what the hell s/he is talking about.

If the "plumber" actually did something completely different during the week, doing plumbing jobs just as a side job, wouldn't your confidence be a little weak? If the "plumber" didn't know the difference between a pipe wrench and channel locks, wouldn't you be worried?

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

But the discussion was specifically aimed at whether cpr knew how to express a Fortran DO-loop, which he apparently did not.

I certainly don't recall the discussion being specifically about whether cpr know how to express a Fortran DO-loop. At this moment, I can't locate the thread where it occurred, but that is not my recollection. cpr has always made jokes expressed in pseudo-code, so at the time it didn't strike me as anything relevant--it was a joke.

BTW, I doubt there are many programmers around who can recall the specific syntax of Fortran anyway, since it is pretty much out of general use. As for pseudo-code, if you don't know what that is then we have nothing further to discuss regarding who does and does not know what they're talking about.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Ultimate guide book for Chain Pullers like TK, by Jean Stark

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

As for pseudo-code, if you don't know what that is then we have nothing further to discuss regarding who does and does not know what they're talking about.

Yes, Buddy, I know what pseudo-code is: a "high level" way to express programming statements without getting into the nitty-gritty details of languages, implementations, data formats, etc. For example, writeln would probably be considered too language/implementation specific for use as pseudo-code, though of course there is a lot of flexibility allowed, so let's make that a possible "maybe".

Now, regarding the "term" writeln loop: Yes, on this subject, we don't have much to talk about, since it is obvious that you (and cpr) don't know what you are talking about!

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Book Description

Since its publication in 1997, "Classical Chains" has become a classic in it's own right. Clear step-by-step instructions will lead you through a total of 38 chain styles, all derived from the elegant loop-in-loop process.

With 350 drawings and 45 photographs, this is clearly the definitive work on this topic. Ms. Stark brings years of teaching and experimentation to this popular book. In straightforward language she discusses not only the making of chains, but clasps and terminals too. The Brynmorgen edition includes two dozen additions to the original text by the author. This new deluxe edition features a lay- flat spiral binding and a hard covera practical binding for a book heralded widely as the ultimate guide to these versatile chains.

The author, Jean Reist Stark , E-mail: jarsink@aol.com , June 19, 1999


Thank you, Doc Paulie, for weighing in and showing just how much you know about the programming construct known as the loop.

Sadly, even cpr and Buddy have you beat, hands down, on this one. Better go back to peddling memes, my friend....

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Another joke missed by TurKey.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

BTW, TurKey, if you can't understand it when people use a short expression to explain a complex object succinctly, such as when I used the term "writeln loop," then I don't know how you communicate with anyone.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Hmmmmm...

I wonder why this guy calls his program a "message loop."

http://www.webreference.com/js/tips/991201.html

Maybe the the fruit loop expert TK can tell us.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Curiouser and curiouser...this dictionary refers to a loop as a "sequence of instructions that repeats" with for, do, while as only constructs which implement that definition.

http://www.nightflight.com/foldoc-bin/foldoc.cgi?query=loop&action=Sea rch

loop

A sequence of instructions that the processor repeats, either until some condition is met, or indefinitely.

In an structured language (e.g. C, Pascal, BASIC, or Fortran), a loop is usually achieved with for loop, while loop or repeat loop constructs.

In other languages these constructs may be synthesised with a jump (assembly language) or a GOTO (early Fortran or BASIC).

(1999-05-06)

Here is a basic loop for you, Mr. TK, and it uses none of your favorite loop constructs.

1. Lather 2. Rinse 3. Repeat

Now, are you going to call that a "repeat loop" or a "hair-washing loop."

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

And there is the Jeweler's Loop which is used for assorted purposes in evaluating things like watches and jewelry for VALUE. They could be used to carefully inspect the Cereal Fruit Loops as they are removed from the packaging but of little use in examining the sqwakings of TurKies.

Using such a device to evaluate TurKey is not necessary. To borrow from Math, we may say he is a set of invalid statements simply by inspection little proof required. His demand that I reveal assorted screen names before he discusses his background is more GNAT picking at anthill methods.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Keep looping ... uh, I mean looking... Buddy. And if you find a reference to writeln loop, be sure and let us know.


(When Buddy was a kid, I'll bet the other guys played the meanest tricks on him... Poor guy. No wonder that his self-esteem is so low that he only lives for cpr's praise and encouragement.)

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

Then there is the version that TK would be most familiar with the "Here We Go Loob di Loob" which he sings while skipping around the playground during Recess.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

cpr, do your depends need changing again?

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

TK, your definition of loop does not account for the infinite loop. And there seems to be one going on in your head right now that keeps you from comprehending what others are telling you.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001