A thread on CS got me to thinking about this.

On CS I related a story about how I ran outa fuel in my car, went to the gas station with my RED gas can and the attendent wouldn't let me fill the can up with diesel because it was the wrong color. Its the law she sez.

I've lived on the edge for most of my life. Not bragging or complaining, just the facts. Sometimes that seems to require one to break the law just to get by.

You know, piddly stuff like equiptment violations on the beaters I drive, registration violations when I'm driving one'a my trucks with another vehicles plates on it simply because I rarely use that specific vehicle on the road otherwise, smoke a little weed now and then, pull a neighbor outa the ditch near his home after he'd had a coupla too many etc. Now all this stuff is against the law, punishable by fines and/or jail time, but I haven't hurt anyone by doing these nefarious acts.

A while back there was a program on public radio. They were talking about the "war" on crime. Most of the callers were deploring the sad state of affairs with so many folks in prison, on supervision etc. yet justifying the get-tough-on-crime stance of the guvmnt. I called in and commented that a crime by definition is an act punishable by a fine or imprisonment and that could include ANYTHING the legislature decided was a crime. I suggested they limit the discussion to crimes where others were actually being hurt or harmed and not these bogus victimless "crimes". That didn't go over real well.

I guess its just the anarchist in me but I DO understand some of the sentiments of the "conservatives" when they're complaining about the government.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Answers

I'm not going to get into comparing 'degree' of law breaking, but we all do it, at some point. Jaywalking, maybe, if nothing else, or going a few miles over the speed limit. Using jaywalking as an example, if I do that after carefully checking both ways, with no one coming, what is the big deal? However, if I just step off the sidewalk into traffic, causing drivers to have to slam on the brakes, maybe causing an accident, then it IS a big deal.

The problem is always the folks who stand on the LETTER of the law, rather than the SPIRIT. And standing on the letter is sometimes a control freak issue, and sometimes it's about not being able to do much about law-breakers that are really causing a problem (could be personal frustration or could be pressure from higher ups).

So, what is it about pulling the tipsy neighbors out of the ditch that's illegal?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Yeah it is illegal as far as I know. You're sposed to call the cops and they'll call a wrecker afer they've "investigated".

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Why just today while pumping gas and filling my gas can in my pickup the lady attendant came running at me at breaknet speed yelling that it was the law I had to take the can out of the bed and set it on the ground to pump!!!

Well my backs out so I asked her if she would'nt mind settin it on the ground for me but she walked away. When I payed I begged her forgivness. I swore I would never ever ever ever ever let it happen again!!! The other people waiting in line were all cracking up....Kirk

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Well, I don't think that woman at the gas station was any too accomodating. It seems that 'service' is a rare commodity these days -- altho I'm betting she'd get in trouble with her employer for being off the register. I can certainly see the law covering putting the gas can on the ground -- I happened to see a truly horrific video one time (one of those reality Tv shows) of a man set on fire by the static electricity spark from filling the gas can in the bed of his truck with one of those plastic liners. The man survived it, but is horribly crippled and disfigured, has had years of physical therapy just to walk. I would hate to see that happen to anyone else.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Hey John, I have had the same thing your writing about on my mind the past couple of days. It started with a conversasion with my sister, she is a human resource manager for factory and she's had the responsibility of hiring 200 new people the past few months. We were chatting on the phone night before last and i ask her if she'd finished hiring, said she finished up by using temps and by the time they got them drug tested that she would have to hire some more, noisey me ask questions about their drug testing. Most of the people were positive for marijuana and I said sound like yal are problaby losing good employees because of the drug testing , well she started in on how marijuana is illigal and I said drug testing should be. Well we both seen a major difference in opionion so we changed the subject. She did say that a person could test positive from second hand smoke. if that is true how can they not hire someone because of test results? Just because something is against the law don't make it wrong. Sherr

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Smoking something at your farm or in your home, and like John said, not hurting anyone else, I think is the key there. Steve works heavy construction, and goes way up on scafolding to hang drywall, do ceilings, metal framing and all that. Every single day, one of the younger guys will come on over to help him stoned out of their mind. He tells them to pick their tools back up and go somewhere else, that he has a wife at home and responsiblities, and he dosen't need to end up hurt because they can't leave it at home. Guys are always comming in hung over, hardly doing their share. Many days he is completely worn out for having to do their part as well as his. These guys go out on 10:00 break and smoke till they can't see straight. Some of them even go home if no one has any.

If you are taking that big paycheck from the company you should be 100% there to earn it. I don't think it is fair at all for those guys to get stoned at work. Not fair to the others. IMO that is very rude to the company you are taking money from for a job you do. This is an excellent company to work for, excellent pay and nothing to complain about. That's why Steve drives all the way to Louisville to work for them.

One guy Steve was giving a ride even lit one up in the van on the way home, didn't even ask Steve, knew Steve didn't do that, and when Steve made him put it out, he was really rude to Steve. Now he wasn't very thankfull for his ride. He had lost his own licience years ago and he also lost his ride with Steve.

My son tells me stories about the factories in town. Most all on the lines are high. They spill acid, they double up on chemicals to take more break times, they get people hurt all the time. One night everyone on the line was coughing up blood. Someone was high and screwed up.

The guys we hired to bale our hay fields drank beer the whole time and you could tell they were feeling it. I was so nervous they would flip the tractor on the hills and then sue me and my insurance company. I never used them again and I won't.

If people do a little of this or a little of that, that's their business, and I don't think badly of them at all, but what they do should never spill over into other peoples lives.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

John, when you switch plates and use a good plate on a different vehicle that isn't registered, I'm going to guess that the car is uninsured. Sure, you don't drive it often, but when you do and then hit me, we ALL pay for that...through higher insurance due to uninsured folks. If your vehicle isn't safe on the ride ('piddly' equipment violations) that makes the road unsafe for others. I don't see that as a victimless crime. I pay my fees to register my vehicles, why do you get to be exempt? And unless you grow your own marijuana, you are supporting a deadly underground web of growers and dealers. Not entirely victimless either. (Ought to just make that legal so we can wipe out the profits for the middlemen.)

Kirk, I can't believe you would make light of a serious safety issue. After reading the explanation re: static electricity, do you get it now?? I guess there were others there at the station who could have gotten caught up in the fireball, they'd really be laughing at your little joke then, right?

I get so irritated when others take risks on my behalf.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

I think Cindy and Anne makes some very good points. The key to rules and laws for me is "how will it affect the safety of all??".

As a nursing supervisor I refused to work with impaired nurses. Show up for work impaired and you are out of here was my rule, and I stuck by it even when I ended up having to work twice as hard myself because I sent someone home.

I support the voucher system for education. If Joy had a daughter and wanted to teach her in a particular way it should be her choice not mine. I resent having to pay for an educational system that is slanted, stale and corrupt. Now if there was a group that wanted to educate their children to burn "witches" at the stake or sacrifice babies to satan, now that would be unsafe to others.

I am a real anarchist also john, I HATE unnecessary rules that have nothing at all to do with public safety and only contribute to lining someone elses pockets. Sure are a lot of them aren't there?

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Anne: First you assume too much. My insurance covers what I'm driving- --period. No risk to you.

Second---I agree, it should be legalized. That would take a big bite outa crime, but its not. And it still remains a victimless crime IMO, Yeah, when I buy it its from someone whe deals it illegally. Willing customer---willing seller---where's the victim? If you say the dealer is part of the underground economy, yup thats right, but the profits end up in the mainstream economy where the tax man gets his cut and the local merchant gets his cut. And we're not talking drug kingpin here. Just some small time only-to-buddies kinda sales guy.

Third---So theres a brake lite out or a head lite or maybe even a faulty exhaust system---big deal. No harm---no foul. You can argue your safety is endangered by my one headlite. I say only if I'm driving too fast and that would apply equally to two headlites. You drive accordingly. You may say you're endangered because the rear of the car isn't properly illuminated because of the tail lite or brake lite out. I'd have to ask how would seeing only one tail lite make any difference to you in the way you handled the faulty car in front of you.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Whoa.........Anne dear, little grouchy today are we? :) I reckon John can defend himself without my interference, but seems to be some conclusions about the safety and insurance coverage of his vehicles were jumped to here?

I agree with Anne about knowin where you get your weed from (more stupid laws); guess its just another case of being a conscious consumer, both pre and post purchase!

And Cindy, good grief,it sounds like y'all got lots of very unhappy citizens down there, but you aren't suggesting that the gubmint come to your hayfields and test your field hands are ya? And I guess my comment on the crap Steve has to go thru cuz of the losers he works with is why is this company considered so wonderful if they allow this stuff to go on? Why the blazes aren't they fired when they obviously are using recreational drugs while on duty? Is help so hard to find in Kentucky that they have to hire any putz who wanders in off the street? As for the factory where, once again in Kentucky it seems :), everyone is stoned..........I dont see where drug testing is necessary to get rid of people who are obviously using to the detriment of their job and factory safety. They screw up, they're outa here. (Unless its a gubmint job,of course, in which case you can't get rid of em even if they murder your Aunt Martha).

John, I know what you mean about agreeing with the 'conservatives' about government intervention in every aspect of our lives, making us stupider as a culture because people have come to rely on laws and gubmint to take care of poor stupid us. I think they should for the most part stay the heck out of our business.

About the 'static electricity' thing.......no, I don't understand it; I for one need a more detailed explanation of what this is about and why it wouldnt be almost as likely to happen just cuz the can was two feet lower on the ground? Help please.....There are endless scenarios that legislators can and do come up with in the catgory of 'what if' so they can make a new law. And an endless list of freak occurrences that silly lawmakers want to prevent from happening again, so they make a law. I'm sure their hearts are usually in the right place, but like the old saying goes about the road to hell........it too frequently winds up restricting freedom to live life as we as individuals see fit, and to exercise our brain cells adequately.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

It is hard to find good workers in KY. No one wants to work. It is a very large company, does mega buildings, and they do let alot of guys go. The only way they can find out allot of it is if someone lets them know, and yes, Steve does, if it affects his job that he is responsible for.

Steve has gotten several guys jobs starting out at 10 an hour for unskilled labor, and from there it goes up. They will ride for maybe a week and quit because "it's too hard." Soooooo many guys here in KY have no drivers liciences because they have lost them and can't get them back for years and years.

One guy close to us wanted a job, and a ride up to the job. Well, he got the job with Steve, and Steve went to pick him up the next morning (for the first time) and the guy was no where to be found. Steve was over an hour late getting to work. Turns out the guy had "partied" in celebration of his new job, drank 2 twelve packs, on a Wednesday nite, and got in a fight with his wife and ended up passing out in the shed out back. And the guy swore up and down he was trying to straighten up his life and just needed a little help. I even called him and asked if he wanted to go to work the next day (forgiveness) and he made up a bunch of crap about not having a babysitter.

Of course I don't expect anyone to come out here and test anyone. But it really seems folks these days have lost their manners. How they affect others. Like I said, I don't care if someone does drink, but to come to my farm for a job I am paying for drunk is bad manners.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Yeah, I was cranky this morning. I agree to disagree with you, John. Peace.

I don't think stupidity needs to be legislated, I think the accidents cull those folks from the herd (I'm smiling here...check out the Darwin Awards). I would prefer less laws not more.

Grounding a plastic container lessens the static electricity that can ignite the gas in the can and the hose and the tank. It can happen very quickly. Metal cans are different, but I haven't seen them for sale lately.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

I think metal gas cans are still available, but last time I looked they were at least 3-4 times more expensive than a plastic can. I'm hanging onto the metal one I got when there were no plastic cans!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Julie, Anne: Here in Calif we also have this other law that the gas stations must have those rubber gismos that cover the tank-pump connection. That is to stop the fumes from being released. I believe its the fumes that ignite, not the actual gas. No fumes no static explosions. To be honest I've never heard of a gas station exploding anywhere. UNTIL NOW! But I bet it wasn't in Calif.

One huge problem we have is we hire these guys we call LAW MAKERS and what do they do? They make as many laws as they can cause thats their job. If I was king I'd make it so every law thats inacted we would disolve 2 thats are useless!! Course I'm not king. I can't even pump the darn gas right!.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Well, the gas station didn't explode in that video, and yes, they explained that the static electricity generated by the the plastic stuff that lines the truck beds (or backs of cars) with the plastic of the can is the spark that hits the fumes. Of course, once the fumes ignite, it explodes the can, dousing the surroundings (people) in the gas, which then burns.

I always wondered what those annoying rubber flanges on the gas hoses were for. I thought it was to keep the fumes from spreading because inhaling it causes liver damage.

I sometimes feel (when I'm in a bad bad mood) that they should just go ahead and let people immolate themselves and thin the herd a bit, then I realize that everything is changing so fast that it's practically impossible to keep up with everything that has become hazardous. I don't know that I have a general stance on legistlation, because I can see the reasons for some and not for others. There was a thread on CS a while back about mandatory seat belt laws, and the gist that I got was that a whole lot of people thought that anyone else should butt out if they didn't want to wear their seat belts.

A friend of mine (Frank) would have been killed if he had been wearing his seat belt during an accident. He saw the light pole coming after they'd been hit by a drunk, and leapt onto his sister's lap as his side of the car was smashed clear over to her side. He suffered lacerations to his forehead (I picked glass out of his scalp for weeks afterward) and severe bruising, but survived.

Another friend was in a car accident where he was saved by his seat belt, while his friend alongside him was ejected through the windshield and killed.

Then there was the story about the man who belted his two sons in, and refused to wear one himself (his Rights I guess to be Macho). In that accident, he became a loose cannon ricocheting around the car and killed one of his kids crashing into him and crippled the other one.

It's not an easy call to make with situations like this.

There was also a thread where it eventually got around to asking who hadn't driven a little bit drunk, and would you REALLY want your immediate family to sit in the slammer for it? My answer is still yes, I'd want them to sit in the slammer rather than kill themselves, or kill someone else. Frank almost got killed by a drunk, a local family had the mother and one son killed by a drunk, a second son is brain damaged from that same accident, friends of mine were slammed into head on on a one-way street by a drunk (their car was totalled, the engine was flipped in the air and landed between them on the seat. Inches either way and I would have been burying one of my best friends).

Yet there are all kinds of people out there who have no problem with the idea of drinking and driving, who feel that as long as they haven't hit anyone yet, it's a victimless crime. I'm not really equating jaywalking, 'illegal' towing, and such, however, who makes the judgement as to how serious it is and when to protect someone else? I don't want any more of my friends killed by drunks, I don't want any of my friends immolated by exploding gas fumes either .

Somehow I always picture it as someone I don't know being killed, or burned alive, rather than thinking that it might be my 78 year old mother killed. Another artist that I correspond with on occasion has been spending the last four years trying to get justice against the two street racers who apparently still think that drag racing in streets is a victimless crime even after they plowed broadside into her mother's car and killed her. After all, they'd never killed anyone before and they think that it's their constitutional Right to drive however and wherever they feel like it. Perhaps if they'd been jailed sooner, or had their cars impounded, she'd still be alive. Meantime, their lawyer keeps finagling to keep them from paying for what they did, arguing that it was an accident and that they were upstanding young men except for this 'minor incident'.

A guy I used to know got drunk (again) and went out and plowed his car into the ditch and a tree. When the wrecker arrived to pull him out along with the cops (apparently 'investigating'), the cops pulled his driving record and discovered that this was at least his third DUI arrest. When they said that that covered an automatic arrest and trip to the county pokey, he shoved them out of the way (he's about 6'4" and around 280 lbs), slugged the wrecker driver, stole the wrecker and drove off in it, then put THAT into the ditch. He spent 6 months in jail for that little escapade.

And another thing about jails...I'm glad we've got 'em. He was also endangering MY life with him out on the roads. I guess guys like him are the reason that the cops are required to investigate drunks pulled out of ditches.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Julie: I went back to the gas station and appoligized to the lady for funnin at her expense. She said she was sorry for yelling at me also. We both feel better.

My mistake was how I handled it and not so much with if the law was stupid or not. From now on I fill the dumb gas on the ground! Grumble grumble......Kirk

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

You're a good sport Kirk.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

You guys make alot of good points and maybe I should rethink some of this stuff. I've always had problems with authority and I'm certain that's what "drives" some of these issues for me but I swear, no matter how hard I try, I just can't shake the feeling that we're going to hell in a handbasket and more rules and regulations AREN'T the answer.

Something that compounds and complicates things for me in the certain knowledge that big money plays a BIG role in the promulgation of some of these laws and that makes everything suspect.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

Wasn't there an article in Backwoods Home recently about how there are so many laws we all break some if we looked hard enough? Did anyone else see that?

I think it is a national crime that so many folks in the US can't understand their taxes enough to do them themselves for their small business. Now there is something that is overregulated!

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

I am with you john, every piece of my being starts really flaring when I let myself get too taken in by the "world". These lawmakers drive me absolutely crazy. I still think they should only be allowed to meet long enough to decide a budget and then they should all go home and WORK.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001