Well.....what do you think it will be??

More importantly....what do you think it should be??

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Answers

Killing a 5 day old embryo (a child) for it's brain cells is murder & nothing less.

Artificially creating a life (whether in-vitro or by cloning) in order to take that very life is murder compounded by a desire to "be like God". That desire put man in a world of hurt once before - what would we expect the results to be this time?

I wouldn't be shocked if Bush allows it to happen on some kind of limited basis however. Moderate GOPs are getting on that bandwagon & it will be hard for a "politician" like Bush to resist. If he holds firm against it - he will definitely have validated both my trust & my vote.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

I don't know Mark.....I'm bracing for a whole new "read my lips" thing.

If it does...I fear his fate will be the same as his father's "read my lips" mistake.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

That's my fear too - a little too much "politician" may still run through his veins.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

"Stem-cell research" ... murder ... As they say, a rose by any other name ...

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Bush is supposed to address the nation tonight in about 10 minutes (9 PM Eastern time). He is expected to announce that he will be allowing limited research into Stem Cells.

I am very disappointed in this, and I hope that we are not heading toward a disasterous conclusion from trying to "play God" in this way.

Chris Hopper

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Oh well...that answered that.

Soooooooooooo......who we got running as a Republican in 2004???

Remember folks.....this is the guy who said during the presidential race...."Read me lips....no govt. funds for stem cell research."

Oh well....another Republican president bites the dust.

Yes Chris.....it is sad that we are headed down the road of producing human beings for spare body parts.

Maranatha Lord Jesus!!! Come quickly!!!

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Headed down the road? Abortion mills have already been doing this for quite some time now.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Dubyah, the Politician, has spoken !!

Actually........politically speaking, it wasn't a bad call on his part. At least he is only going to fund research on those children who were previously killed under the Clinton Administration. With this decision made, I guess the next ethical question to ask is, "are the stem cells in these previously established "lines" just a group of cells that cannot develop into a person or are they still a living embryo that could become someone. "They" say no........but since when do we believe what "They" say? Funny, "They" say these cells have the potential to form any part of the body - what's to keep them from forming an entire body (like God originally designed them to do).

If nothing else, anyone listening to his speech cannot continue to say Dubyah is stupid or an idiot. He knew more about the subject than most of the "experts" knew....such as the existence of the 60 "lines" of stem cells.....most only thought "just a few" existed.

This whole topic brings up another point to consider.....In-vitro fertilization. Like Dub said, people going this route for pregnancy create more embryos than needed in order to have better odds of getting pregnant. Why haven't Operation Rescue, the churches of America & the World, and various other Pro-Life groups spoken up on behalf of these embryos which are usually "destroyed" after the "parents" don't need them? Sounds like the churches have compromised their Pro-Life stance in this instance....i.e., it is OK to destroy some life in order to create one.

How's this for a slippery slope.......First,we had artificial insemination, then abortion on demand, then test-tube babies, now stem cell research, what is next?............the next elected Liberal President after Dubyah will fully fund all types of stem cell research and if the work is even reasonably successful, you will see women being paid to get pregnant just to have the embryo "harvested" or at least selling their eggs to the highest bidder (that is if cloning doesn't get approved as well).

Sad.............very sad!

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Mark....

You are correct....Bush's decision was extremely politically shrewd!!!

However.....it was still the wrong one!!

Let's suppose their research does show something positive and hopeful.

Where are the next generation of stem cells going to come from??

Exactly!! Just like I said....a production line of human beings for spare parts.

Man....sounds almost like the movie...."The Matrix."

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Either the "Matrix" or else "Coma" - where people were purposely put into terminal comas in order to harvest their organs for transplant There is no difference - death is death, no matter at what age it happens or what you want to title it.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Why not take it to the ultimate extreme?

SOYLENT GREEN!

There was an episode this week of the popular crime drama CSI (Crime Scene Investigators) that harkened to that very thing. A dietician was accused of killing people and surgically removing their organs to sell on the black market, but it turned out she was actually putting them into protein drinks. We may already be in the process of being desensitized to the idea of using people for food.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

You know what the sad part is John.....I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT MOVIE AND SAW IT WHEN IT FIRST CAME OUT!!! :)

Seriously....you are right about the desensitizing issue.

I think as leaders in the church, our biggest job in the next 10 years will be getting church members to wake up to what is going on around them....before it's too late.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

I can top that Danny.........I went to see it at a DRIVE-INN Movie Theater! When was the last time you saw one of those?

But you're absolutely right about the de-sensitizing of America. In fact, I think that is exactly the point behind all of this stem cell nonsense. Personally, I don't think the research will ever yield the touted results and I don't think that researchers believe it either. Stem Cells are being used by the "Anti-God", Liberal Element as a "mis-direction" play (or smoke-screen) to get the minds of America away from right & wrong concerning the murdering of our babies and get us thinking along the lines of what is "best for mankind"...........while constantly masking the fact that killing mankind's babies is never going to benefit mankind!

Such thinking may mark me as one of the "Lunatic Fringe", but come back to this issue 10 years from now and see how close I was.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Hey -- our problem here is deciding which of three drive in theaters to attend if we want to go to the drive in! It's great! $5 each for the parents, children get in free, bring your own food and drink!

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Dang, Darrell.......

Sounds like you're caught in some kind of time warp, I haven't seen a Drive Inn since the College days of my youth.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

You still have DRIVE-INS? They tore the last one down here in the 70's, I think.

Timewarp, indeed! Are your Sheriff's names Andy Taylor and Barney Fife, perchance?

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Nope -- but it sure is great taking the chitlin's to the drivein. They can play on the playground equipment ... through a football ... whatever. We get there early enough to sit in the front row ... back the van in ... get our lawn chairs out and a blanket for the children ... and have a great time!

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Boy.......does the playground equipment and football tossing bring back some OLD memories.................its got my "stem cells" just a jumpin' with old times!!!

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

There was a big article on the front page of our local paper today, about how scientists had gotten stem cells to produce red blood cells, and how this vindicated embryonic stem cell research, speculating a time when stem cells could produce "vats of blood" to replace blood banks.

"Just because we can do a thing, it does not follow that we should do that thing." - The President of the United Federation of Planets, in Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2001

John....

The President of the Federation was exactly correct!!!!

Which just goes to show again why Star Trek will always "rule" over Star Wars!!!!

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2001

Let's update this thread!

Are all of you aware that almost ALL of our vaccines are developed using murdered children?

When we take our children in for their "good for you" vaccines, we are subjecting them to an abomination.

The new smallpox vaccine is also made with stem cell tissue of murdered children.

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001

Laura,

I'd be interested to know your source for this information. Back in my day (when they still actually gave smallpox vaccinations), we were always told that they were made from weakened (incapacitated) smallpox viruses - the same thing with polio, measles, etc. Even today, that is how most in the medical field describe the making of the flu vaccine and many others - either with weakened or killed disease cells. So your info comes as a bit of a shock!

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- BIOLOGICAL WAR-FEAR Smallpox vaccine uses fetal cell line Some Americans may refuse shot, worsening potential outbreak

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

By Jon Dougherty © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

A company that would use a stem-cell line from an aborted fetus to manufacture a new smallpox vaccine is one of only a few firms being considered for a major new government contract despite concerns that the use of such tissues could lead many people to refuse the shots, thereby worsening any outbreak.

The company, Acambis PLC of England, in partnership with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, has already been contracted by the federal government to make 40 million doses of the vaccine.

According to the Washington Post, that contract – signed last year – is set to increase to 54 million doses. But, as a part of a plan being formulated by the Department of Health and Human Services, the number could rise by as much as 250 million doses under new requirements to manufacture enough vaccine for every man, woman and child in the country.

Three other companies besides Acambis are being considered for the new vaccine contract, the Post reported.

The department announced earlier this month that the agency is soliciting bids for the manufacture of a new smallpox vaccine. The current stockpile, at just 15 million doses, is far from adequate should terrorists release new strains of the disease in public, HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson said.

Officials have voiced new concerns over intentional smallpox outbreaks in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks and the outbreak of anthrax at various locations along the East Coast.

Meanwhile, health officials with the Food and Drug Administration say the method of manufacturing the old vaccine, called Dryvax, which was made by Wyeth using calf skin, is "no longer considered optimal." Instead, the agency says the new smallpox vaccine "will be prepared in MRC-5 cells" – a line of aborted fetal cells dating back to 1966 – because that method is more efficient.

"The MRC-5 line was developed … from lung tissue taken from a 14-week fetus aborted for psychiatric reasons from a 27-year-old physically healthy woman," said a description of the cell tissue by the Coriell Institute for Medical Research at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, where the line is maintained. The institute further describes it as "normal human fetal lung fibroblast."

The new manufacturing method has concerned some pro-life groups, who argue that the use of aborted fetal tissue could cause pro-life supporters to refuse it, making any outbreak worse in terms of duration and mortality.

"If enough people refuse the vaccine, we may be faced with serious epidemic problems," said Debi Vinnege, executive director of Children of God For Life, an organization that monitors the use of aborted fetal tissue in the manufacture of vaccines.

"There is no reason to endanger the lives of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans when perfectly acceptable alternative methods may be used to cultivate the smallpox vaccine," she told WorldNetDaily.

Lenore Gelb, a spokeswoman for the FDA, said the use of the stem-cell line for vaccine production was not new, adding that it was not up to her agency to decide who should and should not receive the vaccine.

"The FDA doesn't have that role," she said.

Asked if she was concerned about a prolonged outbreak due to the refusal by some to take the vaccine, she said, "FDA approves a vaccine based on the 'safety and effective' [criteria]." She said "recommendations for who should get a vaccine" were up to the CDC.

Smallpox 'easily transmitted'

Vaccinations to prevent smallpox have not been required in the United States since 1972, says HHS, because it was largely eliminated as a threat in the United States.

Caused by a virus known as Variola major, smallpox "is considered one of the most dangerous potential biological weapons because it is easily transmitted from person to person and because few people carry full immunity to the virus," according to department documentation.

Although a worldwide immunization program eradicated the smallpox disease in 1977, small quantities of the smallpox virus still exist in two secure facilities in the United States and Russia, the government said.

"However, it is possible that unrecognized stores of smallpox virus exist elsewhere in the world," said an HHS assessment.

"Smallpox vaccine has proven to be highly effective in preventing infection. In unvaccinated people exposed to smallpox, the vaccine can lessen the severity of, or even prevent, illness if given within four days after exposure," said Anthony S. Fauci, M.D., director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health, a division of the HHS, in testimony to the Senate Appropriations Committee Nov. 2.

Nevertheless, there is obvious concern among experts that terrorist entities – as they have with anthrax – could eventually reintroduce smallpox into U.S. society. If that happens, some public health experts say extreme measures would be needed to combat the threat.

One such plan is already in the works. Last month, all 50 state governors were sent a copy of a proposal that, if passed into law, would grant each of them new authority to act in the event of a health emergency like a smallpox outbreak.

According to the report, the measure would allow governors – upon the declaration of a health emergency – to invoke the authority to order roads and airports closed, to quarantine entire cities, and to move people to holding facilities like sports stadiums, if need be, to protect the rest of the public from becoming infected.

"In tough times, you have to make tough decisions," Paul Jacobsen, assistant commissioner for the Massachusetts Department of Public Health, told the Boston Herald Monday.

One of those "extreme measures" could be compulsory vaccination, some worry. Under the proposal, even those who philosophically disagree with the ingredients of the vaccine may, under extreme measures, be vaccinated against their will for the good of an entire community.

Nevertheless, April Bell, a spokeswoman for the CDC, told WorldNetDaily that the United States does not currently have a mandatory vaccination requirement. Also, she said that in the event of widespread infection, universal vaccination may not even be necessary.

Under the epidemiological concept of "herd immunity," Bell said, "you would vaccinate around the case. If some people refused to be vaccinated, you vaccinate those they were in contact with," thereby isolating the spread of the disease.

"That's how smallpox was eradicated in the first place," she said, adding that smallpox carries a relatively low – 30 percent – mortality rate.

Bell said the CDC had no position on the state emergency health powers legislation. However, according to Lawrence O. Gostin, director of the Center for Law and the Public's Health at Johns Hopkins and Georgetown Universities, the author of the measure, the "act ensures a strong, effective and timely response to public health emergencies … without unduly interfering" with civil rights and liberties.

"Emergency health threats, including those caused by bioterrorism and epidemics, require the exercise of extraordinary government functions," he wrote in a preamble introduction to his 40- page "model" bill.

The bill was drafted in collaboration with the National Governor's Association, National Conference of State Legislatures, National Association of Attorneys General and the National Association of City and County Health Officers.

Children of God for Life http://www.cogforlife.org/

Please take a look at this sight.

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001

THIS IS MOST DISTURBING!!!!!!!!!!

I did some further research on this use of "fetal cells" at various websites and Laura's post is most accurate. The following vaccines have been made (since the 70's) by infecting these "lines" of fetal diploid lung cells with a particular virus and then extracting the resulting antibodies for use in vaccines:

MMR (measles, mumps, rubeola); Rabies; smallpox; chickenpox; and Hepatitus-A; and there are others.

And it is not just "European" companies doing this either - Merck, an American Pharmaceutical Company is atop the list of those producing these vaccines.

It is absolutely mind-boggling that "scientists" have kept alive, and been reproducing, lung cells from babies aborted in 1961 (WI-38 line) & 1966 (MRC-5 line) just to speed up the vaccine process. IT'S GREED, pure & simple that drives this!!!!! All of these vaccines can be made using aninmal tissues, but it takes longer to get them to the market.

Me thinks that we have a President & Congressmen/Senators that need to be made aware of this travesty (that is if they don't already know and don't really care).

-- Anonymous, December 04, 2001

Mark, I am glad that it is disturbing to you, too. It just plain ol' creeps me out! So far, it's been meet with complacity.

What do you think the spiritual consequences are for our children and society because we inject the cells of murdered children into them?

-- Anonymous, December 04, 2001