To me , our society has an extremely poor attitude regarding death. Of all the members of BTS, I believe JOJ is the only one who could legally choose to be asissted in 'pulling the plug'. Are people so afraid of the unknown that they have to push their fears on everyone else. If i considered my life not worth living, I believe I could end it. What gives anyone else the right to decide for me. Religious oriented funerals I have been to were horrific affairs where some lunatic (in my view) was ranting about some unimaginable afterlife unless everyone bought into his fantasy. I attended my partners fathers funeral and left feeling uplifted and seeing his death as a perfectly natural occurence. Being an atheist, the funeral was a celebration of his life, concentrating on what he was about. This may be a touchy subject for some,no offense intended.

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

Answers

Hm, I just gave a long and kind of gloomy dissertation over on the thread 'Still Feels like something's going to Happen', so I guess I should be a little more brief here.

I believe in assisted suicide. I got into a heated discussion on this subject back on CS last winter. In the state of Wisconsin, you can specify that you do not want any extraordinary or heroic measures be taken to save your life. My mother has a card in her wallet that specifies that she not be given blood under any circumstances. She has also specified in living will that I be put on as the person to choose when to pull life support on her in the event that she is ever so incapacitated.

We had that option when my father had a stroke. We were not sure to what extent he was brain damaged, because occasionally he would respond to someone saying "Hi Jim!" and say "Hi Pat" but then he would drift off again. He would watch Tv for a while, but other times...well, he had to be tied down. We saw improvements in his condition, and although he could not feed himself, my mother authorized a feeding tube into his stomach. We all were hopeful that he might recover somewhat, and it had happened so suddenly, that it was really very devastating to the family. My brother had an especially hard time dealing with the situation I think, and he faithfully spent every day sitting at dad's bedside, hoping for improvement. Eventually, after about two months, my dad died, presumably of another stroke, so the family never did make the decision to remove the feeding tube and let him go.

By that time we had all pretty much come to grips with the situation and the reality that he had been very ill with numerous problems for the past 18 months. Despite his desire to live as long as he could, (his words), perhaps ultimately in the situation he was in, he gave up and was able to die. It was a blow to everyone in the family, but even though there was a lot of crying going on, everyone had come to the face of reality that there WAS no going back to what was. Even if he regained some mental faculties, chances are that he would have to remain in a nursing home as it was just more than my mother and all of us kids could handle (not to mention that his sister, my aunt, is slipping slowly away from us and losing control of her mind -- alzheimers or dementia). We made arrangements for a nursing home that was near where my horses were stabled so that I could stop off to see him there every day since I was making the trip, and because it was a good facility, and handy for everyone else in the family to remain involved, but it was ultimately for naught.

Many people fear the unknown, some fear that death will be accompanied by terrible pain. Many times I feel as if I could die right on the spot with no problem -- if it didn't hurt a lot (like just going to sleep) and if I weren't worrying about who would take care of my animals.

As folks on this board may know, I do watch a lot of 'horror' movies, and people ask me if I'm not afraid of the dead. That accredits an interactive afterlife where spirit lingers and interacts with flesh on this plane. I've had a couple encounters with what sure seems to be spirits that haven't yet passed completely out of this plane -- our dog was one,a pet bird another, my paternal grandmother was another. The dog went on fairly quickly but scared us pretty good as children when he came back down the hall and scratched on our door to be let in after he'd been buried the day before. He hung around a week or two and left.

My grandmother had been dead for some time (20+ years) when Imoved into her house. I began to hear nocturnal sounds, footsteps, and twice the bedroom doorknob was slightly rattled. Once again, it sure did boost the adreneline levels! I'd checked the whole house before bed and the doors, etc., but there was no evidence of a prowler the next day (no footsteps retreated from the bedroom door either and there was no one there). My sister finally suggested that it was perhaps my Gramma Edna come back. She was quite the night owl herself and stayed up all hours of the night, and slowly lost her mind to dementia too before she died. Finally, I solved the problem in two nights -- when the noises started up, I announced "Gramma, it's me, Julie. I'm going to bed now and going to sleep. Could you please be a little more quiet for me?"

Strangely enough, it worked. Those noises subsided and stopped and no repeats since. Some people said it was probably an air bubble knocking in the baseboard heat, but sounds were coming from the ceiling. Raccoons then -- the attic was opened and no critters found hibernating.

One of my aunts had a near-death experience in a car accident a few years before she died from diabetes. When she died, she did so quite peacefully and willingly since she had already seen the other side of life, had raised her children, and looked forward to whatever lay beyond.

Well, I'll sign off. I'm not sure that was what you wanted to discuss at all, and I'm getting pinged every few minutes and it's making typing a pain.

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

Jz, you wrote: "Of all the members of BTS, I believe JOJ is the only one who could legally choose to be asissted in 'pulling the plug'."

I don't think I understood that sentence. Could you explain? Do you mean that it's illegal in most States or what?

There are medical circumstances in Wisconsin that allow "pulling the plug", as Julie noted. Of course, there are many situations where it is not.

I don't fear BEING dead. I have no fear of going to 'Hell'. If dead is all there is, okay. If there's an afterlife, I guess I'll find out, and learn as I go. I knew nothing about being a human when I was born either, so I've been finding out about that ever since. I am not looking forward to the PROCESS of getting to be dead (i.e. dying) -- or maybe I should say the final process, since I'm already "in process". But I don't dwell on how I'm gonna go -- mostly because it interferes with my enjoyment of what I've got going on now.

All that said, I really would HATE to moulder away in dementia. I'd want someone to just put me out of my misery. In fact, since I have done and will do that for all my beloved animals, and would do it for my beloved humans (if I could get away with it), I think it is CRUEL to force humans to suffer before they finally die.

I surely do think there should be more legal latitude for those of us who feel that way to make such arrangements. I also don't think euthanasia should be forced upon the old and/or infirm for someone's convenience or greed. But I know of any number of old folks who have ASKED to die repeatedly, and there is no legal recourse to help them. One of these days, I am going to have to join the Hemlock Society so that I can, hopefully, orchestrate my own exit.

I really do think that if one's religion is against suicide or assisted suicide, those beliefs should be honored -- for that person. I vehemently feel that the beliefs of a religion that is NOT mine should not be imposed on me.

I hope I'm discussing what you had in mind . . . .

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

I agree jz - death is a perfectly natural occurance. And it really should be a celebration. Death is such a personal thing - I believe we all have the right to deal with it in whatever way we are comfortable. I'm not sure there is a right or wrong way - in each of our innerselves, be it our heart, our soul or whatever you might deem it, we deal with it as we can. I do know, tho, that if you have a preference for how your earthly body is treated when you die, then you better have it somewhere in writing with a trustworthy person! I, too, have had experiences with souls departed - and if anything, it has shown me that death is nothing to be afeared of.

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

Joy, I meant that Oregon is the only state in which residents can ask their physician to assist them in ending their life. There are several qualifiers of course but I don't recall exactly what they all were. Funny thing is how few people utilize the choice but still felt it valuable knowing that if their pain was too intense and they had no chance of recovery, they would have the option to end it. We had dinner tonight with an older couple with a great end of life story. Ivas' mother, at the age of 73 was in the hospital with a serious illness. She told her daughter that she felt that this was her day to die, she just had that feeling. Well this upset Iva to say the least and she let mom know that it was pretty damn selfish to leave before her granddaughter (who was three) really got to know grandma. Next morning grandma was still breathing so she told Iva she would give her ten years. About a week shy of the ten year mark grams reminded Iva of her promise. Iva swore grandma died in her sleep exactly 10 years, to the day, after she made the promise. Reminds me of Scott Nearing who did an elective death thing after he reached the century mark. I believe he just quit eating.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Yes, I think that I would like to have that right to end my life if it came down to it. My Grandfather on my Fathers side was dying of terminal cancer, they had sent him home to die. He hadn't been able to get out of bed and Grandma had been taking care of him. The last thing that he had said to her, was "I don't want you to have to take care of me like this." he then found some last remaning strength to drag himself outside to do himself in.

There are some religious souls in our family who mourn the fact that Grandpa will not enter the gates of heaven because he committed suicide. I say thats a bowl of crock!

Tren

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Dianne, Willow, I love what you wrote.

I believe that Dying will be a birth to go through, but it will not be the end. More, I feel for the ones left behind. The ones who see only an empty shell, where a loved one once was. It is this emptyness that we feel on this side that is the hard part.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

This post in a very timely one for me and my family. My husband's father just passed away yesterday. The day before his 88th birthday his heart stopped. The EMTs very able to get his heart going again but he had already suffered brain damage.

This man was brilliant! He had been an engineer/inventor and had worked at the same place for over 50 years. You know those little plastic strips that hold price tags to clothing? Well, he invented that and the device that is used to attach them to clothing. It's called a "Swiftacher". He was also a violin bow maker and restorer. People from all over the world used to send him their bows to repair. He did much work for the Boston Symphony. Many of his bows are highly valued. The reason I'm telling you this is that when his mind went I believe he had no more reason to live. My husband said this was his father's worst nightmare. He and my MIL had a living will. Because of this, when he suffered a brain hemmorage two days later, the family refused to keep him alive on machines. The only thing he received was morphine to keep him comfortable. The doctors said "One to four days." He held on for six. Yes, he was a tough old bird!

Anytime we lose a loved one we, not they, are the ones who are suffering. I strongly believe that to keep someone alive on machines when there is no possibility that they will recover is a cruel thing to do. My greatest fear is that I will develop Alsheimer's and not be aware enough to end my own suffering. DH and I also have a living will but that doesn't allow for mind debilitating diseases.

Monday, we'll bury my husband's father in the family cemetary in rural Vermont. It will be the end of his physical life but his memory will remain strong within us. His work ethic, his frugility, his sense of humor will all stay with us and as long as we remember him in our hearts he'll never really be "gone".

Wishing you enough.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Sorry to hear about your father-in-law's death Dianne. My father passed away nearly five years ago; a sudden heart attack. No previous pain, just felt a little nausous(sp?). He was down for 20 minutes before he could be resuscitated by the EMTs. The doctor told us at the hospital that beyond five minutes, degrees of brain damage would have to be expected. They gave us the option of 'non resuscitation' and we took it. He would have hated to exist in a vegetable state. He always said, "Hey, when it your turn, its your turn. Nobody gets outa here alive." We remember him as he would have wanted to be remembered: a good father, loving husband, good friend.

I wish YOUR family enough . . . Our condolensces.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001