Romans 5:19 is a very declaritive statement: "For as through one man's disobedience the many WERE MADE sinners....."

It is obvious from that statement that we inherited something from Adam. I don't know how else to "spin" that.

Exactly what we have inherited....has been the center of debate here recently.....but certainly it is not limited to this forum. It seems to have been a center of debate since the Reformation movement.

Allow me to put another twist in viewing this verse. I want to share the view of one of the leading theologians of our day in the RM. He is still teaching. I won't mention his name but most here would know him.

While taking a class on theology under him.....he shared a very helpful insight on this passage. His view on the first part of this verse....("all were made sinners").....in my opinion.....came very close to an "original sin" point of view....i.e., we even inherited the guilt of Adam's sin.

Just as my gander was about to get up.....he finished his comments on the rest of the verse. The rest of the verse reads...."even so through the obedience of One, the many will be made righteous."

He said....and I quote......"Whatever we inherited from Adam, whatever your view is, doesn't really matter. The fact is.....whatever we got from Adam.....Christ took away."

I believe that is a good way to view this discussion. I'm not sure it really matters what each of us view as the "sinful nature" we inherited for Adam.

What really matters....is understanding that whatever we inherited from Adam......was taken away by Christ.

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

Answers

Danny,

I think I know of whom you speak. I heard the very same expression (Christ took it away) used last Wednesday night in our study of Romans.

To some it may seem a "cop-out" on what was inherited through Adam - but it may well be the best answer as we will probably never know for sure what it is (at least until the Lord returns).

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

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Brother Danny: I have been quite busy lately but I want to take the tie to reply to you since I hold you in such high regard. I will begin by giving a quotation of Romans 5:12-22 and making a few comments about its meaning. I will also respond to only a portion of what you have said and will return later to speak to the rest of your post.

The passage is very accurately translated in the “oracles of God” translation as follows:

“12.--Wherefore, as sin entered into the world by one man, in whom all sinned, and by sin, death: thus death came upon all men. (For sin was in the world till the law: but sin is not imputed, when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them who had not sinned, in the manner of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift: for if by the offence of the one, the many died; much more the favor of God, and the gift by favor, which is of the one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded to the many. And not as through one who sinned, is the free gift: for the sentence was from one to condemnation; but the free gift is from many offences to justification. For if by the offence of the one, death reigned by the one; much more shall they, who receive the abundance of favor, and of the gift of justification, reign in life, by the one--Jesus Christ.) Now, therefore, as through one offence, the sentence came upon all men to condemnation: so, also, by one act of obedience, the sentence came upon all men to justification of life. For as through the disobedience of one man, the many were constituted sinners; so by the obedience of the one, the many shall be constituted righteous. Moreover, the law supervened, that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded, favor superabounded--that as sin reigned by death, so, also, favor might reign by justification to eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:12-22 Oracles of God translation).

Now it is clear that Paul is speaking here to contrast Adam and Christ. And that at least two things came from them each that are contrasted. Through the former all men were “constituted sinners” and through the latter all men were “constituted righteous”. And through the former “death reigned” over all men and through the latter “life reigned” over all men. None of those who were “constituted sinners” because of Adam’s sins were actually sinners because of his sin just as none of those who were constituted righteous because of the obedience of Christ were actually righteous. But as it was just of God to condemn the entire human race to physical death because of the sin of Adam. And that he did so by removing access to the tree of life whereby men could “eat and live forever” as a punishment for Adam’s sin thus all men have no remedy for death. Just so through Christ all men who have died physically as a result of the punishment of Adam’s sin shall be raised from the dead because of the forgiveness of Adam’s sin by the obedience of Christ. Even Christ himself suffered death because of Adam’s sin and he was the first born from the dead showing that he had overcome punishment of Adam’s sin and removed the effect of its consequence for all men.

And there is simply nothing more to this. There is not a word in this passage that was intended to imply that there was any change in our natures resulting from Adam’s sin that would in some innate way make us sinners “by nature”.

And I repeat that, though you have given just notice to my questions and warned others of the dangers they point to, none have bothered to answer my questions concerning the fact that Christ took upon himself our very nature. And if all that possess human nature are MADE SINNERS by God because of Adam’s sin then Christ was also MADE A SINNER. For whatever is our nature was Christ nature while he was on this earth. And I would hope that none would conclude that since Christ took on our nature that God too MADE him A SINNER through some mystical change in human nature that was inherited from Adam. For if we all actually sinned in our physical father Adam then Christ actually sinned. And if we all inherited a corrupt nature from our physical father Adam then Christ also inherited the same corrupt nature for he also took upon him our very nature. (Heb. 2:14-18; Phil. 2:5-8).

Now just why is it that none of you who think that all men have inherited sin from Adam have avoided answering my very pertinent and pointed question about Christ inheriting sin or being MADE A SINNER when he took upon himself our very nature as a human being? Is it because you want me to do all of the responding and answering of questions or is it because you do not want to admit that there just might be a point to seriously consider in this question? Or is it that you just do not have a good answer to this question. But I have asked it now four or five times. What is the problem? Why not give some kind of response to it? When I do not respond quickly enough to suit some they hasten to point out that I have not responded. But I can ask questions until I am “blue in the face” and they remain simply ignored. Why is that brethren? I know that my manner of speaking has alienated some of you but that is no excuse for just ignoring important questions, now is it?

Brother Danny:

You have accurately and correctly pointed to a very good question and one that deserves very much a serious and reasonable reply and I shall do my best to respond appropriately to it. You asked:

“Lee..... Your exegesis fails to account for Romans 5:19...(in fact...you stopped short by stopping at vs. 18). 5:19 states....."For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many WERE MADE SINNERS....." It is obvious from this passage Lee....that much more than physical death is meant.”

You are very correct in point to the fact that I “stopped short at verse 18”. And I can assure you, as the fact that I am known for writing lengthy post demonstrates, that I did not intentionally stop short. And I was not ignoring the verse because I see any conflict with what this verse says and my rejection of the false notion that we are “sinners by nature and by choice” as Brother Davis’ Creed asserts. Rather, I was writing from my desk at work and did not have the time to go into all that we should know about this verse and how it fits the argument made by Paul in this place. In fact, I wanted very much to talk about this verse for it holds a significant “key” to the understanding of the entire passage. My previous post was not intended to be a detailed “exegesis” of the passage but rather a response to the verses quoted by Brother Davis. He quoted through the 22nd verse of this chapter and I only had time to discuss through verse 18. And then I had to go back to work.

And the passage does, in most versions read as you have quoted it thus:

“5:19 states....."For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many WERE MADE SINNERS…”

But your assertion is not correct that:

“It is obvious from this passage Lee....that much more than physical death is meant.”

It is not as “obvious” as it might seem Brother Danny. I admit to you that on the surface it so appears but it is not quite so obvious for if such were its meaning it would make CHRIST HIMSELF a sinner. For Christ was among the “many” human beings that lived after the sin of Adam and that partook of the same nature as all of the rest of the “many” who were MADE SINNERS by God because of Adam’s sin. Therefore it is not quite obvious that the “many spoken of here were made to be ACTUAL SINNERS by some corruption in their inherent nature resulting from Adam’s sin now is it? For if such were true then Christ was possessed of the same corrupt nature and was also MADE A SINNER by it. But it is true that all men suffered the consequences of the punishment of Adam’s sin, which was that they no longer had the remedy for death that was provided in the Garden of Eden for man. For they had all been denied access to the tree of life from which man could “eat and live forever”. Therefore “death reigned over all men INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST who took upon himself the nature of man and was made in the likeness of man and was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin. And who suffered death just as we all do. But his obedience ended this “reign of death” for all men including himself for he was the “firstborn from the dead” that all men would be raised from the dead as well as he. But they would not be raised because they inherited a “righteous and incorrupt nature from him. And the entire human race did not suddenly and mystically have any immediate change in their human nature as a result of his death. But they were made free from death. “Oh death where is thy victory?”. It has no more reigns over us for all men whether they are actually righteous or not will be raised from the dead. But not all will be raised to eternal life (John 5:28,29). For they will be punished after the resurrection for their personal sins unless they obey the gospel of Christ to obtain the forgiveness of them. (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).

Now, here are a few things to consider about this verse and what it actually says. This verse furnishes a reason for what is said in the 18th verse. For in that verse it is merely asserted that by one sin, on the one hand, the SENTENCE OF DEATH came upon all men to condemnation. And that by the righteous act of the one, on the other hand, the reversal of the sentence of death that was passed upon all men was achieved. SO that because of Adam’s sin man was deprived of access to the tree of life and therefore was condemned to die. And because of Christ’s obedience or righteousness all men will be raised from the dead so that they are no longer punished because of the consequences of Adam’s sin. But no reason is assigned for these assertions in verse 18. But verse 19 gives the reason for them.

It tells us that “the many were made sinners”. But this should be more properly and with less confuse translated as “the many were constituted sinners” rather than that they were ACTUALLY MADE SINNERS. The verb "kateestathesan” is here in this verse a very significant word; indeed it is the key that unlocks the meaning of the verse. It signifies to “set down, make, appoint, ordain, constitute.” These are its most common meanings and from them the word Constitute seems in this place to exactly express sense in which the word is used in this verse.

The verb is passive and means “were constituted”. Who were “constituted”? The “hoi polloi” the many. But the many did not constitute themselves; not by anything they ever did or thought. The act of constitution another’s, not theirs. They were constituted- by whom? The passage would appear to teach that it was by the disobedience of the one man. It reads, “ for as by the disobedience of one man the many were constituted…” But this is incorrect. The disobedience of the one did not “constitute the many” either as subject or agent. It was instead the means THROUGH which or the REASON WHY ANOTHER constituted them. Did Adam constitute them? Certianly not! For whoever constituted them sinners is also the one who constituted them just. This fact alone excludes Adam. God, then must have been the one to have constituted them sinners for there is no one else that could have done so.

But what did He “constitute” them? He “constituted” them “harmartoloi”, sinners. Now note carefully that the “many” were not sinners within and of themselves, or by any acts of theirs. Instead they were “constituted sinners”. WE cannot constitute him a sinner who is one by his own act. If he is a sinner by his own act, he is so independently of all acts of “constitution” Nor did God “constitute” the many sinners through, or because of, any acts of their own. He constituted them sinners through the disobedience of Adam. Before that disobedience they were not constituted sinners but after it they were. God must, then have constitute them sinners through, or by means of Adam’s sin, and because of it. This I believe to have been the fact. And, if so, it is the precise reason for saying they were constituted sinners. It is not said of Adam that he was “constituted” a sinner. Of course not for he was actually and in fact a sinner. And therefore could not be a “constituted” one. But at the instant of their being constituted his posterity was not sinners as he was. They had committed no sin, except as through him sinning for them. Therefore they were merely “constituted sinners” and not actual sinners. And nothing was done to human nature to corrupt it or in any way whatsoever to make anyone ACTUAL sinners simply by some mystical, and I might add completely imaginary, corrupt human nature! Nothing anywhere in this entire passage and its context even remotely implies that human nature itself was corrupted by Adam’s sin. Nor that anything was inherited by his posterity from him that would cause us to actually be guilty of sin or prone to sin any more than Adam himself was prone to sin before he actually disobeyed God. There is nothing in the entire word of God that would teach us that man’s nature was actually corrupted directly by Adam’s sin. Now as sin became prevalent surely many learned traits and behaviors may have mad sin more deceptive and obedience far more difficult but nothing in the innate nature of mans make up as a creature of God was “corrupted” by sin.

But God “constituted the “many” sinners. Now in what sense are we to take the word “harmatoloi”? Are we to take it as meaning actual sinners? Were the word “sinners” (harmartoloi) unqualified this view would be correct. But as it the case stands in this context it is not. The many “were constituted” sinners. The verb “katestathesan” itself qualifies the word. For example, when I say that the keyboard upon which I write was made, has the phrase “was made” no qualifying effect? It not only implies that the keyboard did not make itself; but it also excludes the idea of its being unmade or eternal. So when Paul says that the “many were constituted sinners. He implies that they did not make themselves sinners by their own actions. In so becoming they took no part. But rather they were merely “constituted” sinners. The truth is, the very object of choosing the verb used was to negative the notion of their being actual sinners and it effectively does just that. God constituted the many as sinners through Adam’s sin and because of it. But this was not done because of any guilt of their own, or with a view to it. The sole reason was Adam’s sin and the sole end was death.

Now just how did God “constituted them as sinners? He did so when he punished Adam by banishing him from the Garden of Eden and preventing him or any of his posterity from ever having access to the tree of life from which they had heretofore been able to “eat and live forever”. Thus all men from that very day forward were subject to death. They had no means to prevent it! And thus, though they had never sinned themselves but because they were the descendents of one who did. And if God had only allowed Adam to die and allowed his descendents to live forever his promise to Adam that he would die would have been over thrown by his living descendents. But because all men die, Adam has been punished as God promised. For not only did he die but all men after him have died and will die until Christ returns. And then death will lose its sting! And all who have died because of Adam’s sin shall be “made alive" because of Christ’s obedience. All men will be raised from the dead whether they are saints or sinners or Christians or evil. All men will be raised from the dead and when that happens the consequence of Adam’s sin is over forever! But this has nothing to say about the forgiveness of those who are actual sinners by their own acts of disobedience. For their consequences are spiritual death. And this is not taken away by the obedience of Christ. It is taken away by the sacrifice of Christ blood and our faithful response to the gospel in repentance and baptism FOR THE REMISSION OF THOSE SINS. (Acts 2:38).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001