One of the "stands' of the RM for years has been that we call Bible things by Bible names.

As I noted in the "Statement of Faith" thread, and as Danny added, it seems that we have come to a time where it might not always be the best track to call Bible things by Bible names.

Don't get me wrong ... I would love to do that. But we have a problem with the "baggage" many people have when they come to us. Some examples:

BORN AGAIN -- as Danny noted, this is not always the best way to describe a person's conversion. First -- the Charasmatics have used this term to mean something different than what the Bible means. i.e. "I hear you are a Christan, but are you a BORN AGAIN Christian?" Of course, biblically speaking, this is double-speak, like sayiny "Are you a Christian Christian?" We know what they mean by born again, so the current usage of the term has made the biblical useage of the term suspect ... sometimes.

SINFUL NATURE OF MAN (and other similar passages) -- Again, due to Calvinistic thinking, while we understand man's leaning towards sin, when we use this term it can easily be associated with their belief in the inheritance of Adam's sin.

CHARISMATIC -- Hey, I am certainly a charismatic person ... biblically speaking. I am filled with the Holy Spirit, and have been so since my immersion into Christ many years ago. But if I introduce myself to someone and say I am charismatic, they MIGHT think I'm into speaking in gibberish and pew-jumping. How sad another good biblical term is no longer useable without much explanation.

BAPTISIM -- It if very seldom, if ever, that I use the word baptism today. Since it has come to mean so many different things to so many different people, I choose to say "immersion." How many times have you heard someone explaining the salvation process to another person, use the word baptize, then have to explain that baptism is immersion? It's kinda like my last week at camp. We had a large group of inner-city children from a mission in Johnstown. They all came with Bibles, but the were cast-off Bibles, the vast majority very old copies of the KJV. So when they would read a passage, many times I would have to stop the lesson to explain the terms used in the KJV that are no longer used in todays language. What a waste of time. Same thing when we have to "explain" what baptism is ... just say immersion or dunking or something like that, and it is self-explanatory. Of course, this would never have been a problem at all if the translators of the KJV actually TRANSLATED the word rather than TRANSLITERATING it from the greek to a new english word.

Okay -- any more examples of good biblical words or terms that we can no longer use "safely" anymore?

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Answers

The term "Pastor" or even "Minister" is somewhat similiar. There has been much discusion on this and it may not be necessary to bring it all up again.

I agree that a pastor is a shepherd or elder and all Christians are to be ministers. Yet in todays society I have a hard time calling someone or introducing myself and explaining who I am other than using these words.

I often do use these words... yet must admit don't always feel they are the most accurate... yet as a "preacher"... I feel I am a "pastor" (shepherd or paid elder) and I am a "minister"... It is just that I am not the only one in the congregation, just the only one paid.

Any thoughts? What do you preachers refer to yourself as when it is necessary to identify yourself? (I go by Marc most all the time unless I feel I must identify my position).

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Marc......

I really don't understand where you are coming from.

In 21 years of ministry at no time have I ever felt the need to use the term "Pastor."

Following your logic....one should also feel the pressure to use the term "Reverand"....or "Father."

For me.....Danny works most of the time......the rest of the time....it's "Preacher."

Darrell......this is one reason when preaching, teaching, or simply discussing.....I use the term "immersion".....in place of the word baptism.

And I never call John a "Baptist."

It's John the "Plugger, Dipper, Immerser."

One way to stop the nonsense is to stop our people from using the words. When I first came to Kent 2 1/2 years ago.....it took about 3 months to stop that "Pastor" business.

Now....they wouldn't dare!

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

re: pastor. I would have no problem, BIBLICALLY SPEAKING, to use the term pastor for myself IF I were seen as one of the pastors/elders/shepherds of the congregation. That does take place in some churches, where the "paid minister" is seen as a "paid elder." In that case, he is a pastor ... one of the pastors ... and not THE pastor.

Even so, I might have a problem using that biblical term in light of it's misuse over the years. Again, a biblical word we might choose not to use due to todays parlance.

Any others?

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

must be a regional thing, because in every Christian Church I've ever been in in Arizona, California and Washington, the paid minister has always been referred to as the pastor. Although I do remember a time in my youth, some 30 years ago, when minister was the preferred term.

And pardon me for being stupid, but I am failing to see the fine line between our having an inherent leaning toward sin, and our having inherited this from Adam. To me its saying essentially the same thing. That we are all warped, bent creatures, and that it is a direct result of Adam's original transgression and the curse that followed. (I understand that Calvinists believe that mankind cannot overcome that bent on his own outside of God's intervention even to the point of giving him faith, but other than that, I fail to see the real distinction.)

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

John....

That's why we in the Bible belt refer to that area of the country as......"the left coast."

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Ohhhh....and Darrell.....I fully agree!!!

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Does one have to be "officially recognized" or voted in or what ever system you use to be considered a pastor/shepherd/or elder?

What I am trying to ask is... although a preacher may not be an "official" elder, in most cases he serves as a shepherd (elder).

Danny, just curious, does your church have a sign out front with your name on it or do you have an add in the phonebook or newspaper? If so what are you refered to?

Yes, John, it is a regional thing to be called pastor. We have just as hard of time in the NorthWest getting people to understand that we are not a denomination or the Church of Christ is not the same as the United Church of Christ or Church of Christ of Later Day Saints.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

I have been using the term "Preaching Minister" for some time now. I believe all Christians are called to be ministers ... I just happen to be the one who is called to be the PRIMARY preaching minister. I don't say "preacher" as we have others who occasionally preach. I remember in Cocoa Danny, David and I were all referred to as Preacher Danny, Preacher David, and Preacher Darrell.

I used the term Equipping Minister in Charleston, in hopes that folks would understand my "job" was to equip the body through preaching, teaching, discipling, and any other method or avenue I could use to equip them to be, as we called the body there, "a congregation of ministers."

Any OTHER biblical terms we don't seem to be able to use today?

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

I am also curious as to your thoughts on naming churches. Many like "Church of Christ" because of Romans 16:16. Although this is the only time this term is used (other than Gal.1:22 in some versions), I do believe that the Church is Christ's Church, is it not?

If I remember right Christian Church is not even used in the NT. And I believe that Church of God is used something like 8 times.

If we want to stick to Bible names, should we rename our churches Church of God or simply the church in.... (your town) as often used in the NT. Again, in todays world both of the would create confusion.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Marc -- re: voting, etc. Congregations differ on this. Some have very extensive by-laws that require yearly votes, certain percentages to accept a new elder/deacon whatever, etc. Others leave it up to the current elders to oversee the selection process.

As atonomious (sp?) congregations, it is up to each to select their elders as they see fit.

And yes ... in many congregations the "paid staff person" does serve as an elder. Sadly, in many congregations, he is the only one truly doing the work that the elders SHOULD be doing ... and that, my friends, is yet another thread!

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Marc -- re: the name of the local congregation. I have heard it taught that "Christian Church" is the better rendering of passages that many translations use "Church of Christ." I have always wondered ... shouldn't it be the "Church of THE Christ" since His name wasn't Jesus Christ, but Jesus, THE Christ (the messiah). Just a thought there.

Once our contemporary service "gets wings of it's own" here in Indiana, we are talking about calling ourselves "The Church At Indiana." Very biblical, but then I'm sure it will raise the ire of other bodies located in this town.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Marc.....to be honest...in my congregation...I do very little shepherding. The elders do that. My responsibility lies mostly with the new converts.....bringing in....teaching...and assimilating. I, like Darrell, also focus on equipping others to the work of service.

As per the name....."Christian Church" it is simply the English way of showing possession....i.e., Christian Church equal....the Church that belongs to Christ.

Personally....I have no problem with any biblical name for the church....be it Church of God....Church of Christ.....or just plain Church.

It all comes back to teaching, teaching, teaching, teaching...and more teaching.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Hi All,

In my former congregation I was always referred to as "the preacher", or "the minister". Here in Minnesota I am known as "the pastor". It's really just a matter of semantics. They viewed my role as the same in both situations. I know some of you won't agree, but I really don't see what the big deal is. I am a pastor, I also preach, and I minister.

IHS,

Barry

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Sloppiness in small things.....leads to sloppiness in big things.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Barry -- I understand you are "A" pastor in your congregation ... so am I. My question would be, are you seen as "THE" pastor? That term denotes THE person in charge of shepherding the flock ... or at least it does in the eyes of many who would visit your congregation from outside of the RM background. And as I noted before, in your congregation, you just might be THE person in charge, or THE person in charge of shepherding the flock.

Question -- if you use the term pastor for yourself, do you also use that term for the other pastors (i.e. elders) in your congregation? I have seen some congregations that call all the elders (including their paid staff person) pastor ... and I certainly would not have any problems with that.

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Darrell,

The term "pastor" is only applied to me. I have no objections to the elders being called pastor, or me being called "elder" for that matter. The fact is, it is difficult to apply the biblical terminology because most of our leadership systems are not all that close to the NT. From my experience, most in the Restoration Movement insist on using the biblical terminology, but couldn't care less about the biblical application.

IHS,

Barry

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Danny,

I agree with you, but there is no sloppiness here. I am a pastor, plain and simple.

IHS,

Barry

-- Anonymous, August 07, 2001

Let me open up another can of worms then (since we seem to be in a bait shop ...). Darrell, you say you "just happen to be the one who is called to be the PRIMARY preaching minister." I've been in few churches where anyone else in the congregation was ever allowed to speak publically, regardless of their giftedness, and little or no effort was put into discovering the gifts of any of the congregants. In my own church, I believe that to be one of the reasons we've had some rather crippling problems is because we have neglected the gifts of those in the congregation, who, unable to express those gifts, left. Why is it that we have come to have an institutionalized system where we hire one person who is the only one who can occupy the pulpit and deliver a sermon, and anyone else who even dares express an interest is looked at askance?

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

John -- I agree! In Charleston I shared the pulpit 50/50 with one of the elders. Now, he was Bible collee and seminary trained, and that did help. We had some others that we encouraged t preach, and when they were willing we used them. And I had no problem with that.

It seems to me the model of the NT evangelist was one who went into areas, started or helped congregations, and equipped the people to do the kingdom work that needed doing. I would hope that would include teaching the elders to preach ... and anyone else who is gifted by God in that respect. In fact, if the evangelist did his thing correctly, he would "equip himself out of a job" and then head somewhere else to do it again!

Every now and then I run across a congregation where the elders (and maybe some others) do the preaching and teaching, and they do not hire a "preacher" "pastor" etc. And every now and then the model works, ptl!

re: my being the PRIMARY preacher, that is what I am called to do, and I do it. But at no time do I "guard my pulpit" in order to keep qualified men out of it. Now ... I DO guard "my" pulpit with regards to ensuring that whoever stands there preaches the Bible correctly!

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

I have no problems with the elders preaching on a regular basis as Darrell Combs knows full well.

But I do have a problem with letting just anybody speak.

If you are going to speak....you need to have something to say. And...in order to have something to say....you need to have put the time into "the Book".....and the books.

Need I bring up the James scripture....."Let not many of you teach."

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

I agree. But many who have been in the faith many a year, and are quite mature, and have a gift for public speaking and oratory, are not allowed to deliver a sermon because the pulpit is guarded by the "pastor" and the elders. When we read in the New Testament that the church meetings were participatory and that everyone should come with something to contribute, this is very close to sin.

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

Danny,

You have said, "...in order to have something to say....you need to have put the time into "the Book".....and the books." I'm just wondering what the ".....and the books." portion means? I'm wondering if you are getting at that one needs to be 'specially trained' beyond studying the Bible in order to Preach/Teach?

I would like input from everyone on something that is related to that.... The church I am currently associated with has a couple of 'unwritten standards' concerning their paid staff (Preacher/Education Minister/Youth Minister/Etc.)....

First, in order for an individual to be considered for a paid position, they must have a Bible College degree. Second, in order to be considered for a paid position, the individual must not come from within the church body.

Comments?

-- Anonymous, August 08, 2001

Robin....

I think a person needs to have a well rounded education (including English, history, literature, etc.)....in order to be a good communicator.

Whether that education is formal or not means little to me.

Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met did not have a semester of college....however....they were well read and well conversant.

However, when it comes to "calling" a preacher to a congregation.....I see no problem with laying down some minimum requirements (i.e., a BA degree).

Every congregation has the freedom to decide what educational requirements would best fit their congregation.

When it all boils down, however, the most important requirement is his knowledge of the Bible.

In this day and age.....I do not think it is safe to assume that a Bible college graduate has a good handle on biblical matters. A lot of curriculum now is taken up filling "accreditation" requirements which in turn squeezes out more biblical studies.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Robin,

Concerning your general question about your church's "unwritten" policies, I have mixed feelings.

1) Mandatory Bible College Degree:

The Elders, as the spiritual leaders of the church and as potential employers, certainly have every right to establish a set of benchmarks by which to screen candidates. If they deem that a B.C. degree is required to be assured of their Biblical knowledge, then so be it. However, as Danny stated, there are a lot of men who are very knowledgable in Bible and rather adept at public speaking who will be arbitrarily excluded from consideration. One could almost consider such a rule to be a squelching of the Holy Spirit as you might well have spiritually or emotionally wounded a well-qualified individual. At the very least - make it a "written" requirement so that candidates know what to expect right up front............it would be the "Christian" thing to do.

2) No "paid" staff from among the congregation:

I can see the point of wanting to "avoid the appearance of evil" in the form of an accused conflict of interest when hiring from within. However, imagine what it would be like if........ you had grown up all your life in the XYZ Church and as a young man felt the desire to go into the fulltime ministry and were then told (under the table) that you could never serve in your home church -------- another crushing blow levied upon a servant that I personally would not want to be responsible for.

Just my thoughts, Brother.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Danny and Mark,

Thanks for replying.

Here are some of my thoughts on this.... I'm mainly thinking along the lines of the Youth Minister rather than the Preaching Minister... but really believe it is about the same.

1) Mandatory Bible College Degree

Isn't it extremely inconsistent to require a Bible College Degree of the paid staff... and not of the Elders? The Elders have tremendous responsibility in the congregation. They are responsible for knowing the flock (communication), for guarding against False Teachers and for Teaching, etc., etc. I feel that a special requirement for the paid staff... heads toward the Clergy/Laity set-up.

2) No "paid" staff from among the congregation

Is this at all scriptural? The Bible seems to indicate that we (within the body) should be training up our Youth... to train up others. The Bible seems to indicate that those within the body that do the work... are the ones worthy of their wages.

Mark, you have said, "I can see the point of wanting to "avoid the appearance of evil" in the form of an accused conflict of interest when hiring from within." That seems really weak to me.... Who could the elders possibly know better than someone from their own flock?? Shouldn't the elders be training up young people in the congregation to teach?

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Robin....

First....I have no problem with paid staff from within the congregation. In fact, as Mark can tell you....that's been a way of life for me in my 21 years of ministry. The list is long of the number of Timothy's I have raised up in congregations I have served. Very Scriptural!!

Second....as per it being inconsistent to require a Bible College degree from a preacher candidate....not at all!!!

Especially when you see the preacher as the equipper....and that includes equipping the elders.

This is the very reason that in my last congregation and the one I am currently serving I have worked with Summit Theological Seminary to develop college extension courses at our church.

In my last church....the elders were able to take a total of 30 hours of college level training....and receive credit for it. Mark...was one of the recipients of this training. In fact, he was an elder when he started. We started the program to train the elders for their work of shepherding......and it grew and grew...till more and more were taking it.

The same thing is going on where I'm at now. We have a college extension program with 18 students and 1 grad student enrolled. We have now completed our first year here of that....with all three elders enrolled.

Bottom line....this would not be possible without my credentials.

Again....you are correct in saying it is inconsistent if we are going to view the preacher as "the" pastor.

However....if we view the preacher as equipper (in line with Ephesians 4)....it makes perfect sense.

I hope Mark will jump on here and let you know what a blessing it was to have the college extension program we did....and how serious I am about training and equipping elders.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2001

Robin,

I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Overall, I have some serious problems with those "Unwritten" rules and if I were under consideration at that church and were made aware of these during the interview process.......I would voice those problems and probably remove myself from consideration (depending on how they received my comments).

As far as the "conflict of interest" is concerned, I can see their thinking process.....I just don't agree with it. In fact, Danny & I may not have left a previous ministry had it not been for my resigning my Eldership in order to not create a possible "conflict" - a mistake that will not be repeated on my part.

And as both you & Danny replied - training the church Elders is a major need today. All too often, it is merely an "elected" position and not an earned one. However, that can be changed via training & teaching. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be elected to the position - but it is a crime against God & His people to be elected & not strive to know as much about God's Word as humanly possible and apply that knowledge in shepherding the flock of the Lord. Money really has nothing to do with this equation - it's all about what is in the heart.

And yes, I can testify to the fact that external studies/extention programs have changed my life and will continue to shape my future, no matter where life's situations deposit me.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Danny,

Your last post was very interesting to me... I recieved my start in ministry in much the same way... I felt called by God and was persuaded by my preacher at the time to start taking courses through Summit (he did the same) and eventually the church started offering extention courses through summit, it was a great help!

One other question... how do you convince the people (especially the more "traditional") that the preacher is an equiper and not a shepherd (or in many cases "the babysitter" and the only one who can do anything)? BTW... I probably already know the answer... EQUIP THEM! This can take a LONG time and be frustrating.

Robin,

If you want to preach... I know a church near you that would most likely give you a chance.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Marc....

TEACH...TEACH....TEACH....TEACH....TEACH....AND TEACH SOME MORE!!

And you are right....it can take a long time and be very frustrating.

However.....you need to get over the emphasis put on ministry today for "instant results."

"Instant results".....are worthless.

I'd rather go for the long term influence....through teaching.

One other thing.....when going into a new ministry.....it's best to put things right up front as to what you will and will not do.

Preachers are going to have to move out of their comfort zone and start putting their proverbial head "on the block" if there is going to be any long term change in the attitudes of people.

My motto has always been...."I was looking for a job when I came here!!" :)

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Marc,

I'm not looking to preach (although the thought has crossed my mind recently... which scares me!)..... my interest is more in working with Youth. I have found that almost all of the people (including the leadership) in some congregations feel that they just cannot communicate with young people. The usual response when someone realizes I am teaching Youth is, "Wow!!! You would never get me in that room!!". I personally don't have this problem.... I enjoy being with them (most of the time).

Many of our kids do not have a good relationship with their parents, have only one parent, or have parents who are not Christians. They need to have the opportunity to develop relationships with older Christians within the body (and the older / more mature Christians are the ones that need to make this happen). In other words, I think there needs to be more than the hiring of someone to 'take the kids off our hands'... so to speak. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a Youth Minister... just that the job should entail much more than being the one to spend time with the kids.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Well put, Robin..........and God Bless your efforts!!!!

It's through efforts like yours that future preachers will come from. As long as our youth are only exposed to youth (or childish adults) they will never become the Christians they should be & they will surely never want to be a Preacher, Elder, or anything but a pew- warmer.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Robin,

If you are willing to relocate and want a part-time ministry (possibly full-time)... I may know of a youth position available.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001