According to recent surveys....James Dobson points out that the ratio of divorce in the church is now higher than in society.

I can remember bragging to couples....and in working with Jr/Sr High kids 20 years ago that a Christian marriage gave you a much better chance of success in marriage.

Not any more!!! What a shame!!

Would somebody like to venture some conjecture as to how we have arrived at this??

I've got my ideas....but as always....I like to save them.

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2001

Answers

Actually Danny..........I think the answer is pretty simple........... It's Liberalism at it's finest.

The average "church" of today is more concerned about teaching "love" than they are "truth". They are more about "compassion" and "compromise" than they are about "defending the faith which was ONCE delivered" and "elevating the bar" to God's holy standards.

In other words, the same slippery slope that has been bringing America to its moral knees for the past 40 years is now alive & well and appearing in a church of "your choice" near you. It's "Planet of the Apes" all over again.

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2001

My husband and I had a discussion with a preacher on this subject. He has preached at both COC & CC for almost 40 years. He was very discouraged with what he saw happening to couples over the years. It was his opinion the core of the problem was couples living beyond their means. Both parents working full time so that they could keep up with the Jones's so to speak. He said the focus shifted to providing the children with the latest designer sneakers, clothes, toys & sports gear. The adults were concerned with the latest electronic *toys*, what model car they drove, houses etc.

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2001

Cynthia.....interestingly....this is where James Dobson also lays a great share of the blame.

Couple questions.....

1) Has the cost of living rose??? Or is it our standard of living??

2) Could another problem be....."Marrying Sams?"

"Marrying Sams" being Preachers who feel they are only acting as "wards of the state"....and marry everybody and anybody regardless of the couples past track record.

Does it not cheapen the institution of marriage when preachers take this attitude?? When a preacher marries a divorced couple with no concern about their past......does it not cheapen the high view of marriage and the seriousness of the vows??

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2001

Danny

I suspect Mr. Dobson is using flawed data for his conclusion. I doubt very much that Mr. Dobson and I would agree on who makes up the church.He paints with to broad a brush.I think you can still safely say that a Christian marriage has a much greater chance of lasting. Although much of what Mr. Dobson says I do agree with, his theology leaves much to be desired.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Faris....

I will grant you the point on Dobson's theology. In fact, I've been disappointed in Dobson's whole approach to child rearing in the last few years. It seems his Pschology degree has overridden his biblical understanding of child rearing. Example?? I have heard him give some creedence to the ADD and ADHD propaganda concerning why children misbehave. But that's another thread. :)

However, if your logic is.....that the divorce numbers are significantly lower in our churches.....I think that would be a serious deductive error.

From my anecdotal observations of the last few years.....I believe the data would hold up in our churches.

As I told my church last Sunday night....I think it is time to quit worrying about the pagans "outside" the church....and start cleaning house inside the walls of our churches.....and take care of the pagans there.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

My experiences leave me to not doubt Dobson's numbers also. I would have to guesstimate that well over half of the church couples under the age of 40 that I've come across in the past 3 or 4 years has either experienced a divorce amongst themselves or have at least gone through a "major" separation.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Danny

I am guilty of often living in my own little world,(it's feels so secure)but almost never do I see or hear of,faith by their deeds Christians,divorcing. It seems lots of knowledgeable people disagree with me. Perhaps I need to get out more often and see what is really going on out there. I plan to spend the winter in Florida this year. That may be all of the enlightenment I need.

Cynthia

Would divorce and the preoccupation with material gain not be symptoms rather than a cause? Sometimes I have a problem distinguishing between what I want and what I need. I think Ecclesiastes was written with me in mind. It concludes with, the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments. I think that is the cure.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Faris....

If you are going to Florida...then there is no doubt that your eyes will be opened!!

You may want to shut them quickly after getting there.

Right Mark??

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Mark.... It's not just the under 40 crowd where I am. Many of the over 40's couples are on their second marriage. A few are on their 3rd.....

Faris.... Yes, the cure certainly is in the word of God. I agree 100% And when you move here this winter, I'll show you the *real* world :-}

Danny.... You have given me something to think about with regards to Preachers who marry everyone and anyone. I hadn't thought of that aspect of it. We had a Preacher apply for a job that was in a second marriage. He also approved of speaking in tongues.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

No doubt a lot of Christian preachers have gone soft. With heartache I share what recently happened with me. My Grandaughter wanted to get married to a really fine (by social standards) man. I informed her that I would love to marry her to a Christian man, and even then it would necessitate at least 4 marriage counselling sessions with me. Being in California, a local preacher back home said he would do the counseling. Which I thought was great, so I sent him the material I wanted him to cover along with a cover letter explaining that I would not marry this couple unless her man was a Christian, as I could not marry a regenerate to an unregenerate. Unfortunately the preacher opened the packet and after reading it passed it on to my grandaughter with my cover letter. She in turn gave it to her husband to be and walla. In the long run I would not do the wedding, and the preacher back in Ohio told my grandaughter, "No problem, I will do it. And he did. The rationale was that I will get him to be a Christian after they are married. To which my Grandaughter agreed. Everyone did understand tho what God had to say about the matter. Oh well, seems to be the attitude, and no back up when you stand for what God says. The counsel was some kind sociological goble te gook. It is time for those who claim to be Christian preachers to stand up and be counted even if you do lose a battle, the war is not over. Brother Jack

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Brother Jack....

God bless you brother!! You are a breath of fresh air in stagnant preachers.

Please tell me....where is the Scripture that says you can make them a Christian "after they are married??" (That's a rhetorical question!!)

The Scripture could not be more clear about the unequally yoked issue......and yet......way too many preachers dis it...and for what??

A $100 bucks in their pocket??

Thanks again Jack!! I am not exaggerating when I say your post was a nice ending to my day.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Danny............you are so right about Florida. It's become a melting pot of every perversion and doctrinal error ever conceived - lucky us!

Faris, depending on where you are going, prepare to see & hear some things you would probably rather not see or hear (especially in the church). Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some good churches here, but still, a lot of them have been adversely influenced by ideas not of God from all over the country.

Cynthia....you're right about divorce in the over-40 crowd, I've seen plenty of them too.......unfortunately most of them were either Elders or Deacons in their churches (but I guess that's another thread topic).

Danny.......a HUNDRED BUCKS to perform a wedding?????? I gotta get out of this rocket-launching business and go fulltime!............Ha!

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Mark.....you ought to hear what I charge non-Christians when I perform their weddings!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Brother Jack:

I thank God for you and greatly appreciate your post. I regret that this preacher who promised to help “counsel” your grand daughter not only betrayed you and the confidence that you place in him, and he betrayed your grand daughter and placed her soul in potential jeopardy of being “unequally yoked with an unbeliever”. But what is even worse he betrayed our Lord Jesus Christ as well! I will pray for your grand daughter. That by hearing the blessed gospel of Christ and obedience to it her husband will turn from his past sins. That he too might enjoy the blessing of eternal salvation in Christ our Lord and that he will be a true “joint heir of the grace of life” with your grand daughter. So that your great grand children can have the good fortune of being members of the kind of good Christian family of which yours is a prime and beautiful example.

During the time I have spent in this forum I have come to greatly respect you, your love for Christ, the truth and your work as a preacher of the gospel of Christ. I have also come to greatly respect your son who is also a gospel preacher. For that reason I believe that you will continue to do all within your power to reach your grand daughter’s husband with the gospel. It should not be too difficult inasmuch as you have pointed out the fact that he is a “really fine man (by social standards)”. So, please accept my exhortation that you not lose heart and go forth and teach this “good man” the gospel that he might be saved and become the head of a faithful Christian family as you have done.

It is sad indeed to see that the “unfaithful” among us are having such awful and potentially destructive influence in the precious body of Christ. These false teachers who will perform weddings and countenance in the name of Christ our Lord any union whatsoever whether the union is a physically adulterous one, between couples, or a spiritually adulterous one with sectarians who are not even Christians. These false teachers, as you know are not new curses to church of our Lord but they have always been around from even New Testament times. And in each generation it is the duty of the faithful to deal sharply with them. (1 Tim. 5:20-21; Romans 16:17). It is past time for us to begin to do our duty in this regard to mark these men and have no company with them that they might be ashamed! The apostle Peter in the following aptly describes these false teachers. I do not call them “liberals” which is a word that consoles, comforts and encourages them. I call them what God’s word calls them. They are “filthy pigs and vomit licking dogs and the very best description is that they are unfaithful. They are not merely “liberal” as opposed to “conservative”. They are false teachers and authors or promulgators of lies in the name of Christ! And they will pay if they do not repent of this evil thing. Hear how Peter speaks of these men:

“But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 12-22).

Let us turn away from these “vomit licking dogs” and let us drive out these filthy pigs who are so willingly and playfully “wallowing in the mire” after having been washed with the precious blood of Christ. These liars who have done “despite unto the spirit of grace” and trodden under foot the Son of God and brought him to an open shame”. (Heb. 10;26-27; Heb. 6:3-6)! For they have turned away from the “commandment delivered to them”. And they bring disgrace and shame upon the “faith once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). These men are “wells without water” and are therefore useless to the sustaining of spiritual life and are promoters of spiritual death. They are “clouds without water” that promise “rain” and deliver nothing but a false hope! They are dangerous and must be disciplined by the faithful rather than tolerated by all!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Danny

How about a follow up thread on marriage and 2nd marriages.I've heard most of the questions but would like to hear some educated,biblical answers. Can that man who was divorced and married to another before he became a christian preach or be an elder? Can divorced persons ever re-marry? If a young man and his pregnant girlfriend ask can the preacher marry them? Can the preacher ever marry a divorced person to another?

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001