I am wondering if a person is a born again christian and they are gay, will they enter heaven? I am confused on this subject and would appreciate if someone could help me out with this subject.

confused in PA mark bigam

-- Anonymous, July 26, 2001

Answers

Homosexuality is one of the "big ones" when it comes to sin ... at least in the eyes of MOST church goers today.

And while homosexuality is listed as one sin that will keep people out of heaven, we also understand from God's Word that ANY unforgiven sin will keep a person out of heaven.

I have been asked before "Would a practicing homosexual be admitted into heaven if they were a Christian?" My response is to ask, "Would a practicing gossip be admitted into heaven if they were a Christian?" (of course, most gossips I know in the church are no longer practicing ... they have gossip down to a fine art!)

Point being ... why would someone want to willfully continue in ANY sinful living once they are a Christian? Homesexuality, heterosexual promiscuity, adultry, gossip, stealing, whatever. The idea after putting on Christ is to strive to be Christ-like in all you do ... including your sexuality.

Does God forgive homosexuality? Of course He does! Just as he forgives my daily sins. Strive daily to live a Christ-like life, putting away ALL sins, including homosexuality.

Feel free to email directly if you would like to continue this discussion in a more private manner.

Darrell Combs Campus Minister, Indiana University of Pennsylvania darrell@csfpa.com

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2001

mark,

This is one topic that can become quite inflammatory, so in order to answer it, I'd like to generalize it some and let the answer form itself.

First) There are numerous sins (actions that are objectionable to God) mentioned in both the Old & New Testaments. To mention a few: homosexuality, adultry, promiscuity, murder, theft, lying, etc. However, there is never any rating system put on these sins, I.E. all sins are equally objectionable to God. So in God's eyes, homosexuality is no better & no worse than theft, murder, adultry, or telling a "little white lie". All of these deserve & earn the same penalty.

Second) The Bible says that those who act & remain in the above mentioned sins shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. But it also says that if you confess your sins before God, He is faithful & just to forgive. Peter told those in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost that Repentance and Baptism was also a part of receiving forgiveness of sin. So if you put these thoughts together, we find that if one wants to enter into salvation, he needs to confess & repent of his sins - whatever they happen to be (Baptism is worthless if these two items are not attended to).

SO.....will a gay Christian enter heaven? It depends on him (her). Have they accepted their homosexual behavior as being sinful? Have they confessed it before God? Have they repented of it & do they strive to stay away from such activity?

Would you expect God to open the gates of Heaven to an unconfessed, unrepentant, unchanging axe-murder, regardless of his Baptismal status? Probably not - though it is, as always, His call to make.

So do you expect God to open the gates of heaven to a homosexual (a sin equal to murder in God's eyes) who relishes his sexual acivity, seeks to repeat it, and is unwilling to consider changing his lifestyle to match what God calls us to? Again, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that.

Now, if the homosexual accepts the Word of God, confesses & repents of his ways and strives to live in the way prescribed in Scripture and is Baptized - then he(she) has Every Right to expect to enter the Gates, even if they have occassionally slipped back into a homosexual experience (as we all have our own little issues that we slip on from time to time). But as long as they know it was wrong and confess/repent of the indiscretion, God knows the hearts & minds and will make a Just decision in the matter.

So to put your answer in a nutshell - No, the unrepentant, actively- practicing homosexual should not expect to be seeing "saint Peter". However, the repentant homosexual who is earnestly striving to change to a Godly lifestyle and has followed the plan of Salvation (faith, confession, repentance, & Baptism) can expect to be "heaven-bound".

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2001

Dittos to Mark Wisniewski!!

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2001

Mr. Bigam:

You have asked us a question to which we respond without any of the ordinary “caution” that our society would like for us to exercise in order to make sure that homosexuality be treated “gently” and that we maintain a measure of “political correctness” concerning it. Let me say that we should answer all questions from God’s eternal word and not have even the slightest concern whatsoever about “political correctness”. For anyone, knowledgeable in the English language knows that the word “correct” is not a word that needs to be modified in any way because there is no such thing as “degrees of correctness”. Thus the phrase “politically correct” implies that one can be correct politically and wrong in every other way. But the truth is always correct, period. It is correct in every aspect of the word “correct”. It is not correct in one arena and incorrect in another. Right is right in all circumstances and the changes in “times” and societal “mores” do not change the facts and the truth in the least.

For I remember a time when no one was ever “confused” about this question. It is only in our modern times that men are “confused” about such basic and fundamental matters. But you have asked:

“I am wondering if a person is a born again christian and they are gay, will they enter heaven?”

Now, the first thing that we must make clear from the word of God is that there is no such thing as a “Christian” that has not been “born again”. If one has not been “born again of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). And one cannot be “born again without hearing the gospel (Romans 10:10) believing it (John 3:16) repenting of past sins (Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30) and being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Thus, in order for a person, who is a homosexual, to be “born again” and thus become a “Christian” he must repent of his sins. Which includes the sin of homosexuality among all of the other violations of God’s law for “sin is the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4). Therefore there is no such thing as a “homosexual Christian”. He may be a Christian who once was a “homosexual” but he cannot be a Christian and practice homosexuality or any other sin against God. For Paul told the Roman Christians, who lived in a society wherein homosexuality was as prevalent and as accepted as it is today. He said to them, “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked; that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” (Romans 6:16-18). Thus when one becomes a Christian they cease to “serve sin” and begin and continue to serve righteousness. And that means that one who is a homosexual, who is a slave to that evil lifestyle and serves it must cease to serve that sin and serve righteousness in order for him or her to be a Christian. When one is “in Christ Jesus” he is a “new Creature” and he has a “new life” wherein ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW. Everything has changed including his sinful homosexual lifestyle, if he was a homosexual who became a Christian. Read this verse, “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” (2 Cor. 5:14-17). Thus when one becomes a Christian they no longer “live unto themselves” to satisfy the their own desires and lust but present themselves a “living sacrifice wholly acceptable to God which is their reasonable service” (Romans 12:1,2). One who desires to be a Christian must “count the cost. “If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26, 27) And again Christ said, “So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:33). When we become Christians we die to sin and are buried with Christ in baptism and we rise to walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE. (Romans 6:3- 6). And our old passions die with us and a New passion to “do the will of God” (Matt. 7:21) lives within us. We no longer serve sin. And Homosexuality is a sin and no person can become a Christian until they repent of it nor can they remain as faithful Christians if they return to the practice of that sin and never repent of it.

Now, this constrained effort on the part of the homosexual community to desire to be accepted as Christians without repenting of that sin may influence men, and influential preachers who desire to maintain a large group of people who respect them, but it has no impact upon God whatsoever! Let us read what God has to say about the sin of homosexuality. “

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” (Romans 1:18-32).

Now from the above verse many things can be learned and we will not go into all of them. Rather we will touch upon matters related to your question. This passage clearly indicates that God gave these persons up to “vile passions”. And he lists many of the “vile passions” that these, who were abandoned by God, practiced. And prominent among this list of “vile passions” is the practice of homosexuality by both men and women. And it shows that these persons were allowed to suffer in their very physical bodies the natural consequences of such behavior but those consequences are called “recompense” or the payment due for their deeds. This is an apparent reference to the diseases that such behavior can cause. And the last verse not only condemns, as WORTHY OF DEATH, those who DO SUCH THINGS but also those who “HAVE PLEASURE N THEM THAT DO”! Anyone who can read this passage and still believe that a practicing homosexual can go to heaven and receive eternal life when he or she has refused to repent of such behavior is just unable to read or unable to comprehend what is read. Or they are quiet simply unwilling to accept the will of God in the matter.

Now, I am aware that there is a long list of “vile passions” in this passage and what God says concerning those who practice one of them applies equally to those who practice ANY OF THEM. But your question was specifically concerning the most prominent one, or the behavior that God took the time to explain in more detail, in the entire list. Therefore we are focusing upon that particular one in the list. But make no mistake, they God’s words here apply to every behavior in the list with no exceptions made for ANY of them.

SO, it should be evident that no one can become a Christian until they repent of and give up all of these “vile passions”. And they cannot remain as faithful Christians if they return, as a “dog returns to his own vomit” to the practice of any of them and expect to receive eternal life. For Peter warned of this, “But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:22). For those who practice these sins are, according to this verse in Romans 1:18-32, worthy of death. One who would avoid the consequence of death that they bring must turn away from such evil practices and turn toward the practice of righteousness in service to God through Christ our lord. Read these Verses, Mr. Bigam, I am convinced that they are quite clear and easy to understand.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (2 Cor. 6:9,10).

Now twice in the above verse the Holy Spirit speaking through the apostle Paul tells us to not be deceived that those who practice these things “SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD”! So, my friend, do not let anyone in our evil society deceive you about this matter. And notice the list of the things that will keep anyone from inheriting the kingdom of God includes the “effeminate” (Homosexual men) and the “abusers of themselves with mankind” (which is another reference that includes homosexuals among others). Now also among this list is “adulterers”. And I wonder just how it is that some have no confusion about the simple fact that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God but they are “confused” about homosexuals who are listed among them in the same list of persons who will not inherit the kingdom of God? And also among this list is “fornicators” and no one can practice homosexuality without practicing FORNICATION. But you did not seem to have any confusion about whether “born again fornicators” would go to heaven. Are you confused about the others in this list or have leftist AMERICAN politicians convinced you that even God HAS changed the truth of His word to satisfy their concepts of “political correctness”? Do you thing that God will EXEMPT the homosexuals, whose lifestyle is as much a life of fornication as any other group of fornicators? In fact, there is no way in which homosexuality can ever be anything short of a life of fornication. But God has arranged that male and female can marry and encourages them to love one another and to sexually satisfy one another’s physical desires and to procreate the human race. And if they do so their natural sexual behavior is not fornication. But he does not allow for homosexuals to avoid a life of fornication by marrying, does he? Now it should be quite clear that homosexuality is always fornication. But I did not sense any confusion from you over whether “born again fornicators” could go to heaven. You are only confused about the so-called “born again homosexual fornicators”! God is not going to change his word nor be persuaded buy current trends in social and political thinking in America or anywhere else in this world to ACCEPT ANY SINFUL BEHAVIOR. And there will be no exception for the homosexuals or anyone else in this list!

Now, if you had asked if a homosexual could become a Christian and obtain mercy and forgiveness of such behavior my response would have been quite different. But your question seeks for God to make some exception for homosexual fornicators over heterosexual fornicators which just will never happen. But in this same context of the verses, which we have quoted from the above passage in 2 Corinthians, we see that all from this class of people, fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, and effeminate, and abusers of themselves with mankind can become Christians. For Paul says to the Corinthians “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (2 Cor. 6:11). Now notice the PAST tense in this verse. Paul said “And such WERE some of you”. Some of the Corinthians, prior to their becoming Christians WERE adulterers, fornicators, and without question some of them were effeminate and abusers of themselves with mankind and hence they were homosexuals. But after they were WASHED. After they were SANCTIFIED, which means to “set apart” thus it was after they were “set apart” from these things” they were “justified”. But they were not justified while connected with them or while they yet practiced them. They had to REPENT of those things in order to become Christians. Therefore there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. There can only be Christians who WERE (PAST TENSE) homosexuals.

So, if you are interested in following Christ then you must forsake the world and the things that are in the world (1 John 2:15) for if any man love the world and the things in the world the love of the father IS NOT IN HIM. And if you are presently a homosexual, and I do not accuse you in this only recognizing the remote possibility of such, God stands ready with his infinite mercy to forgive you of your sins. For Christ died for all men, including all homosexual men and women. And if they turn from that sin and repent of it and obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess. 1:8,9; Heb. 5:8,9) by repenting and being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). They will be “washed” and “sanctified” or “set apart” from such evil and “justified” and thus made meet for the master’s use to serve the living God. But if they think that they can come to Christ while practicing such things with no intent whatsoever to turn from them they will never be forgiven of those “vile passions”, NEVER. Now that is the truth on the matter and anything other than this is just plainly a deception of Satan. It is that simple and there is no good reason for one who has read the word of God to be confused about it in the least.

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

E. Lee Saffold

I

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2001

Matt:

You have said:

“I have a few questions I hope you don't mind answering.”

Matt, we do not mind answering questions if you do not mind responding to them. But we are not going to just write volumes for people in answer to their questions if they are going to merely ignore the answer. So, if you are willing to respond to our answers and any questions that we might also ask you to consider then we will be happy to take up your questions.

Then you ask:

“If a Christian intentionally sins because he or she can't overcome the temptation, then repents and asks the Lord for forgiveness is that person hell bound?”

The issue here is whether they genuinely repent. For if they do repent they will resolve to never commit that sin again. Which means that they are cognizant at the time of their repentance that they will face this temptation again. And if they intend to commit it again then they cannot truly repent of it, now can they? And if they do not repent of it they are in fact “Hell bound” for the wages of sin is death” (Ezek. 18:20; Rom. 6:23). But, Matt seems here to wish to leave the impression that they can actually repent while they still have the intent to commit this sin every time they cannot “overcome the temptation to sin”. And there is implied here the notion that inability to overcome sin is a mitigating factor with God. And that he will simply overlook it, not for Christ sake, but because it was such a strong temptation that it could not be overcome. And that it is perfectly all right to intentionally sin when we are sorely tempted to do so long as we say we are “sorry” afterwards! Now this is a pure deception of Satan. And he is the one who wants us to believe such nonsense! James has taught us the truth about this matter of temptations and how they come. “Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16).

And Paul also told us, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].” (1 Cor. 10:13).

Now from this we learn that we have no excuse for yielding to any temptation! For God WILL NOT SUFFER YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE! But Matt implies that it is possible to be tempted beyond your ability to overcome. I believe what the Holy Spirit says about the matter, don’t you? And God provides a way of escape when we are tempted and it is our responsibility to take that way of escape from it, for God provides such with the intention that we should take that way and escape from temptation. Our lord was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin. Let us walk in his steps! Think about this question of “intentional sin” for a moment and the attitude of heart that one has who does such a thing. A person like this who knows it is against God’s will but deliberately with the fullest intent to disobey God is in a dangerous position. This person has not “died to sin” and he is not alive unto Christ”. Such a person could be hell bound because he does not understand the meaning of the word repentance. This very attitude is the reason that many Churches are filled with persons who do their own will always and never sacrifice their will to the will of God. They think that they can sin that grace may abound. And they do not “resist unto blood in striving against sin”. There is a passage in the book of Hebrew that such a person might read with much profit.

“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-32). And Paul further states, “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” (Heb. 10:36).

Now, from the above passage, we can see the consequence of “willful sin” can’t we? And though it is true that God’s grace is sufficient for us and that if we confess our sins God will forgive us of our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9) it is not true that we can just go about willfully sinning against God and expect to be forgiven. For it is entirely possible for one to reach a point where it is “impossible to renew such a one to repentance”. For Paul warns us yet again:

“For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.” (Heb. 6:4-8).

So, this ridiculous notion held by way too many Christians today. This notion that because of the grace of God they can just willfully sin against him as if Christ died to make it possible for us to live our lives as we see fit and enjoy the pleasures of sin without any consequence is a lie that must be stopped. For they believe that because all we have to do is “repent” and ask God to forgive them and all is well is very plainly wrong. ” For they do not mean by their use of the word “repent” that one genuinely turns away from sin. Instead they mean that one need only feel guilty and say they are sorry. They do not mean a strong determination or resolution to never commit the act again so that their lives will reform by a complete turning from it. And we had better be making efforts to correct this false notion of “easy grace” that turns Christianity into nothing more than “sinners saved IN their sins instead of sinners saved FROM their sins. Brethren and Friends, there is a very wide difference between the two concepts. No one will be saved while her or she is still practicing sin. For Christ dies to obtain forgiveness for us but he did not die to make it all right for us to live a life of sin against God without any consequences. For Paul even asked, “shall we sin that grace may abound, God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?”(Romans 6:2). And he made it abundantly clear that when one becomes a Christian he ceases to serve sin and becomes a servant of righteousness. “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked; that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” (Romans 6:16-18). WE are not to deliberately serve sin. Christianity is not a system designed to help slothful, selfish, spoiled American brats to sin willfully and trod under foot the Son of God and put Him to an open shame so that they can have a comfortable easy Christian life without sacrifices and self denial. And it is time that we informed them all that they would not be saved if they sin willfully after they have come to the knowledge of the truth.

Then he ask a question concerning sexual behavior which should not be discussed in an open forum but we will try to give a brief answer without going into the details of such behavior for our readers.

He asked:

“Is masturbation a sin when the person concerned is without a spouse as a lot of young men and women are? Sexual urges can be extremely strong, especially in the young.”

He implies here that such might be a sin when one is not “without a spouse”. Which means he does see something sinful about it under some circumstances such as when one does have a spouse doesn’t it?

Now all one need do is think about how “masturbation” fits into the matter of the “lust of the flesh” and it’s connection with “fornication” committed in the heart to answer this question. Any sexual behavior, including masturbation, can be fornication and it is hard for me to reason so as to see just how it could not be fornication. And we know that fornication is a sin, don’t we? For such sins do involve the heart don’t they? “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matt. 5:32).

And we do not know of many who would “pluck their eye out to save their souls, now do we? And when Jesus was speaking about marriage and divorce his disciples thought that his sayings concerning it were HARD and that it would be better if a man did not enter into marriage and his words to them speaks to the situation of those who are unmarried as follows:

“His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with [his] wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].”(Matt. 19:10-12).

And Paul by inspiration spoke to the unmarried as follows:

“I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.” (1 Cor. 7:7,8).

WE can see that a wife is a great blessing from the Lord and she might very well save our souls! Let us love our wives and thank God for them! And those of you who are without wives or husbands understand that you are indeed expected to “contain” yourselves and if you cannot do so you should marry. But you have no option from God to just sin and excuse yourself on the ground that the temptation was so strong that you could not overcome it!

Now the unmarried has two choices. Contain themselves as Paul did or marry. And our friend Matt is implying that it is impossible for one to contain themselves. Well, they are expected to do so until they marry. If that is becoming too difficult then find a wife or a husband as the case may be. But the option of yielding to sin with not consequence for having done so is not available to anyone Christians or not!

But discussing such matters as this in detail in a public forum is not something that I care to do. So, if you really want a detailed explanation of the answer to this question then take it off line to a private e-mail and I will discuss it. But think about this suggestion by Matt that sexual urges are “extremely strong especially among the young” as if this in some way excuses sinful practices on the ground that our natural urges are so strong. Let me ask you, is the natural urge to stay alive very strong? So, if someone asked you to deny Christ or they would kill you, would you simply excuse yourself on the grounds that the urge among the living to stay alive is extremely strong? Christ has not called us to a “convenient Christianity that does not cost us anything! Hear him, “. “If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26, 27) We are expected to deny ourselves for Christ sake. He gave his life for us. What have we given to him? It seems that there is no desire to even discipline ourselves and control our “strong urges” to pursue the “lust of the flesh” for him? What a shame that one would even ask such questions seeking to find a way to satisfy our own strong urges when Christ sacrificed his life for us!

Then Matt asked us:

“Can a person who is 'born again' in the spirit be unborn?”

Brethren, only a Calvinist would ask such a question.

A person who has been born can die, can’t they? And from this question it is apparent to me that you know nothing about how one becomes a Christian. For one is born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5) and it is by their own choice that they are born again and it is also by their own choice that they die if they choose to sin willfully after they have received the knowledge of the truth and have done dispite unto the spirit of Grace. (Heb. 10:26-32; 36; Heb. 6:3-6)

“Does the unrepentant sinner lose their salvation?”

We have answered this question numerous times in this forum and in our quotation from the scriptures above. But you must understand that there is NO SALVATION for ANY unrepentant sinner. For we are told, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30,31). One cannot become a Christian without repenting of their sins. Acts 3:19; 2:38). So, since one cannot LOSE that which they do not possess it is impossible for any unrepentant sinner to even HAVE salvation much less lose it! But you appear to be speaking of those who have become Christians by initially repenting of their sins (Acts 3:19) and being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and then turned into a life of sin and remain impenitent of them. The above passages from Hebrews apply to them and yes it is a fact that they will lose their salvation and thus their souls if they do not repent.

Paul warned, “But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Cor. 9:27). And Paul warned the Galatians, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Gal. 5:4). Now if these Christians to whom Paul wrote did not repent of their attempts to be justified by the Law they had FALLEN FROM GRACE and Christ had become OF NO EFFECT unto them!

Then you asked:

“ Or does the unrepentant sinner suffer loss in the Kingdom of Heaven and not lose the salvation of their spirit (as opposed to the salvation of the soul)?”

Now this question shows a complete ignorance of the word of God. For there is not a single place in the entire New Testament that teaches such pathetic nonsense. Those who do not repent of their sins are going to lose their SOULS. For repentance and forgiveness go together. Those who refuse to repent God refuses to forgive. “Repent ye therefore that your sins may be blotted out…” (Acts 3:19). “For the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23) “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezek. 18:4) And again, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” (Ezek. 18:20).

Now, the above passages are not only something for our Calvinist friends here to consider. It is something that we all had best remember!

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2001

Matt who?

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2001

Matt whom I have not been able to identify yet because he will not respond to my e-mails therefore I have deleted his post. That Matt.

I'm serious about this....i.e., keeping this board on track.

If he wants personal counseling....he can do it via e-mail.

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2001

May I say first off that "born again Christian" is redundant. A Christian is born again or he is not a Christian. It's like saying "a causasian white man".

Anyway, over the last 2 years in Fort Lauderdale, I have dealt my share of homosexuals and transvestites. Lot's of them here. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. There are former homosexuals that are Christians, lot's of 'em.

Homosexuality is not an unforgiveable sin. It is one of the few things in the Bible that is called an abomination, but so is idolatry, being effeminite (sp?), certain offerings, etc. To most of us who are not homosexual it is rather repugnant and we often find it easier to condemn and ignore, at least that's my experience with most Christians, not necessarily those on this forum.

Will they enter heaven? They will if they, like all others in sin, repent and obey God. The homosexual can overcome his temptations, just as an alcoholic can overcome his (there are a lot of similarities between the two).

There is some good material put out by Nehemiah Ministries in Illinois. I do not have the address available at the moment and I am getting ready to leave tomorrow for Hillsboro Familiy Camp and will not be back until late Aug.6.

BTW, God does not make a person a homosexual. That is a choice they make.

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2001

Scott --

"There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. There are former homosexuals that are Christians, lot's of 'em. "

Could we also say that "there are no gossiping Crhistians ... or lying Christians ... or hetrosexually actiive outside-of-marriage Christians?"

I take it you are saying that if a homosexual has done all he/she can to abandon that lifestyle in their Christianity, then they might be heavenbound?

Just trying to get a focus on what's going on.

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2001

Darrell,

That's it. If a person continues to willfully sin, they will lose their salvation Heb. 10:26.

A gossip, is to be warned once, if not repentance, twice with witnesses, third before the congregation, and if still has not repented, is put out of the CHurch, i.e., lost his/her salvation. Once repentance occurs, he/she is to be welcomed back with open arms.

If the Church handled her discipline problems correctly, we wouldn't see the sin being so prevelent as we do. This would also apply to the other thread that Danny started.

I gotta go. The Holy land is calling (Ohio). Talk to you in about 8 days.

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2001

Oh, before I go, I chose gossip just to make a point. Any sin, continually done and unrepented, leads to death.

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2001

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us"

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Duane....

Do I understand your use of that Scripture to mean....that one can willfully go on sinning with the understanding that as long as they confess it to God....it will be forgiven??

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

No.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Good.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Scott, and all --

I'm sure we agree. I'm not talking about an unrepentant, continuing sinner. What about the person who has chosen the homosexual lifestyle ... has then rejected it in Christ ... become a Christian ... and at one time or another "slips" or whatever term you want to use. We all sin (and we all do so willfully, though hopefully not in an unrepentant manner).

As I study the Word, I see that God does forgive the repentant sinner. You are certainly correct that we can't go on sinning in any manner and expect God to forgive us, if we aren't repentant.

There is hope for ALL Christians ... even when we sin ... if we are repentant and ask God's forgiveness. If that is not true, there is certainly no hope for me!

Hope ya had fun in Ohio. And remember ... it's just one state north of the true holy land ... KENTUCKY!

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Darrell......

In light of what you just said.....how do you deal with these passages.....

1 Cor. 5:11 "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolator or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."

I Cor. 6:9-11 "Do you not know that the wicked WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God?? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL OFFENDERS nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some you WERE." (Notice the past tense.)

While many people may struggle with lesser sins.....it seems to me these are very clear. YOU JUST STOP DOING THAT!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2001

Danny --

I certainly agree that we must stop doing thesze things. My question is, what of the person who HAS stopped, is leading a Christlike life, but at some point falls back and induldges in one of those sins. Does that automatically negate their salvation?

For instance, the drunk. On the wagon for years, and then something happens one night, he or she takes a drink, and then goes off the wagon. They are truly repentant of what they have done. I certainly don't believe they are doomed to hell at that point.

Now, if they continue in the sin of drunkeness (or any other sin) then they show themselves to be devoid of any repentance. That, of course, is a different story.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 2001

Darrell.....

I agree.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 2001

I was watching that new Martin Short show, "Jiminy Glick", today ... and about fell off my chair laughing at something he said. He said:

"Personally, I have nothing against a homosexual ... and I'd like to keep it that way."

ROTFL ;-)))))

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

Any thoughts on this situation? We have a person who attends our services who underwent a sex change over 20 years ago (male to female) and has been on hormone therapy to the point where this person appears totally female in voice and mannerism (except that the broad shoulders are a dead giveaway). She is not yet a Christian, and I'm wanting some input on how you would handle the situation if this person accepts Christ. What do you say to this person? Repent and undergo reconstructive surgery? Live as a celibate woman/eunich? The Polynesian culture in which I live and work is very tolerant of homosexuality and cross-dressing (the person I'm referring to is Polynesian), and it is difficult to convince even long time Christians to condemn these practices among their family members. Let me know what you think! Patrick

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

From my perspective....part of "repententance"....would involve being happy with the way the Creator made you...i.e., male.

Patrick....you say you have a problem in the culture. If you make this an "easy believism" type of conversion.....you will have an even tougher row to hoe trying to execute any changes towards holiness in the future.

As Paul said in Corinthians....."and such WERE some of you"...(i.e., homosexuals, effiminate....etc...etc...).

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

My thought, for what it's worth, would be if he is genetically a man, he should return to living as a man. As the verse above says, "some of you WERE effeminate ..."

Now I understand there is a condition where a person is born with one set of sexual organs but genetically, their chromosomes are for the other sex (and these people are found to be with atrophied organs of the other sex as well). I was watching a show on TLC where a woman, who lived her whole life as a woman (though quite a bit bigger and broader than most women), tested herself genetically when she was in med school as a part of her class assignment and discovered to her shock that she had a Y chromosome, and later tests confirmed the vestigial male organs in her. This type of rare case would be a rough call for me to make ...

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Patrick,

He is a male. If he stopped taking the hormones, his body would revert to his maleness, would it not? As harsh as it sounds, the loss of his sexual amenities is a consequence of his choice of sin, just as liver damage may be to the alcoholic.

The fact that he has been surgically altered does not change who he is. A castrated eunuch did not become a female because of "his loss". There is more to our gender than the plumbing.

Whether or not transexualism or homosexuality is a part of the culture does not make it any less of an abomination to God. I do not say these words with a mean spirit, but that is what God calls it.

Deut. 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

The I Cor 6 passage is a good one for it shows that this is not a debate new to our times. Because it is so culturally entrenched, as it is also here in Fort Lauderdale, makes it more difficult to handle, but it does not make it any less sinful. This person can find forgiveness in Christ, but I'm afraid the consequences of his choices are here to stay until he meets the Lord face to face.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Danny, What do you mean by 'easy believism'? I'm not sure where you're going with that statment. All I am saying is that I have a challenge in this area in the Polynesian culture--some of the people, especially Tahitians, encourage their kids to cross dress if they appear effeminate from birth or if they don't have a daughter. It is a problem here that I didn't enounter while ministering in Omaha, NE, that's for sure. I don't know if this person will ever become a Christian or not, but I am praying for this and really need some help in guiding him/her (?) into what Christ wants for them. This person is has the DNA of a man, but anatomically is now a woman. Patrick

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Scott, Thanks for your answer--it helps put things in perspective for me. Patrick

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

By "easy believism"....I mean....sliding him into church membership (like so many do) without any call for real change....i.e., repentance.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001