Well....what do you folks think of President Bush's faith based initiative?? What are your "gut" feelings telling you?? Good thing?? Bad thing?? Dangers??

Yeah....I'll share my comments eventually. However, I would like to know if you have given it any thought yet.

-- Anonymous, July 23, 2001

Answers

Brother Danny:

You have asked:

“Well....what do you folks think of President Bush's faith based initiative?? What are your "gut" feelings telling you?? Good thing?? Bad thing?? Dangers??”

As you know, Brother, I supported President Bush in the last election and I support him now. But, I do not support his so-called “faith based initiative” because it seems to me that it would be an “unholy alliance” of a conglomeration of vipers seeking to amalgamate what the world considers “Christianity” into a large, government run institution, designed for the soul purpose of initiating “social change”. It will be an organization and a department of the government filled with “faiths” that no one in the world considers being in harmony with what they consider “Christian principles”.

While I have no doubts whatsoever of the president’s sincerity in the least, it is just another alliance that true Christians should avoid at all cost. For what fellowship hath darkness with light? And we do not need for the body of Christ to be diverted from its serving God’s purpose instead of man’s “social needs”! The church is the “pillar and Ground of the truth” (2 Tim. 3:15) And it is the House of God (1 Peter 4:16-18) and it is the “kingdom of God” (Hebrews 12:28) and it is to serve the purpose of God and not the human “state”! And God’s eternal purpose is accomplished through the church and His manifold wisdom is to be made known through her (Eph. 3:10-12). And all of the sectarians that will gather around the “throne of earthly power” to serve their God, SATAN, will use this to in some way turn people away from the “faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) or in some way divert them from ever learning it. For the “faith” upon which this “initiative is based” is not the “faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) but is rather a conglomeration of groups opposed to that very faith once delivered to the saints. And what the President does with that Group of people, most of who are not Christians, even though many of them claim to be is his business but we, who serve Christ should have no “part nor lot” in it! And several of these “faith based groups” are of various “faiths” that make no pretense whatsoever of being Christian and are in fact diametrically opposed to Christianity such as the Muslims, and Hindus, and Shitoist, Buddhist, and Jewish. Not to mention all of the sectarians that pretend to represent Christ though they are opposed to him in all that he teaches and they are anathema for teaching a gospel contrary to the true gospel of Christ. It is a group that the President might be able to use in some way but it is not one that those who have faith in Christ and follow the gospel of Christ can have anything to do with. It is more of a political maneuver that will never produce something genuinely good for genuine Christianity! And it will give more power to groups opposed to Christianity than they presently possess. For this is a so called “faith based initiative” it is not a genuine “Christian initiative” based upon the true “faith once for all delivered to the saints”. We have been given our marching orders from our King, the Lord Jesus Christ. Let us not be diverted by the lowly president of the United States to join such an unholy alliance with members of every false faith that ever graced the face of this earth!

Then you have said:

“Yeah....I'll share my comments eventually. However, I would like to know if you have given it any thought yet.”

I know that you will do just that and I hope that you will and I look forward to reading them.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, July 23, 2001

Lee.....

While your concern is more of a theological concern (which is valid)....mine is more of a moral concern.

I still say.....if you are going to dance with the devil (i.e., the govt.).....you will eventually have to pay (i.e., follow their laws of inclucivism).

The bill barely made it through the House.....but it doesn't have a chance in its current form in the Sentate.

The reason?? The liberally led Senate, headed up by as Rush calls him....."Puffy Daschel"......wants to make sure that churches will follow govt. regulations, not just in the distribution of the money, but in it's hiring practices.

What that means in practical terms is....if your church runs a Christian School that provides meals for poorer children let's say....and you are given money from this faith based initiative....according to govt. standards you would be obligated to hire a quota of minorities and even homosexuals. If a homosexual applied for employment and you turned them down.....you could be sued by the federal govt.

They attempted to attach that measure to the bill in the house but failed.

Personally.....unless a measure could be attached to exempt religious organizations from federal hiring laws....then I'm not interested in the money.

However, if churches and religious organizations would continue to be allowed to distribute the money and have hiring practices according to their religious convictions.....then I'm for it.

It is not unprecedented. Individuals, such as myself, have recevied Federal Pell Grants for years....and attended Bible college with the money. Other forms of govt. help include tax exempt status and charitable donation tax write-offs. So the idea of the govt. helping religious institutions out financially is not something new.

So....if the bill could survive in its current House form....there would be no problem. But any compromise with the Senate will result in a bill that does little to help churches....especially biblically based ones.

Personally, I'm all for getting money out of Washington in any way possible....because most religious organizations (regardless of who they are), in general, will do a better job than that group of scoundrels that have the money now.

-- Anonymous, July 24, 2001

Well,...............

I think I understand Bush's reasonings for the plan and I do not hold to the "separation of Church & State" as practiced these days (as the Constitution never even hints at such a thing), but I do see some inherant problems in such a plan that need to be watched and avoided.

1) I agree that it is the church's duty before God to reach out to its surrounding community in benevolence to tend to that community's physical, and more importantly, spiritual needs. Such benevolence should be an outpouring of the congregation's love for God & their fellow man. But under a Gov't plan, there is a tendency to become dependant on that "extra" money, so that congregational funds are rerouted away from benelence - depending on the Gov't money only to fully fund Benelovence. If a church was to make itself dependant solely on Gov't money to help people, they have lost the meaning of Jesus' Words and end up being a very sick church.

2) Anytime you take Gov't money for ANYTHING these days, there will be problems. They like to dictate what is to be done with the funds (notice how they like to keeps States' programs "in check" by treatening to withhold Federal Funds if they stray from the Federal's agenda). This is a bad thing as they have a different reason for this Program. A church's benelovence program is supposed to show the love of Christ to those around it, hopefully bringing some of the lost to Him. The Gov't program is designed to: a) save it some money, b) tend to physical needs only, and c) procure votes for the next election.

3) Because the Gov't will want to pull some "strings" concerning the money - there is a serious possibility of violating the Constitution's real intent. The wording of the Constitution was solely to prevent a State-Sponsered Religion from being mandated on the people. If the State begins to control benevolence, how long will it be before it tries to mandate other activities as well? This isn't paranoia, just an observation as to how the Gov't has worked throughout recent history. Bush may be a reasonably trustworthy man to initiate such a program - but who will be the next President when he leaves.......Al Gore.......Hillary Clinton............Do You REALLY want THEM telling you how to run your church?????

4) Finally, being in Florida, I have to be Real concerned about Gov't mandates on vote recounts in the Elder's Meetings........Ha!

Seriously, I see more potential harm in this program than I see potential for good. I definitely would not recommend any church I was a part of to seek any Federal Funds for this purpose - I would rather teach them about their Christian Duties and work to help them "Flesh Out" their faith. Such would be more more gratifying to the membership and much more glorifying to God (IMHO).

-- Anonymous, July 24, 2001

Brother Danny:

I agree with you when you say the following:

“I still say.....if you are going to dance with the devil (i.e., the govt.).....you will eventually have to pay (i.e., follow their laws of inclucivism).”

It is my recommendation that we follow the teaching of God’s word and not “dance with the Devil”. For the Devil has many deceptive means designed to sever the body of Christ from it’s Head who is Christ. “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church…” (Col. 1:18). God has delivered us “out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love; in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sins”. (Col. 1:13). And because of this we are subjects of Christ the King and it is His laws that we must follow in doing His will. We are therefore “strangers and pilgrims on the earth”. Christ, our King does not need any “government assistance” to accomplish his purpose and therefore neither does any part of his Kingdom. And should Christ ever want to use the government to achieve his purpose the government cannot prevent Him from doing so. But no human government will ever be able to use Christ for their purpose and Christians should never forget who’s subjects they are and never have any part in leading the subject os the Kingdom of Christ to sever any king other than Him. It has been God’s design that through the church the manifold wisdom of God would be made known unto men. (Eph. 3:10-12) And you can be assured that if the government did not NEED the Kingdom of Christ in some way or for some reason there would be no such initiative as this so called “faith based initiative”. It is far better if the government leave us out of this thing and if they attempt to draw us into it that we resist with all that is in us. I suggest that we are “not ignorant of Satan’s devices”.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, July 24, 2001

My personal feeling is that the church in this country has abrogated its calling to care for the poor to the state, and this is great sin. It needs to take that back, and if the state is willing to allow it to do so, the church needs to pick up the ball and not drop it again.

-- Anonymous, July 24, 2001

John.... Since this is a Christian Church forum....let's be specific. In what way do you feel the RM has neglected its obligation to the poor? Be specific.....your brushstroke is way too broad.

-- Anonymous, July 24, 2001

I would agree with John ... be it the "church" or the RM congregations. I have been involved with five RM congregations is a professional staff, and a couple of others before that. Most were willing to provide a bag or two of food to those who came by. Two were willing to help members first (to some degree) thus taking care of brothers and sisters before "the world" (which I believe is correct). But most were not able/willing/??? to go the extra mile in helping people out of situations, in order that they be able to help themselves. Training in new jobs, childcare during that training, providing daily needs while that training is taking place.

I'm sure there are some out there that do just that. I know some of the congregations in Jamaica are helping to train their members (and the community at large) in job skills that will help them to work themselves "up the ladder' so-to-speak." There may be some here in the states doing the same thing. I pray that is so.

Most, I believe (my opinion) don't have the finances to offer programs such as these. Some denom's do, but that is the denominational animal, where funding goes to various activities, and it may include self-help programs. The A of G has a program kinda like this here in Indiana, providing training, free child-care, and assistance during the training to help people get started, or re- started as the case may be.

Other than that, people in Indiana County PA have to rely on the government to help. There is one good program that does what I mentioned above, but I am sure that the cost factor is outrageous. Our homeschool group does some things to help, so I know a bit how the program works. But I also know that private enterprise, or the church, or ??? can provide a lot more "bang-for-the-buck" than government agencies can.

Would I go for the dough so-to-speak? Moses was told to spoil the Egyptians before leaving Egypt. If we can get the $$$ and NOT have any strings attached that would cause us grief (as stated above) then go for it. Just be careful what you sign to get the $$$ in case there ARE strings attached. And I guess I would have to admit, with the government (no matter who is in power in DC) there is usually a spiders web of attachments, ya know!

-- Anonymous, July 24, 2001