Higher Gas prices...how will they effect your life?

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Our gas prices have taken a big jump; I paid $1.79 a gallon yesterday. They said in the radio that in Chicago, it is over $2.00 in some places! I remember when $7.00 would fill my little Ford Aspire (the teenage boys in the house say "It Aspires to be bigger!"). I bought $8.00 worth yesterday, and got just a bit over a half a tank! Our vacation plans have taken a big change; usually pack up the old school bus we modified to hold our gear, and go for a week long camping trip to some black powder event, usually the Old Northwest Territory Primitive Rendevous. Can't afford that now; old faithful Big Blue Bus slurps too much gas, as does the van, our other option, with six people in our family!

I got to thinking about this; the higher fuel prices have GOT to have some sort of effect on other things! I know we are paying $2.89 for a gallon of milk; that has gone up recently. Produce prices have got to be going up, too; think about how all this stuff gets hauled to the store! Combine this with the dire weather forecasts that I read this morning, and it sure does give you something to think about!

To put it in perspective....several of us ladies were complaining about the price of gas yesterday at a church rummage sale. The lady who was helping check us out told us that gas was the equivalent of $4.00 in Spain, during their recent trip there.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), June 09, 2000

Answers

My Dad works in the refining business. He travels worldwide helping other countries maintain their older refineries. He said this past weekend on a visit that gas prices will not be going down. The refining capacity is just not out there. Prices will probably be at least $2.00 a gallon (everywhere) by next year and will most likely stay there.

Personally, it does make a difference. Boy am I glad we're not driving a brand new SUV! I would still like to have back my 1983 conversion van, but the mini van gets better milage. I don't look forward to winter heating bills, but right now see no options available to change to. Still thinking about it though....

-- Jennifer (KY) (acornfork@hotmail.com), June 09, 2000.

The good news about it is that ethanol is now cheaper than gasoline--- about $1.16/gallon. Things like this drive the markets for alternatives. Painful now but good for us in the long run.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 09, 2000.

Illinois has the second highest gas prices in the nation (second only to Hawaii). Average price per gallon is now $2.25. I commute 125 miles to my homestead place on Thursday nights and return to Chicago on Tuesday morning. Sure makes me wish I never had to leave my place for the city. There's gotta be a way to stay home on the farm.......

-- Catherine Withrow (jersey@cin.net), June 09, 2000.

Could someone explain the true economics of this price rise. I'm old enough to remember the gas shortages ( real or contrived) that drove up prices in the 70's, and I keep hearing about lack of refinery capacity today, but my local stations seem to have an endless supply of $1.75 gas (yesterday). I live just outside a town that caters to tourist traffic going up-north and we have more than our share of vacation homes in the county and I haven't seen a big drop-off in the number of house sized SUV's pulling trailers and boats heading down the road. The price of a barrel of crude hasn't increased to the level to drive these prices and we seem to have adequate supplies to fuel whatever lifestyle. Where's the refining capacity problem come in. Maybe it's the capacity to make more money that's really driving this. Just asking.

-- Ray S (rschaub@etcconnect.com), June 09, 2000.

My hubby drives 65 miles to work each day. We had hoped he could continue until he retires. We moved here & have been getting more & more self reliant. Where, we are living you have to drive several miles to get to anything. His old truck has more miles on it then we care to talk about--but we keep our car & truck serviced regularly. Hope we can afford his trips to work until he can retire! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), June 09, 2000.

I won't mention my fuel system as it seems to upset some people when I do. I will mention an alternative to buying gasoline. It's called PROPANE! I run my OLD 78 Chev 1/2 ton p.u. 4wd on L.P. I put a 116 gallon tank in the bed to run it on. It doesn't even have a gasoline tank anymore, nor fuel pump or gasoline carb that will work. I've been working on these dudes for about 30 years converting customers vehicle to burn duel fuel. By throwing a switch and pulling a cable one can switch from Gasoline to L.P. and vice-versa. Gasoline will not decrease in price. L.P. is a tempory fix. What needs to be done is a new engine/power plant that doesn't use fossile fuels. Electric vehicles also isn't the answer. Oh, by the way---I'm paying 72 cents for L.P. plus taxes. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot gibson (hoot@otbnet.com), June 09, 2000.

For folks on fixed or no incomes or getting ready to retire, these gas price jumps are really hurting. For those of you with paying jobs, what is your wage/gas price ratio? I remember paying less for gas, but I was also making less money...I am talking about in the '70s as an example. I think the relative cost of gas isn't so much different than then.

I think people see the price of gas going up, but it doesn't hurt them because it has no significant impact...YET...the net result of more income and more expensive gas is still experienced as something within their household economy.

As we see higher food costs, clothing, etc., as fuel costs get passed up through the various business levels, people will start to feel it. But it will take a while before it hits the four car, SUV family I'm guessing. In the meantime, I am just doing what I try to do with anything I have to buy: use less, and/or use it up, and recycle. I don't have any control over the energy power brokers, so I try not to deal in their world any more than I have to.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 09, 2000.

These high prices are forcing us to raise prices on the hay we sell. It isn't just the gas that is so expensive - diesal is right up there too. We're planning on burning alot more wood this winter for heat. If it wasn't for the loggers running down the road to town, we'd be riding bikes or horses already. As it is, all trips off the farm have to count. One of our kids said she has a job if we can get her to work, but we can't justify two 40 mile round trips a day to get her to a minimum wage job. This of course, is something she has trouble understanding.

-- Anne Tower (bbill@wtvl.net), June 09, 2000.

With a minimum of 30+ miles each way to town, we rethink every trip. Is it really necessary to go for that item, or can it wait until next week, when we go get feed, groceries, etc. Sometimes a substitute will work just fine in the meantime. Actually, with less trips to the store, you spend less money, not just on gas. We will surely be using more wood--scrap lumber and downed trees that we get for nothing, to heat this year. Will try to get the propane tank filled before the prices take a hike when colder weather arrives! As for the teenager wanting to go to town to work--could she ride at least one way with someone nearby that goes in? Someone that you trust, and maybe trade eggs or something to them? Usually a card in the local store will produce some options.

-- Jan B (Janice12@aol.com), June 09, 2000.

Being fortunate enough to work at home, I haven't seen AS big an impact yet on my family as some others. But we aren't running to town as much either becuase of fuel prices, and if it involves a longer distance trip, we'll take the car instead of the truck if we can. But I have seen a gradual increase in prices @ the grocery store... For me this has an immediate plus - another reason to get as self sufficiant as possible!

Long term, I hate to say it, because it will mean more money out of my pocket somewhere along the line, but I almost hope prices do stay higher as it might help negate the yuppie migration out of the cities. Which should bring real estate prices back to reasonable levels, and keep the country country! I don't have anything against anybody who wants to move to the country to live country - just don't make the country into suburbia. When I lived in NJ, I lived in Sussex County, which is the northwest most county and borders both PA and NY, and I don't know how many times some city slicker would buy a condo during the winter that bordered a cow field on a diary farm, and come spring would start crying about the noises and smells and flies. Or cry about how there were no street lights or sidewalks, etc. Now, forget about it - too many yuppies, SUV's, sky high taxes, and massive traffic jams becuase there isn't the infrastructure nor enough local industry to support the county population.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 09, 2000.

Ray, I'll see if I can learn more about all this from my father. I never really paid all that much attention to the whole process, just took it for granted. I guess we all do to some extent. The end result is the same. We should all be planning our trips carefully. I live in a small town so it is nothing to run to the store for this or that. I do plan trips that go any further than in town though.

-- Jennifer (KY) (acornfork@hotmail.com), June 09, 2000.

I deliver newspapers for a "living"(ha!) and this is really biting into the profits. My cost has increased over 50% over the past couple of years. Gas around here is nearing $1.70/gallon, but you can find a few heavy-traffic places that are selling for $1.59. An increase over $2.00 per gallon and I will be job hunting.

-- Sue (sulandherb@aol.com), June 09, 2000.

I received an email today that said the Illinois Legislature just passed an additional tax or increased an exiting one, on gasoline. It is to take effect 6-28-00. The lowest price of unleaded junk will be $2.49 per gallon. I think they are comparing America to England or somewhere else. If so, it is stupid thinking. We are NOT England or anyplace else. We're America with large oil reserves and refinering capacities that are at the top in the world, if not THE top. If this email was legit then we have something to be concerned about herein IL. Email is calling for a gas boycott on that day. I don't think a boycott will help any, especially if it's for one day. If it were for a month then it probably would have some effect-----however---just who can afford to stay home from work or park the vehicle for a month? If the price of oil was to drop the "fine" politicans in IL will not bend to public pressure and drop ANY tax on gasoline. After all---we have to support them in the lifestyle they're presently enjoying. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot gibson (hoot@otbnet.com), June 09, 2000.

My husband drives over forty miles each way to work during the week, and even at the lower gas prices last year transportation expenses were taking an unacceptable portion of his income. He has figured that he could take a pay cut and still break even if he could find work closer to home -- he was hoping his weekend job seven miles away would turn into full-time -- but so far, no go. So if gas prices go much higher, we may have to trade vehicles, as my little Toyota Tercel gets much better mileage than his pick-up.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 10, 2000.

Gasoline prices are increasing at least in part due to the new EPA ruling that all gasoline must contain a certain additive. The additive is expected to add at least .30/gallon to the cost, and there is a plan to increment the amount of the additive. In other words, they are planning to up the levels of the additive at four different levels. The kicker is that the additive isn't going to do anything to really control pollution. I have no idea why they have mandated it, except to raise the prices. Only one company makes the additive too, so my basic conspiracy theory self says there is a rat in the woodshed.

The prediction one of my sons heard on NPR was that gas would go for around $4.00/gallon by the end of the year. That will leave folks like us in a mess.

Hoot, does propane give better mileage than gasoline? Around here gasoline and propane always run within .5/gallon of each other. If propane goes to $4.00/gallon, it won't help me unless there was a significant increase in mileage.

Looks like we will be using our Y2K wood stoves to heat with this year. I know we can't heat with propane even at the price it is now, which is $1.30 in Texas.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), June 10, 2000.

Daggone, Green.....it sure does make me wonder about the question my Hubby asked yesterday morning. He wondered outloud if there were folks out there that WANTED a recession, like happened in the late 70's and early 80's...like they were manipulating the economy so it would happen, again. Remember that time? My first two were very small, and another was on the way, and we were renting a small piece of land in the country. We had a few goats and chickens and way too many rabbits, and Hubby was scooping up cardboard boxes out of the dumpsters to sell to the recycling plants to buy groceries. We had a huge garden, and I developed problems with my pregnancy, and had to give up working on it. Hubby was working for so many hours at minimum wage that he couldn't keep up with it either. It went to weeds, and it was a hot, grim time. I would hate to think about a depression; the recession (ala Jimmy Carter) was bad enough.

But doesn't it make you wonder? Thank God we heat with wood; I found a nice stove to replace our old, saggy one at a yard sale a while back. But if the price of fuel goes up, so will the price of wood. Better get the wood now, I guess.

I ran some errands in town, early this morning, and had some buisness at a local music shop that didn't open until 10:00. I waited almost two hours in town to get my buisness done, rather than drive home and come back. Our town is an old artist colony, and full of artsy, craftsy, tourist type shops. I stepped into one of the local shops to poke around and kill time, and chatted a bit with the shopkeepers. They said that NO ONE in town was doing a good buisness this spring; not nearly enough folks coming thru. I wondered outloud if it had something to do with gas prices, and she believed that it well might. My daughter's fiancee belongs to a family that make a VERY comfy living, using their semis to haul stuff for Walmart. I heard that the fuel prices are causing BIG headaches for them too.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), June 10, 2000.

Green! L.P. doesn't get quite as good mpg as gasoline. If the price is within a nickel of each other it wouldn't save you anything--- unless-----you didn't pay the road taxes or as some states calls it the "motor fuel tax". In Illinois its a bunch---last I knew it was .22 per gallon. Without just coming out and admitting it--my post above said I had a "tank" in the bed. It's a "shop" tank!! I can run my genset or other propane equipment including my "grill". The real benefit with burning l.p. for motor fuel is the increased miles the engine will run without wearing out or getting carboned up unless the l.p. is set to run too rich. The emissions of an l.p. burner is carbon dioxide and water----NO MONOXIDE, if adjusted properly. I can't fight the crooked oil companies very much but I do feel better burning lp because it shows them i can get by without bying gasoline. I think it impresses me more than anybody else. It's also just a matter of time until l.p. goes outta sight also. We are also in the early stages of a new concept for vehicle power plants. Hope it doesn't take another 30 years to deveolp it. I don't have that long! If anybody is interested I'll furnish info about l.p. conversions--- for FREE! Matt. 24:44

-- hoot gibson (hoot@otbnet.com), June 10, 2000.

Yes, Leann, I think the fuel prices are being manipulated to cause an economic crisis. There could be a variety of reasons, which I won't expound upon here. There is also the possibility that the fuel is being jacked up so we will use less, and Mr. Gore can prove to his ecologist friends that he is a good guy. I was under the impression that this is being done with his full knowledge and approval, and he has said over and over again that we should all be paying much more for fuel.

Hoot, thanks for the info. The problem with Texas is that we pay nearly as much state taxes on propane as we do on gasoline and diesel. Last time I noticed, we are paying about .32/gallon in state and federal taxes on gasoline. It is ironic that we pay such high taxes on it when many of the East Texas oil and gas fields are within 50 miles of us. That is the way it goes.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), June 11, 2000.

Kathleen: I've been driving a VW diesel pickup for 8-9yrs. They're very economical {40-50mpg} and despite their size, can haul at least 1500lbs. Thats the most I've had on mine. It wont drag big trailers around and the cab has enough room for two people and a big-mac but I wouldn't part with mine because of the economy and usefulness.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 11, 2000.

Hoot, I for one would be interested in learning more about the conversion. Am I correct in assuming it should be an older truck that is converted? Is there such a thing as too old? (Like 40's or 50's?) How do you think your system would work on larger trucks? I also like the idea of being able to switch between gas and propane. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), June 11, 2000.

Starting a new longterm (2-3 years) project this week. I will have to drive 102+ miles each day to and from the site from my home. My farm is another 42 miles in the other direction. So from the site to the farm it's 93 miles oneway. So why don't we live at the farm, my wife, a college professor, walks to work from our home. We plan each trip out and try to spend our time durting the most productive things when we are at the farm. We planted more so we will could sell more produce this year to pay for the gas.

Public transportation for trips, my parents live 400 miles away, is really not an option. Yes, we could pick up the Greyhound bus near our house, but we have to drive 48 miles just to buy a ticket.

We fought and risked american lives in the middle east, so they could hold us hostage!

We ship Alaskain oil to Japan and not down to the states!

The EPA wouldn't allow new refineries to be built from the 70's on. No wonder they can't produce gasoline and heating oil most of the refineries are OLD.

Alternative energy, the oil companies lobbied and won for tax incentives to be stopped. Remember TAX ENERGY CREDITS in the 70's?

Wood stoves in many communities they are banned. Also, some insurance companies will not isssue you a policy it you had one.

We could lower gas prices by one third today, it they would just stop taxing it. But the goverment is like a bear the more you feed them the more they want.

Build a still to make ethanol for fuel? Yeah right, the BATF will be breaking down your door.

An alternive generator system was designed here in the states that was an external combustion unit, that is it could burn anything from rice hulls to wood to trash and generate electricity. A foreign company bought the patent and all manufacturing rights to it. They then lock it away so no one could build and sell it. Stopping the US form changing it dependence on foreign oil.

I guess we are just going to have to live with it, because no one in goverment has the guts to fix the system, repeal taxes, give tax credits to switch to Alternative energy system, help pay for the developing alternative energy.

-- Rich (pntbeldyk@wirefire.com), June 12, 2000.

The Oil industry is was making a profit on the .90 gas we enjoyed last year. They'er raping us today. This is the return on they'er campain contributions [bribes] to Congress and Billy. We will soon look back at the '90s as the "good old days", for we are at the beginning of a planed economic collapes. This is the beginning of a '70s style recession/inflation period, inwhich multinational corporations and large banking conglomerates make a killing. Get your Homesteads self-sufficient and paid off, and ride out the coming storm.

-- Mark Windbiel (mwindbiel@hotmail.com), June 12, 2000.

I think Mark really "nailed" it. There IS a storm coming-even at our doorstep, and it's going to bring most of America to its knees. I'm not a "doomsday" prophet but anybody with any brains at all can see whats happening. The politicans, big corporate crooks, foreign investors, as well as American banks, are so greedy that when each takes their cut America won't be able to stand!!!! It's everybody for himself in these last days. I'll make it, I suppose by living in the country on my own "paid for" farm. Countless millions of others living in the cities won't be so blessed. Most of them haven't been able to take the time to slow down enough to see what's happening. It is almost too late now. My advice: If you can get to the country quickly----NOW IS THE TIME. Two months from now may be too late. I won't preach but this has been written in the Word by prophets a long time ago. It's just coming to pass now. Good luck to all who read this --- and follow your heart and mind. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot gibson (hoot@otbnet.com), June 12, 2000.

Wow, the paranoia is certainly running wide and deep here. If you want the reason for higher gasoline prices, for crying out loud, look at the price of OPEC oil. It's not the oil companies, the refiners, the wholesalers, or the retailers that are making big bucks. It's not even the politicians or the bankers. It's the Persian Gulf countries. Last year in March crude oil was selling for $13 a barrel -- and we were paying, here in Maine, 99 cents a gallon for regular gasoline. OPEC nations were making so little that they were actually looking at borrowing money to balance their budgets. So they cut back production -- they announced it then, no secret, but no one believed the cutbacks would hold. OPEC members have a long history of cheating on quotas.

The cheating was minimal. The price for crude oil yesterday (6.12) broke $32 a barrel. So crude has gone up more than 250 percent while gasoline, again here in Maine, has gone up about 60 percent from last year's low.

As for Mark's "planed economic collapes" (sic), think about it, Mark. The bankers and politicians don't make money if WE don't make money. If we're not taking out loans and running up credit card debts and writing checks and putting our earnings in the bank, the bankers are out of business. And incumbent politicans know they won't stay incumbent if the electorate is hurting. How do you think Clinton defeated Bush in 1992? He "felt their pain" during the recession then.

The bottom line is that we are facing the peak of oil production globally, and the Persian Gulf countries, which have almost all the oil reserves left in the world, are sitting in the catbird seat. I'm not trying to whip up anti-Arab sentiment here, that's just the geological truth. We may see some price moderation after the June 21 OPEC meeting, IF they agree to increase production. If they don't, $2 a gallon gas is gonna look like a real bargain six months from now. No matter what happens June 21, fuel prices will never again go as low as they were last year, IMO.

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), June 13, 2000.

If anyone is in Wisconsin, or nearby to southern Wisconsin, there will be an Alternative Energy Fair held this Fri.-Sun., June 16-18. Some of the workshops that might be of interest are: "How to makebiodiesel fuel from vegetable oil", "Tesla Steam Turbine", "PEM fuel cells", and "Upcoming Oil Crisis". And there are many, many other workshops on renewable/alternative energy and related subjects such as cordwood construction. Countryside Magazine will have booth there. Home Power always does too.

This fair is usually held in Amherst, Wisconsin, but for 2000 only it is being held in Madison in conjunction with ASES (American Solar Energy Society). The fair is put on by MREA (Midwest Renewal Energy Association). You can check their website for more info: www.the- mrea.org

-- J. E. Froelich (firefly@nnex.net), June 14, 2000.

Cash Cash Cash...OPEC countries in a pinch to balance their budgets...Come on. Where did you dream that stuff up. And oil companies don't have control of oil prices over there...Yeah, right. Back in the "oil shortage" in the '70s I was a photojournalist in Houston and I went in an airplane with a reporter one day and saw dozens of oil tankers that had been anchored for weeks off shore because oil tanks were full and they couldn't unload. We saw million-gallon tanks of unleaded gasoline full to the top. We could tell because they have floating lids. There was a glut of oil and gasoline during the "oil shortage". I suspect its the same today. However, don't forget that our government has taxed gasoline at about 64 cents a gallon. Maybe more now.

-- Joe Cole (jcole@apha.com), June 14, 2000.

Well, gas IS high here in N IL, but guess what? They can't beat us. Us frugal types will cut back our driving where we can (although hubby drives 55 miles each way for work!), will shift expenses around and just deal with it! We are considering getting a better mileage vehicle for the long commute. I've been without my old van (needs major repair) for months now - couldn't have happened at a better time! Don't know what the future holds, we just do the best we can. It's a shame though, all that oil in Alaska and our prices what they are. Doesn't hurt to let your congressmen know what you think either!

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), June 14, 2000.

At his last two jobs, my husband commuted 48 and 100 miles round trip each day. Now, we are grateful he only has 14 miles into town. Even so, I'm not driving any more than necessary and give my good husband a list of things to pick up on his lunch break or after work to save my having to make a trip when he's already in town. He said that gas was at $1.72 today.

We were fortunate enough to be able to budget and "prepay" for a given amount of propane to get us through last winter. Last summer the price was $0.62/gallon. We just booked it this year and our best option of the plans offered was for $1.07/gallon maximum. If the price goes lower we pay the lower price but if it goes higher, we don't have to pay any more than the fixed price. We could have saved a little by paying a lump sum but it didn't give the flexibility on price should it drop. Big change. We too will be burning more wood this winter!

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), June 15, 2000.

Joe said: "Cash Cash Cash...OPEC countries in a pinch to balance their budgets...Come on. Where did you dream that stuff up."

Joe, Joe, Joe, look at a calendar. In case you haven't noticed, the 1970s ended a long time ago. Search the archives at stratfor.com or the NYTimes index and you'll find several articles about internal social/financial problems in Persian Gulf countries. Saudi Arabia especially has one of the highest population growth rates and one of the lowest employment rates among a key group -- young men -- in that part of the world. It (and several other oil producing countries) was in such serious financial trouble a couple of years ago that it drastically reduced oilfield maintenance and exploration expenditures so it could cover its social welfare costs to keep the population happy. Plus the Saud family keeps its Islamic fundamentalist mullahs happy with direct payoffs and $$$ support for mujadeen in other countries.

No one doubts that the oil companies are benefitting from OPEC's decisions, but the oil companies don't call the shots at OPEC meetings anymore, haven't since 1973, ironic since the oil companies had a key role in creating OPEC to begin with. And like it or not, OPEC sets the world price for oil.

FMI, go to the March 1998 Scientific American (I think it's on the web), hubbertcurve.com or, for a more doomer-oriented view, dieoff.com. What's happening now isn't what happened in the 1970s.

Regards

Cash

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), June 16, 2000.

cash First Billy-bob is not looking for re-election, second your geologic true is a little off. The U.S. sits on almost as much potential reserves of oil as the Saudis do. Third the banking industry made an enormous amount of money on 21 percent interest. Most people are trapped under huge mortgages today, with only a fraction at a fix rate. Where do you think the rest of the rates are going to go?

-- Mark Windbiel (mwindbiel@hotmail.com), June 21, 2000.

Mark, may I ask what you're referring to? Clinton's reelection isn't an issue. (For the conspiracy fans, some people theorize that George Bush I is calling in his Gulf War chits to create an energy crisis that screws Algore and puts Junior in the White House.) Don't know where you're getting your oil reserve figures, but US oil production has been in decline since 1972 because its reserves are being exhausted (pun intended). Saudi Arabia has the world's biggest share of reserves, the US is WAY down the list, somewhere below Norway. As for the money banks make on higher interest rates, they don't make diddly if no one is borrowing money or if people are reneging on the loans they do have because rates have gone too high to pay. Bank profits DECLINED during the 1970s and '80s because of high interest rates.

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), June 21, 2000.

hey i thikn we should all walk..anywayz.. no days people are just to lazy to walk when they need to get thier lazy azz off their couch or whatever they are doing and go walk...you all need to slack off and don't use any gas then they won't make the prices higher...well if you want to the real dirt email me...with no fear and i give you the low down of this gas issue...shoots den kay den bye

-- AwwVaH! (infinite_laparipa@hotmail.com), March 13, 2001.

THIS SUCKS!!!ok bye

-- find it out (yahoo@yahoo.com), April 11, 2001.

-- (noneofyour@biz.com), July 13, 2001