I e-mailed Lehman's awhile back about which woodstove to buy. I am building my own house, its 18x32 downstairs and 18x24 up with a gambrel roof (so the "walls" slope in upstairs).

I have 6" of insulation in the floors and 6" to 8" of insulation in the walls. 10" of insulation in the roof/ceiling area.

Both upstairs and downstairs are completely open, one big room, no walls. 576 sq feet down stairs, 432 sq feet up (counting the stair well). Stair well is 42" wide and about 14' long. I'm planning on cutting out an area to put a cold-air return vent but I haven't decided just where to locate it to maximize air circulation in relation to the stairwell, plus I haven't been able to find a source of where to buy one, they don't seem to make the things anymore. It's just a metal grate about 3' square, but haven't been able to find one.

Now that I have (after 3 years) finally managed to get a better-than-minimum-wage full-time "permanent" job, I have the money (or will have shortly) to add on an extension on the East end of the building to house the laundry/bathroom/mudroom, so there will be an additional 12x18 area on that end which will be mostly open to the rest of the house. I'll have a ventless propane heater in there to heat it up for baths, but other than that its ok if that section of the house is cooler than the rest, so I don't expect it to be toasty warm over there, just for the pipes not to freeze (am hoping to have a small basement area over there as well if I can afford to pay someone to do that). I am, btw, in South Central Missouri, which is solidly zone 6 most of the time (we rarely get a cold spell, had a two week cold snap 2 years ago and one that lasted about 3 weeks this past December, cold being temps below freezing during the day).

OK, that's the set up I described to Lehmans.

The answer I got back was "You can't heat a house with a woodstove. Buy a wood furnace and hook it up to the existing ductwork."

?????

New construction .... WHAT existing ductwork? And a wood furnace requires a blower to work, so that would mean no power, no heat.

Hrrrm hrrrrm hrrrrm. I did call and talk to the guy who sent the e-mail in person and after a lot of insisting did finally manage to get some of the information I was looking for (re the EFFECTIVE heat output of these stoves as opposed to what the manufacturer's tell you) but upon further thought I still have some questions. So I thought I'd ask y'all since there are a lot of people on here who heat with wood as opposed to some guy who wants me to buy a whole house forced air furnace.

And I'm not TOTALLY down on this guy, I know a lot of people call up and want to buy a pretty looking woodstove to heat their 3000 sq. foot yuppie crackerboxes that were built with no provisions made for airflow between up and downstairs and between a multitude of boxy little rooms, and that really DOESN'T work very well (at all, really). But that's not my situation. I just don't think he's flexible enough to help me out here. Anyway.

I have decided on a soapstone, non-catalytic stove. After talking to the guy at Lehmans it was the Hearthstone Phoenix I had decided on. But on thinking it over I'm wondering if I should go for the bigger stove, the Mansfield. On the one hand it almost seems silly to go for such a big stove for such a small house. On the other we do occassionally get some pretty cold weather up here that might overtax the smaller stove. I just don't know and I didn't get the impression that the guy at Lehman's was really equipped to help me evaluate this.

Here is the link to descriptions for the stoves:

Hearthstone Stoves

The Phoenix is supposed to EFFECTIVELY heat 900 to 1300 sq feet according to Lehman's (as opposed to the manufacturer's estimates). It pumps out 34,500 BTUs and operates at 72% efficiency.

The Mansfield pumps out 48,000 BTUs according to Lehmans estimates, I'm not sure what square footage that works out to. It costs about $300 more. It's only rated at 65% efficiency, which means it'll burn more wood than the Phoenix. That's a 40 percent increase in capacity, about 1250 to 1800 sq feet. Way over my floor space.

The Phoenix seems to be just what I need for my existing square footage, which is just about 1000 sq feet total up and down. Adding the 12x18 area adds about 200 sq feet, which is pushing right to the upper limit of the range for that stove. On the other hand I don't expect to keep the entire area toasty warm on that end, just not to freeze. And, I've got the propane heater over there for quick heat or emergency-don't-freeze-the-pipes heat.

So the question is (FINALLY) am I being too much of a worrywart, is the 34,500 BTU output sufficient in my situation? Or would it be short-sighted of me NOT to buy the higher capacity 48,000 BTU stove even though it SEEMS like overkill? I just want enough; I don't necessarily want to go overboard. What do y'all think?

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

Answers

I'm surprised that you had a hard time with Lehmans, we've always found them most helpful and informative.

What we learned in our search for a wood stove is that it's o.k. to get one that is higher capacity than you need as long as it is NOT catalytic.

Your house is pretty small, and very well insulated, so most of the upper end stoves should be adequate. We are heating 1400 sq ft with a Jotul Oslo and a part time wood cookstove. Our greatest concerns were not heat output, but ease of use (front and side doors, removeable ash tray, large firebox), quality and aesthetics (good casting, glass door).

Our second choice was the hearthstone, but when we looked inside, we were not impressed with the design or the quality of the welding.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

I wouldn't say I had a hard time, I just couldn't get him to discuss my heating situation looking at the woodstove as primary heat source. I can kind of see why - apparently they've been getting about a million phone calls from California residents who want to heat their poorly insulated chicken-wire-and-plaster yuppy rat-mazes with one wood stove. But that's not what I'm looking at, I'm looking at NON conventional construction and floor layout. He wasn't mean or anything, just didn't seem to be able to change gears to deal with nonconventional floor plan and construction. He hemmed and hawed too much for me to feel particularly confident about the situation.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

David, I went back and looked and Lehman's isn't carrying the Jotul's anymore. I don't want to buy a stove locally because they either cost out the ears or the stove dealer mostly only sells those cheapy forced-air sheet metal stoves, and I hate those things.

I definitely want a non-catalytic stove, and the only ones Lehmans seems to carry (in the better stove lines) are the Hearthstones and the Waterfords, and I just didn't like the Waterfords. For one thing they both had the side doors and I don't like the side doors, I want a front loader only.

What was it about the Hearthstones that you saw as being potentially problematic?

Thanks.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

Holly,

I just bought a usable, but cosmetically ugly free-standing fireplace type woodstove at an auction for $15. I have no idea what the specs are, but I don't really need it. It was just too cheap to pass up. If you're interested drop me a note. The address I post under works.

==>paul

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

It sounds to me like your original selection should be OK. Your winters are mild compared to here and your place is well insulated. I can't comment on the construction tho cause I've never looked at one closely enuf to judge. Do you plan on a hot water coil too as part of the woodburner?

As to the cold air return, are the stairs more or less centrally located in the great room? I think what I'd do is regardless of where the stairs are at I'd locate the return(s) as far away from them as possible.

The cast iron floor grates are gonna be hard to come by unless you go to one of those architectural recycler places and you'll probably pay thru the nose for them. If you're not that picky have you considered expanded metal? Its the stuff they make catwalks out of in industrial plants. Its quite rigid, easily would handle human weight if installed on 16" centers. For that try the nearest big salvage yard. They'll either have some drops(scraps from manufacturing) or salvage from used stuff. Around here it can be had for 15cents/lb.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

Sojourner.... I have a Hitzer wood stove... built by the amish in Berne, Indiana... I want to say it is a model 53... it has a 6" flue on the top of the stove... I have had it for 7+ years now with no problem... it has firebricks in it...

plus I don't know if you are near any amish, which are plentiful in Missouri... you could find a good price on a brand new one...

the company had quoted me $580.00 plus shipping and through an amish dealer... $460.00 including shipping...

I have had Ashleys, Earth Stoves, and other wood stoves and I like this Hitzer.. because you don't have to bend over to fill it... the door is higher...

I cook on the top of it among other things... heat water and so forth...

tho I have looked and asked about other stoves... I keep coming back to the Hitzer... it isn't pretty but it is heating my 1600 sqaure foot home with ease...

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

Sojo: Why not just find a cheap used one to test before spending a lot of money buying new? You sure don't have a lot of space to warm and your well insulated so you might be surprised how well just about any would do. Course this comes from a major scrounge! I found mine off the side of the road! The truth is for the last 15 years all my neighbors have had woodstoves and nobody has ever complained of being to cold but a lot have had to adjust hot houses by opening windows. Anyway enjoy your new home. Sounds wonderful, wish I could see it...Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Kirk, a cheap stove isn't going to be an effective test for how well one of the new airtight efficient stoves will operate. And I just plain don't WANT a cheap stove. I have scrimped on just about every aspect of building this house, and this isn't something I want to scrimp on, now that I don't HAVE to. There's no point in taking this job if I can't use the money to finish this house up to suit myself. I've spent 3 years in this camper that's falling apart around my ears and I've worked hard, scraped, done without, put up with leaks and bugs and spiders and mice and critters, about froze this past winter, personal disappointments both large and small, and I'm about at the end of my rope.

I WANTED a masonry stove but I just can't face the additional building time, at least not right now. Maybe after 2 or 3 years, after I've had a chance to be in this house for awhile, after several HUNDRED daily showers with all the hot water I could possibly use and space to spread out and all my books and things around me, maybe then I can stand to face another major project like building that masonry stove, but I sorta doubt it. I think this woodstove is going to be it because I just can't face another major household building project alone.

I know, $1200 or $1500 could buy a whole lot of wood (or pay for someone to come onto my land and cut it for me) but sometimes esthetics counts too. And I want to be able to lounge in front of a crackling warm woodstove this winter and watch the fire burn and relax and enjoy it. I've got my heart set on a non-catalytic, airtight stove with a glass front so I can watch the fire.

I'm finally in a position where I'll have more money coming in than just what I need to get by. Everything above and beyond what I need for the basics is gravy, and I want some gravy. Is that really so bad? I know what you're trying to say, and its not bad advice, its just - this is what I want, and I don't HAVE to compromise on it so I don't want to.

I'm sorry to go on like this, I've just been spread really really thin for a long time now.

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Holly, go with a used one for this year and maybe put in the masonary one next year or the one after. Why pay that much money for a new stove if it's not what you really want?

BTW: The one I have does have glass doors and a small built-in blower. Its biggest problem seems to be surface rust from bad storage.

==>paul

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

John - what's a hot water coil?

The stairs: Are at the W end of the building. They are L-shaped with the landing in the SW corner of the building. So I guess I would put the cold air return all the way at the E end somewhere, which is really about what I guessed should be done.

The grate: Yeah, we had a huge old behemoth of a furnace in the basement of the 100 year old farmhouse I grew up in, I always thought of it as "the octopus". It was an old coal burner that had been converted to gas and it was terribly terribly inefficient, but the system had been set up with a cold air return vent in the hall. The yups who bought and remodeled the place after my dad sold it (he'd done a lot of grunt work like replacing floor beams and rewiring and reroofing, but nothing cosmetic) threw the grate out, I am told. I sure wish I had known then what I know now, I'd have snagged it one way or another.

But the catwalk stuff - does it rust? I suppose I should paint it, right? Will it have sharp edges, and if it does, what could I do to put some sort of edging on it to cover them up? I'd like to be able to take it up for cleaning.

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Hi Sojourner,

David's not in so I will try to answer. We looked at the Hearthstone stoves and the welding looked like it wouldn't last very well. We were also warned that the stones eventually would crack. Even the dealer said you had to be very careful not to scratch the tops. When we compared the Jotul's side by side with them the better quality of the Jotul was clear (actually not side by the side the dealers were about a mile apart but we kept going back and forth).

We also noticed that Lehmans stopped carrying Jotul. It was a high end stove, very pricey. Like David I am surprized they weren't more helpful. Did you deal with Galen Lehman? THey are used to working with the Amish, many of whom only have wood stoves so I don't know why they responded like that (unless like you said they have been taking heat from folks who think having wood heat should be equivalent to changing your thermostat. The deal Lehmans worked for us they had the stove shipped direct to us and didn't charge any shipping, making the whole deal about $400 cheaper than the dealer (who was about 2 hours away). We were very appreciative of them.

We have also heard that there is a stainless steel stove called LoPi which people generally like. We wanted a cast iron one though and having spent quite a bit of time in Norway were impressed with the Jotuls.

Having said all of this, the Hearthstone stoves are absolutely beautiful and I can see why you would want one. My advice is try to see the stoves before you buy one, even if it means driving hours to a dealer. Examining the quality in person made a real difference to us.

Kim

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Yarrow - the Amish that are close to me are funny Amish - they have phones in their houses and use them recreationally (e.g. not just business, they get on their and gossip up a storm as bad as Aunt Bee ever did). They also drive their tractors to Walmart and the grocery. But they don't use zippers. I've seen buttons on the mens clothes but not on the womens - their dresses are held together with straight pins and I hate to tell them but they don't do a very good job of it, I would feel undressed walking around gapping like that. The strangest Amish I have ever seen.

The one house of theirs I've been in had a ventless propane heater.

There is another Amish community about 40 or 50 miles away that are totally different, appear to be more like the "normal" Amish I am used to (where I grew up in Ohio) but you just don't see them around much. Not sure how to contact them. They do drive buggies and plow with horses though.

I've heard there's an "Amish store" over there but nobody seems to know where it is. I've never been able to locate it, but somebody told me they thought it was mostly just food anyway and it was in somebody's house. Never been able to find out for sure.

I'm hoping to stop by Lehmans when I go to Ohio next week. We'll see when I get there.

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Holly, Ok I guess you aren't interested in the stove I have. The Amish store off of 'C' north of Seymore is fairly easy to find, but they don't have much. There is a small non-Amish bulk food store on 'C' too that is worth looking for. Both are on farms, but what else would you expect.

==>paul

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Yes, I have been to alot of amish settlements throughout Indiana, Ohio, Iowa and Wisconsin... and yes, they are all different...

If you find an amish "bulk" or food store... ask there if anyone carries wood stoves... usually the "supplier" doesn't carry stoves in stock, but will get you one...

oh, I have stories about amish that could make your toes curl.. but then again... I have been around them all my life..

-- Anonymous, July 02, 2001

Sojo: Some of the better wood stoves have a hot water coil that will pre heat your domestic hot water as well as serving as a space heater. I'd guess they'd require a very small fractional horsepower circulating pump to move the water from the stove to the waterheater unless you put the water heater up stairs and rely on the thermosyphon effect to circulate the water. JOJ would be better able to fill you in on details for this.

As far as the grate is concerned, personally I don't think of the catwalk material as being excessively sharp but maybe thats just me. Yes it will rust but if you're financially flush these days take it in and get it color coated. Thats a "baked" on, very thick type of coating that will last longer than you and I hear its not that expensive. It shouldn't be too hard to recess it in between the floor joists so you can pull it up when you need to.

As I was thinking about it there's actually at least two different types of catwalk material. One is the expanded metal I referred to earlier and another is 1 x 1 1/2" bar stock welded on edge to a "stringer". The bar stock is spaced about 1" apart. Of the two the bar stock is the more rigid.

-- Anonymous, July 02, 2001

Thanks for all the advice. Re the grate, I'd like to find something that won't be too hard on bare tootsies. I'll look around, and maybe I'll luck out and find something in a yard sale or house being demolished.

I'm here in Ohio to visit my dad, hope to make it to Lehmans to look at stoves Sat. morning, and see Gene Logsdon in Lancaster Sat. afternoon.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2001