Has anyone on here gone through bankruptcy? would you like to share what it was like, and were there any repercussions that you werent expecting?

We are in way over our heads. We lost $30,000 on real estate, $10,000 in an investment that turned out to be a fraud, have racked up over $25,000 on credit (stupid, but it was a way to prolong the agony of facing bankruptcy), and now my hubby was unable to work for a month due to a medical emergency, which cost several thousand to pay for the surgery. The IRS is breathing down our necks for back taxes, and we are simply facing the wall. Hubby is working far harder than he ought to be so soon after the surgery, to try to meet the bills, but it looks like for the first time in our lives, we will not be able to meet them. Long term, it simply looks impossible. Bankruptcy is the only way to get out of this, it seems.

Do any of you have experiences along this line to share?

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@ yahoo.com), June 29, 2001

Answers

I would be curious to know about the loss in real estate, because you do not give details.

Be aware that bankruptcy will NOT stop IRS, won't even slow them down.

Have you tried a credit counselor type of service. If you do use one, be sure that they know everything so that they can do thier work properly.

A little more detail would be needed to give any usable reccomendations.

-- OH (edcopp@yahoo.com), June 29, 2001.

IF you approach the IRS Taspayer Assistance person in your local office they have the authority to forgive or delay a portion of your taxes. If you do not get any satisfaction from that person, politely ask for the name and phone number of their supervisor.

The IRS has no interest in driving a citizen into bankruptcy

-- C. Van Milligen (CAVM@AOL.com), June 29, 2001.

Dear Smackerel, my husband and I went through a bankracy about 2 years ago. Our debts were related to a buisness that went bad and hospital bills and all of them were at least 2 yrs old. So I can tell you about what we went through and I hope it will help you. We had a lawyer to represent us which we had to pay before the bankrucy became final he filed the papers with the federal gov. After a month or so we had to go to a real informal bankrucy court where they asked several questions in front of many, many other people also filing. At that meeting the companies you owe money to can protest the bankrucy. We didn't owe Sears anything but they had a rep. there for other people in fact they fought every case that money was owed to them. Anyway after that meeting maybe 2 months you get a letter telling you the outcome.

Here is a couple things I learned to do keep a copy of the bankrucy and a copy of all debts forgiven. Get a copy of the your records from the various credit bureas and make sure that they are correct with the records of the bankrucy.

When you file bankrucy it last 10 years on your record, but just so you know if you go through these agencies to help you pay all your debts they also report thay fact to the credit bureas. It last on your record 10 yrs.

One more thing, this was a lot harder on us mentally and spiritually than we thought it would be and we will never do it again.

Good luck we wish the best for you.

-- Wynema Passmore (nemad_72039@yahoo.com), June 29, 2001.

Get a financial adviser, talk to your creditors, arrange payments through a company that handles credit card debt, do what ever you have to to prevent going bankrupt. It seems like a simple answer but will haunt you for many years. And true it will evertually be removed from you credit record but people you bankrupt on will remember and they will find reasons to not extend you loans or credit that are legal. right now it seems there is no way out but you got your self in this and you can get yourselfs out. It may take help from advisers and time but you can do it. I have had to pay for bad financial deals that failed but I learned from them and don't have to feel that I cheated someone out of what I agreed to do. True the bankrupcy law make it legal but not moral to not pay money you owe. Best of luck and wishes and sorry it happened but hang in there and you will be proud or yourself.

-- David (bluewaterfarm@mindspring.com), June 29, 2001.

it was designed for people in your shape its perfectly legal and the rich do it all the time. Bob se.ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@hit.net), June 29, 2001.

David, It sounds like you own stock in the credit card companies.With the interest they charge and the way they rip people off. Maybe you should get off your high horse. Spike

-- Spike (spike@hotmail.com), June 29, 2001.

Very good advice given here. I agree you should try something like Consumer Credit Counseling. Make a list of ALL debts to prepare for meeting with them. They should be in your phone directory. If not, email me and I'll find someone for you.

Be very careful in talking with an attorney for "advice" on filing bankruptcy. Remember, they don't make a dime for advising you NOT to file. There's a big vested interest there.

If, after availing yourself of the other avenues, you find filing is your only alternative and then want to learn how to re-establish some credit, again, email me and I'll be happy to help you. My business involves me in finance and credit on a daily basis and I have some ideas for you in that arena. I hope this all works out for the best for you. Good luck.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), June 30, 2001.

The best thing to do is talk to a bankrupcy attorney.

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (bardyard_mini@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

David, we have paid those credit card companies! They have changed the interest rate from reasonable when we took the debt, to totally out of this world unreasonably high. If they would have kept the interest at the same rate they began with, we could have handled it. But they have gotten every penny back out of us that we ever borrowed, through those confiscatory interest rates. The reason they charge those high interest rates for those of us who are in over our heads, is because they know we are headed for bankruptcy, and this is the way they get the money back. Well, they have gotten it all back, plus a healthy chunk!

We used to live totally without credit. 10 years ago, we never had even owned a credit card. We bought all our vehicles used, with cash. We socked money away into savings, and went on vacations when we had plenty of cushion. We have decided to go back to that method. Never again will we allow ourselves to be sucked into this mess. If we go the cash route for everything, we will always know exactly where we stand financially. We can save money and put it in the bank to gain interest for US instead of putting interest money in other people's pockets. When we look back at all the interest we have paid others, it is horrifying! We could have rented cheap, lived cheap, and bought a nice place eventually -with cash! And we are determined to do so in the future.

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

I have never filed a bankruptcy but I have worked for a mortgage company. I would definately advise "against" a credit counselor. It will carry the same weight on your credit report as a bankruptcy (as far as your credit score) It only sounds like a good idea. Whether bankruptcy is a good idea for you or not, I don't know. It will haunt you for a very long time. If you file a chapter 13 (having the courts distribute your payments for you) You will not be eligible for ANY credit til it is disolved and you have paid off everything you are claiming. If you file a chapter 7 and you are granted this, the slate will be wiped clean. But again as it was mentioned earlier you can't bankrupt the IRS or federal student loans. If you do file on the other stuff, make sure it will be worth it. Do you have a mortgage or are you renting. Do you owe on any vehicles? You can re-instate any loan on anything you wish to keep. As far as the credit cards, that is unsecured debt and they can't really do anything to you for this. They might take you to court to garnish your wages but they can't reposess anything. If each account is under $2000. It really isn't worth their time. They will just try to harrass you to death. There is so much info on this that would be too lengthy to say here. I would first recommend a book by Dave Ramsey called "Financial Peace". He has a syndicated radio show called "The Money Game". I don't know where you are located but if I can help anymore feel free to e-mail me. Sorry if I got too long winded.

-- Ria in Ky (MinMin45@aol.com), June 30, 2001.

Hey Smack, We just recently bankrupt ourselves. I am kind of in the same situation. My back doctor put me on permanent lifting, bending restrictions which put me out of a job. Before losing my job I was just barely keeping the bills paid and a lot of times I would be late on my credit cards. Afterwards, we deciced to file bankrupt and our lawyer told us we were doing the right thing by coming in early. It has been a big relief and I've been happier now than I was before I lost my job. And don't worry about your credit, if you been late on paying any of them than your credit is shot anyway. You only have to go 100 days before you can finance anything again, and believe me credit card offers will still be coming to your mail box regardless of your bankrupt. We even got an offer the other day from a credit card company that was "for people who have bankrupt and need to get back on their feet". They will do anything to make you their slave again. Although you have to wait 100 days before you can establish any kind of credit, you will probably have to pay a higher interest which you will have to anyway if you were previously late on any of your bills before bankrupt. Your right about the amount that you have already paid to the credit card companies. I've probably paid three times as much for everything that we purchased. When we went before the judge, there wasn't any of our creditors show up to speak against us, nor did we see anybody elses, and there were a lot of people in there for the same thing. It took about 30 minutes of waiting to see the judge and about 5 minutes to answer the judges question and it was all over with. ALLELUYAH. If I was you I would file because it sounds like your credit is already shot anyway and I would do it fast because President Bush is going to pass a law making it harder to file for bankrupt. If he is going to do that than he should make it a law making it harder to obtain a credit card. I heard the other day that this guys 6 year old daughter is even getting credit card offers in the mail. Now days you don't even have to have a job in order to obtain a credit card. I hope this is of some valuable information to you and pray that find relief in your situation.

-- Russell Hays (rhays@sstelco.com), June 30, 2001.

There is a lot of talk here about the evil credit card companies. They can be evil, but they are not the ones who spent the money that got you in debt. They are not the ones who got the new furniture, the new boat or whatever. According to the statistics many of these purchases are probably for items that are not a necessity. I know this for a fact, because I have been there. I have been in debt over my head, but you can only blame the person who got you into this mess YOURSELF.

I know this is not a popular view to not blame the credit card companies for your debt, but the truth is you did it yourself. I used to blame the credit card companies and anybody else I could for my problem, but I was only fooling myself. Now I sleep well at night knowing that I did not take money from others by declaring bankruptcy. I will admit though that it was very tempting. When someone declares bankruptcy, the costs are passed on to others who purchase items from that firm. It is the same as when someone shoplifts from a store. The store just raises prices to everybody else to make up for the loss. I read recently Wal-Mart prices would be about 19% lower if no one shoplifted at their stores. That is an incredible figure. I do not know what the figure for bankruptcy is, but I know it adds to the price that everyone pays at the store.

It took years to get rid of my debt, but it is a good character building experience. I know my view is not popular, but is it not true?

-- Bob Wick (bjwick@hotmail.com), June 30, 2001.

A few years ago, Hub and I woke up and realized that our use of credit cards was evil. We called Genus Credit Management and have been happy with the results. Their website is www.genus.org (or .com) They have negotiated with our credit card companies and got the interest rates lowered. We have a set amount deducted from our checking account each month.

Two things that are noteworthy:

1. Sears is evil. They will NOT lower their interest rates. At all. Our counselor at Genus didn't make that point clear, so we've been paying 21% interest for 2 years OUCH. I switched that debt to an 8.9% card that has a permanent fixed interest rate. I have heard so much about Sears and their awful ways of 'helping' people with easy credit that I refuse to shop there. They may have the best prices, but their tactics speak louder than a few dollars.

2. Just because you get credit card offers in the mail it does not mean you will get credit. We had a friend living with us while he divorced his gambling addicted wife. (You can guess his financial situation.) He got a few offers and decided to get a card for emergencies. The card he selected said that he was eligible for $10,000 in credit. He got the card, but a $200 limit was in place. The offers you get in the mail are mass produced and every person's credit is NOT scrutinized. They'll invest the money in a credit report if-and only if- they get any takers.

On the other hand, after 2 years with Genus, I applied for a credit card through my bank and was able to get $7,500 of a possible $10,000 limit. Not bad.

Good luck. Remember, it's only money. It can't buy you love, your kid's hugs or any of the stuff that really matters.

Sorry so long. Tonya

-- Tonya Yetter (Tonyaah_98@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

The idea that bankruptcy will ruin your credit is a little bit of which came first the chicken or the egg. I am sure your credit is already ruined by slow and non-payment. The only way to fix your credit is to replace it with good credit, timely payments. So either file and start over, or fix your credit by making timely payments now. So if you can't pay, than bankruptcy is the only choice. And don't worry, after your bankruptcy the credit card companies will be calling once again.................just like dieting if you don't change your lifestyle, you will gain the wieght (debt) right back again!

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 30, 2001.

It's depressing to see so many people taking the easy way out while people like me strive to be accountable and responsible for our situation. Here I am, a fulltime single parent of a 6 and 8 year old about to become homeless and bankruptcy would solve alot of problems but it's never been an option for me. A little over 3 years ago I had good credit, over 50k in the bank, a nice income. I had been injured on the job in 94 and instead of living off the system since I could no longer work hard labor averaging 60 hours a week, I started my own business. I have no degrees or credentials and my only work history was hard labor so I was limited in finding a new career working for someone else. About the same time, my wife developed manic depression and eventually turned to drugs, alcohol and all the immoral things that go along with that stuff. I stuck with her through 2 years of mental hospitals, her many disappearances and insane events. She finally drifted off forever a bit over 2 years ago. Throughout that hellish nightmare, I lost my business, my lifes savings, and ended up in 25k debt. Only 4k is credit card debt and to me that's alot. The bulk of it is to a brokerage firm that screwed me over because they have the power to do that. All that debt was accumulated during that time and I've made sure to not add to it, although I could have if I wanted to and it sure would have made our lives easier but to me life isn't about making it easy on myself at the expense of others. When people ditch out on their repsonsibilities like debt, do you really think it just vanishes? Someone has to cover it, that's why alot of credit cards are such high interest or hard to get. In the end, society pays for the irresponsibility of others. It amazes me to see people rack up so much on credit cards. They can't tell me they had intentions of paying it back. How convenient to not be accountable for your own actions. Most of my situation was caused by someone else and my caring for the mother of my children but here I am accepting 100% responsibility for everything that happened. I've seen many people claim bk just to take the easy way out. I've never seen even 1 person that couldn't have paid their debts back in time if they wanted. On a somewhat related note, if anyone in Southern California knows where me and my kids can find a home immediately, email me at DSMAIL1@earthlink.net. We're having a tough time finding a place because I have negative credit now. I am not looking for a free ride whatsoever. We're living in a very expensive situation now and I need to cut our expenses so I can dig out of this hole. At the same time, I'd rather not have my kids living in a ghetto so we're very limited in finding a reasonably priced rental in a decent area. We'd love to live in a rural area. I am very motivated and handy to have around. Though I have a ruptured disc that limits me a bit on heavy lifting, I can still outwork most people I know. I am very mechanically and technically inclined and have alot of tools in storage gathering dust. I grew up on a farm. My kids are quiet and well behaved. They will likely never see their mother again but have adapted to the situation very well. We have no extended family so I'm all they have. We got lucky that we have been able to live in this apartment for the last year but it's not in our name and I can't renew the lease so we have to move immediately. It's also almost 1k a month rental(pretty insane but not abnormal in so cal for a 2bd apt) and as long as we pay that kind of living expenses, we'll never overcome this damage. We're about out of savings and my income is not making it right now. I'm extremely limited being a fulltime single parent alone in all this mess. I am cautious to get involved with anyone now so our next best situation is to cut our living expenses. Regardless of how bad things get for us, never in a million years would I consider not being accountable and putting our misfortune on the backs of society like many that posted here seem to have done.

-- nobody (nothing@nowhere.no), June 30, 2001.

I also wanted to add that you people who've take the easy way out make it so much harder for us that don't. I never expected to see these kinds of responses in the Countryside message board. I thought the main theme of the countryside way of life was SELF-RELIANCE. To me that means being accountable for your actions or anything that involves you, no matter how extreme the situation is. The hell with you people taking the easy way out and making it tougher on people that are actually responsible for themselves.

-- nobody (nothing@nowhere.no), June 30, 2001.

Yep Nobody I must agree with you. Ok everyone let me have it...I would cut back ,get a 2nd or 3rd job just to stay out of a debt that high. I would bread and water for weeks if i had to,the last thing i would do would be to throw in the towel and expect others to "save" me. Why are credit card intrest so high ... cause so many people spend away and they do not get repaid.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), June 30, 2001.

Well, I don't see anyone putting down giant companies going bankrupt and I'm talking about millions of dollars. But you are ready to hang the little guy,sorry whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I'm crying real big tears for all the credit card companies. Twenty years ago a pawnbroker would have been jailed for the rates these companies charge today.Anybody know how many credit card companies have gone bankrupt? How many are still doing business under a different name afterwards? It is all a house of cards,the quicker it falls the better. Spike

-- Spike (Spike@hotmail.com), June 30, 2001.

I have this to say. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But before this gets any uglier and critical of each other..... and another reason to end the forum, lets consider this. We never can predict the circumstances in life we meet. Today we may be able to write a reply to this post and be critical of others who have gone bankrupt or are considering it because we have not experienced circumstances which may lead to it ultimately.

But.... tomorrow.... may be different, you may find yourself in a situation where your world begins to crumble, where you no longer have a job due to economic cutbacks and layoffs, to illness, to whatever, and then you find yourself trying to survive the best way you know how. You then wonder how in God's name you are going to meet the bills, you pray that you can find a way. But despite your best efforts you are faced with the decision to file bankruptcy. "Nobody"... I pray you never experience such a fate, but if you do you will eat those cruel words.

I will concede "Nobody" that there are abuses to every system and situation, and in light of that your points are warrented.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

We have never been faced with this decision. We knew when we made a debt it was ours to pay off - not the tax payers of the USA. No we may not directly pay the bad debts others create but we do by paying higher prices.

I would like to give you an example of what can happen - this is a true story unfortunately which happened to a man who works for my husband.

Spring '00 my husband's work cell phone kept ringing with bill collectors wanting to talk to "Bill" a man who works for my husband. After this going on for a while and interrupting work, my husband told Bill the personal calls had to stop - no more. When the next call came in DH told the caller the same thing. The calls finally stopped.

In Aug Bill confided to DH that they were in serious trouble, financially. They owed nearly $50K in cash advances on credit cards. They also owed Sears, Penney's, etc. They had bought all new appliances from Lowe's. In total, they owed almost $100K on credit cards and a truck loan. His parents paid off their home because they were almost 1 year behind in payments.

He said he had no idea what had happened, they always paid their bills on time. When the truth came out, Bill's wife had been going to the "boats", gambling, instead of going to work. She had lost her job as a result. They filed for Bankruptcy, the type that wipes out all your bills. Since most was in cash advances there was nothing those creditors could do. Lowe's accepted .10 on the dollar. Bill's wife now has a new kitchen for $75. I am just waiting for the next time I need something from Lowe's, I better get the same deal.

On/about Dec 15, 2000 they became debt free. Never bothered them a bit. They actually bragged about it at the company Christmas party. If they only knew the names they were called and what was said about them when they left the party.

Now the kicker - Jan 2001, they purchased their son a BRAND NEW TRUCK for his 16th birthday!!!! Seems since they had actually paid their loan to one local bank they got the new loan with no problem. This made everyone see red. Not only will everything I buy cost more but they have a new truck. I literally screamed when DH told me.

Then the bottom fell out - Feb 2001, their son, being a teenager totalled the truck on a Friday night, they had somehow cancelled the insurance so they owe for it still.

On the following Monday night when Bill picked his daugher up at dance class (benefit of being debt free I guess) and they had a wreak which almost killed him and seriously injured her. It was his fault so he is totally responsible for their bills along with the 2 people in the other car who were injured and their car totally.

He had medical insurance (paid for by work if he works a certain number of hours per month) but his daughter had none and he only had what the law required on vehicle insurance.

He was in the hospital until May 2001, might be able to return to work by Sept, on light duty. Being a pipefitter on construction sites does not allow for much light duty so doubtful he will ever return.

His daughter is OK she got out after 3 weeks. Luckily the other people were not seriously injured. God only knows how. I am not sure how the other people got a car, I doubt Bill had coverage to replace it but I may be wrong - if required by law he had it.

Bill's medical insurance lapsed in March so I have no idea how they will pay the bills. His wife is working 2 jobs, all 4 kids are working after school and on weekends. Last time I saw them, I took some casseroles over, Bill's wife said she had called the lawyer to begin bankruptcy proceeding again only to be told they can't file again so quickly.

To them bankruptcy was the way out of a lot of self induced troubles. I bet now they wish they had paid their bills as best they could last year so now when they NEED the protection of bankruptcy they could have it.

Think long and hard about doing this. I guarantee you no one will have any respect for you ever again, I don't care what you are told by others. It may only be on your credit report for 7-10 years but it will be in people's memory a lot longer.

As my husband likes to say, Suck up and be a man. He says this to the men and women who work for him and they always find a way to solve the problem.

P.S. How many jobs are you and your kids working to help pay your bills?

-- Viv in TX (kudzu1@webtv.net), June 30, 2001.

Look, we tried to pay our bills. We NEVER have been late in paying ONE BILL. We were thinking it would take us many many years to get out of debt, and we were working on it, had even cut up the credit cards to do so. We know it is a shameful thing to do, to take bankruptcy, but we have no other choice. My hubby's recent surgery and concomitant time off work has thrown a monkey wrench into everything.

By the way, for all those who judge us harshly for not trying, may I say this? My hubby is self-employed, and works HARD, many more hours than he would be required if he had a regular job. He usually works a 12 hour day, sometimes more. We drive old clunkers, which actually are paid for, and raise most of our food. I have never ever bought myself a ready made dress out of the store. I either sew cheaply, or get clothes at yard sales. Our children are still young, and I am homeschooling for religious reasons. I hope you dont judge me for that.

I understand how some of you are angry at us for even concidering going bankrupt. I know you feel it makes it harder for the rest of you. But let me say this. It is YOU that gets you into debt, just as it was US who got ourselves into our mess. However, some of this was beyond our control. Such as the credit cards changing the interest rates, up to as high as 29 percent, even though we have NEVER been late with a payment! And such as my husband's medical emergency. I think you should be less judging of those who land in such circumstances. After this is over, we have committed ourselves to NEVER going into debt again. Even though we understand it is not a good thing to file bankruptcy, in our situation,we simply have no choice, as we cannot see getting out of this at all. And you better believe, I am not going to go bragging about it!

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

And yes, we live in an old rented farmhouse, as cheap as we can rent. Satisfied?

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

Nobody, certainly just because some of us gave bankruptcy information to smackerel of honey, does not mean we condone or would ever do it ourselves. I feel it is stealing, and god forbid the total dollars bankruptcied every come back to them 7 fold! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 30, 2001.

Ok do not take this wronge but....shut down the internet,get a job at night,sell everything you bought with the credit cards and call the companies and have them tell you how they are able to jack up your intrest rate.Think about transfering them to a new card at a lower rate.Go to your bank and see if your husband can get a buisness loan {we are always offered them},you need to prove contracted work and equipment you can put up.What else can you sell? do you have livestock that costs you money,sell it. Can your husband get an office type job on weekends?or could you babysit durning the day? every extra dollare is worth it.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), June 30, 2001.

Somebody mentioned corporations going bankrupt and not crying for the credit card companies because of the rates they charge. If a corporation goes bankrupt, it takes a major overhaul of the corporate structure, often somebody outside buying all or part of the company, to restart it. Wards went bankrupt, they no longer exist. Should we eliminate people who go bankrupt too? (I know there are many types of bankruptcy, some are easier to survive than others for companies.) If a person goes bankrupt, they should be forced to undergo a major financial overhaul too--like having to hire somebody to manage their money. As for the credit card companies rates, they wouldn't be nearly so high if they always got paid back on time. Look at the financial reports of lending banks some times, they are not immune to financial troubles. They are not in business to hand out money, they are in business to make money. If they can't do that then why should they stay in business?

Now for my sermon on personal debt.

If you borrow money to make money, there is nothing wrong with that. The banks know what you are doing with it and have enough faith to back you. In a sense they become a silent partner. If you have to declare bankruptcy, well the bankers were willing to take the risk, so they should take some of the loss.

If however you are financing a lifestyle you are being very short sighted. Unless your income is increasing at a higher rate than what you are paying for interest, borrowing MUST make your financial situation worse and not better in the long term. Borrowing money to finance a lifestyle may seem to make life easier at first, but almost always makes it harder in the long term. One possible exception to this is a mortgage. If it is on par with what you would be paying for rent, a mortgage makes good sense. I have only met a few people who moved out of a rental and into a mortgage that didn't also try to increase there standard of living at the same time--i.e. most people's mortgages are far bigger than their former rent.

But I have to have to cook, so I need this $500 stove and $1000 fridge, you say. I have 2 working fridges (well, they would work if I was on the grid) that I paid $1 each for. Actually the second one I got a washing machine with it, for $1 total. It is not only possible, but downright easy, to get a livable setup of furniture and kitchen appliances and such quite cheap. They won't look nice or match, but they let you earn interest while saving for new ones instead of paying interest and taking the added risk just to have a house that looks impressive. Is your ego worth paying that much for?

I agree with the poster who said, in effect, that debt and bankruptcy are (in general) counter to the homesteading ideal of self sufficiency.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), June 30, 2001.

what would you do if bankruptcy didn't exist? Things seem pretty impossible for me at the moment also. For me, bankruptcy or welfare isn't an option. Because of ridiculous interest, I'm paying $300 a month to just keep my debt from going higher. I owe a bit of back taxes also from when I was self-employed. I have been unemployed for a month, they pulled up stakes and went back to Japan and now we're trapped having moved here last year for the opportunity that sounded like the cure for our problems. Being a fulltime single parent of 2 young kids really limits my employment opportunities. If I had no kids, or abandoned them like thier mother did, I'd be free to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week, live in a cheap room and be out of this 25k debt in 6 months time. The past year I worked from home on the net which helped alot. If I could find childcare I could afford, or even had family or friends my kids could stay with, I'd work day and night and be out of this mess in a years time. I only sleep 4 hours a day as it is but I can't leave my kids home alone. Since I have no degrees and no resume to speak of, I can't expect much of a job when I do finally find one. I wish I could refinance this debt but I've tried to no avail. I drive a 12 year old vehicle with almost 170k miles on it. If I sold what possessions we have left for pennies on the dollar, it might get us through another month or 2, if I could wait it out for them to sell. Not one bit of my debt was from extravagant purchases. We live very frugal outside of this insane rent we pay. We don't spend money on things like cable tv. $20 a month for internet is our only expense outside of basic living expenses. I'd love to cut my rent in half or more but nobody wants to rent to someone with bad credit and not enough money to put down 3-4 months in advance. Our next step from here is putting our things in storage, living in a tent at a campground and praying for a miracle. I've tried hard to find another single parent to team up with so I can work day and night and have someone reliable to watch my kids but so far, that's been impossible also. My kids even though their only 6 and 8 could probably be fine home alone since they are mature and responsible for their age, but if a state agency found out, I'd be charged with a crime and lose my kids. Bankruptcy and/or welfare would be a start to solving our problems but to do that would require putting my problems on society and for me that's not an option. Somehow we'll find a way. I left the farm I grew up on at 18 with $200 in my pocket and made it to living in a nice house, nice cars, money in the bank, etc 10 years later. Things do seem impossible and it may end up taking me 10 years to get out of debt when I find a way to just survive, but that's a fact of life when you're accountable for anything that involves you. I swear to God the people I've seen claim bankruptcy have all been in a much better position than myself and could have found a way to work things out, even if that required losing everything they had. They only did it to ditch out on their debts and make their lives easier. Once again, what would you people do if bankruptcy didn't exist?

-- nobody (nothing@nowhere.no), June 30, 2001.

Ok, here is the REAL scoop on bankruptcy. I am a paralegal in a law office that specializes in bankruptcy. I have been doing bankruptcy for 7 years (Florida).

There are Federal Bankruptcy laws and State Bankruptcy laws. Each state is differant in that in some states your property you reside in (called your "homestead property" --- fitting isn't it??? :) is exempt. In other states your property is not or cannot be valued beyond a certain amount. Additionally, each state differs in how much equity you can have in vehicles.

There are several Chapters of Bankruptcy -- mostly commonly is Chapter 7 (which wipes out all debts without any repayment -- but you the amount of assets you have are very limited) and Chapter 13. In a Chapter 13 you can keep more assets but you have a repayment of a portion of your debts that you pay in a monthly payment to the Court.

The bankruptcy laws are about to change...literally any day now. Both the House and Senate have passed the new bankruptcy bill and they are melding into one bill as we speak. They are expected to come to an agreement sometime in July. Under the new bankruptcy laws almost everyone will be forced into a Chapter 13. There is currently a provision that the new laws will not take effect for 6 mths.; however, the last bankruptcy overall had the same provision and they took it out at the last hour. The president has said he will immediatly sign the bill upon passing.

About the IRS debt...in general, unless your IRS debt is more than 3 years old it is not discharagble in a bankruptcy. Also, if IRS has a lein or you have a written agreement for repayment, that debt is not discharable no matter how old it is. Also, FYI, student loans of any type are, in general, not discharable.

So here is what you need to do. Make an appointment to speaak with an attorney ASAP!! Do NOT under any circumstances go to a paralegal service (they are prohibited under law from giving advise...they can only fill out forms). Most attorneys do not charge for your inital consultation on bankrutpcy. Even if they do, it is money well spent. Be certain to go to one that specializes in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy law is VERY complicated and bad things happen very quickly if your attorney is not skilled in bankruptcy law.

Do NOT file it on your own! There is special wording and calculations that need done and the average man-on-the-street would not know. Also, you will be required to attend a hearing in Federal Court and you need legal counsel present. Again, things can go bad real quick and it will cost a fortune to untangle.

Skip the credit counseling. Bad, bad advice!! If you go to a reputable attorney he will let you know whether bankruptcy is in your best interest. If there is a way for credit counseling to work, he will suggest that. You could spend lots of money paying your creditors only to end up filing bankrutpcy anyway...a waste of money.

Don't be embarassed and don't look back. Deal with where you are right now and look for the solution. You will not believe the burden that is lifted once you get sound advise!

Once last piece of advice...don't take anyone's advice!! LOL :)....talk to an attorney. The old thing about attorneys is not true if you get a good reputable one. There are more honest and caring attorneys than there are riff-raff ones. It is just the lousy ones have given the others a bad rap.

Oh yes, anothe thing. At your hearing, a creditor cannot protest because he does not like it you are filing for bankruptcy. He has to have a "legal" reason for any protest -- fraud, etc.

Best of luck! I see everyday the stress financial difficulties puts on people. Unless you are going through it, you have no idea! I will say a prayer for you. And don't put off dealing with it now...especially in view of the new law changes!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

One last thing here after re-reading some of the other posts. Doesn't matter how you got to this point....hey, people mess up sometimes. Even God knew that...what do you think the "Year of Jubilee" was about in the Bible. It was about forgivness of debts! Give these folks a break. I am sure they work just as hard as the rest of us.

And by the way, the credit card companies take advantage of people's inability to pay with highering the interest rates, late fees, over limit fees, etc. They harrass you morning and night on phone, call employers, neighbors, etc. Honest and truly, no one asks for that kind of pressure and stress...maybe some do bring it on themselves...but in the 1,000's of bankrutpcies I have done, I can only think of 3 that were only out to scr__ the credit card companies. The rest where folks that it just somehow all got out of hand. Maybe the rest of us didn't run up credit card debt...but we all mess up just as bad in other things that mean even more (maybe marriages, kids, etc.). Everyone is entitled to mistakes. When someone realizes there mistakes lets all get behind them and encourage them and let them know it will be ok.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

smackerel of honey, if your husband is laid up at home, why not let him homeschool your kids while you go out and work? Work day and night for a while and I bet you could make it out of this without claiming bk. With 2 people involved, there's little reason you've mentioned that one of you couldn't be working. I wish to God that I had a partner involved in my situation, even if all she could do was be at home for my kids. You are luckier than you realize.

bernice, I am faced with that kind of situation, and it's alot dire than I make it sound because I want no ones sympathy when the world is full of people without even food to eat. You're missing the point I was making, no matter what, ditching out on responsibilites placed on me is not an option so something like bk will never be considered. I didn't know asking people to be responsible for themselves or anything that involved them no matter how extreme or unfortunate is 'being cruel'.

-- nobody (nothing@nowhere.no), June 30, 2001.

Karen, thank you dear, you have helped immensely! it just shows again how my womanly instincts are right on the money. Huby was checking into a credit negotiation company which advertises here on the web... I felt in my bones it wasnt quite on the level... turns out the fine print would have allowed us only 5 days to reconcider our agreement before it would be binding.. no out after that, no matter how bad they turn out to be... lots of other things that bothered me. But hubby says now, after many days of thinking it over, that I was right, they were amateurish and non-professional. It scared me to trust them with our financial matters.

I was constantly urging him to go find a bankruptcy attorney to talk to. He finally did go and seek advise from one, on this credit negotiation company. The attorney's opinion simply reflected what my intuition had been telling me all along. Now the hubby is asking me if my intuition is telling me that bankruptcy is the right thing, and if I feel we should stick with this lawyer. Now I am squirming, because I dont want to make a mistake in my intuition. lol But yes, I do feel RIGHT about this. And I am sorry for all you that feel it is wrong to ask for forgiveness.

Karen, My little girl asks me if we are poor. I tell her that we are rich in ways that money cannot buy. We have peace in our hearts with God. We have a happy, loving family, and a daddy that is gentle and kind. We have good neighbors and a loving, supportive church. We have enough food to eat and enough to wear to keep ourselves warm. We have kitties for her to cuddle, and a swing in the tree. We have been blessed so very very much!

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

I will say this: I have struggled all my life, hit some tough times and it was the wisdom of a dear friend who I guess turned me back to my "homesteading roots." My father struggled, lived through the depression times and even though he eventually rose above it he still had a farm. Growing up I hated it. I thought it was stupid to grow your own vegetables, raise your own meat, etc. I couldn't wait to leave home and go to college and live in the city. Boy.... life was going to be soooo easy I figured. I really didn't want to live in the country again, until I had children and realized the city was not a good place to raise my sons the way I felt was wholesome. But I didn't have a supportive partner. Sooo..... I ultimately ended up divorced with 2 sons to raise.

I had to take on all the debts and raise them. I cried a lot, struggled but I worked 2 jobs and went to college full time and prayed to get through. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. I grew up in a hurry. But in the process I returned to the country life I despised growing up. Then I remarried and life was better, but still there were hurddles to jump through. Economics in NYS 10 yrs ago were awful... and we were faced with some of the roughest times I can recall. Thats when my dear friend and then neighbor mentioned self-sufficiency. I just looked at her... firgured I wasn't capable, etc. But we did it, we raised our own meat, grew a garden, we didn't have to buy much except for feed for the animals and paper products. I read a lot of Countrysides and Carla Emory's book. We survived until I finished graduate school and I got my big career break in Maryland. Had to move. I hated leaving home, was resentful, but it made me stronger. That was 8 years ago. Now we are in Arkansas and I am finally appreciative of how hard we worked and what we have.

I bought a farm in VA and to make it there we lived without going into debt, had to live without electricity for 2 and a half yrs but we survived. I sure do miss that battery operated t-v too! Heck, I got so desperate at Christmas I bought battery operated Christmas lights.... now I was on a roll:):) I refused to go into debt to get a fancy place to live. We paid for everything in cash and still try to. We became hardcore homesteaders and snubbed credit except for the truck loan. That was our choice.

I am not going to say we were able to avoid BK because it never got to that point, guess we just didn't feel we had to do that, we worked hard and were blessed with the health to do it. I guess going Bk is a personal decision that sometimes for some folks has to be. But really working on being self-sufficient is the key to avoiding such situations. If one can depend less on the system and more upon themselves then they are not as vunerable to the pitfalls of debt. Thats where Countryside magazine comes in... to help folks reach their goals of being as self-sufficient as possible. Avoiding the traps of debt. I used to like reading the Intentional Peasant articles. He would really give a lot of good insight into the system and lived self-sufficient as possible in the middle of Baltimore. What ever happened to him anyways?

And I humbly apologize to Nobody for missing your point.... Good luck and I'll be praying for you to get through it.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

Thanks for your prayers Bernice. I can really relate to what you said about growing up on a farm. I hated it with a passion as a kid even though I lived on a 70 acre farm with woods, creeks, plenty of fruit trees and berries and everything a homesteader could ask for. I was also the man of the house at age 12 on so I pretty much ran the show there which I now realize was an opportunity I did not capitalize on like I could have. Shortly after I left when I was 18, the farm was gone and so was what family I had. It's been 17 years since then, most of that time spent living in urban surroundings. It took me nearly 10 years to realize it was the best experience I ever had and I wouldn't trade those years on the farm for anything now.

-- nobody (nothing@nowhere.no), July 01, 2001.

You said you were religious. Have you asked your church for help? Where do the offerings go that is more important than your family? Seems to me that if the religious church going people on this site would send their contribution for next Sundays service to you, it would be better served. If God is to busy to help, why can't his children?

-- Kelly Miller (kellys_plants@hotmail.com), July 01, 2001.

People experience the same thing in different ways.

Bankruptcy has its origin in the Year of Jubilee, which is descibed in the 25th Chapter of Leviticus. A God who forgives and redeems asked His people to do the same. As with many of the things God asked, many people tried to avoid complying.

Perhaps your bankruptcy will "haunt" you for years. Of course, some people are obtain to obtain bank (not credit card) loans within a year of filing bankruptcy. This is usually a surprise to many. Banks have a very simple goal, they want to get the amount they expect when they expect it. IF, a person has good income, if a person's other debts are discharged, and if a person cannot file bankruptcy for seven years, then many banks see this person as a good risk.

As has previously been stated, bankruptcy should bring great harm to your credit rating, as it is probably allready shot to hell.

Tell IRS to stop contacting you by phone. Do not give them bank information or they will seize assets. File bankruptcy before they file a lien.

Tell all your creditors that you are invoking your rights under the Fair Debts Collection Act and to contact you only in writing.

As Karen said Chapter 7 will generally discarge tax debts filed and assessed more than 3 years. Chapter 13 can get you a discharge from more recent tax debts. Chapter 13 is called a "Cramdown" and there is good reason for using that term.

As Karen further said, the law is changing. Contact a bankruptcy attorney immediately. Most attorneys do not practice bankruptcy law.

As you can see, there are a lot of strong opinions about what others should or should not do. I'm just 54, but so far I haven't met anyone who didn't need some type of forgiveness.

-- paul (primrose@centex.net), July 02, 2001.

Well, hubby just walked by and said he is filing TODAY. After the heart palpitations, I sat back and said, thank you God. He just went over his income form this year and said no wonder it is going so badly. We racked up the debt on a steady and climbing 45K income, and this year he has only gotten in 13K so far. -and trying to pay for back taxes and health problems at the same time! Its no wonder we are going under. Thanks for all the info, everyone. Even those who judged us harshly. That was also rather educational. I hope I learned from it how to respond to others.

To quote a song recently penned by a friend: "All I have to give was crafted by Your hand of Grace, May my heart be ever humble, in its rightful place."

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), July 02, 2001.

Smackerel,

I wish you well on this one. One of my family member's recently filed for bankruptcy (Chapter 7) and had it discharged. Others who recommended getting a lawyer who *only* deals with bankruptcy are right - that's the best way to go, otherwise you could really get yourself in hot water.

Also, don't delay. Not only will the new law turn almost every case into a Chapter 13, but they will also double the cost of getting a bankruptcy. Our lawyer said that it could cost almost $2,000 when the new law goes into effect!

Anyway, our family's story:

My parents divorced after 25+ years. My mother moved out into an apartment, a decent one in a low crime-rate area running $600+/month. Even with the aid of other family members, the bills for getting re-started ran pretty high.

Later, she was able to buy a house for the same amount she had been paying for rent. Again, the bills ran high with home repairs and upkeep taking up most of it.

I then moved in to help pay bills, and helped her start up an at-home part-time job to help ends meet. We started to make progess on cutting down the debt when we were hit by a series of disasters: Mom's second job slowed *way* down, I almost lost my job - I quickly relocated to another, but the transportation costs skyrocketed, thirdly, we were on a trip to see our relatives when the car's engine/radiator exploded (Budget Rent-A-Car cheated on their warrenty, we noticed the problem before the warrenty was to expire, they told us "It's just a tiny radiator leak, come back in 10,000 miles."). The final cost for the car repair was $2600.

My Mom is nearing 60, has had surgery for carpel tunnel and tendonitis in both wrists and elbows, yet she kept working two jobs. I worked hard with overtime, even though I've got tendonitis myself. Our close family didn't have the money to help either.

Finally, it came to a point where we could do no more. Mom was over $1,000 a month in debt beyond her income. She had been juggling bills for over 1 year, once the 2nd job slowed down. We'd been trying (and are still trying) to find another 2nd job that has a steadier income - it's not always that easy for a part-time medical transcriptionist.

Anyway, she went and filed for bankruptcy. It was fairly cut and dry, especially with a good lawyer, who luckily wasn't a slimeball like some can be. (This is why it's so important to get someone who specializes in Chapter 7/Chapter 13 for personal bankruptcies - that way you get the most for your money.)

We're still working our way out of our mess, trying to keep our heads above water. Yes, I'm paying higher credit card rates because of people declaring bankruptcy, but I don't blame it on those people - not all of those who declare are scum. Some, like my Mom, have just had a bad string of luck and need a break so they have a chance.

I blame most of it on the blood-sucking credit card companies who are causing their own problems. Their desire for the highest profit is pushing those who are on the edge, over. Did you know that some credit card companies compute their interest based on TWO months' balances? Now, is *that* fair?

My Mom didn't go out and buy a fancy car or boat, didn't go out and buy new clothes (heck, her clothes average about 7 years old!) or buy tons of jewelry. Her house is only valued at $72,000. The cost of the divorce, upkeep of an older house, a major car repair and a "lost" job is all it takes, people...

For those who think otherwise, I used to think just like you. But when it hits you, then you begin to realize that it was just pride, and now you need mercy, just like the others did. Don't let pride get in your way and ruin your life. Don't let pride ruin your loved ones' lives.

-- Private for the moment (not@right.now.pls), July 02, 2001.

yup, make sure you get a good lawyer so "you can get the most for your money"- while you're in the process of screwing everyone else out of theirs. I see I'm beating my head against a brick wall with this, it has nothing to do with pride. It's about accountability and responsibility, 2 things our society loses more of every day. I guess someone put those credit cards into peoples hands and forced them to spend the money. I realize theres a place for bk but not for things like credit card debt or irresponsibility. Most personal bk I've seen is due to credit cards, buying things they could have lived without and most are under 30k debt. Now tell me that they couldn't sell some of their things, work extra a few years and pay that debt off, even if it took 10 years. Everyone I ever saw go bk still lived decent lives, still blew money on things they could have survived without. All they learned was how easy it was to ditch out on their own makings. If credit cards didn't exist, you'd find a way to survive without that easy money. If bk didn't exist, you'd find a way to pay those debts.

-- somebody (something@somewhere.com), July 02, 2001.

Hey, Somebody,I think you need your head beat agianst a brick wall to wake you up! With any luck at all you will find yourself in the same boat. Then we'll see how fast you change your tune. Spike

-- Spike (spike@hotmail.com), July 02, 2001.

Harsh criticism of others is indicative of harsh personal criticism. Life is short. May each of us see all the good that is in others, and may we know that we too are good.

-- paul (wprimeroselane@msn.com), July 03, 2001.

hey Spike, you just don't get it and please realize I am not being critical of anyone. As far as being in the same boat.. I'm single with 2 young kids, have no other family. I have about 1 1/2 months income in savings. I've already lost most liquid assets I had through my wifes illness and now she's been gone over 2 years. What I have left isn't worth much at all. I'm 25k in debt, 4k of that credit card at now 27% interest. Most of the rest from a bad margined investment that the brokerage sold at a loss and stuck me with a big margin call because they could and I entered into the agreement that let them. Just as people enter into agreements with the credit card companies. Interest alone is costing me over $300 a month like I said earlier in this thread. I recently became unemployed. When I find another job the most I can expect to make is about 25-30k a year if that and am also restricted in job opportunities due to a back injury and degenerative disc disease. So as you can see, my situation is very comparable to these bk stories. Given my best possible scenario it'll take me many years to get out of debt. I'll have to sacrifice many things along the way. I'll have to work more and harder. But you know what? It's my problem, not anyone elses and I'm not about to put it on anyone else, not even these huge corporations everyone likes to blame. Nobody forced this problem on to me, just as I said that nobody is forced to use credit cards or to spend more than what they make. Our society has gotten so much worse over the years due to the lack of accountability and responsibility in so many things. Go ahead and be a part of that decline if you want. I won't. Sorry you don't understand. I wonder how you'd feel if you were on the other end of bk, being the person screwed out of money owed.

-- somebody (something@somewhere.com), July 03, 2001.

I gave a harsh answer at first and after re-reading the original post realize I was actually kind or taken.

In order to lose $40K this family had to have $40/k to lose. If I read the original post correctly, losing this $40K caused them to charge $25K (which they knew they not have) for comfort items. In a later post they say they live in the cheapest house they can find.

None of this goes together. If I have only $40K in the bank I would never play with it. They claim they lost $30K in a real estate deal - how? If they put the $30K down as a down payment there must be paperwork to back this up. Regarding the business deal which turned out to be fraud and cost them $10K, find the person - have them arrested and sue them to get your money back

I have decided this entire post is a fraud to get everyone upset at each other. And it has worked.

If this is a true situation, they want all us to say "it's OK, we understand". You burned or spent all your allowance and now you want more. Well ... payday is along way off so do without.

-- Viv in TX (kudzu1@webtv.net), July 03, 2001.

This is a hot topic. 99.9% express their views. Pro or con. Smackerel....This is a road you and your husband must go alone. No body else's buisness. If you choose Bankruptcy..... it's tool ....use it wisely. The most important things are your family .

-- Nathan and Sherry Harris (barnyard_mini@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

Viv in Tx, I am surprised.. no I am not. There is so much judgementalness in here that nothing surprises me anymore. Fact is, the money we lost in Real Estate was back when we bought a house privately from an aquaintance, and not through the bank. We bought it for a little down, and some every month. While we were paying on it, we were doing some work on it. Counting the time my hubby took off work to work on this house, plus supplies, plus the money we put into the downpayment, plus the monthly payments, it added up to about $20,000. When we went to sell it, we put it on the market and it didnt move. We waited quite a while and got desperate because the money was getting very tight, due to lack of earlier income, while doing that work on it. Finally, just to get rid of the monthly payments, we had to let it go, and it brought only enough to pay off the balance of the private mortgage. I know, it sounds unbelievable, but it happened. The other $20K we lost was on the sale of our own house. We had it on the market for well over a year, and had to lower the price $15K less than market value. Then just before closing, the well went dry and we had to do some major repairs. All told, the Real Estate losses amounted to about $40K. And it wasnt money we had laying around in the bank.

Admittedly, the credit card debt began as a fling. My hubby felt he absolutely had to get out and go on a vacation or lose his marbles. It was a rather stupid thing to do, I know, to spend $2K on a vacation we didnt have the money in hand for. But somehow, the easy money being thrown at us by the credit card companies began to be used for actual living expences. A bill here and a bill there that the money in the bank didnt cover... and we would work hard at paying those credit cards down, but then the rates would go up, and each payment became higher and higher. Eventually, all we could do was maintain the debt by paying the minimum each month.

I agree, we didnt use good foresight and good money management over the past 6 years. We regret it terribly. and we look back to the good old days, before we ever owned a credit card. We lived totally debt free! For 12 years! I know we can do it again. But right now, everything is crashing down around us. It just seems the indebtedness has a momentum of its own, and we cant keep it from steamrolling right over us.

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

And that bad investment... Have you ever heard of Greater Ministries, based in Tampa, Florida? It has been on national news how the Ponzi scheme came crashing down, the perpetrators are in jail, and many many people have been bankrupted by it. The money has been laundered overseas.. almost totally gone.

-- smackerel of honey (smackerel@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

I am sorry but your story does not add up.

#1 - You bought a house from a private person (no problem if it was done with legal paperwork). You invested time and money in fixing it up - normal home ownership. You sold it for enough to pay what you owed on it. This debt would be -0-.

#2 - You owned another home at the same time (?). You sold this home, and after well repairs and market reduction lost $20K which would, I belive, be tax deductable as a loss.

#3 - You "donated" (?) $10K to a ministry in FL. No, I have never heard of them but that means nothing. Apparently many people were taken by them. This $10K would be tax deductible as a charity donation or perhaps a loss. When did you make this donation? Was it before, during or after the $20K loss on your second home?

You, and others, must stop blaming the Credit Card Companies for your problems. Personally, we gave up credit years ago after seeing our statement reach the $5000 mark at 9% interest. It did not take long for us to realize WE had a problem. Us, not the cc co. Credit only works if you can pay it off every month. We still get pre-approved credit applications and every one has paperwork attached telling the interest rate. Some are tied to the prime rate and will vary but most are fixed.

Credit addiction is like drinking or drugs. Unless the person doing the abusing admits they have a problem, they will never get well. The company and the guy selling the beer are only making a living, they does not open your mouth and pour it down your throat.

-- Viv in TX (kudzu1@webtv.net), July 03, 2001.

Hey Smackerel..... Before you give Viv any more infomation....Make sure she is going going to cut you in on the royalties from the new math book she must be writing........."It Don't Add UP!"

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (bardyard_mini@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

Sorry if I came off as judgemental. I don't mean to sound critical. You asked for opinions and related experiences, sorry some don't like them. I was just trying to make a few points and believe me, I can fully relate to how it feels to be saddled with debt and how the situation 'seems impossible'. As far as losses, they're gone and have nothing to do with current debt or decision to file bankruptcy. My loss of savings over the past 4 years was over 50k. My lifes savings. Not even counting other asset losses. Wiped out mostly by my exwifes mental illness she developed and my foolish decision to stand by her through over 2 years of reckless insanity. That money is gone forever. You bet it sucks, it was my security and future for my kids. But nothing will bring it back. All it affects now is I came out with about 38k loss to apply to future taxes(at 3k cap per year so I'm told). I still owe the IRS a bit also. It doesn't mean anything in regards to the 25k(about 20% credit card) debt I now have. I don't see what your losses have to do with your current debt either. What's lost is lost and has no bearing whatsoever in whether you pay or ditch out on your current debts. The point I was trying to make is it appears you also have 25k debt or so you stated. Are you saying that you can't pay that off over the next 10 years? Two adults together can't work that out? I mean it's not like you are talking about 100s of 1000s of dollars in medical expenses here. Did you try to work out something with these creditors or roll it all into a consolidation loan at lower interest? Most creditors would rather work a deal than have to charge it off 100%. Did you even try that? Alot of creditors will accept 50% before it goes to bankruptcy. Did you try that? It sounds like you don't want to pay anything. Have you sold any of your possessions to pay these debts? Surely somewhere along the way to racking up 25k on credit you realized it had to be paid back, or maybe you just figured when you got to this point you'd just ditch out with bankruptcy. It sure seems that way from everything said. How come you don't work and let your laid up husband stay at home with the kids? 2 adults both at home, kids or not that is alot of free time wasted. I'd work 2 fulltime jobs and then some if I had someone to be here for my kids while I was gone(they're only 6 and 8). Any volunteers? ;) I'd give anything to have another adult in my situation to free me up to work more. I have a permanent back injury but I'll still gladly work as much as I can and work around it somehow. This year I've made about 10k so far. Most of that has gone to 900+ month rent(another obligation I entered into that I didn't ditch out on just because of expected income that didn't work out afterwards) I've made it through some tight months by selling some of the possessions I had from when times were better. Had to do that just last week to fix my car that broke down. Not much left now. I take no government assistance even though I could. Myself and my 2 kids don't live bad at all really. I just don't spend money on things many people take for granted like cable tv, junk food, video games, etc, etc. We go out every weekend to the mountains or beach where it doesn't cost me anything other than a few dollars gas to get there and they have a great time. My kids are not deprived whatsoever. The whole point I've tried to make besides the fact that credit card companies don't force people to spend is this- cmon now buck up, sell some stuff off and live up to the obligations you entered into regardless of unexpected misfortune. At least try harder before you ditch out on your obligations.

-- somebody (something@somewhere.com), July 03, 2001.

Greater Ministries was a 'double your money' get rich quick by doing nothing scheme. (anything that sounds too good to be true...is) here's a bunch of news clippings if anyone wants to be entertained.

http://www.tampatrib.com/news99/ministry.htm

-- somebody (something@somewhere.com), July 03, 2001.

Yo, Smackeral, looks like you got a good heavy dose of that fine Christian morality mentioned so often by so many here & having said that, I can expect to have folks try & burn me at the cyber stake in the town square as we speak. Funny how folks seem to forget what they say they believe in, eh? Well, Ok, go get the matches folks, but give the lady a BREAK. And consider YOURSELVES in HER circumstances before you start throwing rocks, eh? Just a thought...

NOW, about your problem - sounds like something I was looking at & didn't like at all. Don't know what time frame you have, but here's a thought. No, I'm not a lawyer, but this is working for me... You know all those offers for credit cards you get with the introductary % at not much for however many months? Well, take 'em up on it! Switch your stratospheric interest rates for something decent for as long as you can, then your payment goes on principle, not interest, eh? Ok, so you may have to do it again in 3 or 6 or whatever months, so what? Keep REAL good track of what's going on & deal with it. Doesn't make sense to pay for real high interest, then because the payment is late, pay for late fees, then because it's been a problem, getting your interest rate jacked up past Orion, eh? So... try it the other way - takes about a month for one credit card debt to be taken over by another, so change over however many you need to, say Visa, MC, whichever store cards, etc etc etc.

Make a deal with the IRS person - they'll take not much steadily rather than have you in the position where you can give them nothing. Even the IRS doesn't have debtor's prison.

I worked for a VERY short time in a "debt factory" which was a 3rd party collections agency. It was a 2nd job & I really needed $$ & never hated anything like that swill. Learned a LOT. Those people will say ANYTHING to you to get $$ from ya & I talked to people all over the country who were, just because someone got sick, about to loose or had lost everything they had. Frightening situation, but even more so because of it being so widespread. Got my attention.

You're going to have to kiss the $30k in real estate & $10k in investments that went south adios, but the $25k is something you can deal with. See what you can do to break it down into little pieces & just rearrange it, if you can. Financial advisors don't work for free, neither do bankers, etc, so if you can do it on your own, all the better. Can understand the idea about homescooling, but maybe your time could be better spent working out of the home trying to put down the debt for a year or 2 to save your family? It's a question, you know? Something to think about. Even part time would help, when the kids were in school. Just a thought.

Good luck, kiddo, keep the faith, you know?............Kt.

-- K-K-K-Katie (yarnspinerkt@hootmail.com), July 10, 2001.

I wasn't gonna post on this matter anymore but I can't resist now ; ) Being accountable and responsible for your own actions is not exclusively reserved for Christians. In fact, in all my comments I didn't bring religion into any of it but I sure recall quite a few posts invoking God and the Bible as justification to go bankrupt and screw lenders out of money borrowed from them. You made a very vaild point though. Past losses have nothing at all to do with current debt load and 25k debt is managable for 2 adults even if it takes many years. 2 adults, neither working, kids or no kids, as someone else said, doesn't add up. A year of public school isn't going to do any damage to anyone or have the laid up husband take that over while the mother goes out and works. Work 2 jobs and you'd pay that 25k off in a year. It's all about the willingness to live up to and face your own makings.

-- somebody (something@somewhere.com), July 10, 2001.

Don't jump too quickly into transferring balances to lower interest cards. Many have small print that affect the interest on balance transfers versus new purchases. Also the 'grace period' is often different. I'm one of those odd ducks who reads the fine print...which is why i keep a $0 balance.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), July 10, 2001.

yes, and once you've gotten yourself into a bad situation you won't find any credit card company willing to do that. That's something you need to do before it gets out of hand. Your best shot thereafter is a bank consolidation loan secured with collateral. And if all that fails, like it has done with me, you just deal with it.

-- somebody (something@somewhere.com), July 10, 2001.

Smackerel, the bible encourages christians to "lend, hoping for nothing again." (Now, of course, it doesnt say to "borrow, hoping never to pay back.") But yet, concerning what it DOES say there, I dont see any rich christians preaching that message. I find true christian compassion for the poor almost nonexistant in American christian churches.

It seems you were living as most Americans, using credit cards too much, but being dependant on the level of your present income holding steady or going higher in the future. As you have found out, it just doesnt work that way. Many people find themselves in your shoes, not having spent the money on luxuries, but just having lived unwisely. God extends forgiveness for sins, why should we not extend forgiveness as a christian body for financial imprudence?

In fact, the American "Christian" church treats the poor horribly, with social strata barriers, false "tithe" teaching, non-scriptural bankruptcy teaching, and flat out humiliation of anyone who acks for help. Ive been down there. I know what it is.

Pick up your head. Jesus knows your circumstances, and he understands if you cant help yourself anymore. Thats who he came to forgive and help. In fact, through this, your relationship with Him can be greatly strengthened. You know that whose who are forgiven little love little. You are experiencing forgivenness of much. God forgives even total bankruptcy. You are loved much.

Have you ever noticed that it is those who have the crippled child, the bankruptcy, the catastrophic illness, who are the most compassionate, the most magnetic, the most loving people? God is working even in this for you.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 11, 2001.

Has anyone ever heard of the court forgiving the 2nd mortgage on your home and turning it from a secure debt to an unsecure debt when filing if you are way over your head for a Chapter 7?

-- Juan Alvarado (editsuite2000@yahoo.com), October 04, 2001.

Well, I see this meeting of the Harper Valley PTA is well underway and going about its usual course of business.

Too bad, I was hoping for something better. One day, perhaps.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), October 04, 2001.

OK here it is, I am looking at bk myself BUT before going to those extreems I am doing everything in my power to better my buisness. For example: I have a friend of mine that is on the web trying to find me an investor or a partner. I own a plating and polishing company and I want to save it!! Life can really suck sometimes but that's life and we must deal with it the best way we can and for me filing bk isn't it. I want to pay my bills and keep my buisness going but if it doesn't work than so be it. Meanwhile back on the farm I WILL by the grace of God find someone to help me, because I am trying!!! I don't know if this helps you any, but try it!! Call someone that might be interested in investing in your buisness!!!!

frustated but determined

-- Ernest Rich Jr. (richjr3449@aol.com), October 29, 2001.

I haven't an answer, but a problem. If anyone could answer this, I would be so grateful:

To begin with, I am not a student trying to file bankruptcy before I even graduate, or a rich person defaulting just for the heck of it. I went to what was advertised as a very good art school, made the dean's list twice - then found out, when I graduated, that I had very few prospects for employment. One reason is that this school taught virtually nothing about computers - and ironically, every one of the job offers its career services dept. sent me demanded computer skills of some sort. Last year this once-prestigious art school barely achieved accreditation. I graduated from it in 1993. Since then I've struggled in minimum-wage jobs, paying on the loans (now owned by Sallie Mae) when I could. When I couldn't and was about to go under, I used forbearances and deferments. During all this time the debt, of course, grew. I know owe over $34,000. I am at the end of forbearances, and deferments, and frankly I'm stumped as what to do next. I've looked into Direct Loan in an effort to lower my monthly payments, but the amount it demands is still too high for me to manage.

I didn't pay my loans not because I didn't want to, but because I couldn't. Bankruptcy never even occured to me before, because I thought it was shameful. But I am nearly 50 years old and I don't see any way, barring a miracle, that I will ever be able to pay that loan back. Bottom line: I know that new bankruptcy laws forbid discharging student loans under bankruptcy - but there is a proviso that takes into account extreme hardship. Is there a chance for me under that proviso? I live in the state of Kansas, if that's any help.

I'd greatly appreciate any insights you could offer. Thanks so much.

J.M.

-- J.L. Marks (pettifogg@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.