What do you think about the McVeigh execution?

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2001

Answers

The McVeigh execution kinda put this into everyone's face. This has being going on for so long, its touched everyone. I think the death penalty is a no-win situation. I use to be pre-med going into forensics so I've seen a few execution photos. No, its not pretty. You can bleed profusely during electrocutions, you spasm, foam, and choke during gasing, and lethal injections..imagine fighting that sleep because you know you'll never wake back up. that doesn't include a moralistic view. No matter who it is, they are a human. No one deserves to have to count down the days, hours, and minutes until they are going to die. No one deserves to never be forgiven. Then again, the legal argument. The death penalty is not about vengence, its punishment. Its not a deterant, it is saying if you do this then this is what is going to happen. Ted Bundy, Otis O'Toole, Gein..they are the poster children for the death penalty. I think a lady who was on CNN said it best: "The only things thats changed is now there are 169 victims." Thats where I stand.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2001

Agreed. You don't fight fire with fire... you don't teach others not to kill by killing. Executing Timothy McVeigh isn't going to bring back a one of those 168 people. It's probably not going to ease any pain, and if you think it will, I think that's rather sick. He inflicts a lifetime of suffering onto the families of those people, and the government lets him out of his torment by killing him. Doesn't quite add up. They gave him exactly what he wanted... an expensive suicide.

I was rather apalled at the media reports, giving a play by play of the execution, including descriptions of how he reacted to the drugs. I about threw up. They guy was dying for chrissakes, and I find the fact that they had to share the details rather gory. That bothered me. What he did was terrible, but he was still a human being, and I know I wouldn't want someone talking about how I looked when I died...

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2001

I know I will probably take alot of heat for this but here is my view on it. Fist of all alot of the 168 victims were children that in itself merits the punishment he got. Just for one minute try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who lost loved ones husbands, wives and children and they are supposed to have compassion for poor Mc Veigh who is waiting to be put to death, I am sorry but in my opinion when he planned the bombing of that building he knew he was gonna get caught and therefore knew the punishment that was awaiting him. He needed to be a exemple for the rest of the world that that kind of sick shit will have serious punishment directed right at you if you decide to take a human life. Think of all the people who did not die right away who were trapped in there after it exploded. Anyways I could go on and on for a long time about a ton of reasons why he needed to get the death penalty. I will say this I am not for the death penalty in every case but I think that sick twisted S.O.B deserved what he got and it was a long time coming. That being said I do believe some people can truly express regret and change their life and become a good person butnobody can tell me that Timothy Mc Veigh was such person.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2001

On this one, I agree with Katie.

Actually, I guess I'm somewhat thantaphobic so it doesn't work very well. I had dreams where the whole word seems small and blah blah blah, after you die what happens...because despite all your beliefs/convictions/ways of life, no one really knows what's going on after your heart stops. I'm pro-life. In all ways. I agree with the piece of the Constitution that grants every citizen the right to life; if they had to pull a Charles Manson and shoot him down every single time he comes up for parole (should the time have arisen), in fact...I would've felt better knowing that he didn't get what he wanted. Or something like that.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2001

Brigitte: It wasn't a punishment to him, though. It's exactly what he wanted.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2001

Granted, McVeigh is a little bit nuts, but as much as a lot of people don't want to admit it, he DID have a good point. Read this short essay he wrote.

http://www.kwtv.com/news/bombing/mcveigh-essay.htm

I like what Katie said about the rest of the world laughing at us; it's true, it's just like when we get all upset because Singapore caned some dumbass American. If that doesn't seem civilized to us (because it isn't), just think about what they think in other countries without the death penalty (who probably don't like us to begin with). Not that we should stop executing people because other countries think it's bad, I'm just saying they think that for an excellent reason.

-dan

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

The last line of the essay is also a good argument against the death penalty, although I don't think that's what he was referring to specifically.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I don't think Tim McVeigh should of been excecuted for 2 reasons. One: yes, it was exactly what he wanted so it wasn't much of a punishment. Two: Think of all the things we as a society could learn from him. I mean, he isn't a human void of any feelings. He did what he did because he felt so strongly about something. Now, how in our modern society does someone degrade so far and become so dissilluioned with the government that they resort to the methods he did. He isn't an alien... there must be thousands of people out there that have similar thoughts. I mean, sure someone probably did a profile on him.. but if he was still around in say 15 years, think of all the information we could get out of him. I think the psycological information would be priceless. He is NOT alone in his thoughts, and perhaps he could give us insite on warning signs etc. I'm not going to give the disclaimers about how he is horrible and what he did is wrong, because that's common sense. I just want to pointout that perhaps he would of been more useful in preventing another bombing or whatever if he was alive.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

*lurks quietly and everyone knows why...*

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I fully support the death penalty, though not as it currently is now.....with reforms. I believe that there are things that people can do that strip away their rights....like felonies take away people's right to vote, murder (and rape, imho) take away people's right to live. I'm an odd Green, I know, but I have never been able to be swayed on this one.

As for McVeigh, good riddance. The world does not need him in it, other than as fertilizer.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Damn right there are other people out there with similar thoughts. Maybe most of them don't take it to the extreme, but it's possible there are some who do. Those people will definitely see him as a martryr and glorify what he did -- which could very well lead someone else to follow in his footsteps, finish what he started, etc. Look at how many people have glorified Columbine and shot up their own school, stuff like that.

There are a lot of things that people don't want to admit about McVeigh. First off, he was damn intelligent. You might say that if he was so smart, how'd he manage to get caught? Well, I personally don't believe for a second that he wanted to get away with it. The man's getaway car had no license plates and he was carrying an unregistered gun -- you don't mastermind a bombing and then do something outright stupid like that. Which brings me to the second thing: He had balls. You have to at least admit that much. It takes real balls to believe in something so much that you'll go through all that crap and just not even give a damn if you die for it. And that's almost admirable in a (sick) way -- I mean, if you strip away everything else and just look at that aspect of it. Obviously I don't think it's admirable to blow up a building and kill people. But you know what I mean.

I hate how people try and say that killing McVeigh will serve as a deterrent to other people who might be thinking of the same thing. Doubtful. You get someone else who just doesn't give a damn if they die, as long as they get their point across -- there's nothing you can do. Which is really scary, if you think about it.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

katie, you are scaring me. have you ever seen my page? are you aware that you think pretty similar to me about this all?

the only major difference is you call him a bastard and i call him a god and because of that i'm looked as a psycho. that's sorta sad. or weird. something.

not that it matters to you much... but you're quickly making up for.. err, everything else lately..

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Katie wrote:
There are a lot of things that people don't want to admit about McVeigh. First off, he was damn intelligent. You might say that if he was so smart, how'd he manage to get caught? Well, I personally don't believe for a second that he wanted to get away with it.

And really, of *course* he didn't want to get caught. Does everyone remember what the media did that day? They assumed *Middle Eastern terrorists* had bombed the building. The most racist shit ever. They had no reason to think that. McVeigh didn't just want the bombing to happen and for the media to assume it was middle eastern terrorists and for him to go on with life. He wanted to make a point. He wanted the country to think about what happened at Waco and the government and to listen to what he had to say.

Our legal system is about punishment. I don't think this is how it should be. I don't think anyone should be punished for anything. When people are violent, I think they should be removed from the situation in which they can harm more people. I do not think it is our job to decide who "deserves" to live. I think that's a meaningless concept, anyway.. deserving something.. We punished McVeigh by taking his life; it doesn't matter what he thought about it, it was our intent. We were judging whether he was "good" enough to continue living. But we also punished him by refusing to listen to him. I can't say I think anyone "deserves" that.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Who is Tim McVeigh to play God? Who is Tim McVeigh to take the lives of so many innocent people for the good of "his cause". Tim McVeigh should have been destroyed, destroyed in the most un-imaginable way known to man.
Am I bitter? No, but you can't kill TM 168 times. Closure is bullshit. TM was a sperm that matured for no reason other than to destroy what he didn't like about society. We should NOT applaud that, we should never acknowledge what "points" he may have had. Charles Manson had some "good points" according to some, but are those "points" worthy enough to calm the families of those that lost because of his hellistic bombing and his godless acts of, well, satan. I'm not a religious person in any way, Jesus may have died for our sins, but the horror created by this man and what he did to literally millions of people, did nothing but cause a rift in society.
Maybe that's what he wanted, maybe fighting back was what this country was about, but whatever happened to peaceful protest.
I seriously doubt this is the type of revolt people like MLK preached about. TM deserves every brutal and distasteful thing he gets in hell, because no matter how many times he may have "tried" to repent, this man has no place on heaven, earth, and I'm sure the devil himself is ashamed to have such a man in the depth's of hell with him.

Death Penalty or not, TM needed to be eliminated from this realm, FUCK his livelyhood, FUCK his reasoning, FUCK HIM! Let him burn at the stake.

That's how I fucking feel, I had a relative die in that blast.
SO FUCK OFF TIM MCVEIGH!
Tim McVeigh, BURN WHEREVER YOU FEEL LIKE BURNING YOU HEARTLESS, SOUL-LESS, WORTHLESS BASTARD

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Jason or whatever.. dude, you do realize .. nevermind.. *sigh*.. your comments there speak for themself..

*smirks*

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I seriously doubt this is the type of revolt people like MLK preached about.

Well, considering he was preaching on nonviolence, I guess not. and...

Who is TM to play God?

Who is anyone to play God but God? He killed 168 people, that we know, but what justice does killing him do? It doesn't make him suffer, it doesn't make him go insane thinking about it, all it does is give him and death penalty advocates what they wanted. I don't praise TM, and I cannot see how any closure was given by seeing another man die regardless of who he is. So, yeah.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I have to say that I agree with the death penelty for McVeigh. The guy was guilty, no doubt about it, and I would rather have my tax money going towards something more useful than providing room and board for a mass murderer. Now he did say that if he know kids were in the building, he'd pick some place else to bomb, but does that make him a better bomber? As for punishment...I guess we could have cut 168 chunks out of him to make him pay, but I doubt the government would have gone for that.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

you know, i am a firm believer in the death penallty if for no other reason that i dont think some sick fucker should be living off of my tax dollars for the next sixty years. i would much rather give him an expensive death than pay for years of his life in a prison where he gets three meals a day, cable and visitation rights, etc. there is nothing that can ever convice me that this sick bastard deserves anything more than what he got...death on earth is nothing...but what he has to face beyond life is going to be exactly what he deserves. the government did justice making sure he sees his worthless soul for what it really is. if you dont like living in the united states, if you hate the government, get the fuck out. dont take the lives of 168 people who aren't a part of your fight because you think it will make a difference and because you think you're fighting for something worth fighting for. those people died for his selfishness and deserves nothing more to be rotting in the furthest depths of hell that he surely is in.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

dont take the lives of 168 people who aren't a part of your fight because you think it will make a difference and because you think you're fighting for something worth fighting for. those people died for his selfishness and deserves nothing more to be rotting in the furthest depths of hell that he surely is in.

Hmmm. Well, the US government has killed how many innocent people by fighting wars for the cause of the moment? Vietnam anyone?

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I thought we were talking about McVeigh? How does this have anything to do with Vietnam? You can't equate one sadistic bastard to a war...you're giving him way too much credit when you do that. He wasn't fighting a war, he was murdering 168 people.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Because it boils down to the exact same thing: killing people for a cause you believe is right. I'm not saying that makes what he did any better -- but the government does do the same exact thing. Just because what McVeigh did is "wrong" and what the US does is "right" doesn't make it two different things.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Well, it is kind of a "no-win" situation, as someone already mentioned here. But some sort of action needed to be taken, and no matter what you do, there will be people left unhappy.

Yes, Tim McVeigh said he wanted to die...but I also read an interview with him where he said that he was actually enjoying prison life. Why wouldn't he? Since he was such a high-profile prisoner, he was given his own cell, where he was fed three meals a day he didn't have to cook, and could watch cable that he didn't have to pay for. Except, of course, for the fact that he couldn't leave, he was having himself a little vacation.

So what happens? Do you keep him in a prison cell where he says he's enjoying himself...or kill him, as he says he wants? It's a paradox, where people will argue no matter what you do. But in this case, I support the decision to kill him. Think of all the money it would take to keep him in a prison for the rest of his life, for starters. This is not to say that money should be the sole factor in deciding, of course, but it's something. Think of how much money the country spends each year in maintaining such individuals each year.

Secondly, is what I consider the main reason - an eye for an eye. I know that many people will argue with me that two wrongs don't make a right, and I know that. However, the United States needs to take a stronger stance on justice. If you commit as serious a crime as Tim McVeigh, there is no "insanity defense" or "he's someone's big brother and someone's son, so we can't let his family suffer." I feel his family's pain - but I'm sure they well understand the pain of all those families who lost brothers and sons as well.

As we discuss this, I'm sure that many "copycats" are following the results of the case. Maybe seeing TM given a death sentence might deter some of them; maybe not. But it's worth a try. Many crimes in this country are committed simply because the perpetrators are laughing in the face of the judicial system; they know they'll get a slap on the wrist for their crime.

A few days ago, I remember reading in the news that Spain had protested Bush's visit, on the grounds of being anti-death penalty, which actually made me laugh. No matter what America does, other countries find fault. If we had let him live, other countries would ridicule America for being "too nice," a doormat, if you will, as has happened many times in the past. Now, we take a firm stance, and countries accuse us of being "too harsh." It is, indeed, a no-win situation.

This is just how I feel...agree or disagree with it, but I'm not going to get into any personal attacks with anyone over it.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Ooo, good point Katie. Yowza. Quite true.

Which I guess is why I'm anti-war...

Except in reality, I'm sort of not....I understand that sometimes (ok, often), war is necessary for a plethora of reasons, not limited to but including change, rights, economy, or prevention of worse things (ethnic cleansing, for example, leading to another Holocaust). War is a powerful tool in shaping the world.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

honestly, you present a lot to consider. but in the end, all i can say is that *my own* belief is that Tim McVeigh didn't do anything to further his cause, all he did was murder helpless victims. He was a coward, he bombed a building in the middle of a workday and ran away. If you dont like the government, fight the government, dont murder innocent people who aren't a part of your fight. He could have made a greater impact by sticking around for the next sixty or seventy years fighting for what he supposedly believed in, but no, he didn't do that, he thought he'd murder some people and "make a statement" which, in the end, caused the majority of the country to view him as a joke, as nothing more that a sadictic, heartless, sick bastard with little or no viable belief, morals or political views. few will take his "fight" for anything more than mass murder, because that's all it is. i'm not a huge "go united states government, kill whoever you want" type girl. but i am a proponent of punishment fitting the crime. the only punishment to fit the crime for mcveigh is the death penalty. the government didn't decide he was going to die, the american people did.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

"honestly, you present a lot to consider. but in the end, all i can say is that *my own* belief is that Tim McVeigh didn't do anything to further his cause, all he did was murder helpless victims."

Yeah he did, we're talking about him. aren't we?

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

He was a coward, he bombed a building in the middle of a workday and ran away. If you dont like the government, fight the government, dont murder innocent people who aren't a part of your fight.

That WAS his way of fighting the government. He knew damn well that sitting around handing out anti-government pamphlets and stuff like that was not going to get his message out on any sort of a national scale. He wanted to do something that fuck all was going to get people's attention. And he sure as hell did.

As for the coward thing... well, depends on how you look at it, I guess. You could say sitting in your house and believing strongly in something and wanting to change things but never actually doing anything is being more of a coward.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

you could say that. you could say anything...personally, i would have preferred he sat on his couch and did nothing. i'd have a lot more respect for him if he just spread his word in a way that didn't end the lives of people who in no way related to his fight. if sitting on my couch hating george w. bush or talking about it to my friends and family or peers or ranting about it on the internet makes me more of a coward than killing him, you know what, call me a coward all you want...tell me i am more a coward now than if i murdered him and ran away. i just dont agree that someone who murders innocent people should have the right to the very thing they took away. an eye for an eye, call it what you want...i call it justice.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

hail katie

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

"We just look like a bunch of assholes to the rest of the world. "

You think you'd be used to it by now!

Alright, I'll be serious...

I'm not just against capital punishment, I'm against punishment full stop. Nothing wrong with prison, you understand, but it's there for two reasons: To protect society from someone who is considered a threat to it and to, if possible, rehabilitate and educate someone who has turned to crime. It doesn't act as a deterant, because nobody comits crimes with the belief they'll be caught, and it should not be there for punishment. Because what is punishment anyway? Putting someone through something unpleasent because of our own grevances with what they have done. Sure, killing 168 people is quite a thing to have done, but to kill them out of vengence? To even put someone in prison for shoplifting out of vengence? Are we really that shallow as a society? Yep. Sad init. Punishment as a way of dealing with crime has been used for thousands of years, and it's painfully obvious it doesn't work.

From Katie's original entry: There's way too much room for error with things the way they are now.

I'm sorry, but I find the whole wishy-washy 'you might get the wrong person' anti-capital punishment (not that Katie subscribes to that, of course! I can see her objections are a lot deaper than that) almost as disgusting as the PRO-capital punishment stance. It really is irrelevent. Afterall, the possibility of punishing an innocent person is always a posibility, whether the sentence is death or not. Would it even matter if the wrong person was being put to death instead of McVeigh? The families of those killed would still have seen a person put to death who they believed killed their love-ones, and if giving them that 'peace of mind' was one of the main reasons for killing McVeigh, then that would have been perfectly adequate - They'd have got their vengence! The state killing someone for punishment is wrong, whether they commited the crime or not.

Oh, and just because I've got a Religious Studies exam tomorrow afternoon:

Secondly, is what I consider the main reason - an eye for an eye.

Actually, the 'eye for an eye' quote from the Bible is about the punishment not exceeding the crime. It means that someone should not be killed for stealing a loaf of bread. It certainly does not mean that someone should be killed for murder.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Perhaps my opinions may be to harsh for this "spoonfed, soft" American society where we think the justice system has executed innocent people and therefore there should be no death penalty.

There are some issues I won't touch, but this man was not of the same blood that flowed through our bodies.
Katie, you mention Vietnam for the killing of innocent people by the united states....WAR cannot draw comparisons. War between millions of people cannot be compared to the killing of innocent people by the "War" going on in one man's sick and twisted head.

I'm appauled that we'd pay taxes to keep such a man alive, a man that has no remorse, he smiles at what he's done, there is no proof of innocence, no proof of insanity, he premeditatedy destroyed 168 lives. For what? Because he doesn't buy into what our country is? Its not perfect, and I'm not that patriotic in a lot of ways, but don't go killing people because you can't afford to move out of the U.S.
Katie, you bring a point up about Vietnam, I'm sure you've seen this email forward before, but here it is again (and sorry to be flooding your board). Fwd: one of the "100 Women of the Century." > > > >Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century." > > > >Unfortunately many have forgotten and still countless others have never > >known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but > >specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam. Part of my > >conviction comes from personal exposure to those who suffered her > >attentions. > > > >The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry > >Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival > >School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a > >stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was > >ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient > >and humane > >treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged > >away. During the subsequent beating, He fell forward upon the camp > >commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. > >still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying > >days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. > > > >>From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 > >years in the "Hilton"-the first three of which he was "missing in action". > >His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the > >cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a peace delegation" visit. > >They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that > >they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN > >on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a > >cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little > >encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and > >"Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" > > > >Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of > >paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line > >and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, > >she turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the little pile of > >papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col.Carrigan was > >almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about >>day > >I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured > >by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for > >over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a > >cage in Cambodia, and one year in a black box" in Hanoi. My North > >Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, > >a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in > >the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was weighing > >approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's > >"war criminals." > > > >When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political > >officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I > >would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, > >which was far different from the treatment purported by the North > >Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as humane and lenient." Because of > >this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched > >arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a > >bamboo cane till my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to meet with Jane > >Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would > >be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me. This does not > >exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years of Great > >Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never include a > >traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots. > > > >There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's > >participation in blatant treason, is one of them. Please take the time to > >forward to as many people as you possibly > >can. It will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that > >we will never forget. Charles (Skip) Klingman > >Asst. Professor of Music > >Southwestern Oklahoma State University > >Weatherford, OK 73096 > >(580) 774-3219 FAX: (580) 774-3795
Katie, you want to know why vietnam vets despite Jane Fonda, a proven fact? I get so upset by the fact we (who weren't there, who weren't alive, my father fought in vietnam) can be so quick to rip on our own government.
If McVeigh kills 168 people without warning. Why shouldn't he be killed for his ruthless and total disregard for the law, common decency, and horrific remorseless act. He deserved (he'd dead, done and gone, his scars never will be though).

Many opinions on this page (not necessarily this topic) I laugh, have a good time with, but I cannot see any sympathy at McVeigh because of "the system".
My views on this topic are just that, but how does executing an innocent man (like some of us have brought up constantly) and killing a cold blooded heartless maniac like McVeigh have in common?

I'm off my soap box.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Sometimes I find it unbelievable that people find it easier to sympathize with someone like Timothy McVeigh, than to try and sympathize with the actual victims. I guess thats the kind of world we live in.

Personally, I'm far from being pro-government. Like alot of americans, I think that most of our politicians are swayed by money and greed than by trying to do what is in the best interest of ordinary people, like you and me. I also think that america sticks their collective noses in way too many worldy situations, that really have nothing to do with us. We fight wars that we dont need to fight, and we ignore our own people who are starving and homeless, but send aid to homeless and starving people in other countries.

I do, however, believe that its the governments responsibility to deal with those individuals that threaten the safety of the american people. Thats why we hire police, appoint judges and vote in elected officials. So that someone else will do the job we are too lazy to do. Most americans dont even want to do jury duty, let alone be there own police, decide how to punish criminals, and be responsible for deciding new legistlature. Of course, then these people make decisions and everyone begins complaining, and offering absolutely no solutions.

I've read alot about how unfair it is and how barbaric it is to even consider capital punishment, and more appaulingly read many of you putting McVeigh up on some sort of pedestal. However, I havent read many alternative ways of dealing with people like this. Sure, we can send him to jail and pay for his food, cable and internet connection, which most of our schools dont even have, I might add... and perhaps, you can all bake him his favorite muffins and send him greeting cards at christmas. Or, you can start offering up some suggestions on how to deal with the problem, you can start voting, you can start writing to your political leaders and you can start trying to change what you see as a problem.

Thats the nice part about America. You have the "right to free speech". You can have a strong feeling about something and try to do something about it, which doesnt always mean handing out pamphlets, sometimes it means getting off your ass and running for office. However, just because you feel strongly about something, doesnt mean you have the right to blow up a fucking building with innocent people in it. Do you feel that the people blowing up abortion clinics are "admirable" and "have balls"? Those people also feel very strongly about something, but dont have the right to harm innocent people.

I think people need to remember that there were 168 innocent people involved in this. They never hurt him, they never even knew him. And then one day they were sitting in their offices, playing with their toys and sucking their bottles and got murdered. Those are the people I'm thinking about, not how, gosh, the government was really bad to execute him. Of course, with the exception of Jason, I can also tell that most of you have never had someone close to you murdered. It changes you and your view on things.

As I said in the beginning, our government is far from perfect and far from "for the people". But, I also think that "the people" are far too content to sit by and let the government do what they want. Most people dont want to get involved. They just want to live their lives and let others handle the dirty work... and of course, complain after the fact. We drive by car accidents and stare, but dont call for help... we allow that neighbor next door to get beat up by her husband because we dont want trouble... and we let our government take care of business their way, because it takes too much time to actually start a campaign to reform things.

If you dont like capital punishment, then suggest an alternative... start a campaign... write a letter... rather than simply complaining about the problem and doing nothing to fix it.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Our government does the SAME EXACT SHIT Tim McVeigh did. Quite often. Why is no one outraged by that? Because we do it to brown people who live far away. Read that essay I posted a link to up above.

-dan

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

When was the last time the U.S. brutally killed 168 people on American soil and was remorseless about it?
When was the last time the U.S. sneak attacked its own people. Different agencies have had different agendas in the past. J. Edgar Hoover and the CIA had their eyes on Huey Newton and the Black Panthers. Yeah, that was our government, but that's more the exception than the rule.
You must live in a permanent conspiracy theory.
Shit happens every day in this country that our government is to blame for, but to say McVeigh was simply "standing up for his rights" and "should not be denied his constitutional rights" because our government does the same thing, that's a cop out. No more, no less.
I'm not a political person, I'd claim I'm an independent, but my views go from back and forth, crossing parties, based on MY ideals. My ideals are moral, not about what our "government" dictates.
1984 by George Orwell was on the other night, it's apparent some of you saw it.


-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

When was the last time the U.S. brutally killed 168 people on American soil and was remorseless about it? When was the last time the U.S. sneak attacked its own people.

Oh, so it's okay for the US to kill people, as long as it's not their own. Fuck the Vietnamese, fuck Iraqis, fuck everybody, just don't kill Americans!

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Wait until the militias get in full gear, man. They've got their own little Holy Trinity now...

the Father (Randy Weaver, Ruby Ridge) the Son (McVeigh) the Holy Spirit (David Koresh, Waco)

Granted, Weaver isn't dead yet, but the government gave it their best shot (no pun intended... well, okay, yeah, it was). The problem about executions and military-style raids like what you saw at Ruby Ridge and Waco is that they create martyrs. Look at Charlie Manson. Dude used to be the epitome of crazy. The name struck a discordant vibe of fear and adulation that this forum already resonates when it utters the name of McVeigh. The difference is that 30 years from now, there won't be any sad little pictures of McVeigh, old and fat and ugly, trudging before the board to once again get denied parole. So his message doesn't get diluted. His spirit doesn't get broken.

He IS the master of his fate.

He IS the captain of his soul.

He killed 168. But how many more will die in his name in the months and years ahead?

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

"Actually, the 'eye for an eye' quote from the Bible is about the punishment not exceeding the crime. It means that someone should not be killed for stealing a loaf of bread. It certainly does not mean that someone should be killed for murder."

According to your definition of the punishment not exceeding the crime, that's exactly what it means. Except, in this case, it means he should die 168 times. Death for him does not exceed his crime.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Katie,
And those countries are firing back? Are they not? While the U.S. is more or less "the police" of the world (which I don't agree with), acts of agression that could put the U.S. into a plight later on should be "nipped". The country as a whole as learned as a part of their mistakes. Current conflicts don't see the U.S. targeting schools, hospitals, etc. As seen in the gulf war, military installments, chemical plants and munitions (sp) plants were being attacked.
Vietnam has a sore spot in this country's heart and in its soul, thousands upon thousands of Americans lost their lives in a war that was never "declared".
Atrocities by Saddam Hussein in Iraq against his own people, the bombing of Sunni muslims in northern Iraq are crimes against their own. Many keep going back and claiming "its ok to kill others, as long as its not us".
Since when has that been the point? Threats against our country are acted on to PREVENT the loss of life here, and 90% of the time, those threats are to stop the ritualistic killing of innocent people in other countries. What about those people in Kuwait? What if we had not intervened? They'd be brutally demolished. The loss of life in the Gulf War was not limited to the military, innocent people died, but that was a war between countries and the forces of what essentially lies between "good and evil."
There are NO comparisons between the U.S. defense of its own and McVeigh's ruthless and heartless massacre of human life.
This country has provided us the opportunites to voice our opinions and beliefs freely, Katie's message board is proof (no matter how simple in stature). I don't dislike anyone for their views, but I find it all to common that "cop outs" and "pointing the finger" leads to this line of reasoning.
What if Saddam would have launched some of those chemical weapons at some school in the midwest? A church in Florida? A hospital in Virginia? Then what? Our actions overseas, the Gulf war specifically, were to prevent the loss of life on American soil, maybe yours and mine.
World peace would be great, but as long as people are driven by demented and halluciogenic (sp) though processes and think nothing about the actions that will deter from that freedom, we're all still held hostage.
Where did I say it was OK to kill others as long as its not our own? I never said that, I don't believe that. Senseless killing of anyone is wrong. Mistakes made in the past (SPECIFICALLY Vietnam) are essentially what we as a society are learning from? How many thousands of people were killed in the Gulf War? Case in point.
Defending our country and our people is NOT to be compared with a madman's acts of a holicostic nature.

Also, I'd like to add this is one of the best pieces of conversational topics I've been apart of.
For those of you that don't know, I'm a 21 year old college student at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Va. Raised by a single mother, father was active during Vietnam, not overly religious, I find my morals are that on what's morally right and not how I'm forcefed. I'm not overly liberal, overly conservative or whatever. I'm simply stating a point of a small-town educated (via Newport News) underachieving (academically) college sophomore who does my own share of partying and being generally stupid.



-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I bet he thought it was all a grand irony that he stirred up as much shit as he did. People talking about him, hating his guts, debating whether he should die... yes, pretty much exactly what he wanted.

He's probably sitting around somewhere having a capital laugh on us all. I just hate it when people like him get their way. He forced us all to pay attention, and we succumbed.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Interestingly enough, I don't want my tax dollars going towards an execution. Difference of opinion I guess. Then again my tax dollars are also developing weapons, oppressing people in this country and all over world, and proping up some of the most dispicable companies in operation. And then my non-tax dollars...Pepsi in Burma, Shell in Nigeria...But I digress. While certain prisoners get the good, three square meal, cable TV package that everyone talks about, plenty of abuses take place in prisons. Many prisoners are forced to work for their board doing shitty jobs for major corporations (microsoft, IBM) for less than a dollar an hour, many prisoners are beaten, many prisoners are killed and many prisoners are minorities. On Texas death row, the prisoners each got two pancakes in a paper bag twice a day for their meals for months on end. Many prisoners do not get medical care for things like tetnus, diabetes, and aids. I don't think we can hide behide this lie of the prison Ritz in defense of the death penalty. I think that the question of "what if we get the wrong one?" is critical. What odds will you accept (2:1?) and are you willing to be one of mistakes? Obviously in the case of Timothy McVeigh, this isn't really an issue, but in many others...The FBI managed to fuck up this one, by withholding tons of evidence, imagine if you don't have a really expensive legal team on your side. I find the closure arguement incredibly disconcerting. I don't think we should encourage deriving satisfaction from the death of another human being...isn't that what put us here in the first place? I'd recommend reading the article "It's not like falling asleep" which appeared in Harpers a few months ago...Also some lyrics from someone who can speak more eloquently than I:

"Everybody needs to see the prisoner, they need to make it even easier, to see me as a symbol, and not a human being. That way they can kill me and say it's not murder it's a metaphor, we are killing off our own failures and starting clean." Crime for Crime -Ani D.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

I don't think we can hide behide this lie of the prison Ritz in defense of the death penalty.

Exactly. Yes, there are prisons where the prisoners have it very good -- internet access, blah blah blah. But if you look into it, generally those "prison Ritzes" are minimum-security prisons filled with people who committed white-collar crimes, NOT murder.

As for that whole "I don't want my tax dollars paying for some terrorist to be in jail for sixty more years" -- well, I don't want my tax dollars paying for people with drug addictions to be thrown in jail like criminals. I don't want my tax dollars paying for senators to get blown in a fancyass stretch limo. Your money is always going to be paying for something you don't agree with, but also some stuff you DO agree with... that's just how it is.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

I personally am sickened by the thought that my taxes go to pump poison through someone's, not just Timothy McVeigh's, veins. And to the "suggestion" that if we don't like whats going on then why aren't we doing anything about it - please don't assume we're *not*. I am a horticulture major and plan on working in a program called Horticultural therapy after graduation. The idea is to go to prisons and teach inmates useful skills so that they don't have to revert. I am going to run community gardens with the idea that kids (and adults) can come and do something productive with their free time and learn to work with others. Changing this nation involves more than just changing the punishment system. People need to be reached before they reach that stage. Some of us *do* care what happens to others in this world. I don't blame the bombing victims and their families for wanting him dead. I didn't lose a husband, son, daughter, father, mother. But closure is not obtained instantly, read any basic psych book. Say what you want, our justice system isn't perfect but I feel damn lucky to live here. In any other country, Timothey McVeigh probably wouldn't have been executed. Because he probably would have never survived that long. And to the person who was wondering, I know someone who was murdered. I also know someone who was raped, someone who was tortured (in war), someone who suffered abuse. So my opinions are not wholely self- righteous babble.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

i just think it's sickening to have to hear about him on the news this much! like what his last meal was, his last words, etc etc. why not try and remember the people who were killed the bombing at 8:14 instead of going "hey timothy mcveigh is dead.. now let's report it for the next gazillion days..." it's just sad. it really is. because i had to deal with this crap when my uncle died in the world trade center bombing, the media talking about the bombing, the person who did it, and then they made a stupid mini movie about it that starred george clooney. i seriously don't get the point of making a movie about that. i bet they'll have one about the oklahoma city bombing too! this world is always looking for gossip and profit! it's sickening to think that someone made money off of something so tragic. i guess we all have our own opinions, but regardless of mcveigh living or dying, i still wouldn't be satisfied. i know what it's like to lose someone in an incident like this and whatever the sentence is, it will never bring your loved ones back. sure it'll bring you closure.. but with lots of time...i don't think i'd like to sit there and watch him die. what is that going to do for me but bring me more pain?

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Those who object to their tax dollars being spent on imprisoning mass murderers for life might like to know that, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, in the US the total costs associated with executing a prisoner are greater than those for life imprisonment:

Costs of the death penalty

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

True, true. Although it probably didn't cost quite as much with McVeigh because his execution was kinda sped up. A lot of people spend half their life on death row -- so you end up having to pay for them to live for however many years anyway, PLUS the cost of the execution. (Not to mention the cost of any appeals, bleh bleh.)

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

well, i think we all know that there is really no end to this debate, and possibly no right answer. there is evidence and an argument for every side, and not necessarily proof that either is the best answer. yes, *I* think the death penalty is a necessary part of criminal justice, yes, *I* think it is a deterrent to committing a heinous crime...not for everyone, but for many people...and that's enough for me. when you take the lives of 168 innocent people, i dont think it is going too far to be given the death penalty. timothy mcveigh killed 168 people...168 people that were not a part of what he was fighting against. and even if they WERE a part of that fight, it does not make it okay, it does not make it fair...just because the government made a huge, monumental mistake in vietnam or in the gulf or anywhere else does not mean we can go ahead and murder innocent people to get their attention or use it as an excuse. people have said it about the death penalty and i will say it about timothy mcveighs actions...two wrongs dont make a right. whether or not being sentenced to death is right will not be settled on today or any other day, because too many people have too many differing opinions and facts to back up their opinions...like abortion, or euthanasia...there just will never be a good enough answer for anyone. what we need to remember is that 168 people were killed because one man thought he was going to teach the government a lesson...and all he succeeded in doing was murdering innocent victims and stirring up a cloud of hatred for himself. there, unfortunately, will always be sick minded people like timothy mcveigh, and the government will always make mistakes, will always do something they shouldn't...but we cannot forget that the government is the cornerstone of american society, the government is what makes america what it is...the government gives us what we have. if you dont like the government, become a part of it and change it from within or do what you can to change it from the outside, but dont blow up a building full of innocent victims.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

"Those who object to their tax dollars being spent on imprisoning mass murderers for life might like to know that, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, in the US the total costs associated with executing a prisoner are greater than those for life imprisonment"

I'd like to point out that while the DPIC may have a lot of information, it also has a lot of bias. It is an anti-death penalty site, so what do you think will be on there? All the reasons why we shouldn't use the death penalty, and none of the reasons we should. They say the "best studies" were used to determine the costs, make references to the "most comprehensive" ones, but do not say why they are the best or most comprehensive, they do not say what they looked at, and they do not even link to study results so you can find out for yourself. They just pick and choose the elements of these mystical studies that they like the best.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Hmm... still dont hear any good solutions to the problem. Just a lot of pointing out the problem.

I'm wondering how many of people that are against the death penalty have actually dealt with a murder that affected your own life. Whether its a friend or a relative, it really changes the way you think about things.

It's amazing that so many people care so much about what happens to someone that murdered innocent people. Whether our judicial system gives someone "life in prison without parole" or "275 years in prison without parole" or "a death sentence", it's all the same. The are going to die in that place. They are never going to return to society.

I could care less if they are or arent getting internet access, cable TV, or just two pancakes a day in a paper bag. Guess what folks... they are CRIMINALS. They hurt, raped or killed someone and they deserve to sit in jail and rot... or be put to death.

My cousin was murdered in around 79. She was under 100 lbs. She was 18. He was almost 200 lbs. He beat her so hard that the punches to her chest, caused her heart to explode within her body. Now... should that guy sit in a cell and "think about what he's done" or be run over by a tractor trailer with those sharp spinning things on the front. Guess which one I choose? Do I think that's a humane thing to do to someone. Probably not. Would I want to see it happen? More than likely. Am I a sadistic person. Not usually. If you hurt or kill my family, I wish only the worse death in the world for you. If anything, McVeigh got it easy. A shot in the arm, a little foaming of the mouth and it was over. I'm sure the families of those victims would have rather seen him dragged behind a bus and then run over. When murder hits your own family, it changes you. It changes the way you think about things.

So, if you havent been affected personally, then you just dont understand. You can tout how bad the system is and how unfair it is that the government uses such methods to dispose of criminals, but I think you should spend just as much time thinking of those victims and their families. Like McVeigh, those were real live human beings. They had families, hopes and dreams. I've had to identify the dead body of my grandmother, and can totally sympathize with how a mother might have felt having to identify the small scorched body of her baby in that rubble.

With life come experiences... and they change the way you think about things. In general, I think the death penalty should be a last ditch effort. If the person can be rehabilited, I say go for it. And, in McVeigh's case, if they admit to the crime, are unremorseful and are given a death sentence I say, get it over with right away.

Just remember... McVeigh wasn't the victim here. Before your next post, think about those 168 victims for a second. They have families that will never ever forget them and what happened to them. Families that cry on their birthdays and put flowers on their graves.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

"I'm wondering how many of people that are against the death penalty have actually dealt with a murder that affected your own life. Whether its a friend or a relative, it really changes the way you think about things."

Not necessarily. Quite a few of the OKC victims' families and survivors were still against the death penalty after all they had been through.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Not necessarily. Quite a few of the OKC victims' families and survivors were still against the death penalty after all they had been through.

On the flip side of that, I'm sure quite a few of those victims' families that were against the death penalty suddenly favored it... I'll guess that you havent dealt with it personally. Didnt think so.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Never claimed to have dealt with it personally...

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Hopefully you will never have to... but if you do, let me know where you stand on the issue.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

I didn't read... the rest of these answers because a million were contributed... so if this was already said, well. argh. sorry.

Katie, I just wanted to point out that you mentioned the declaration. Rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Saying this is the premise that our country is built around... while that may be true, this premise of life, liberty, and happiness was put down during a time when executions were far more common. A bit of hypocrisy if you interpret it that way. Or maybe these freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness were created for those people who abide by the laws this country was built around?

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

My point still is, who gives the government right to take somebody's life? Who are they to play God?

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

i think WE give the government that right, as citizens, as voters. we elect the decision makers...

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

We give the government the right. The government is the leviathon, we are the "subjects," so to speak.....we give up some rights for protection. That's the way it works. Otherwise, everyone's life would suck. Gotta give up something to get something back.....

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

i don't think this post had anything to do about solutions, just what one thought about the issue. there is no final decision on what is fair and just because people will hold their own beliefs regardless. people are either for or against the death penalty. in a way, i agree with greg.. i agree that when an event like this hits close to home, you really think about your issues and compare it with your hurt and your anger. i wanted the bomber of the WTC to die when i found out my uncle had been killed. but i was..and i still am against the death penalty. i just can never bring myself to wish for someone's death that badly. apparently someone wanted to kill a bunch of people to make a statement... why would i stoop that low? Why would i decide to "play god".. if i wanted the bomber to die, i'd almost be wishing for what happened to my uncle to happen to him... i just kept thinking to myself about how hurt and angry i was, but no matter what i decided it was never going to bring my uncle back. it was never going to make my aunt snap out of her depression. it would never make anything better for any one of us. sure, at first i wanted the bastard to die. but after a while, i just let it go and tried to move on. it's never a right answer whether to execute a person or whether to give them life in jail because of all the different views people will hold. but when it hits close to home, people take it seriously when you start saying "wow look at how mcveigh lived" or you start to side with him. he was a cruel and evil man. how is that remotely fascinating? he killed 168 people, ANY one of those people could have been, if at any other place and any other time, you or a loved one. i feel for those families because i know exactly what its like to lose someone in a bombing. it's a horrible thing, but to hear people talk about how fascinating mcveigh was, is shocking and quite depressing. to think this is the world we live in.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

he was a cruel and evil man. how is that remotely fascinating? he killed 168 people, ANY one of those people could have been, if at any other place and any other time, you or a loved one. i feel for those families because i know exactly what its like to lose someone in a bombing. it's a horrible thing, but to hear people talk about how fascinating mcveigh was, is shocking and quite depressing. to think this is the world we live in.

To be fascinated by someone does not always mean that you think they're a great person who does wonderful things. It can, but generally it means that you find a person terribly interesting. Christ, I think Hitler is fascinating. He was an evil, evil person, not unlike McVeigh (although I really don't like the term "evil") -- and it's interesting to find out why they did what they did and what caused them to turn into the people they became, because it's so hard to comprehend why ANYONE would do ANYTHING so awful.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

"we give up some rights for protection."

Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither.

Execution is so much spectacle. Like that bit in the George Carlin routine where he points out that before a lethal injection, the condemned is swabbed down with alcohol. Be a damn shame if he got an infection.

I mean, look at the setup in Terre Haute. The cell had a window to a guard room where McVeigh (and anyone who follows) is watched by a guard TO MAKE SURE HE DOESN'T KILL HIMSELF BEFORE THE GUBMINT GET ITS CHANCE. They say it's about justice, but it's really about vengeance, with the goverment the self-appointed heavy.

For all their reluctance to ever have something like that taped, they like to make a real EVENT out of it. Shit, why not just hang him in the town square and let everyone throw rotten vegetables at him? Oh yeah, I forgot, we're more civilised now.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

As for giving up freedom for security, that's what *you're* doing, Eric....if you are a male over 18 years old....you register for the draft. The government decides when to call your number. If we're in a war, you can be called up to fight, whether you like it or not. You defend your country because others have defended it for you.

As for vengeance, I wholeheartedly agree. The death penalty is very much about vengeance. Revenge and retaliation for wrongs committed. But along with RE-venge, it is also A-venging. Different words, same meaning. Yet for some reason, one is looked upon as more noble....avenging is not without cause. Avenging is often justice.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Personally I do not wanna know what made Timothy Mc Veigh do what did just like I don't wanna know what he likes in his cheeseburger. I truly believe that some people are evil and are beyond helping. He was such a person. I have a personal friend of minee who is a prison guard in a maximum safety prison, one night he was making his rounds and humming while he was walking. Well one of the prisonners filed a complaint with the officials of the prison because he was expressing his joy of living and therefore letting everybody know he was happy and that made the prisonner who is in jail feel bad because he was in prison and had no joy of living. What kind of stupid shit is that. Can you just see Mc Veigh sitting in his jail cell writting a complaint because the guard made him feel bad. I have never had anybody close to me be murdered but I am pretty sure if it god forbid someday happen to me I would wanna kill them with my bare hands slowly and painfully. He got what he deserved.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Personally I do not wanna know what made Timothy Mc Veigh do what did just like I don't wanna know what he likes in his cheeseburger.

Why not? Finding out why people do things like this is the first step in figuring out how to prevent similar crimes in the future.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Knowledge is power. Knowing is half the battle. History is doomed to repeat itself unless we learn from past mistakes.

All good arguments to know as much as possible.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

First off.

************EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION HERE!!!****************

The Bible NEVER SAYS "AN EYE FOR AN EYE"!!! That was Hamurabi's Code, long before the Bible. The Bible says turn the other cheek. But the Bible has no place in this arguement, as it is one of legislation, not faith.

Now, that being said. What purpose does the death penalty serve? Ideally, it is a deterrant for murderers. Ideally, they will think, "If I kill, I may be arrested and killed myself" Ideally. This is not a reality. Murderers are NEVER going to do this. Consequences are the furthest thing from the mind of a killer.

Now, since the ideal is not achieved, what IS? Vengeance. Plain and simple. Angry, bitter, base, VENGEANCE. This solves absolutely nothing. Insetad, more are dead, and there is another family in mourning.

Plus, sometimes the wrong person is executed. And if that happens even ONCE, that's too many.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

"As for giving up freedom for security, that's what *you're* doing, Eric....if you are a male over 18 years old....you register for the draft."

I didn't choose to do that. I was forced to do that in school. In the event of actual, draftable conflict... well, I can say "oot" and "aboot" and "eh?" with the best of them.

Because I'm a chickenshit, that's why.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

My point was that that's what is required to live in this country. You *don't* have a choice, except for leaving the country, which is certainly a right and a freedom. Basically, if you don't like it, you can get out.

Also, I find it disheartening that you'd dodge before you'd serve. What if everyone was that way? We'd be at the mercy of terrorist groups all over the place. Actually, I'm not going to get started on this, because it makes me see red.

As for the "eye for an eye" not being in the Bible, the hell it's not. Exodus 21, verse 24.

"24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

Not like the Bible is such a wonderful thing to go by....a politically-charged book written to shape public opinion and keep the masses obedient....imho, of course. Heh.

While we're Bibling, here's a fun link: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Bible verses explained by atheists!

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

I don't think it's really fair for any female to pass judgment on a male for dodging the draft -- considering we (females) aren't being forced to sign up for it ourselves and therefore have no idea how it would feel to be shoved out into the front lines. Sure, we can volunteer -- but, well, the key word there is volunteer.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

Why not? Finding out why people do things like this is the first step in figuring out how to prevent similar crimes in the future.

it could prevent it, yes. but it could also encourage it. ever hear on the news how people who commit crimes have seen it on tv, read it in a book, or followed the story of a murderer? no matter what anyone says in this forum, there will always be a debate about this matter, as there are so many people with so many different views. maybe you find it fascinating..and i'm okay with that. i'm not saying your view on the matter is a wrong one. all i'm saying is that i don't agree with it. maybe it's interesting to me just to find out the exact reason why someone killed another person so it will settle my emotional state, but i won't go out and buy a book about them. i'd be putting money in someone's pocket for the story of a murderer. probably one of the criminal's relatives - they sure as hell don't deserve the money. maybe that's the reason why i'm not fascinated by timothy mcveigh or hitler or anyone else. because of the fact that this world is totally about making money. maybe it's not the reason. who knows.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

"Also, I find it disheartening that you'd dodge before you'd serve. What if everyone was that way? We'd be at the mercy of terrorist groups all over the place. Actually, I'm not going to get started on this, because it makes me see red."

Leave the Communists out of this. :)

And it's not totally accurate. Since Vietnam, the military has engaged in a number of incidents ranging from "peacekeeping missions" to all-out War With a Capital W, without the need to draft people. You ask what would happen if everyone was that way, but that'll never happen. There are too many people that like the power that comes with that uniform, that rank, that gun.

People like Timothy McVeigh.

Those who serve in the public interest like that, the military folks, the police, the firemen - the ones that honestly do it out of a sense of duty and a desire to make the world a safer place, are deserving of whatever honor they receive. I'm sure it's a wonderful thing to be able to do that sort of thing. I'm saying that I'm not that person, and the government can't make me into that ideal by calling my number one night during the news. Sitting in a jungle, looking Charlie in the face, I'd probably freeze and have my brains become part of the landscape. And that solves nothing.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

Oops.

If you parse the above a certain way, it can look like I'm saying McVeigh is deserving of our respect. I'm not saying that; they are two distinct thoughts.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

To those people talking about how I can't make an argument against the death penalty because I've never had a loved one die violently by someone else's hand, I think you are wrong. I've never licked a razor, either, but I bet it would hurt. I think the fact that I'm not emotionally involved allows me to see the death penalty situation more objectively. I'm sure if someone close to me died like that I would also be out for revenge, but I'd like to think that out government uses logic to make decisions instead of raw, animal, instinct. Not that they necessarily do.

And the only reason the US has ever entered into a war is because of money, or to protect US interests. The Gulf War would not have been fought to protect Kuwait if Kuwait did not have a shitload of oil. And yes, the US does kill innocent civilians in war. Children, too. If you're ok with innocent people dying so that we can be a more prosperous country, well, I'm not. And of course Timothy McVeigh was wrong in bombing the Murrah Building, but he had motives; he wasn't some lunatic like most people would want to believe. You should all rent the documentary "Waco: Rules of Engagement" (check out the IMDB listing at http://us.imdb.com/Title?0120472 ). Not everyone who believes that the government lies to us (because they do) is a crazy gun crazed paranoid isolationist conspiracy theorist. Seriously, watch the movie, it completely changed how I viewed the Waco incident.

-dan

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

I tried to register for the draft. Do you know that it is actually ILLEGAL for a female to register for the draft? Sure, they have the "female" gender checkbox, but according to some Supreme Court law, if some postal worker was to actually allow me to register for the draft, they and I would be breaking the law.

Don't think I don't believe women should have to register. I do. I do very much. I think it's ridiculous and an insult to women that we not only do not have to, but can't or we're breaking the law.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

Hey dan, why do we have ground troops in Bosnia and Kosovo?

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

To those people talking about how I can't make an argument against the death penalty because I've never had a loved one die violently by someone else's hand, I think you are wrong.

well as for one of those people who mentioned a loved one dying in a tragic accident such as this, i just wanted to state that i never once said that. i said "i agree that when an event like this hits close to home, you really think about your issues and compare it with your hurt and your anger......to hear people talk about how fascinating mcveigh was, is shocking and quite depressing." i would never say that you aren't entitled to your opinion..especially just because you've never had something like this happen to you or anyone you know. i think that everyone is entitled to express their views, actually they're more than welcome to with me. i don't block out anyone's beliefs at all and i will never say you are wrong because it's YOUR opinion. it's what you believe to be true. in fact, i don't think anyone actually stated that you are not entitled to speak your mind because you're on the outside and weren't personally affected by something like this.

I think the fact that I'm not emotionally involved allows me to see the death penalty situation more objectively.

yes, it does. very much so actually. when you're not emotionally involved, you tend not to be so attached and your mind is open to both sides.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

If I were in an especially cynical mood, I could point out all the talk surrounding "stability" in the Balkans...The US has interests in Europe that they want to protect, and an escalated war in this region would not be good for said interests. Here are a few more questions (because I am in a cynical mood after all). Why are Milosovich and Saddam targets that need to be brought down, while Pinochet and Mobutu where dictators that we propped up? All four are hideous dictators who have killed thousands. Why aren't our peacekeeping forces in Rwanda or Tibet? Back to the issue at hand...if I believed that every person in jail was a criminal, then perhaps the treatment of prisoners would bother me less. If the likelihood of a jail sentence didn't correlate (and I know that correlation does not prove causation, nonetheless...) so strongly with ethnicity, class and political beliefs than I could believe that every person in jail was a criminal. But even if these conditions were met, I am not sure that I could condone all the activities that go on in prisons. And if I thought that jail was an effective deterent to crime, then I would support it more. But with the prisoners that I have worked with (who have mostly been convicted of drug or alcohol violations) jail time only pulls them farther away from a place where we can help them. I also watch domestic violence perpetrators come repeatedly before the court, only to be sent home to continue the abusive behavior. The justice system has some institutionalized some of the most appalling prejudices that are present in our american society. And I would also like to point out that there is a huge assumption built into the phrase "IF this were to happen to you...". Maybe it has happened to us...maybe not. I am sorry for your family's loss. Still, I don't feel it's okay to disempower people by exclusion.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

i know that i'm not trying to disempower people by exclusion. i mentioned that the reason i don't find him fascinating is because i think about people's families and the people it happened to. so i hope you're not talking about me when you said that. :)

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

Bethany,

Probably because in cases like the Balkans and Yugoslavia, the folks getting the hatchet are white. Countries like Haiti, and the war-torn African nations, with black populations, don't garner the interest of all the Old White Dudes in Congress. Kuwait was an exception, they had something we wanted.

-- Anonymous, June 17, 2001

Exactly Eric, exactly. Madeliene Albright practically said as much when one week she explained how we were staying out of the Chinese/Tibetan conflict (read yellow people), and the next she screamed for the blood of Milosevic, mentioning something about her "heritage" in the process (protection for the people of the proper color and ethnicity). Racism and the fear of the "other" has been a defining force for this country for a long time.

-- Anonymous, June 17, 2001

good to see some deep discussion! i have really enjoyed reading this thread.

i do not agree with the death penalty. even when the guy has admitted to the crime, i think serving out his time in prison is more punishment than being put to death. if he lives till he's 80, thats 40 odd years of thinking about what he has done every single day, and never getting away from it. put him to sleep and its over. which would you rather?

for those people who are wrongly convicted, there is always the chance of release. which can not undo the injustice of the conviction, but it is a chance to live out the rest of their lives with friends and relations. you cant bring back a dead person, and no court can declare guilt with 100% certainty. therefore as far as i can see no court should be allowed to make an irreversible decision.

dont bitch about your tax dollars (or pounds if you happen to be british). each individual person in the country makes such a miniscule proportion of the overall total taxation none of them individually have the right to dictate what it gets spent on. there are people starving in other parts of the world and you people complain about a matter of 50-100 dollars. give what they tell you to and be happy you have the standard of living you do.

the minute you start complaining, i say is when you prove that you dont give a shit about anyone else apart from yourself.

also some people above have hinted that his crime was so heinous because 168 people died. does that make it worse than if one person died ? it makes him a more evil man, because the number of people in the building was 168? i dont think so.

as if 168 is a big number anyway? think about the holocaust and all those former-nazis who managed to slip away unnoticed... there are plenty of bigger fish to fry first...

yes people died. yes that is a terrible thing. yes he deserved to be punished for what he did. no, executing him will NOT stop other people from killing in the future. anyone who does that is already insane beyond the point of no return anyway. executing him just makes the george "i'm a moron" bush's of the world feel self- satisfied and righteous.

"ok i may have drunk-driven a few times (and risked killing other people in the process) but at least i didnt bomb 168 people. i'm a model american."

he did what he did because a) he was insane and b) he wanted publicity. you think he should have stood on a street corner, waved a placard and hoped people listened to him? you think he stood a cat- in-hells-chance of getting elected to government and single-handedly changing the way your government behaves? thats bull shit. lots of us have political views that will never get heard. mcveigh just didnt know where the dividing line was. it makes him ill. i dont think it makes him evil. and i dont think it makes him deserving of an execution.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2001

Here's a little story everyone should hear.. it's related to the topic. Probably won't change anyone's mind.. but anyway...

-----------

At the prodding of my friends, I am writing this story. My name is Mildred Hondorf. I am a former elementary school music teacher from DeMoines, Iowa.

I've always supplemented my income by teaching piano lessons-something I've done for over 30 years. Over the years I found that children have many levels of musical ability. I've never had the pleasure of having a protege though I have taught some talented students. However I've also had my share of what I call "musically challenged" pupils.

One such student was Robby. Robby was 11 years old when his mother (a single mom) dropped him off for his first piano lesson. I prefer that students (especially boys)! begin at an earlier age, which I explained to Robby. But Robby said that it had always been his mother's dream to hear him play the piano. So I took him as a student.

Well, Robby began with his piano lessons and from the beginning I thought it was a hopeless endeavor. As much as Robby tried, he lacked the sense of tone and basic rhythm needed to excel.But he dutifully reviewed his scales and some elementary pieces that I require all my students to learn. Over the months he tried and tried while I listened and cringed and tried to encourage him. At the end of each weekly lesson he'd always say, "My mom's going to hear me play someday."

But it seemed hopeless. He just did not have any inborn ability. I only knew his mother from a distance as she dropped Robby off or waited in her aged car to pick him up. She always waved and smiled but never stopped in.

Then one day Robby stopped coming to our lessons. I thought about calling him but assumed, because of his lack of ability, that he had decided to pursue something else. I also was glad that he stopped coming. He was a bad advertisement for my teaching!

Several weeks later I mailed to the student's homes a flyer on the upcoming recital. To my surprise Robby (who received a flyer) asked me if he could be in the recital. I told him that the recital was for current pupils and because he had dropped out he really did not qualify. He said that his mom had been sick and unable to take him to piano lessons but he was still practicing. "Miss Hondorf...I've just got to play!" he insisted. I don't know what led me to allow him to play in the recital. Maybe it was his persistence or maybe it was something inside of me saying that it would be all right.

The night for the recital came. The high school gymnasium was packed with parents, friends and relatives. I put Robby up last in the program before I was to come up and thank all the students and play a finishing piece. I thought that any damage he would do would come at the end of the program and I could always salvage his poor performance through my "curtain closer."

Well, the recital went off without a hitch. The students had been practicing and it showed. Then Robby came up on stage. His clothes were wrinkled and his hair looked like he had run an eggbeater through it. "Why didn't he dress up like the other students?" I thought. "Why didn't his mother at least make him comb his hair for this special night?"

Robby pulled out the piano bench and he began. I was surprised when he

nnounced that he had chosen Mozart's Concerto #21 in C Major. I was not prepared for what I heard next. His fingers were light on the keys, they even danced nimbly on the ivories. He went from pianissimo to fortissimo...from allegro to virtuoso. His suspended chords that Mozart demands were magnificent! Never had I heard Mozart played so well by people his age.

After six and a half minutes he ended in a grand crescendo and everyone was on their feet in wild applause. Overcome and in tears I ran up on stage and put my arms around Robby in joy. "I've never heard you play like that Robby! How'd you do it?" Through the microphone Robby explained: "Well Miss Hondorf...remember I told you my mom was sick? Well, actually she had cancer and passed away this morning. And well....she was born deaf so tonight was the first time she ever heard me play. I wanted to make it special."

There wasn't a dry eye in the house that evening. As the people from Social Services led Robby from the stage to be placed into foster care, I noticed that even their eyes were red and puffy and I thought to myself how much richer my life had been for taking Robby as my pupil.

No, I've never had a prodigy but that night I became a protege...of Robby's. He was the teacher and I was the pupil. For it is he that taught me the meaning of perseverance and love and believing in yourself and maybe even taking a chance in someone and you don't know why. This is especially meaningful to me since, after serving in Desert Storm, Robby was killed in the senseless bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in April of 1995, where he was reportedly....playing the piano.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2001

Heartbreaking... tearjerking... (yawn).

Truth of the matter is, there are 169 stories like that. And not all of them are so "special." Some of them are probably as bad as McVeigh's story; after all, a lot of the casualities were GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES. Yuck.

And I love how whoever wrote that stuck in the bit about serving in the Persian Gulf. Two points:

1) So did McVeigh. 2) Like that's anything special. He went over and shot up some Arabs so we could keep getting our gas at $1.15 a gallon. And look how affordable it is now.

On a related note, am I the only one who's sick of the phrase "Gulf War Hero?" There were no heroes in the Persian Gulf Classic. There were the aggressors, the army that barreled their way into a sovereign nation and pretty much pillaged it to satisfy their own theories about their rights and duties... and then there were the Iraqis.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2001

That's the lamest story in the world. It also reeks of urban ledgendism.

-dan

-- Anonymous, June 28, 2001

I think that whoever disregards the personal stories of all the people died in the bombing are makinga huge mistake. How can you have so much sympathy for a guy who is obviously a evil man beyond help and not care about people who were going to work or dropping their kids off at daycare. Who are you to judge what these people are just because they are governement employees. With Timothy Mc Veigh the situation was different it was obvious he was a lunatic. My point is that when we stop caring about people then what kind of person have we become. I would much rather care about those little stories even if some heartless people may yawn at them but at least I have a heart maybe all the people who feel so sorry for Mc Veigh should take a trip to the iste of the bombing and sit there and look at the monument there in memory of all those people and then try to imagine that one of these people was your brother or your mom or perhaps your child. If that doesn't move you then quick run to the doctor cause you have no heart.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2001

I don't know that that's it at all. We as a society have been so dulled to this sort of thing that it doesn't even move us anymore. That's why we pay more attention to McVeigh than to the people who were in the building. The death doesn't concern us. The spectacle is what does. The celeb. The Big Bad Man, and here he is now! Look at him, scowling and gruff and pissed at the world. Boo! Boo! Now let's bring out a victim's mom. Mom, how do you feel about McVeigh? If you could say something to McVeigh now, what would it be? Does it bother you that you won't get to watch him die? What will you do while he's being executed? Have you been to that big monument we built to commemorate what the Big Bad Man did? "Um can I tell people about my daughter?" Oh, sorry, no time, we just received word that McVeigh has, in fact, passed a bowel movement. This might be his last bowel movement. For more on this, we go to noted criminal endocrinoligst Grimace N. Strane...

169 people died. I wonder how many that was as a percentage of all the Americans who died that day overall. People talk about the meaning and the sanctity of life. But how many grieve for all who died that day? Not just the ones in the building... what about the guy in Fargo, North Dakota, who got hit by a car? The three-month-old child from Tallahasse, Florida, who died after a valiant struggle with life after being born eleven weeks premature? The 94-year-old with cancer in Reno, Nevada who finally let the pain stop? There are stories in THESE people's lives, too, but no pressing need to get them out.

Because they didn't do anything but die. They weren't part of the MEDIA EVENT.

Personally, I think people need to drop the pretense that life is somehow sacred. We don't act like it is unless someone's watching, anyway.

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2001

Murder deserves the death penalty, it's as simple as that. It's not about "getting even", it's about punishment and the price you pay when you screw up. My best friend in the whole world, who also happens to be an ex boyfriend, murdered a girl in February, and he didn't get the death penalty because he plea bargained. Do I wish he would have died? Of course not, but I don't think he got what he deserved at all, and he's my best friend. I don't want any flak from this, I'm just stating my opinion.

-- Anonymous, July 22, 2001

This is a press release about a controversial CD single and it’s “all too eerie" coincidence with the Tim McVeigh execution and the Oklahoma City bombing.

Shades of Grey are releasing a new (collectors edition) CD as a tribute to the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing. It contains two new songs composed by the members of Shades of Grey for your listening enjoyment.

The first song on this CD is entitled “Soul Captain.” This expressive piece of fury was written by Shades of Grey's bass player (Brian Konicki) two years prior to Timothy McVeigh’s execution. It was inspired by the emotionally rigid poem "Invictus,” written in the mid 1800's by William Ernest Henley. It was an unusual coincidence that on the day the band finished recording it, Timothy McVeigh was put to death by lethal injection at a prison in Terre Haute, Indiana. His last issued statement was the first four paragraphs of the poem “Invictus.”

The second song on the CD is entitled “Don’t Give Up the Fight.” This passionate rock ballad is a tribute to all the victims and their families of the Oklahoma City bombing. Written by Shades of Grey's front man, (Steve Willey) it is a reminder to Oklahoma City and the rest of the world not to give up the fight.

The band wanted to add that: “In no way, shape, or form does any member of Shades of Grey condone the actions or beliefs of Timothy McVeigh.”

This CD is the bands way of expressing their feelings about this world known disaster.

The promotional copies are to be sent out this week to select press and media organizations around the globe. If your organization did not receive a copy by August 30th, 2001 and feel that we may have overlooked you, please contact the American Selective Press Group for a copy.

Direct any comments, questions or points of interest to: American Selective Press Group 2 Indian Rd. Dudley, MA.01571 508-943-8679 – Darryl Peck 413-245-3558 – Dave Bell

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Remind me to avoid that CD like the plague. Touchey-feeley shit pisses me off, and I can't stand no-name stiffs who use tragedies to try to thrust themselves into the public eye.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

i believe god wants us to learn how to forgive and forget and in time all of our wounds will heal. we have to pray and believe that the people who lost love ones will rise above all of the pain and be able to move forward. timothy probably made peace with god so why should we throw all our energy into wanting to see him pay uf he has been forgiven.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2002