Gosh darn this has really troubled me for a long time! I'm in the camp that the closest that we can get to God is the experience of love. this we've discussed many times. Some of us believe God IS love. I think this can really be experienced best through young children, animals or all things of innocence. You have to be somewhat insensitive, to say the least, not to feel the love that just pours out of things of innocence!

Well if that sounds right then here is my problem. Children are getting tortured and slaughtered daily on this planet! Some guy in Japan just carved up some more just the other day! Love doesn't protect our innocent precious children. Nor does God!! All over this world people pray for the children. Why? It just doesn't seem to work does it? It simply just leads me to the belief God does not protect.

Anyway it makes sense when I think of giving adult humans free will. But it doesn't make any sense that there is no protection for things that cannot protect themselves. This is really a tough one. Maybe I need prozac......Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Answers

when we start out in this life,we are sperm cells,that race to the egg to fertilize it.We don't say after you,or you go first.We aggressivly push back others to be the one to fertilize the egg so we can be born.Those of us alive on the earth are the most agressive of the agressive in the batch of sperm we came from.No one here, child or animal are innocent.We all leave this world one way or another. And we all came from somewhere . We are energy and energy doesn't get born or die it just keeps changing and transformming to other forms .That's why every child or creature on earth has it's own persoallity ,it came here with .Will we go to heaven,paridise,reach a state of nirvana.Or will we go to that other place,where war always exist,where people somewhere will always be starving to death,where we are always unsatisfied and no matter how much we have we'll always be discontent and always want more & more where disease creates suffering where fire always exist and keeps us gasping for air from the chemicals burning,where when our hopes get high with the idea things might get better,the hopes are knock down by things getting worse.Or will we go to hell,if it is not the same place I just desribed.It's sad that anything alive has to suffer.But then there's the questain,"Why are we here in the first place and why did we struggle so hard as a sperm cell to reach the egg before the others did"?Maybe the lessons of this world are learned through suffering.A strange looking person once said,"for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".It was written in a popular book,Eat of the tree of life not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,wrong or right, love or hate.Seems like we can't have one without the other in this world of ours.And alot of what people think is love is just straight out euphoria.Self gratification in the enjoyment of someone or something.Follow your heart dude ,it may take time but all the answers are there.

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Kirk, don't we all feel this way when we see hate, evil and destruction!? it can seem so overwelming!

Kirk,I was just reading within the last hr. a book by the phychic Sylvia Brown, she says that in the perfect place that we came from, and to which we will return,all is possitive,all is love, She says that we come here so's that we can experiance the negative so's that we can grow and become closer to the Godhead. Hm, I say if this place is so perfect, what do I care about growing! I don't want to learn and suffer, just let me stay there and be a child! It's hard for me to believe that I sent myself here to learn things if I was in a place of pure Love.Know what I mean!? Why would I do this to myself. Life's a trip! But yet I so want to believe that there is a reason! When I see my sweet lovin 90 yr. old grandma living the last of her life racked with pain, I have to believe that there is a reason! And the reason had better be a darn good one! Theres gotta be a reason for it all Kirk!

The only thing that I can sum up about God protecting anybody, is I think that he does,but I allso think that some things are soppose to happen and God doesn't interfer nor protect us from the things that happen to us and that we have to go through,because we would not be able to grow and learn if these things didn't happen

And Kirk I do believe that we just arn't smart enough, we arn't in the position to see, the whole picture. My good friend Patty once had a dream that she was being bent and twisted and forced, she was crying with the pain and torture, then suddenly she could see herself from above, and she could see that she was a piece of thread that was being woven into a beautiful tapestry. After she saw herself as a piece of this tapastry she then relaxed and no longer fought the pullin, but laid back and let herself be weaved. Oh Kirk, that's how it is! We can't see, we can't look down upon this beautiful tapestry that we are being bent and twisted onto, but someday we will! Kirk I bet I reconize you someday in the after life, in that perfect place, we will be looking at this tapestry of our lifes, and we will see that all the pain and trouble weaved something wonderful!

There is a reason there is a ryhmn, I insist! Love Tren

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

wc, whiteblood, Wow, I really like what you said to Kirk " Follow your heart dude, all the answers are there" It's so true! For each of us,no matter how many books we read, how many ministers or psyics or buddahs or mediums we choose to listen to, the real truth for us is in us!

I found your information about being a sperm truly interesting! I am one of the most un agrresive creatures that I know, I speak softly, I take spiders found in the house back outside instead of killing them, I stay away from arguments and or any confrontations. I find it very interesting to think that I fought my way to get here! Wow, I must have wanted to come here really bad! Wow , thanks WC, this is gonna give me something to think about, I wanted to get here really bad, Wow! Why! Wow, Tren

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

I think it was Vaclav Havel (or was it Eli Wiesel?) who said, in response to a question about how could he believe in God when there was all this pain and cruelty and suffering, he said that it was those things which make us feel the best of our humanity -- empathy & kindness, and which give us the opportunity to put action to these attributes. That it was in feeling others'pain that we truly are human.

Funny, I don't think of myself as starting out as a sperm -- I think of myself as starting out as an ovum. Must be that gender thing.

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Although the ovum contains half of the chromosomes ,I was led to believe the sperm determins the sex so I just took for granted even women start out as a sperm cell?

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Yeah, veddy interesting......or one could say that we all start out as an ovum, because the dear little spermies could swim forever and a day in vain if there was no egg to fertilize?

And to make it more fun.......way back when I was deep in dyke politics and philosophy, I remember doing research into human parthenogenesis! :)

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Hi TRen!! Very beautiful post. I really like the anology of the tapestry! Rings true doesn't it? Thank ya!!....With Love...Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

WC you have alot to say in a short post my friend! I will only comment about learning from our suffering. I agree we all have a lot to learn from our suffering and I sure have over my life but I don't yet understand what a 6 year old child learns from being stabbed to death by some nut case! Or whats the lesson in starving when your to young to do anything about it. See what I'm saying? It applies to adults but doesn't seem to apply with children. thank you much for your response!....Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Dear, sweet Kirk, don't I just wish I had an answer for that one!! Tested my faith more than once I will have to tell you. Still does. I have talked to my "spiritual advisor" about it and she just says "bitch it out with Him" and I do. I get very Jobian sometimes out in the woods, walking back and forth and yelling at Him. One time at my most painful moment I felt like He HUGGED me, and I GOT it that He was just as sad as I was that man was so removed from Love. That is the only "answer" I have ever gotten on those kind of issues.

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

I suspect some of us choose to come to this earth school as teachers to others, as martyrs if you will. These children in Japan, and their poor families, will draw attention to problems in their culture (probably gleaned from ours!) that need healing. Ryan White, the young boy who died of AIDS, and tried while he was here to do what he could to draw attention to that problem. There are hundreds of examples of young people who suffer so that the rest of us can grow. At least this is what feels right to me. I absolutely believe I learn more from children by far than I do from adults.

Blessings to you Kirk, and once again your sweetness shines through. What a guy you are!

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Kirk since I'm not directly in contact with these children who have or are suffering,I don't know what lesson they have learned.Maybe they've learned none.Maybe it was their loved ones who have learned lessons or possibly the ones who caused their suffering.It's seems you may be indulging in others suffering.It is their lesson not yours.Or maybe it is yours.I've felt others suffering since I'm a child.It's endless.I not just sensitive to children suffering ,I feel it in most people I meet no matter how big their smile is when I'm talking with them .Adults are just the children in an advanced growing stage,although they may have gathered information that can help them feed and defend themselves they too are helpless in changing things around them.I can dwell on it,but it just seems it's the nature of earth life.I think your going through a spiritual trans formation.Kind of graduating to a higher level than you've been at. I still don't see your relation of defencelessness to innocence.A lot of old and disabled adults are also un able to defend or feed themselves .Would you consider them innocent? I don't think you need pozac ,there is a hebal anti-depressent used in Turkey and Greece given to people to relieve their grief when a loved one dies,It's called opium .That might work for awhile but I think your going thru a change where the old Kirk persoality has to die to allow the new advanced, sensitive to others Kirk emerge .Your starting to questain Gods intent.Your discontent with the suffering of children is making you brave enough not to fear God and questain Gods motives.Your getting enlightened.It's starts by not fearing God then by learning to trust and love God dispite all the suffering and what you think is bad.It's my belief God doesn't want followers who are obiedient out of fear ,but followers who aren't afraid of God and follower thru their heart. Their suffering might be for you in a way .Don't take offence from what I'm telling you,I know I don't have your answers.But I spent a long time with this letter,taking time that is needed for other responsibilties in helping you answer your questain .Your suffering for them,won't take away their suffering and you are not obligated to suffer on their account.Life feeds on life on earth.Everything we eat is alive.Even the vegetarian has to kill to eat.Wether it's a bean or head of lettuce.And many think if everyone was a fruittarian(aperson who eats only fruit and doesn't kill the seed by eating it,there fore not creating any acts of violence or suffering to other life forms) the world would be aless brutal place.But I see it as, even if the big bang theory is correct ,material life started as a violent boom.Take a walk in the woods by yourself and sit by a creek or spring where you can hear the water trickling through the rocks.It has a healing affect on mind and body.

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

WC. whoever you are welcome to our forum......I bow to your wisdom.....

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Diane

Hey I like that! Bitch it out with him! My problem Diane is the supreme being won't talk to me. If you happen to have some clout please tell him Kirk's pissed!! Tell him I demand one of those force fields ( like in Star Trek) around all of his innocent creatures! Hows that sound? If you agree throw in some suggestions of your own! Maybe we can shame the negligent jerk into some action!!...Hee Hee...Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001

Now Kirk, God dosen't do those awful things to children. Instead of being angry at God, be mad at the guy who did it. You're blaming the wrong guy. Now really, the guy who hurt those kids KNEW what he was doing was wrong! God gave him a conscience just like the rest of us. We were all given wisdom of right and wrong, some just choose to ignore that fact and go their own way reguardless of the cost to anyone else. It's called SELF.

And too, in some cases, the person just isn't right in the head. Maybe something happened, head injury, chemicals, retarded or maybe he was on meth. Man invented hard core drugs to injest, not God. And you know those drugs will make the nicest person insane. There had to be something terribly wrong with the guy to do what he did.

You allready know I believe in the Bible, and in my belief, anytime WE step out of His teachings, and follow evil thoughts, well, you know. That kind of action saddens God just as it does you and I. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that He will protect everyone from harm. And, evil abounds in the absence of Goodness. God says the little children will be with him in Heaven. I have read many stories about little kids who died and then came back to life, and they did not want to stay, they wanted to go back to Heaven.

Maybe use this frustration to help a child right there close to you that needs help. God tells US to help those around us, maybe THIS is His way of speaking to you. You are feeling the pulling of your heart strings, and that's a good thing. Even though it hurts, it's better than not feeling at all.

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

Kirk

Here's a book for you. When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner. It can be read it little bits. That's how I had to do it.I could only take so much at a time.

It helped me when I was dealing with pretty much the same issues at the worse time of my life. Maybe it will help you, too?

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

Dear Kirk, Kirk the horror that these children experianced was only a tiny little speck of time, compared to the time that they will spend in eternity. There is a wonderful site that I like to go to when I am questioning things. It is http://near-death.com/. Hm I'm sorry that I don't know how to make a direct link! But this site is awesome, people, and some of them were atheists share their after death experiances.

What about reincarmation Kirk, what do you think about that? What if we chose the life that we are going to live and the circumstances that are going to happen to us? would that explain anything? Tren

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

ditto...the book sharon recommended....helped me also.

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

Kirk,

this was in my mailbox this morning....thought it might help.

Today's Idea "Within each of us, however, there is a reservoir of divine power that responds fully to our invitation to enter and restore us. Whether we call this force God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Jewish shekina, the Atman, the Oversoul, nonviolence, universal love, or whatever other words we wish, it is the all-powerful action of a “higher power.” This power cannot work, however, counter to our free will; it must be invoked or consciously invited into our thought system. Then and only then can the atonement principle free us of the consequences of past mistakes."

-Marianne Williamson (from A Return to Love) (Marianne is the Spiritual Leader of The Church of Today) Today's Affirmation

I invite God into my consciousness now.

Today's Prayer

Dear God, There is a thirst in my soul that only You can satisfy. For me to intellectually know that You are everywhere and in all is only part of the story. Please - direct my thoughts and feelings; guide my understanding. In quiet today, I invite You to rise up within my consciousness. God, the world has many loud voices competing for my attention. Thousands of discordant messages bombard me. I feel like I am straining to hear Your still small voice. Please tune my ears so that I can hear You clearly. Restore my peace and joy, strengthen my willingness to love in an active way. Let me drink Your living waters and quench my thirst; Fill me up God that I might share the location of the well with everyone. Thank You God. Amen.

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

Kirk, Oh golly , it's me again!But I just wanted to say that I know how you feel when you say "the supreme being wont talk to me". Gosh, darn it why doesn't he just streak it across the sky! What I am soppose to do, and what this is all about! I don't like Puzzles, and I don't want to play with one!

Diane, I can just picture you out there in the woods duken it out with God!

Gosh darn him anyhows! Why doesn't he just zoom down here and revise his plan as it obviously isnt working! Did ya ever wonder if God could be an alien? Maybe he just flew in here played around with the elements then zoomed away again?Never to return! I started a poem about that, never finished it.

Is there a song, that we should have written?

Is there a poem that we are soppose to quote?

Where is the playbook? Where is the director?

for we are actors in this play that he wrote!

What kind of charactors does he want us to be?

How dare he write the scrip,then leave!

Do we just make it up as we go along?

And is he gonna yell, if we get it wrong!

What do we do! How can this Be! We need his guidance!

Where can he be?

Was that him I glimped in the morning mist?

Was that him I heard in the Indian's drum?

Is he an elf, that he thinks hiding is fun?

If I look long enough at the evening star,

is that him gazing back from afar?

Was he an alien from a far gallaxy?

the father of you and me?

No Kirk, you don't need Prozac, WC said "you are not obligated to suffer on their account" and he talks about himself taking on the suffering of others. Kirk I think that some people have a strong capacity for empathy, we become infused with otheres pain, actually experiancing it ourselves. You sound as if you are one of these. I know that I am. WC is right about getting away to a quiet place alone.I know that I have to shelter myself now, I let the answering machine answer the phone, I hide away on my little homestead, shielding myself from taking on too much or my energy is zapped by others burdens. sounds selfish, but I have to limit my empathy or I am worn out. And sometimes I think that it is good for me not to read the newspaper nor watch the news on tv. not if it is gonna take my energy. All those problems that I can do nothing about! Maybe it is enough to face what is right before me at this moment.

And Kirk I believe that God does speak to us not allways in an obvious way but allso through friends, through little thoughts and insights that we come across.

Tren

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

I'm reminded of those religious pictures where God or Christ is sitting there surrounded by animals and small children. These pictures seem to say "to be close to God be of innocence, be as children". I've often thought that Innocence is the finger pointing to the devine! So when horrible things happen to the littlest people I always wonder why the devine is not pointing his protecting finger to the innocent!

Anyway thanks for the tip on this book. I'll check it out of the library Today. Thanks for all your comments and concern! Its always a little embarrasing.....love ya....Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

I haven't had time to respond to this thread till now. I second what all the others have said about empathy, but as wierd as this may sound I think the empathy has to extend to the perpatrators also. Its truly sad and tragic that the world turns out the "monsters" that it does but I guess its a sign of the times and a dramatic indication of how twisted and out of synch with "Gods goodness" and perhaps our own "true nature" society has become. And thru that we create such alienation in some people that they feel compeled to act out in the ways they do. On the one hand its not an excuse for the perps but on the other we collectively share some of the responsibility.

Personally I believe there is a "THE WAY" for all to live but other than some vague terms like love, compassion, empathy etc I could only guess at what it is.

But when we view evil and unnecessary suffering I always ask, where did the suffering come from? It's not much of a surprise to learn that most of it comes from the acts of other people, either intentionally or by acts of omission.

To me God gave us free will to "become as Gods" thru the knowledge of good and evil. And in the end we evolve toward love I like to think.

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2001

Sharon; Got the book and I'm half way thru already. Simple, easy to read and very powerful!! Talk later....Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

To clairify a statement , I never said I take on the sufferings of others.I've said I've felt others suffering since I'm a child.Referring to a statement by Tren

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

WC Please forgive me for misunderstanding your statement and thus misquoting you. Many sorrys! What a blessing your insights are. Happy journey. With love Tren

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

No need to apologize Tren, I had just got to wondering if I put my foot in my mouth again.Kirk ,don't you ever sleep ,you were posting at AM hours last night.Remember mother Theresa,she gave her life to help the suffering of others.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

WC I'm in California so it was about midnight. I saw your post come in so I guess its you who stays up!! Are you on the west coast?...Kirk

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

No Kirk I'm in the bible belt, eastern Tennessee,where for some strange reason people here think I'm the anti-Christ and have been wanting to tie me to a stake and burn me alive ,but have been discouraged by new health department rules and a stiff fine for improper disposal of a human body.Some of the new zoning laws here actually protect unconventional homesteaders.I'm getting my body synchronized to west coast time so when my property that's for sale ,sells,And I move out west I won't have to ajust so quickly.Just growing and eating a vegetable nobody here has ever heard of can cause great suspicion. WC

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

White,Honey,in Eastern TN,like Eastern KY,no health dept regulation is going to stop them from roasting you a**,iffin they take a mind to it.Accidents do happen.:o)

Better learn to adapt... or perish.You wanna make like a dinosaur? You're not purple are you? I really don't like purple dinosaurs.

Just some friendly advice from a next door neighbor.Oh I guess you are moving. Never mind,then.

Kirk glad to hear that.I could only take it a little at a time.

I need to get a copy again.I'd loaned mine out years back to someone who needed it. Could stand to read a line or two myself,from time to time.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 2001

Sharon ,on the contrary, they must learn to adapt or they will perish.Hatred is the fruit of cowards.I have no desire to share in their fears.I'm leaving cause cowards are weak,lazy, shallow, selfish and they bore me and they can't abid by their own laws they set.I surely wouldn't want to adapt to those qualities.I am a mirror not a dinosaur and what people see in me is the reflection of their own soul.In other words they hate themselves and what they are.They just need someone to blame, it's easier then working on themselves.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

The trail of tears was no accident

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

WC

We do not know each other,do we? No,I guess not.He doesn't live in TN.

I joke around alot.My way of staying alive.I was joking around with you.Evidently you did not take it as such.Apologies extended.

Dang,I forgot to put on my smiley face,again :o)

However,I have lived here 10 yrs and I believe you do have to make adjustments if you want to live in the hills.If you don't,can't or won't,then it is best to leave.They (we,as I feel adopted) are proud people who don't like someone coming in and acting superior and telling them what to do. Can't blame them,can you? Alot more history goes in to that.More than I have time for.Suffice it to say the civil war was particularly hard on folks from the hills. Then the coal barons from back east came.

Not pretty.

I've learned alot from my hillbilly friends.Alot.And,I'm still learning what makes them tick. But then,I've learned alot whereever I've found myself.

And yes,I b*tch too,but I stay.I guess the dirt here gets in your blood,if you let it.But it takes time. Good things are worth the wait.

I can't believe I'm defending my neighbors. Irony.It probably does not sound like it, but I believe I do understand your frustration.I have been there,as well.

Frankly,WC,one is sometimes a mirror, but sometimes a catalyst,as well.Never just one or the other.None of us are that pure.Not even me, and I'm just so darn special! :oD Woops,there goes that pesky sense of humor,again.

hey must adapt or perish? I can't help but find that statement to be exceedingly strange.What do you mean by that?

Weakness? Again,what are you talking about? Are you pretty angry with me? Your statements are odd,to me. Were they made in anger?

What someone see as weak is not necessarily,so. Perhaps you are seeing a reflection back.I don't know,only you can know that.Perhaps I just really riled you. Again,sorry if I did.It was not intended as such.I hope you understand that.

And,too bad you were not able to feel comfortable in the hills.You are not alone in that,however.Many don't,and they leave.Some adapt and stay and add their wonderful and unique flavor to the mix,and we are better for it.Don't know what else to tell you.

You know what is best,for you.

Re:the trail. No accident? Thank you for your understanding.

Alot of people from the hills have cherokee blood in them. They ran here to hide,when the rest were rounded up.If you know the history,then you know that as well, I expect.So I'm preaching to the choir?

So are you. But then,you would not know that,since you don't know me,right?

What time did you write this?

I've also sent this to you in you by email,since I didn't know if you would check back here.Hope that was OK.I don't wish to impose.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001

Well, the email came back Mailer Daemon ,so you don't have a valid email addy.I don't either,so guess I'll just hope you check back on this thraed.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2001