A fairly new goat owner, two years?, has asked me about CAE. I am very biased, I believe negative is the only way to go. (We developed a CAE negative, abscess free herd when we went from grades to purbreds in 1982. We haven't had any of the health problems associated with CAE since.)I know there is much information in the archives but I would like to have a condensed and totally current response to print out for her. I also know there are many different views on the subject and feel she should make up her own mind based on all sides of the issue. Thank-you to all who respond.

-- Nancy Bakke-McGonigle Mn. Sunset (dmcgonig@smig.net), June 01, 2001

Answers

Response to CAE, how concerned are you?

There is a lot of useful info about CAE on this site. http://www.saanendoah.com/wsucae.html

My personal viewpoint? If she is just getting started, why not start out on the right foot? for crying out loud, there's no reason to buy diseased stock when, with a little discretion and planning you can buy clean stock and not have to worry about it. Then there is the issue of selling. if you're honest that the goats have CAE, how many people are going to want to buy them? Not too many, though you might find a few. Don't ask, don't tell, isn't exactly an honest way to go about doing business,and it certainly doesn't help the dairy goat. Flat out lying ought to be punishable by law! I was careful, questioned sellers closely, and had a negative herd for years, even though they were dam raised. I wasn't careful enough. I bought two does, from two different people. One said that her doe had tested negative, but had been running wih positive stock. Foolishly, I bought her- she was tempting at just over a hundred dollars, registered and milking 16 lbs a day. Her production went down after I bought her, and I couldn't keep any flesh on her no matter how much I fed her. I began to get suspicious, and tested her-sure enough, she had CAE. We butchered her, to the sorrow of my children, as she was very friendly and loving. The second doe was purchased from someone who sold her as 'guaranteed negative'. She was purchased as a young doeling by my four year old son. Funny thing about Beauty, she always had a runny nose, and she never grew as well as the others. I thought maybe it was the dust, or possibly mold, etc. All summer long my little boy worked with that kid, training her to lead, playing with her. He entered her in the county fair and showed her himself. He was so proud of the blue ribbon he won! When I ran the yearly CAE test, Beauty was the only positive. With an entire herd of negative stock, and not enough time or room to quarantine her, we gave her way to someone for meat. when I contacted the sellers, they acted put out when I informed them that they'd sold us a positive goat. There certainly wasn't any refund on their 'guarantee'! My son still asks why we had to get rid of his goat.

After these two episodes, I became very wary of buying from anyone. I purchased only from one or two friends that I knew. One was a friend whose entire herd had been built from my stock and nothing else, so I could be confident that her herd was negative. The other friend was one I didn't know as well, but she had a very good reputation. Her stock was seperated at birth and raised on pasteurized milk. I bought quite a few animals from her, and I was willing to pay well for them. They were worth it. One of these animals has now recently tested positive. The real heartache is that I didn't test her right after buying her, and that I continued my dam raising program (none of the dam raised kids had ever come up positive). Not only this doe, but all her kids, a valuable kid that was bottle fed on her raw milk, and three kids that have drunk her daughters milk, are all now positive, or can be expected to become so soon. Thousands of dollars down the drain! Not to mention years worth of work in keeping a negative herd.

I now find myself facing a serious dilemna. Do I just chuck all the positive goats, the best in my herd, with irreplacable bloodlines? Quarantine the very best and pasteurize their kids? Sell everyone and start over? Throw in the towel and go against everything I believe in by keeping a diseased herd and selling diseased stock to others (misery loves company?)I've decided to quarantine and pasteurize, but it'll be a lot of work, and a very long time before I can dam raise with confidence again. Here's what I do know: I will be VERY careful about ever buying stock again, no matter how tempting the production or bloodlines. If I do buy stock, I'll ask to see negative results whether the kids are snatched at birth or not. Most importantly, regardless of test results shown by the sellers, I will test every animal for CAE before it joins the main herd. And I will be testing twice a year for some time- fall (why feed a positive doe over the winter unless she is really special) and before kidding (in order to take special precautions at the birth if necessary).

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), June 01, 2001.

Response to CAE, how concerned are you?

I heard from one of the goat breeders around here that when he was cleaning up his heard of CAE (years ago) he had a doe that was CAE poitive and although the kids she had were seperated from birth and all colestrum and milk were pasturized the kids tested positive for CAE.

-- SM Steve (a12goat@cs.com), June 01, 2001.

Response to CAE, how concerned are you?

What about other diseases? like Johnnees, and staff mastitis shouldn't all animals that a person is considering buying be tested for these also? There are a lot of problems with livestock besides CAE, and all of them are devistating, and costly. Shouldn't the breeder be willing to test potential animals that are being sold before selling them. CL and Johnnees can also be passed through the milk,Starting negative is the only responsible way to go , breeders that have been in the buisness for years can't afford to just throw their genitics away by slaughtering their positive animals but new breeders can go along way to keeping these diseases under control by purchasing negative animals to begin with, anytime that a new or older breeder can maintain a closed herd with bringing in new genitics by the way of tested semen they are going to save their selves, agony in the furure. Have the animals tested that you are considering,if the breeder doesn't want to test the animals find another breeder, there are lots of wonderful animals around and the negative ones don't eat any more that the positives

-- Diane in idaho (oleoranch3@aol.com), June 01, 2001.

Response to CAE, how concerned are you?

Such a dilemma, all that work, time, testing, and money (not to mention worry) and unless you keep a buck, every time you breed you run the risk of infection... how much equipment does AI take? Has anyone used AI in a backyard venture?

-- Cynthia Capodestria (ccapodestria@metrocast.net), June 01, 2001.

Response to CAE, how concerned are you?

This won't answer your question directly, but it's an interesting related point. (Rebekah, you Might find this interesting, too.) A friend recently told me about a study being done (she's getting me a copy of the info if anyone's interested)regarding CAE positive milk in California. It seems that a family raising CAE positive goats was approached by a California Univ. and asked to provide blood sample from themselves and their goats. While CAE is species specific and does not infect humans, the blood of these owners (who were drinking the CAE Positive milk) DID show signs of CAE antibodies. The HIV virus was introduced to the human blood with CAE antibodies in it, and it seems that the HIV virus is being overcome. Now, obviously, the studies are not complete, and aren't even in the human trial stage. But wouldn't that be a nightmare to kill off the CAE virus by slaughtering the positive goats,(ala FMD) and then find out that it DID have some effect on HIV and AIDS? While I wouldn't suggest that anyone run out and buy CAE goats, I don't believe that it should automatically mean that the animal should be put to death. Just a thought....

-- Kristin, in La. (positivekharma@aol.com), June 02, 2001.

Response to CAE, how concerned are you?

This might be lengthy, so I'll apologize in advance. I first went looking for goats in 1994. DH had put his foot down about no more than a 100 mile radius, not counting ferries. I searched for MONTHS--if you don't belong to ADGA yet, and therefore have the directory, they are tough to find. While searching, we added the goatshed onto the barn, remodeled the barn to include a milkroom, and built milkstands, hayracks, etc. (We had always had a Guernsey milk cow before, so it was a prety extensive remodel) I finally joined ADGA, got the directory, and and found 2 breeders within the 100 mile limit. One had never heard of CAE, and was just "sure" there was no problem. They also didn't have any proof of what their does gave for milk, no health records, and their place was a sty. Moved onto the 2nd. This gal knew more about goats than I could ever hope to know!! Her herd was sparkling clean, she had complete records (including DHIR) she had won many many BUIS, BDIS, etc. And was asking about $400. per doe. She pointed out every fault each doe had--this one's got too much slope to the rump, this one's legs aren't straight enough, etc. She gave us quite a discertation on CAE, and how important it was NOT to have it.Her goats were gorgeous, but the price too steep, and we passed. She called me about 4 months later, and her gorgeous milkers had all tested CAE positive! She was miserable! She decided to sell off her entire herd, and slaughter off all her young stock. No lies, no deceit.And $100.00 per doe. I got 3 from her, all first fresheners, one giving 12 pounds a day, one giving 10 pounds, and one giving 8 pounds a day. All went very well until breeding season. The 12 lb aday milker didn't breed (but she milked through 'til the following year, always at 12 lbs a day) the 10 lb a day milker kidded with 3 beautiful does, and a hard udder. We managed to get maybe 2 Tablespoons of colostrum out of her, there was no way to heat treat it, being such a minute amount,so I reluctingly devided it between the kids, and then fed them from then on with pasturized milk from the first doe. After the hard udder, Angel went downhill fast, the big knees, the disjointed hocks, and just generally miserable. We had to cull her. The third doe had a HUGE buck kid and died of complications from the birth. So we kept one of the triplet does just to keep our 12 lb a day milker company. She (Mocha) kidded the next year, with a doe and 2 bucks. We heat treated and pasturized, sold the bucks for meat--Mocha was giving 18 lbs a day! Our intention was to get replacement daughters out of her, that were CAE negative, with the same milk production as their mother. But trying to assume the pasturizing is working is scarey stuff. Since then, we have managed to get only 2 does out of her, and then only 1 doe out of her daughters, but the daughters are doing okay--about 10 lbs per milking, but we freshened her first granddaughter this year, and she's doing 8 lbs a milking as a first freshener! So, IMHO, you have to fight CAE with everything you've got, but don't give up on the bloodlines if they are great. Kathie p.s. Thanks to Vicki's help, with that new CAE test from Pan Am Labs, all my young goats have tested Negative. But when you know you have positive stock you have to test, heat treat and pasturize. And when you have to see what a doe that is positive goes through, you will really realize what a horrible, horrible disease this is!

-- Kathie in Western Washington (twinrosefarm@worldnet.att.net), June 02, 2001.

I was not going to reply to any responses because I wanted this to be other peoples' opinions and experiences. But, I really want to say something at this point. We quit showing our goats in 1994 because one of the milking does we showed tested suspect. (We know we had followed all the precautions recommended at the time for showing and since our herd was closed otherwise, it was the only form of contact with other goats. Our vet believes she was exposed enough to begin producing antibodies but she did not develope a positive test while we had her. She and the entire kid crop from that year were culled. We did not sell kids again until 1998, after four years of negative testing. ANY contact with positive animals should not be allowed when developing a negative herd.

-- Nancy Bakke-McGonigle Mn. Sunset (dmcgonig@smig.net), June 02, 2001.

Make it part of the sale that the animals be tested. Only accept tests from a vet who will read the tatoo's or bring somebody to the farm with you to pull blood. I have even sold animals with a third party holding the money until the tests came back. It doesn't do a whole lot of good to purchase animals with a negative test without seeing a whole herd test also. And though I comply nothing irks me more than to test my does again for a sale, where she is being sold into a herd of nontested does! I have seen many times does sold from negative herds who then convert to positive at the new owners farm. CL abscess usually appear at the new farm also, though the doe and herd has no abscess at the old farm. Stress pays a big role in the movement of these viruses. Remember that the blood test will be negative for CAE if she doesn't have the virus active in her body, but it will always be positive on colostrum. So colostrum test your does. In my experience with CAE, it is not passed casually. I would never use a CAE positive buck on my girls, but I do not believe it is passed sexually. When we whole herd tested the first time back in the late 80's, not everybody was positive, something that would not be true if this was as casually passed as most folks think. Besides the milk and the colostrum, kidding has to be the next point of transmission with all your does in contact with other does birth fluids and placentas, the reason I use maternity pens. I also think most folks are the key to the passing of CAE in their herds. Visiting farms doing my amature vetting I see poor bio-security all the time. I don't believe for a second that anyone catches CAE at shows, even if the judge checks one does mouth or teats and then checks yours. In 12 years of showing I have never seen blood at a show. Now I have had another breeder allow a group of my kids to finish her kids lambar!!!! I do not show kids for this reason. I think everything with goats comes down to what has personally happened to you. Since I started and purchased known CAE positive does who lived wonderfully productive lives to 12 and 13, both with symptoms (which we helped with herbal rememdies) and not, I don't have the doom and gloom attitude about CAE. I do however know that economically it would put me out of business very quickly. Ironically I do not pasturise for CAE, I do know it stops staph mastitis spread from dam to daughter and I simply don't have outbreaks of mycoplasma, something that is putting another breeder out of business here in Texas (untreatable and totally avoidable with pasturising). I also feel that like with HIV and German Measles, a small number of does will have a break down in the placenta allowing the virus to infect the kids inutero, I test infants before purchase, simply because if they are positive, than somebody has CAE or is pasturising milk with the virus in it, both things that are unacceptable for me to spend my money on. Every breeder has does who freshen with unshowable udders, the number one best resource for family milkers. I also feel it is somewhat missleading to new folks to tout your herd as completely negative for CAE. Something that we simply don't know. All we can really say is that as of January 2001 all my adult does and bucks tested negative for having the titer. The number one best way of knowing your CAE prevention program is working is to test animals after sales, and after they have kidded at the new farm. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

Thank you for pointing out to me my unfinished sentence. I do pasturise, but CAE is not the only thing I pasturise for. Sorry. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 03, 2001.

Thank-you to all who responded. I was hoping for more pro / con to balance out the information that I have already given her, but maybe these responses show that CAE is a concern to reputable breeders.

Just FYI I'll explain our situation (maybe you'll understand why I wanted to be able to offer our friend some less extreme measures). We started with a small herd of "just goats". After having them for several years we decided to make the jump to purbred. By then we were aware of several serious health conditions (The best source of CAE and CL information at the time were the annual Dairy Goat conferences hosted by the MDGA at which Dr Sherman of the U of M spoke. He also wrote articles for the Caprine News).We decided to concentrate on herd health above all else. We sold all our grade stock and between 1982 and 1984 we purchased enough "neg" kids to create a gene pool, so that we would not have to introduce any new animals for years. The veterinarian I was working for at the time (I received my vet med tech degree in 1974)was persuaded to do the blood testing for CAE. We began whole herd testing 2/17/1983. All tests were neg until one suspect in 1994. All tests on kids or does sold to neg herds remained negative. The only time one of our does tested positive was when she had been sold to a positive testing herd and the test was done after she had been in the herd for a year.(We never guarantee stock going to positive herds) We had not introduced new stock to the herd. A neg buck kid was leased in 1988 but he was kept at the neighbor's place. The limited buck service we offered was provided to healthy does only and with the servicing done away from any area our does may come in contact with. Needless to say the doe brought for service had to be in standing heat and was on our place for only the time required to be bred, usually only minutes! The only contact our does had with any positive animals was at the goat shows, and then we tried to keep them isolated. (When I would judge at county fairs or 4-H shows I would use a sani-wipe on my hands between each animal when checking mouths. I didn't think there was a possible problem, but I wasn't going to take a chance.)The suspect doe was tested two more times but always tested suspect. We had been hoping for a mistake in the testing, can happen, but we had to admitt she was no longer negative. She was culled and so were all kids from that year's kid crop. (We felt we couldn't guarantee their health.) All our other animals remained negative and have done so. We TOTALLY closed our herd in 1994, yet we didn't feel comfortable selling kids again until 1998.

Our herd policies are extreme, but as many of the people who responded stated; after you have seen what CAE can do you do not want to go through it.(By the way, I don't believe anyone mentioned the kid deaths that result when they contact the encephalitis form). Once again, thank-you; and may you always enjoy your goats!

-- Nancy Bakke-McGonigle Mn. Sunset (dmcgonig@smig.net), June 05, 2001.

About the encephalitis form that affects the kids, i had a buck kid die last spring, and I never even thought about it at the time, but it probably was CAE induced encephalitis. He was bottle fed, along with another kid, who is now positive, on pooled raw milk, which included that from the doe that is now positive. The details and progression can be found in the archives (probably in goat health) under-Help, help! Very sick buck kid! He died within hours.

-- Reflex (daniel1@itss.net), June 05, 2001.