WhiteCG,

You wrote in the thread "Thank God for Courage",

"Scott,

You asked what is gray about abortion. How about rape, incest, and saving the life of the mother? You may not agree with these...but they account for only 2% of abortions and it would be a step in the right direction to permit these to eliminate the 98%."

In reading these words, a question was raised in my mind. It seemed appropriate to begin a new thread.

How is it that rape, incest, or the saving the life of a mother is justification for taking the life of an infant? I am asking this question seriously. I am interested in your theological, philisophical and Scripturally consistent reasoning in this matter. Your definitions of words and basic principles would be helpful as well.

I am assuming, in that I asked the question, that murder means taking life without the authority from God to do so. Also that murder is sin. I would also make the assumption that life begins at conception. (I believe that this is more firm than assumption based upon the OT's laws concerning the harming of a pregnant woman and the infant that she carries in her womb, as well as other incites and inferences in the Bible.)

I suppose the question I am looking for an answer to is this, Where is the Scriptural justification for abortion in any situation at all that would make the abortion justifiable homicide (a killing) versus it being murder (taking a life without authority from God)?

Then, compare what is found with what the Scripture does say that may touch on this matter. Given that the information that is gathered is correct, the answer should be obvious as to whether there are any gray areas concerning the issue of abortion. I would also suggest that the conclusion will lead us toward more wisdom when we look into our political situations here in these United States of America.

Give it some Prayer, Study and Thought along with me.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Answers

Go ahead David, beat him to a pulp!

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

I believe all murder is killing, and therefore all abortion is wrong...I would try to deliver the fetus, even if pre-mature, rather than simply evacuate and toss it aside. But it seems odd to me when you say killing with authority to do so is OK. WHO ARE WE to decide to kill? If you blow my head off you are breaking the law, but if 12 people vote to cut my head off that is OK??? How stupid!

And Mr. Laurence, why do you want him to "beat me to a pulp"? II have done nothing to merit such.

The other point I was trying to make, about "gray" areas, was simply that in a civil democracy not all persons, even of good conscience, share the same convictions, and therefore compromise in legistlation is sometimes necessary, which is one reason I would not make a good politician. Many of you would vote to outlaw all abortion. I would vote to permanently dismantle the military. Now I know you will lnot agree, but you are guilty of just as much inconsistency as me.

There is no such thing as innocent life. We are born in sin. So you guys bear the burden of believing some killingis moral and some immoral. I bear the burden of believing that while it is all immoral some maybe should be legal and some not. But don't you dare come off as morally superior to me, for as we say here in Appalachia, "You ain't."

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

David, the morally superior thing was directed at Eric and not you.

Theologically I cannot support what I have written except to say we do not live in a theocracy as they did in the OT, yet in Romans 13 Paul said submit to governing authorities, even when we think they are wrong. Now if they try to get you to renounce Christ you should not submit to their DEMAND, but even so you still submit to them by taking the consequences. Resistance is not part of the picture.

I was not trying to justify abortion, I abhor it. I was trying to say that not all people in the "choice" camp deserve the bad rap conservatives give them. They are not evil, just misguided, just like many on this forum are who believe self-defense is OK.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

CGWhite,

If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying that you believe it is 'right' to support legislation that allows abortion. Specifically, abortion for cases of rape, incest or when the life of the mother is in danger? The justification for this is that we live in a society that allows this and we should not resist it? " But on the other hand, you believe that to abort an infant is 'wrong' as a rule? The justification is that no life should be "killed"? (according to your given definition of the word kill)

I am honestly trying to understand your position and its reason. I notice that you said that the "other" side is just as inconsistent in other areas. I am sure you realize that comparisons of this type don't justify anything. My mother often said, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

In response to your thoughts on "all killing is murder", we may have to agree to disagree. However, I believe that you will find much evidence in the Bible for God not only allowing killing, but commanding it. (Neither of us would say that what God did was wrong) Assuming that it is God that has the authority to take life, for He is the giver of life, then He also has the authority to allow others to do so according to His will. This is the reason that God can "KILL" and that killing is not "MURDER". Also, it is the same reason that man can "KILL" and it is not "MURDER". Even in the "Ten Commandments" the word of choice by the Holy Spirit was "Thou shalt not murder." This is a major difference from what the KJV had translated as "Thou shalt not kill."

In that Paul instructed the church in Rome as to their relationship with the government, wicked as it was, they were to recognize what God's purpose for government was. They do not bear the sword in vain. How is it that I bear responsibility for the sin of killing when I support by vote and encourage in word, the government carrying out God's purposes? Would I not be held responsible by God for not supporting what is His will for the government?

I realize that you do not believe that it is any government's job to protect the innocent and defend itself from the evil ones in the world. I consider it quite amazing how all through out the Bible, God has used governments to bring about His will. He is wiser than Satan and all his minions. God has frustrated Satan's plans time and time again by simply using His own creation to work His will. God uses the evil and the righteous to work His will. In His wisdom, God has marvelously provided for the wicked to be punished by their own hands. It is not the Christian that needs to bear that responsibility unless they do not support the will of God.

I can only imagine that these thoughts cause consternation in your mind. You may be considering the thoughts, "How convenient for Dave's conscience to allow this to go on and dismiss his responsibility." One the contrary, I see my responsibility is to God first and foremost. Explain to Noah, Job, Paul, and others just how important it is to submit to God's plan even if it seems for conflict with their own rationale. As precious as life is, obeying the will of God is more precious.

If you can consider the difference between 'murder' and 'killing' as we see illustrated in the Bible, it may open up for you an understanding that you may otherwise have not considered.

One last thing, you stated,

"I believe all murder is killing, and therefore all abortion is wrong...I would try to deliver the fetus, even if pre-mature, rather than simply evacuate and toss it aside. But it seems odd to me when you say killing with authority to do so is OK."

Consider the Biblical difference between killing and murder.

"WHO ARE WE to decide to kill?"

Depends upon who the WE are. The government is the one who has authority to do so, by God's permission. (bye the bye, even though Jesus told Peter to put His sword away, I wonder why He allowed Peter to carry it at all for what may be assumed the last 3 years, or to carry it on this particular night?)

"If you blow my head off you are breaking the law,"

Consider the above and then realize that in some cases, it would not be 'breaking the law' to blow your head off.

"but if 12 people vote to cut my head off that is OK???"

I don't know of any case in the Bible wherein God gave an ok to cut anyone's head off. I do remember stoning being sanctioned. (point of humor: If I had a choice between those two, assuming I had to die, I would choose to have my head cut off.)

"How stupid!"

Stupid? HMMMMMMMMMM?

Abortion: Is it wrong to murder the innocent baby in the womb? Yes.

Is there any Biblical justification to call it a justifiable killing? No.

In any case, situation or senerio (Biblical Justification that is). NO.

Is it a sin to murder? yes.

Conclusions,,, anyone???

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Anyone else see a glaring inconsistency here? Not to mention the fact that the question was about abortion, and Mr. White threw up the capital punishment smokescreen to try to deflect us away from the real issue. The inconsistency I see is this. Mr. White says on the one hand that we need to support abortion laws because we live in a sinful society that permits it ... and on the other hand, he says we should expect this sinful society to accept and promote Christian ideals with regards to caring for the poor. Go figure.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

John

You completely misunderstand me.

I am not saying to support any abortion laws...I am saying that when we disobdy it must be civil disobedience, rather than the kind of people who murder the abortion doctors, etc. The way to overcome abortion is by the model of ML King and Gahndi. (And I am not saying Gahndi is saved, I am simply saying the most effective witness is always non-violent.)

As far as my inconsistency goes, I have admimtted as much, but the conservatives on this forum are just as inconsistent and not honest enough to say so.

If you believein capital punishment, even if you are against abortion, you cannot call yourself "pro-life". You can claim to be "anti-abortion." Anti-abortion is good and I am all for it, but the so called "pro-life" community is more inconsistent than I.

If we want to talk pro-life, then lets be honest. Most of you would call down God's wrath on someone who had an abortion, but may the Lord be accursed before you would advocate the government or society to lift a finger to improve the quality of life for those lives you supposedly would save.

One last point, there is room for difference of opinion about when life begins. Clinically, life ends when the heart stops beating. One could make a rational argument that therefore life starts when the heart STARTS beating, which is not until around day 25 after conception. God knew Jeremiah before conception. Should we ban contraception??? (That would be the pro-life logic carried all the way out. Shoot...if life begins before conception, then let's go all the way and be new age and believe in reincarnation.--To quote Paul, "I am speaking as one out of my mind.")

John, with all do respect, and I have visited your web site and like much of what I read, I do not think you are hearing what I am trying to say. Maybe I am not writing clearly, maybe you are not reading carefully, maybe both. But I am not this liberal pagan that you guys think I am. I am very conservative, but I am also rational.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

David, you write:

If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying that you believe it is 'right' to support legislation that allows abortion. Specifically, abortion for cases of rape, incest or when the life of the mother is in danger? The justification for this is that we live in a society that allows this and we should not resist it? " But on the other hand, you believe that to abort an infant is 'wrong' as a rule? The justification is that no life should be "killed"? (according to your given definition of the word kill)

-----------

I am NOT saying it is right to support such laws. It is right to RESPECT such laws, and protest against them in lawful ways only or the witness of the protest is undermined.

I am NOT saying I am for abortion in cases of rape, incest, and the life of the mother. I am simply saying there is room here for people to disagree with a conscience clean before God. My concern is over the INTENT, to take a life. A man died in my car once in an accident. Neither myself nor the man who hit my car intended for him to die. Was it murder? No. I stated that in cases of the necessity of terminating pregnancy I think it should be done with every effort made to spare BOTH lives, mother and child. One problem with abortion is that there is INTENT to take life.

But that is also a problem with capital punishment--the intent is to kill. And it is just as wrong. If a murderer who lives in my neighborhood but has not been brought to justice is walking down the street and I shoot him out my window and kill him, is that OK? Of course not...is 12 people voting to kill him any different, Hades No.

The problem with you guys is you completely fail to understand how the New Testament supplements and in cases supersedes the Old Testamnet. In the OT only one thing mattered, keeping the nation of Israel intact long enough for the Messiah to come. Now, we are not under law but grace. Law is passe'. That does not mean we can just do as we please, but it does mean the way we deal with wrongdoing is dramatically altered. Christians must even deal retribution to wrongdoers in ways which model grace. We are not in the OT any more.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Scott,

I was merely sarcactic. You took my post the wrong way.

Cheers,

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

A lot of abortionist reasoning is illogical

If abortion for rape and incest were okay, then wouldn't it be okay to go around the city hunting down adults born as a product of rape or incest?

If life begins at birth, then there are other people who are not protected by the law. There are plenty of people who were never born., but were rather removed from their mother's wombs through a C-section operation. If life legally begins at birth, then if someone murders an adult born through a C-section operation, he should have a case for getting off scott free.

Some abortionists say that someone is not human until he can breathe on his own. If that is the case, then if you pull the plug on someone who has a machine to help them breathe in the hospital, that shouldn't legally be considered murder. If breathing makes us human, then we must not be human between breaths. If breathing makes human life valuable, then it should not be against the law to kill a swimmer so long as he is under the water. After all, he's holding his breath.

Neither sins of one's parnts, being born, nor breathing make us human. It is murder to kill someone in cold blood even if he is a product of rape, taken out through a C-section, and happens to be swimming under water.

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2001

CGWhite,

Thank you for your responses. I am glad that my perceptions of your words were wrong. You can understand my concern when you post appeared to affirm abortion. Any way, thanks for the clarification.

There is another point that I would like clarified, if you will. You wrote:

"I believe all murder is killing, and therefore all abortion is wrong...I would try to deliver the fetus, even if pre-mature, rather than simply evacuate and toss it aside. But it seems odd to me when you say killing with authority to do so is OK. WHO ARE WE to decide to kill? If you blow my head off you are breaking the law, but if 12 people vote to cut my head off that is OK??? How stupid!"

In your study of the Biblical languages, do you have an understanding of the difference between murder and killing. You wrote that all murder is killing. I accept that. But my question is, "Is all killing murder?" Please feel free to note the differences in words used in the Bible for the two, and also note that there is much killing going on in the Bible not only by God, but by Israel, and in the New Testament, by the Holy Spirit. How do you understand the difference in these two terms. And, therefore come to a conclusion on this matter?

Still studying

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2001

CGWhite,

One other point to consider, as if you don't have enough to consider. (hee hee) You made the statement that there is no one innocent.

"There is no such thing as innocent life. We are born in sin. So you guys bear the burden of believing some killingis moral and some immoral. I bear the burden of believing that while it is all immoral some maybe should be legal and some not. But don't you dare come off as morally superior to me, for as we say here in Appalachia, "You ain't."

I assume that you mean there is no one innocent in the eyes of God. Specifically you mean the infant. I am assuming you mean this for it followed my comment about aborting an innocent infant in the womb.

I don't think we would argue that there is such a thing as innocence as pertaining the law. There are numerous references pertaining the innocent as to their treatment. (Exodus 23: 7 - do not put to death the innocent - for example)

There is, however, an instance in Jeremiah 19:4 that refers to the innocent.

"'Hear the Word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says; Listen! I am going to bring disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal - something that I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind."

How do you understand the reference to the innocent sons that were sacrificed wrongfully in the Old Testament, as declared by God Himself?

I would assume that we would both agree that this is not a reference to innocence according to law. What is the case here is that innocent life is being sacrificed. This life is innocent and does not warrant death of any kind, whether in the name of sacrifice, punishment, or any other reason. I remind the reader here, that God is the one who declares these sons to be innocent. These are not the opinions of Jeremiah, myself or anyone else. God says they are innocent.

The sons were declared as innocent by God Himself, therefore, to say that no one is innocent is an incorrect assumption. Now we are left to reason, How is it that sons, in this case, can be declared as innocent? Leaves some room for thinking in regard to innocent children, does it not?

P.S. I am still interested in your understanding of murder and killing.

Still studying,

-- Anonymous, June 01, 2001

CGWhite,

I can imagine you are a pretty busy person. I know, my schedule erupts on me every so often.

When you get a chance to discuss these couple of questions I have asked you, and we get to some kind of conclusion, we may have a chance to discuss whether the issue of "INTENT" is relevant to this discussion or not.

But, we can do that after we deal with these other questions.

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001

David

You are correct about my being busy. As a husband, dad, preacher, and editor/writer I have plenty to do.

I need to get to your questions. I will say that I agree with you on how you characterize my statement about innocence. I need to further develop this train of thought.

Have a wonderful day in the Lord.

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001

Two illustrations.

In our congregation we have a young woman who 5 years ago became pregnant as the result of a rape. She is a beautiful woman inside and out who was devasted. She was just out of high school and living with her parents. They prayed and the only decision they could entertain was to keep the baby. Shortly after he was born, she married her childhood sweetheart. They since have a second son. They are strong believers and a strong family. Faith and Grace are a powerful cocktail for overcoming evil with good.

2. When I lived in Scotland, my son's best friend was supposed to have been aborted. His mother said that she was told her life was in serious jeopardy and the hospital routinely scheduled an abortion. The morning of the procedure,a MUSLIM doctor asked her in passing why she was having an abortion. When she explained it, he looked her in the eye and said, "And who are you to determine that your life is the more important of the two. Are you God?" She first got angry, then wept then left the hospital. The boy was born just fine and is now a college graduate working in his home town. The mother is fine and serving Christ with much zeal.

Hmmmm.......

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2001