http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20010404.htm Rumor has it that the Rainbow gathering is going to be in our neck of the woods this year (northern Idaho area). The local newspapers have already spewed out articles warning about the crime, drug use,etc they anticipate. The article above is written from a more friendly point of view and printed in the alternative paper.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

Answers

Great article, Rebekah! Thanks for posting it.

And yep, as peaceful anarchists they are a HUGE threat to the Feds. I'm sure our so-called "government" will do their damndest to find *some* way to demonize these people in order to more effectively persecute them.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

Wow, thanks Rebekah, I have been so isolated until I got on the forums. I never even heard of this before.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

We had a pagan group meet on a private farm one county over.You should have seen the stink that made here in fundamental baptist country.Oh my...Devil worship,animal sacrifices...blah,blah,blah.Especially bc they were going to be naked at a skyclad ceremony.They had to cancel that part, bc of the uproar.So it's not just federal land that is the issue.It's just back to being different..Why don't they meet on a private farm,anyway?

Nick was going to offer our farm for the pagans,not because he's a avid follower,but bc he likes to make waves sometimes.And it would have ticked off the neighbors.And he likes seeing naked women :oD He said he'd pass on the naked men,tho.

Hey,he said it,I didn't! :o)

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

Oops,should have read the article first. Got the point, this time. Root of the problem still not addressed.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

Nick was going to offer our farm for the pagans,not because he's a avid follower,but bc he likes to make waves sometimes.And it would have ticked off the neighbors.And he likes seeing naked women :oD He said he'd pass on the naked men,tho.

Heh!

I like the 'ticking off the neighbors' and the 'naked women' part, too - especially the naked women part! Nick's sounding more and more like my kind of guy... (big grin)

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Jim you would be surprised at some of the things Nick says and does.I'm not anymore.He cracks me up,tho.

It's funny bc people at work never knew that side of him.They would look at me really funny when I teased him, bc noone dared mess with Nick at work.They thought I was suicidal! But I've always gotten away with it.

He gets special "favors", I get special dispensation.That's the way it works at our house.

Oh Jim.I need to ask you this question.I asked Nick, and he said it sounded like the kind of question I needed to ask you ,bc he doesn't get into philosophy much and you do. So here goes :oD

How come seeing a man's naked butt is considered funny but seeing a woman's naked butt is viewed as pornography?

Boy,maybe I needed to take this over to another thread. Now Rebekah is probably blushing.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

How come seeing a man's naked butt is considered funny but seeing a woman's naked butt is viewed as pornography?

I don't know, sharon... Is this one of those Zen koans I've heard about? ;-)

Seriously, here's a question back at you: why do some feminists view heterosexuals engaging in sexual acts on film or in print as demeaning to women but have nothing to say about lesbian porn being demeaning? I've wondered about that from time to time and yes, I know if I'm thinking of something as trivial as that I probably SHOULD get more of a life... ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Jim wrote: Seriously, here's a question back at you: why do some feminists view heterosexuals engaging in sexual acts on film or in print as demeaning to women but have nothing to say about lesbian porn being demeaning?

Well, the snarky answer is that you can ALWAYS find some one who's cheesed-off about something. We saw that with the dust-ups at CS, didn't we? There are prickly, easily offended people everywhere. Sometimes, I are one of them . . . :-(

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Sexual acts are demeaning if they involve imbalance of power. Historically, men have had more power than women and thus tend to be held in more suspicion for exploitation in sexual films (perhaps.) I'm not a lesbian (nor do I play one on teevee) but I would think that either it is true that there would be more equity in a lesbian sexual act, or it is assumed that there would be (like, who studies this?)

Guess I really should go read Rebekah's link, now, huh!

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

The Rainbows can gather at our farm anytime, I'm all for naked men's butts running amuck, and other half has a fine appreciation of LOOKING at naked female butts, as well!

While I am not a practitioner of alternative lifestyle choices, nor do I play one on TV either, I am open to other people making such choices, and will constantly fight the "battle" to allow them to be able to make such a choice, and still be considered a valuable member of society as such.

Equal rights for all does not exempt anyone! The old hippy speaks!

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Ok, Jim, I'll take this one. :)

First of all, I take issue with the assumptions inherent in your original statement........I'm sure there are "....some feminists (who) view heterosexuals engaging in sexual acts on film or in print as demeaning to women", but my guess would be that their numbers would be very small, especially in comparison with fringe groups who would much more likely be offended.

Secondly, I would bet my bippy that "but have nothing to say about lesbian porn being demeaning?" is not an accurate account either.

Like sheepish mentioned , its all about power. I'm sure you all know (!) that the vast majority of porn is pretty poor quality stuff, produced by men for men, and usually contains a ludicrous lesbian scene or two which bears no resemblance to reality! As far as nothing being said about it, well sorry Jim but there have been volumes written about it over the years, but I doubt its the sort of thing you have had much contact with. These films are demeaning because of the way they trivialize sexuality, both homo and hetero, and because the producers have no interest in portraying real people or real situations. (Consider the way the female body has changed in film,starting with porn and now inundating all media: plastic bodies in almost comical proportions).

Lesbian films that are made by women are a whole different animal. They are sensuous and believable, usually involve a love story with a plot,and treat the characters with respect. I'm not saying there isnt any such thing as junky porno pictures made by twisted dykes, but by and large they are a small minority.

Lets see now, shall I offer my list of good films in this category? :)

Causing trouble again,

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Earthmamma and Sheepish

I didn't reply to Jim's question till I had a chance to talk to him privately.

I'll have to stick up for Jim a little,after talking to him.Apparently he had read some material from a radical feminist claiming all heterosexual acts are rape against women.Well,sorry,but I BEG to differ! I think I know a little abt. rape,especially after working in a rape crises center.My husband does not in any way rape me. So, what Jim had read was pretty out there.

And,I never had my feminist friends or my feminist gay friends say anything abt one being porno and the other not.Actually, most I knew objected to porn,period.All porn,as demeaning.

It sure is alot easier for someone to write something than is it to say it to another human being,as we have certainly found out recently on CS.Personally,IMHO,either both is porn or neither is,tasteful or disgusting.And both is a matter of choice among adults.No matter how obnoxious or demeaming or disgusting either side feels abt. the other's material of choice,it still is abt.choice among adults.

I rather feel like the devil's advocate here.I don't really like that material I find disturbing exists, but that's my position. Unequal balance of power,yes,but that's life.Someone is always on top,no pun intended. Work on changing that balance(and women have made much progress in that area)

I love thread drift. Ain't it grand?

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

I wasn't on the offensive. Just making a couple of statements. I personally just ignore porn because it's another unfortunate commercial entity. The porn movies that I have seen (which I could count on one hand) have been idiotic and not particularly titilating. (Nor to Mr. S, either.) But I don't know much about it.

I just wanted to comment on equality in sexuality. If everybody feels safe in expressing/receiving, then everyone can relax and have a good time. If someone is anxious, or too aggressive, then perhaps not (for healthy people.)

Humans have this great gift of sexuality, but then like most human gifts, it can get all messed up.

Sounds like we need to move back on topic or start a new thread?

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

p.s. As a feminist, I find that idea of all heterosexual acts are rape (or however it was phrased) pretty much out there. I disagree. So does Mr. S., who also considers himself a feminist. But whatever. Freedom of speech.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

Yikes! I hope I didn't open a can of worms by responding to sharon's question with my question.

I guess my take on the situation is that its NOT demeaning to the women (or men) in porn films/pictures as long as they are freely consenting to the behavior. That's my libertarian beliefs coming through: I think that consenting adults should be free to do as they please as long as what they are doing doesn't interfere with others.

Earthmama: I was NOT making an assumption. And I did qualify my statement by saying *some* feminists - I was not implying any majority had this attitude. Andrea Dworkin was the feminist I had in mind when I posted my question. She is the person who has stated that hetero porn is demeaning to women and that sex between heteros is rape against the woman. There were other feminists that agreed with her but their names escape me now - it's been several years since I've heard of anything from Dworkin or her associates. And I can't give you any specifics on where I read this stuff - like I said it's been several years since first read this stuff. And I certainly don't remember reading anything by her stating that lesbian porn was just as exploitive/demeaning. If she has done so then I would happily retract my statement.

But personally - from what I remember reading from her - I think she (Dworkin) was dropped on her head several times as a child...

And regarding the statement that most of the porn out there is poor quality - I agree with you. But our opinions are just that: opinions, and thus highly subjective. My question to your statement that porn "usually contains a ludicrous lesbian scene or two which bears no resemblance to reality" is: so what? There are PLENTY of movies out there that have ludicrous scenes or bear no resemblance to reality. They're fantasy. And that is what's being sold here. I should know - some of the "fetish" movies I helped create were *bizarre*... but again, that's my personal opinion. As far as I knew, no one was coerced into participating in those films so it was pretty much all right with me.

The one other thing I'd like to add is that porn may have been a commercial entity in the beginning but the Internet has now made it easy for ANYONE to create and post pictures/videos of themselves. I read recently in U.S. News or Time Magazine that amateur-made porn is the most viewed and most purchased porn in the country now. Does the fact that this porn is being created and distributed more and more by amateur couples instead of commercial entities make it more or less offensive/exploitive/demeaning?

Ahh, I don't think I'm doing a very good job of articulating my thoughts on this matter. I think it's because I'm half thinking about what I want to respond to in my post to Diane on Buddhism which is FAR more interesting than discussing porn, IMO. So, I think I'll stop writing now and see what any of you have to add (if anything) to this thread.

BTW, thanks sharon, for helping to clarify my position on this.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001