As much as I hate to say this....our dog that we got with the assistance of very fine people on this forum..is dead from apparent poisoning. There is a family out here that is very much against keeping dogs in pens. They get dogs from other people and release them out here, don't feed them or anything. They had griped at us about Buffy in her huge, huge pen, but we didn't think they would go this far. Of course we can't prosecute them, because we can only speculate that she did it. It could have been the owners of the dog that killed the goats...Our goats are safe, no worries there. There are enough goats lovers out here to put the fear of goat death in everyone. We have had no more trouble with dogs..other then the death of our wonderful Buffy... I will extend the hot wire to a fence around the fence, giving more protection for the animals and keeping people off our land. I know the person that I suspect the most was horrified that I was planning on putting hot wire around the entire 5 acres..she was rather upset by it. I told her I had a right to protect my land and animals. This was only a week ago. I am so sorry and hope that no one is angry at me for this. You all were so wonderful to help out!!! We built a new barn and fenced in a new area for the new goats with the help of this forum. I have it set up so that my nice neighbors can help keep an eye on the goats, as we help keep on eye on their horses. I will just have to go ahead and hot wire the whole 5 acres I guess. We moved to the country to get away from people like this...*heavy sigh* again, I am sorry, but felt I should say something.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001

Answers

Oh Cindy, I'm so sorry. I don't know what to say. Maybe it's time to move to a new area, I know not all places are like that, our place up here is safe, and we don't have to worry about any mean neighbors. I can't imagine living every day with worry like that. I keep my dogs in their kennels when we are gone for their own safty, I wouldn't even think of leaving them "loose". I just can't understand the thinking of some people, turn dogs loose to starve and fend for themselves?? How kind is that? Again, I'm so sorry this happened, it must be very hard on the kids. Think about moving for your own peace of mind. We're thinking of you all.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), May 14, 2001.

Cindy, you said "apparent poisoning". I know you have a good head of steam up over the neighbor, but slow down and try to catch your breath. Unless you have an autopsy done, there is no way to prove poisoning. When I was a vet tech, we had several people say their dogs had been poisoned. In all but one case, the real cause of death was gastric torsion. That's when the stomach contorts and twists, causing a painful death. The symptoms can be similar, head thrown back, foaming at the mouth, excessive bloating. It usually follows a big meal, tanking up on water and then playing too much. Kind of like the old thing about not eating and going swimming. I know you are heartbroken and want to blame someone, but it may just be really bad luck and circumstances. As for having folks criticize everything you do, if you don't tell them about it, they can't criticize. I put up electric fencing (on the inside of the stock fence) and no one has said a word. If I had told everyone, you can bet they all would have squalled about it. I had a police officer tell me a hard truth about some antisocial types of folks. They move TO to country because they can't get along with their neighbors in town. You are unlucky enough to have moved in close to some of them. Good luck with the situation, and I'm sorry for your loss.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), May 14, 2001.

I feel it is poison because other neighbors have had this person threaten to poison any dog they saw in a pen. They are planning to move, so I will not give up here, I will keep putting up my fences and hope they move soon. None of the other people around here like this particular person, so they can't be happy around here...There are times I want to throw my hands in the air and give up having any animals, but we have to have the goats because of cow milk allergies. My little doe that was in the house has been outside in the front pen and has not been bothered at all. We have not had dog problems since the disappearance of the dog that killed my goats, so that has been a relief. I had not finished the hot wiring around the fence that the puppy was in, that was my fault. I didn't plan on the goats going in there right away, so I put off doing that. :-( Maybe I should not have said anything...I just feel like family here. I know it wasn't over eating since she wasn't swollen. She just looked depressed, then foam came out of her mouth and she died.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001.

If ever I wished to retract a post..it would be this one, we will get another guardian dog and it will be in a hot wire fence like the goats...but it will be a puppy like Buffy was. It won't take but a couple days to run that wire...so that will be done. The fence posts are already in place. Gotta go run wire, everyone have a great day.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001.

I've had several pups die while having these symptoms.It turned out to be one of the strains of parvo. I now vaccinate every 2 weeks from the age of 1 month to 4 months and have had much better luck.

-- Don (hihilldon@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001.

Oh my!! We took her to the vet on Friday..he thought it might be parvo, but she didn't have a fever. We then speculated about her eating the lizard..but she didn't seem sick enough. We talked about eating a snake or something, but he said she just wasn't sick enough. He sent her home and told me how much she should have in the way of fluids etc..sent some medicine to help if she started throwing up. (she was just depressed acting is why I took her in to begin with). He didn't think she would die either. Anyway...she was drinking alot Friday night, then wanted to follow me all over the house Saturday morning...I didn't let her since she was still not herself..then I went in a little bit later to check her. (I had her in my bathroom). She was laying on the floor with foam coming out of her mouth. She looked up at me with her big puppy eyes, then died. Does parvo do this? As far as we understood, she had been vaccinated..and I had taken her in to get vaccinated, but the vet had an emergency, and Buffy died before we got her in again. She was 13 weeks old. The vet speculated that she had been poisoned too. I am not familiar enough with parvo to know really what it does. I thought they ran a high fever etc..she never had a fever. I think I would rather she died of parvo then have been poisoned. Thanks for the info, any more on this subject would be greatly appreciated. We have been interviewing a few people that have great pyrenees pups for sale...those are hard to find around here..but in the paper today there were a bunch. I don't want to put the puppy in danger..so am hesitant..does parvo stay in the air? I heard it was an airborne disease. so many questions...sorry..

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001.

From what I've learned about it is that it is a virus that stays in the ground. Sorry to say, but once you have it you have from then on. From now on just vaccinate like I said in the earlier post as well as every six months to a year from then on and most will survive. I have one old dog that is 13 and I haven't even vaccinated him in many years but he is fine. You can buy the vaccine at drug stores around here or order itthrough any mail order hunting dog supply company. Just learn to give the shot yourself and it will only cost about 5 dollars each time. When I give the shot at 1 month of age I try to give only about a half dose. Good luck and I hope this helps. By the way, every pup or young dog that I've lost died exactly like you said yours did.

-- Don (hihilldon@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001.

I am so sorry about your pups. :-( This one time was so sad..but to go through it over and over. :-( I will surely watch out for that one. I am not a stranger to giving animals shots, so giving the shots won't be a problem. I can do that. I can get shot supplies at a store in the next town over. I need to know the name, because they aren't very helpful with that..but they will let you buy the stuff you need. Thank you so much for the info everyone!! I am off to do some homework on Parvo. I grew up thinking it was something that happened to kennel owners who didn't keep the kennel clean, that is was caused by dirty runs. But that is not the case here. Again, thanks so much!!

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 14, 2001.

Parvo is generally accompanied by vomiting and bloody diarrhea, then anorexia. If your DVM suspected it, then I am certain he/she would have done a simple fecal test. I just lost a 3 month old rescue puppy to a corona type virus, even with a full series of vaccinations and a week of intensive care. He was bottle raised so the lack of colostrum may have contributed, all of my bitch raised pups are doing well. At that age there are also many congenital problems to consider, like a liver shunt. Were there any seizures? Vomiting? Only necropsy would give you any idea.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), May 14, 2001.

No siezures, nothing like that. It happened so fast. She just looked depressed, sad like, had her tail down. Saturday morning, she had her tail back up and looked better, only to die a couple hours later, so weird. I have grown up with dachsunds and poodles and seen them die suddenly of heart attack. This was an anatolian/pyrenees mix, a big dog. We have found some pyrenees pups for sale that we are going to look at later this week. I will take all precautions against parvo and neighbors, just in case. I plan to follow the parvo vaccine plan and keep them inside until they are old enough to be safer. IF I get them...they may be all sold by the time I have time to run up there to see them. I read that chlorine diluted, will help kill the parvo germs, but if that is what happened..it could be any dog around...so I don't want to let any pup out in the yard any time soon, just in case. I talked to the vet about maybe an autopsy, but as much as I would like to know exactly what happened...we felt our money would be better invested in more fencing.

Thanks again for all the support and suggestions. I am not near as upset as I was before, still sad for my puppy,yes..but at least the postings here are giving me more ideas then I was being offered here at home. I am learning more then what I knew before at any rate. :-) I just love this place!

Cindy

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 15, 2001.

I agree with Diane, Parvo is a slower, hard to miss sickness. Dogs don't just get Parvo and die the next day. Also you have another dog there too. Parvo stays in the soil 7 years. The vacinations will prevent the dog from getting Parvo. I vaciniate pups with 7 or 8way puppy shots at 8, 11 and 14 wks. 3 shots 3 weeks apart. It protects the dog from Parvo. When a person picks up a pup, they must start the shots right away, the mothers milk protects for 10 days away from the mom. The vets do shots at 6 wks, I do them at 8 wks if the pup is still here. The shots I can buy say not under 9wks. If you give a puppy shot while the pup is still nursing, the mothers milk could void out the shot, that is why we do 3 shots instead of 2.

My adult dogs get a booster shot(7 or 8way same shot) and rabies shot once a year. The vet would have known if it was Parvo. I don't think he would send you home if the dog had any chance of having Parvo, it is a very nasty thing. Parvo can be spread by one person touching a dog with it, and then touching another.

Do you have any Elephant Ears plants? Those will poison a dog if they eat the bulbs. I wouldn't rule out the neighbors just yet.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), May 15, 2001.

One more thing about parvo: the smell of it is something you'll never forget. Part of what the disease does is kill the lining of the digestive tract, so when the dog poops, he's pooping waste, blood, and dead intestinal tissue. The smell is like nothing else you've ever known. Did Buffy have that symptom? I don't know if corona (which I understand to be a milder parvo-like bug) has that same odor.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), May 15, 2001.

OK parvo will stay in the ground for a very long time , you can carry it on your shoes .If you must go look at new pups take a pair of old shoes clean with clorax{full strength} and put them on in the car.Leave other ones home .As a breeder I would not want you at my place with puppies .

Moms protective antibiodys stay with the pup for up to 20 weeks .Shots are given usually at 8,12, and 16 weeks .If pup still has moms antibodies the shots dont work .A new study out of Tuffs {I believe}showed some pups with moms antibodies at 18 weeks , so i alwats do an extra shot a 20 weeks.

If suspected parvo I would do shots every 3 weeks for 21 weeks.Ask your vet .everything possible should be cleaned with clorax or a vet approved cleaner .Including outdoor areas .Wash all linen in hot soapy water .Good luck .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), May 15, 2001.

There was no gross smell in the stool, just normal dog smell. I didn't see any blood anywhere. Just foamy puke. We don't have elephant ears here and the area that she was in is free of bulbs as far as we know. Just grass and weeds, lizards etc.. I kept her in my bathroom so I don't think I could miss the blood..I did disinfect my shoes with Scrubbing bubbles. I didn't know what she had and sure didn't want to be tracking any germs through the house. We have had the other dog for almost a year and have not had her get sick. OH, she didn't have diarhea either, just loose stools.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 15, 2001.

OH, and as to getting another puppy...I am not sure I am ready right now to get one anyway. I am really tossing that idea back and forth.I want to have one ready to protect any future goats I get , but I don't want to endanger it in any way...I don't mind keeping it in the house for awhile, that doesn't bother me..back and forth, back and forth...

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 15, 2001.

Cindy, My heart goes out to you; I am so sorry for your troubles. We got two free 5 month-old Great Pyr/Akbash (similar to Anatolian Shep) pups a couple of weeks ago (from the breeder, who has 200+ goats). They are brother and sister, and we want to just keep the male. I think it'll be easier for us to train one single pup to bond with the goats. Anyway, we live in Northeast TX, about 60 miles south of the OK border. If you could come this far, we'd be delighted to give the female pup to you. I have a picture of her; I'll email it to you if you'd like. Just let me know!

Elizabeth

-- Elizabeth in e tx (kimprice@peoplescom.net), May 15, 2001.

Very sorry you lost the puppy.It sure doesn't take long to get attached to them.One note of caution here that has nothing to do with disease.When you get the next puppy raise it with the goats.We put our puppies in a small pen in the corner of the goat barn and let them out while we are tending the goats.If you raise it in the house and make it a pet it will bond to you and the children and be useless as a guardian.Let it bond to the goats instead.Good luck with the next one.

-- JT (gone2seed@hotmail.com), May 23, 2001.

Thank you for the tip. We put Buffy in her own pen, then moved her in with our goat twice a day. She needed very close supervision as she bit hard enough to draw blood everytime she was with her. So, we would put her on a leash and let her near Cinderella (baby doe), but if she bit, then we would pull her back. The two loved each other, but the little doe was a bit afraid of Buffy. I think it would have worked out though, given time.

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), May 24, 2001.