I had a brother-in-law who went to a Fundamentalist KJV-only Independant Baptist church.

One time he asked someone 'Do you know where you are going when you die.?' He was trying to evangelize, but the other person took it as a threat on their life.

Something I've noticed in the Bible is that there is very little talk about the state of the dead. Paul says that he is willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

But the hope we read about int he Bible repeatedly is not the hope of heaven when you die. Rather, it is the hope of thre resurrection. I taught on hope last night, and in doing my research, I found repeated references to the hope of the resurrection. There is also mention of the hope of Christ's Second Coming, a very closely related event.

Paul preached that God would judge man by Jesus Christ on a certain day. In 'pop theology' there is this idea that you are judged immediately after death, but in the Bible, we see the judgement after the resurrection.

I've heard preachers talk about walking on streets of gold when they die. But streets of gold are mentioned after the resurrection in Revelation. Also, John went to see the city after the angel said he would show him the bride of Christ. The city descended as a bride prepared for her husband. Isn't it likely that the meaning here is that the city is actually the church? It does have the names of the apostles on parts of it, after all? Couldn't the streets of gold in the vision be composed of some of the gates? Maybe there will be a more literal manifestation of this in the future as well. I don't know.

I wonder how many popular Christian concepts about going to go to heaven at death are right up there with bad pop theology about angels. Some think angels are dead people.

Any comments?

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2001

Answers

Michael....

I think you way too simplified what Mark said.

Mark never suggested that we are not "with God." He simply said wherever the dead are now....is not their final place of abode. That place will not be available until "the new heavens and new earth" are created.

To suggest that "Hades"....divided into both "Tartarus" (the place of the wicked dead) and "Paradise" (the place of the righteous dead)....smacks of "purgatory"....is not only a "straw man"....but a clear denial of Scriptural teaching on the subject. These places do exist....and while we do not understand the complete nature of each....we simply do not have the right to deny that they do exist....as biblical writers indicated that they do exist.

I think while Mark's descriptive language may have been lacking....I think his basic premise is sound.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Sorry Mark if I misrepresented your views.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Scott.....

Question.....where in I Peter 3....do you get ANY....indication that 1) Christ preached in Hades....2) That these He preached to were righteous??

Your exegesis of that passage is completely out of context.

Allow me to quote from Bruce Oberst in his commentary on 1 Peter in the Bible Study Textbook series by College Press (which by the way....is also the interpretaton of Glen Bourne):

"The preaching that Christ is spoken of as doing here, He had to do outside the realm or sphere of His corpoeral body. This preaching was done by Christ in His spirit before His incarnation--but (as we will see in vs. 20) it was done through Noah. It was done to the antediluvians. (As he indicates in 1:11....the Spirit of Christ spoke through the prophets.) These spirits were not in prison when Noah preached to them, but when Peter was penning these words. The Syriac version has "sheol" instead of "prison." (Note Scott.....these spirits are those who rejected the preaching of Noah, i.e., they were disobedient....and now....they are held in prison until the resurrection and the judgment.)

Oberst continues...."How do we know when the preaching was done to these spirits? Verse 20 tells us plainly. It is the only place in the passage where the Apostle refers to the time element. It was done while the ark was under construction. How does this whole verse relate to the context? In the patience and forebearance of Christ and also of His mouthpiece, Noah, during this previous age of great sinfulness, we are encouraged to be patient in our attempt to do good to others though we also are offended, persecuted, and abused."

Keep in mind, Scott...the theme of I Peter is consolation to Christians undergoing the persecution of Nero.

Now again Scott....please give some indication that would show that.....1) That Christ preached in Hades; and 2) (and this is the most important one).....that these He preached to....were righteous....for the text indicates otherwise.

It appears to me on the surface.....your exegesis is more guided by "The Apostles Creed" rather than Scripture.

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

One other thing Scott.....please quote (cut and paste) where Mark said that "heaven will remain the same."

I've heard Mark say everything.....but that.

Thanks again!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

The Bible DOES NOT say..."Blessed are the poor"....it says..."Blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT."

The Bible does not say..."Money is evil"....it says...."The LOVE of money is the root of all evil."

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Scott.....

Where is the "jump in logic" of Mr. Oberst's commentary??

Rather....I see him sticking to what the text ACTUALLY says. The text says....this preaching took place....while the ark was being prepared. It is very clear.

So where is the jump in logic??

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Scott.....

Two more questions....

1) Do I understand you to say that the purpose of Jesus preaching in Hades was to say...."See....I told you so!!"???

2) Since when is it a leap (in light of sound hermenutical principles) to interpret a passage consistent with the author's overal purpose for writing the letter, which in turn makes it extremely reasonable to tie all verses in a particular book together??

I agree with Michael here in that I think too much has been made of the Ephesians 4 passage.....especially when that obscure verse is used to force an interpretation on a passage (i.e., 1 Peter 3)....when the passage gives clear reference to what it is talking about.

I'm probably being a little "nit-picky" here....but I'm challenging us all to stick with what the text "actually says."

BTW....just as a side note....it appears to me in the Ephesians 4 passage that Paul is rambling a little....because for the life of me I have not been able to determine how it fits into the immediate context....unity in the body of Christ.....and the overal theme of the book....unity between Jews and Gentiles in Ephesus.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

John....

I have no problem with anything you wrote....EXCEPT....that the 1 Peter 3 passages gives absolutely NO evidence of that.

That's all I'm pounding here...."Where the Sriptures speak...etc."

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Link, you sound like you'd be right at home in some of the bible studies we've been having! I too, have looked and looked and been unable to find anything that supports the popular opinion that we go to heaven when we die. There is the verse,"In my Father's house are many mansions", this is about as close as it gets to saying where we'll go, and even then the Savior was speaking to the disciples, not necessarily to us. It does seem as though we have some kind of pleasant reward waiting for us however, so I guess we'll find out when we get there.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2001

The passage about many mansions says, that if Jesus goes, He will also return and receive us unto Himself. Many people overlook that. Jesus is going to come back and receive us to go to the mansions, so this supports the resurrection as well.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2001

Paul wrote, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2001

John,

What version of the Bible are you quoting the above text from?

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2001

2 Corinthians 5:8

"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." New International Version (NIV)

"we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." New American Standard Bible (NASB)

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." King James Version (KJV)

"We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." Revised Standard Version (RSV)

"we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord." Darby Translation

"we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord." Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord." Douay-Rheims Bible

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2001

I mentioned the 'absent from the body' verse in the initial message. Someone might also make a case from the rich man and Lazarus (still no mention of heaven but it mentions Abraham's bosom and Gehenna.)

Still, the Bible says little about the state of the dead. And the Bible talks a lot about the hope of the resurrection. There is no mention of meetin saint Peter at the gate at death, and we know that there is judgement of the just and the unjust waiting for us at the end, after the resurrection. Has anyone ever heard teaching on walking on streets of gold when you die in the RM?

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2001

John,

I too looked in all the versions I have at home. However, I still couldn't find your quote. Yours says:

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Is there a version that reads with the "is"? That's all I wanted to know. I've never read it that way before.

Link,

Yours is a very thought provoking question.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

c,

I belive the "absent form the body, present in the Lord" quote comes from 2 Corinthians 5:6 & 8. Though often used as words of comfort to the bereaved, the context of that passage is really speaking of a different matter......more in the lines of giving up worldly attitudes and actions in favor of God's ways (realizing that you gain much more than you "lose" in such an exchange).

Link,

I think every Denomination & Church Group speaks of "Pearly Gates", "Streets of Gold", etc. It's just a series of mis- & half- quotes handed down for a long time. They are words of comfort that most who seek Him are comfortable with.

Now, here's my take on the original question (even though I probably shouldn't worry about it, since Connie says I'm going straight to HEll anyway!!!!!) :

Peter says that in the "day of the Lord" (His second Coming) that all of the elements of the heavens and earth will be burned up with intense heat (2 Peter 3:7-11). John's vision in Revelation speaks of seeing a new heaven and a new earth coming down for the first had passed away (Rev 21:1-2). With this in mind, we can only accept that what we all consider Heaven and Hell (our final destinies) do not yet exist as everything has not been destroyed.

So where are the dead right now?

2 passages come to mind to answer that (as best as we finite beings can understand). First is Jesus' comments to the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:42-43). Next is Jesus account of Lazarus & the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). In this case, both Lazarus and the rich man die and are caught up in some sort of "nether region". The righteous Lazarus seen in "Abraham's Bosom" and the unrighteous rich man tormented in Hades or Gehenna.

The Greek concept of Hades (a holding area of the dead) may be the most accurate. Apparently at death, we are taken to some sort of "holding tank" until the End of Days is completed & Christ returns. And in this "tank" there is an uncrossable barrier between the good and the evil - saved and unsaved. The saved are comforted in the Lord in "Abaham's Bosom", "Paradise", or whatever type of name you care to give it. And the Unsaved experience torment and heat/flame of some sort on their side. Notice that the rich man can see Lazarus in comfort...adding to his own agony, yet no mention is made of Lazarus seeing the rich man. Maybe that highlights why Rev.21:4 says that there will be no crying, pain, or mourning in the new Heaven.

And in the "Holding Area", I think that it is only our souls that are there - no bodies yet. I say that because 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 says that at Christ's return, the DEAD in Christ shall rise first, and then the living will be lifted to meet them in the air - so I figure the new, improved, imperishible bodies will be distributed at that time.

Now, this is just a "feeling" of which I have with no real Scriptural support,....I think those living at Christ's return will experience death, before being raised in the air. It will be brief and probably simultaneous with being lifted, so as to be practically unnoticeable - at least not painful. I say this because since All Elements will be destroyed (including all physical bodies) and since we will be getting a new incorruptable body anyway- somewhere along the way, the current body is gonna have to die.

I hope this has thouroughly confused everyone ..... :~)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Sorry to disagree Mark, but I reject this teaching on several grounds. One is that it smells vaguely reminiscent of a re-hashed version of Purgatory. Secondly, lets consider something logically for a moment shall we? When our spirit is separated from our physical body, who is to say that we are bound any more by the time-space- continuum? I do not see any reason to conclude that we would be. And if we are not, discussion that includes language such as "holding area" or "waiting place" does not make one bit of sense. It is a sad antropomorphic attempt to understand a process we don't know much about.

Over and over the writers of the NT and OT had the idea that once they died they would be with God. We take the parabolic story of Lazarus and the rich man and attempt to use it as a proof-text for a non-represented theological viewpoint in Scripture. The purpose of that story is about how our earthly behavior impacts our eternal location. It is NOT intended to prove that we have a "holding tank" that we go to after we die.

I think the simple truth of Scripture is this concerning what happens to us when we die: the redeemed are with God in heaven and the wicked are sent to Hell.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Mike,

True, most all of this is conjecture, that's the whole point of discussing it.

But PROVE to me that Heaven & Hell exists right now. Show me in Scripture that it is already created. Especially in light of what Peter wrote. If it existed now - it would be wiped out in the upcoming burning of elements.

It would not be consistant with God's character to create Heaven and then rebuild it again. God does such things of magnitude one time and one time only. (Even when He had to replace the tablets of the Ten Commandments, He made Moses do the writing).

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

And by the way - Pergatory is by no means what I was referring to.

They is no such place that you can "buy your way" out of. It sure wasn't an option for the Rich Man.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Michael,

Do you have any scriptural evidence for this idea that, at death, the righteous go to heaven. I can't think of any evidence for it all in the Bible aside from the verse about being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Even when Jesus said that he would go to prepare a place for you, to His disciples, He said that He would come again and receive them unto Himself that where he is, they may be also.

Notice that the reason He would come again is that they could be with Him. It doesn't say that they would go to this place at death in the passage.

Can you present a case from the scriptures for the disembodied spirits going to heaven?

Mark,

Aside from one verse that doesn't fit the paradigm in Revelation, 'souls' seems to refer to the breath, or life in the body, or the 'life force' rather than some disembodied entity. One retired Greek professor suggested that verse that didnt' fit the paradigm, which mentioned souls under the altar refered to bodies.

SDA's believe in soul sleep. I saw a conversation on the 'net once where an SDA interpreted that verse to say 'I say unto you this day, you shall be with me in paradise.' My memory is fuzzy on this one, but years later, ir ecall a conversation in which a non-SDA said taht there is something to the Greek which indicates that the 'this day' goes with the 'I say unto you.' I don't know about that.

Michael, The purpose of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a mroal lesson, but all scripture is profitable for doctrine. God also knew this story would be recorded in scripture for all time. Shouldn't we take this passage into account when considering the state of the dead?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

No misrepresentation there Danny,

I kept things simple in order to answer a simple question.

And by the way, Mike, what I posted (accept for the last little bit about dying before rising in the air) is almost a verbatem quote spoken this past Sunday in church by Professor Glen Bourne.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Just a few thoughts on the Greek concerning Luke 16. When the beggar Lazarus died, Jesus says he "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom" (vs. 22). Now Mark takes the position that the expression "Abraham's bosom" describes this holding tank where OT saints and NT believers alike went while awaiting heaven. But I believe both Abraham and Lazarus were in the presence of God. (By the way, this account unequivocally rules out soul-sleep and purgatory).

The expression "Abraham's bosom" is very interesting. There is a parallel expression in John 13. This is the part of the apostle John's description of that final Passover celebration in the Upper Room. He writes, "Now the was leaning on JESUS' BOSOM one of his disciples..." (emphasis mine). This disciple (who was John himself) was in a position so that his head was near his chest. They positioned themselves that way so that they could converse while they had a free hand.

So when Jesus says Lazarus was carried to "Abraham's bosom" he indicates that the former beggar was reclining at a banquet table in a celebration of joy, next to Abraham, the father of the faithful. In other words, Lazarus was in the position of a guest of honor. And you know from the context that the Pharisees would have been quite dismayed at Jesus' positioning Lazarus in such a place of prominence after being such a lowly person in life.

Now, there is no reason to conclude that this story is revealing some intermediate state. I think it reveals heaven. Scripture never reveals a special compartment...Greek thought does (as Mark already espoused).

Mark also mentioned the use of the word "Paradise" by Christ on the cross. This is the same word Paul uses to describe being caught up into the 3rd heaven (the place where God dwells) in 2 Cor. 12:4. Paradise is a synonym for heaven, not for some imaginary holding tank.

Mark said as well that we can conclude that heaven is not yet created. I think the references to heaven and earth passing away in flames are indicative of the earth and the starry heavens passing away...not the heaven where God dwells. And understand when I say that I don't conclude that God is not omnipresent, he is. But I think in our own limited understanding this phrase helps.

Psalm 23 ends with that thought, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life AND I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." David, believed at life's end he would be with God forever.

In Psalm 16:10-11 the psalmist anticipates again (like David) that when he left this world he would enter the presence of God.

As mentioned earlier, 2 Cor. 5:8, "to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" (NASB)

And Phil. 1:23 is an echo of the same sentiment. I think the simple truth of Scripture is this: when the righteous die, they go to be with God in heaven.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Link...

Concerning the use of Luke 16 on this subject, I think it is fine as long as there are allowances given that we should not be dogmatic on this. For starters, there is much argument concerning whether or not Luke 16 is even a parable or not.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Link,

Belief me when I say that "Soul-sleeping" is not the process I referred to. That is a most damnable doctrine.

This idea of the soul being in Paradise (whatever) is based more on the status of the body mentioned in Thessalonians than on what is written in Revelation.

Though it is interesting to consider that Lazarus needed comforting in "Abraham's Bosom", but in the Heaven to come there will be no need....tears, pain, etc will be gone. Figure that one out?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Mark...

Lazarus didn't need comforting. As I said in my discussion on Luke 16, the picture is more accurately portrayed as a celebration where Lazarus is the "guest of honor." The problem you have is taking a modern view of the phrase "Abraham's bosom" and not considering the idiom in light of that culture in that day.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Mike,

Since Peter says ALL these things are to be destroyed......and since I know Scripture says we Will have a physical, resurrected body similar to that of Christ.....then I must assume that there is a physical plane Heaven upon which our new physical body can reside upon. (There has to be SOMEPLACE upon which to set the big table for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb). {And please don't tell me there is going to be no real "Feast".......I'm really looking forward to breaking some bread with Moses, Abraham, & my buddy Caleb!}

And if this physical plane Heaven exists now......it has to fall into the "all" category. "All" means all.....or else it means nothing.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Mark...

Just one more point, the text in Luke 16 never indicates the idea of comfort...that was inserted by you.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Wrong Michael,

I quote Luke 16:25, "But Abraham said,'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now HE IS BEING COMFORTED HERE, and you are in agony."

I ain't wrong very often - and this ain't one of those times...;~)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Mark...

In Scripture there are two words employed for heaven. Hebrew "Shamayim" and Greek "Ouranos" (where we get the name for one of our planets). These words are used variously in Scripture to refer to 3 different places:

1. Atmospheric heaven. This is the sky, or the troposphere - the region of breathable atmosphere that blankets the earth. (Gen. 7:11- 12; Psalm 147:8)

2. The planetary heaven. The 2nd heaven, where the stars, moon and planets are. (Gen. 1:14-17)

3. Heaven where God dwells. The 3rd heaven, which is the only eternal heaven. The other two heavens will pass away (2 Peter 3:10).

If you read chapter 3 of 2 Peter in full context, you will see that Peter is speaking of all that is temporal, the physical realm and all that includes. There is no indication that heaven is composed of "elements" that would be deemed matter that any modern science can know. Heaven is real and does exist and is eternal in nature.

You want to know about the physical resurrection and how that plays in and my only response is this: I have no earthly idea. I don't know. But that does not mean God is incapable of handling the problem.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Sorry, you zinged me. This does not change the impetus of my discussion on this though. Why is it that Jesus positions Lazarus next to the Father of the faithful? And how did that make his hearers (the Pharisees) feel? I am sure that they were dismayed. And it adds weight to the idea that this is not such a solemn picture as we like to paint but much more celebrative in nature.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Mike,

I can go with your last 2 paragraphs, most of this IS conjecture. I (and most Restoration Professors and authors) just tend to differ on what you consider temporal.

An honest question (as I am without my Concordances,Lexicons,etc); are all the Greek words used for "heaven" in Rev 21 and 1st Pete 3 all the same Greek word? And if so, is the usage of that word, based upon exact definitiion (physical or spititual), or upon context?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

There are actually several lessons to be learned from "Lazarus & the Rich Man". But I still have to ask myself, "do the events in this passge give any clue into the future state of the dead since it deals in that situation?"

I know Jesus never lied and that He never "made things up". Even His parables (while maybe not totally actual facts - though we can't be sure as all of human history is not recorded) were based on factual situations....trees bearing fruit, crops growing or withering, etc. With such being the case, was He just "making up" this whole story to prove a point or 2? Seems out of character to me!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

If I may weigh in here.

Whether or not Lazerus & the Rich guy was a parable or not is a meaningless discussion. If it is not, ok, it actually happened. If it is, ok, parables were stories about life's realities. So even if it was a parable, it's circumstance still remains a reality. I.e., Even if the story is not a reality, the circumstance is.

Mark, I agree with you to a point. I am convinced however, that when Jesus went to be with the Father, according to Eph 4, He took the righteous being held captive in Hades to Paradise, which is in Heaven, in the presence of God. I'm going to cheat a little and cut and paste some notes from a booklet I made many years ago.

I. At Christ’s death certain events occurred.

A. Jesus’ statement to the thief on the cross, “today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Lk. 23:43 Paradise is in Heaven (Rev. 2:7). Paul had a vision in II Cor. 12 2ff. In verse 2 he says that he was “caught up to the third heaven” (1st heaven = the atmosphere; 2nd heaven = the stars; and 3rd heaven = “Heaven.” Then in verse 4 says he was “caught up into Paradise.” Paradise is in Heaven.

B. Jesus went to the “spirits in prison” and made a proclamation. I Peter 3:19

C. "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. Mt. 13:17

The “spirits in prison” are those waiting for the salvation of Christ to come to man. When Christ died he made proclamation to those in waiting, that the salvation had finally come and took them away to heaven. Had the “spirits in prison” been those in Tartarus then (1) Christ is making a proclamation to those who have nothing to do with His salvation and (2) He lied to the thief on the cross telling him He would be in paradise when actually He was in Tartarus.

II. The location of the righteous is changed with the crucifixion of Christ.

A. Eph. 4:8-10 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

The phrase “He led captive a host of captives” means that Christ took prisoners. But the dead were already prisoners in Hades. This same phrase is found in Judges 5:12 in which Deborah and Barak were to capture the prisoners of Sisera, in other words, releasing their own people.

B. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Mt. 16:18

With salvation a reality, Hades cannot hold prisoner those who belong to Christ.

C. The righteous dead have not received their FULL reward. Mt. 25:31-34:

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 6:9-11:

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

The fullness of rewards will come to the righteous at the uniting together with new bodies (to be discussed in the class Heaven and Hell.)

III. The location of the lost remains the same awaiting judgement.

IV. Death (thanatos) and Hades shall be cast into Hell (gehenna), the lake of fire. Rev. 20:14

Interesting topic.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Yeah.....we're close Scott,

But let me try a few shots here (I gotta get ready for next week's hog hunt anyway :~).

I too believe Jesus went to the Father, no problem that. But I also think His circumstance is a little different than ours. Jesus is God (therefore a multi-dimensional being) and He can be "with God" in ways that we probably never can be - even in Heaven. Therefore that phrase cannot be empirical proof He was in Heaven.

The quote from Eph 4 does not specifically say where Jesus went. "He descended into the lower parts" could logically refer to either being buried or entering the Greek concept of the "Abode of the Dead". Neither incorrect; with the Greek thought (as usual) most applicable to the thinking of that day. "And he ascended far above all the heavens"......did he forget to "put on the brakes" or is this an exaggeration for emphasis? Oh,.......and why would He "give gifts to men" in Heaven - isn't Heaven good enough?

Now..... 2 Cor 12:2,

Exactly where in Scripture are these 3 levels of "heaven" defined as you listed them? Since Jesus ascended above the heavens in Ephesians - maybe there is a fourth level (maybe more)?

As far as Rev 2:7 goes, that's a pretty good argument for Paradise being heaven. But........I need your help here as I don't have my textbooks with me. Cannot the phrase "Paradise of God" be used in parallel to the "Garden of God" as used in Eze. 28:13 & 31:8.......possibly even the same Greek word for Paradise doing "double-duty" with Garden. If any of this is so, then Rev 2 can't be used as empirical evidence that Paradise is Heaven.

I Pete 3:19.......

I see Tartarus, Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, etc as a matter of semantics.........different names for the same place (a place other than "Final Heaven". In a sense, such people would be in prison, even though they are in a good place.............comfortable, but lacking a physical substance.........awaiting the return of Christ for up to 2000 years at this point..........basically "all dressed up with no place to go" awaiting to attend the Wedding Feast. To some, that is a type of confinement. Also notice verse 19, "made proclamation to the SPIRITS now in prison". If they were in Heaven - they would have a body, not just spirit.

Matt 13:17......

What is it that all the righteous men & prophets of the Old Testament looked forward to?.............The coming Messiah !!! Just ask Simeon and Anna from Luke 2:25-38. And I'm sure that Jesus took some time to converse with them in Paradise (not necessarily Heaven) since He had all day Saturday to "kill" before heading back to Jerusalem.

As for Matt 16:18.........death and Hades are interchangeable in the thinking of that day. Death is the enemy that men fear first of all, with the second death (damnation) being worse, but given less consideration by men unfortunately. Depending on your choice of semantics, Hades here could also be a reference to either the final or "semi-final" destination of the Damned.........Jesus' point being - Satan and his evil is powerless against the Church of Jesus Christ.

Matt 25 proves my point.........

If the dead have not received their full reward yet - then they ain't in Heaven. If I pay to get in somewhere, but then am not given what I paid for.....I want a refund. If God tells me my reward is in Heaven and I die and go straight there, only to have God say, "oops, I'm not giving you everything I promised"......I'm gonna feel ripped- off.

OK Scott, I mention all of these not to be a Jerk (afterall you already know how big of a Jerk I am....Ha). But I think that's enough to prove my point. That point being....you can't empirically prove your point and I can't empirically prove mine. Too many holes can be punched in most arguments in this matter. We have too many mysteries and only a few clues to go on.

But Buddy, I really need your honest opinion on something...........

Am I going to HELL like Connie says? I'm getting my Will together and I need to know if I should stipulate burying me in a Nomex (fire- proof) suit or in my hunting Camos!...........Ha!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I would say that too much is being attributed to the Eph 4 passage and the 1 Pet reference. The "descending" and the "preaching to the spirits in prison" is held in great mystery by many but I would accept what John R.W. Stott would have to say on the subject. That those references were mere rhetorical eloquences for alluding to the incarnation of Jesus. It makes the most sense to me.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Wiz,

First, in quick response, you are under the impression that Heaven will remain the same as it is now. I do not. When Christ comes to "restore all things" (Acts 3:21) the old heavens and earth will be done away and replaced by new heaven and earth. The word for "new" is Kainos in the Gr. which means new in kind.

Second, I believe that Paradise WAS the righteous portion of Hades until Christ went to be with the Father. When He went before the Father He led the righteous that were captive in Hades to Heaven, which is where Paradise is now. Not to be insulting, but much of what you stated sounded like Connie, et al, with their arguments against baptism. Rather than looking at what the Scripture says, you're looking at what it doesn't say. At least that's how I read it.

There were other things I wanted to respond to but I will have to do it later because I forgot what they were. I'm told that memory is the second thing to go. I forgot what the first was.

As far as the Hell stuff, I don't know what's being said about whom (I only read the threads that grab my interest concerning Bible topics) but I certainly consider you my brother in the faith. And a strong one at that.

And Michael, Star Trek Rules!!!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

OH Yeah!

Remind to say something toward giving gifts to men. No time right now but it's an important subject.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Danny,

You posted as I was leaving. Will get back to you. Good questions and I'll do my best to answer. Good to hear from you.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

I'm sorry to interject, but I don't know what SDA (mentioned by Link Hudson) means. We are having a similar discussion lately at our church and I've found a lot to think about here. Thank you.

Tess Marler

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2001

Some miscellaneous comments,

Some translators seem to think that Hebrw 'Sheol' refers to the grace. There also seems to be a view that 'Sheol' can refer to the underworld/ . I heard one explanation of Sheol that it was a place where dead souls raomed around without any memory of anything.

I think this guy was mixing what he knew of mythology and scripture, and taking into account the passages that say that the dead know nothing and that the dead praise not the Lord in Proverbs and Psalms. (SDA's who believe in soul sleep might mention this.

I don't believe in soul sleep, but I don't believe that it is necessarily a 'damnable doctrine.'

"Sheol' seems to be translated as 'Hades' in Greek. The Greek pagans (and possibly some of the Hellenized Jews) believed in an underworld afterlife where disembodied spirits could live on (though perhaps their spirits functioned as body, needing to eat and pushing stones up hills, and things like that.) The movie Gladiator had several allusions to the fields where the good souls were to frolic. Hades in Greek may refer to the grave or to this concept of heaven/hell. Hades was also the name of the god in the Greek pantheon who was in charge of the realm of the dead.

The bad part of Hades in Greek mythology was Tartarus. Tatarus- II Peter 2 uses a verb that means to refer to casting to Tartarus in regard to angels that sinned. God cast the angels that sinned into Tartarus in chains to be reserved for judgement. Some believe these angels copulated with women, producing the Nephilim. (Referred to in the book of Enoch. See also the book of Jude.)

Here's one scenario I've heard. It's definitely not airtight. This scenario says that before the crucifixion of Christ, the underworld was divided into Paradise and the place for the wicked, Gehenna. The theory goes that Christ wen down there and preached to the Spirits in prison (Danny has already offered the alternative explanation of the Spirit of Christ speaking through Noah previously.) Then, at His resurrection, some believe that Christ led these Spirits to heaven when He 'led captivity captive' (maybe that's a stretch.) Later, Christ will return, and the disembodied spirits of the righteous will be resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord together in the air as He returns to earth, then rule and reign with Christ on the earth for a thousand years. After the thousand years, the heavens and earth are destroyed 'with fervent heat' and the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven.

Revelation mentions a thousand year reign before the descending of the New Jerusalem.

What the Bible does not teach is that disembodied spirits walk on the New Jerusalem. Also, the description of this city is apocalyptic literature. Before showing John the city, the angel said he would see the bride. Then the city descended like a bride prepared for her husband. Is the city actually the bride of Christ? is the vision allegorical, rather than literal. It's strange to me that some take the 1000 years as an allegory, but interpret the city literally.

Mark,

About their being a 'physical plane' in heaven- I don't know if 'physical' is the right word. Is there any scriptural evidence for God existing in multi-dimensions or these other concepts we have? This is mostly guesswork. I heard an argument from a Christian astrophysicist that Christ's resurrected body may have been multidimensional since he could appear and disappear, or walk through walls. Does a resurrected body, like Christ's that can disappear, need a surface to stand on?

Something else to think about in regard to the idea that there are actually 'things' in heaven is Hebrews, 9 I think, where it says that the articles in the temple were an image of the things in heaven. When I first read someone suggest that there is actually an ark of the covenant in heaven, it sounded strange, but I see where they can get that from the passage. On the other hand, did Christ literally take His blood to heaven?

It seems kind of convenient (maybe even 'liberal') to dismiss comments about Jesus descending into the deep as exaggerations. But I can see why some wuld consider the grace to be 'the depths.' I didn't grow up repeating creeds, but I seem to recall the apostle's creed has something in it about Jesus going down into Hell. But wouldn't that, in Greek, have been 'Hades' which could mean either 'hell'/the underworld or 'the grave?'

The passage about Jesus ascending on high and giving gifts to men is interesting. The Psalm quoted says received gifts for men. But I've read that one rabbi in the Talmud (maybe before Christ) interpreted 'li' in Hebrew to mean 'for' instead of 'to.' So the idea would be that He received gifts FOR men. Paul interprets the passage to say that Christ gave gifts to men, so maybe this is a 'targum' style translation explaining what the passage means. From the days of Ezra on-ward, if the Hebrew scriptures were read, others would interpret the scriptures into the spoken language, at least into Aramaic if that were the language of the audience. A targum could be a loose, 'Living Bible' type translation.

I'd still like to point out that the Bible talks a lot about the hope of the resurrection and the hope of heaven. It doesn't say much about the hope of going to heaven at death. We are to look forward to the resurrection. There is also a lot in the Bible about judgment at the end. The idea of disembodied pre-resurrected spirits walking on streets of gold is not found in that passage about the New Jerusalem, either. Shouldn't we mention the resurrection and the final judgment if we witness, rather than going to heaven at death?

It is interesting that the rich are bad guys in at least a couple of Jesus' parables. The poor man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Eleazar) was punished while the poor man was comforted. Jesus parable didn't make the rich man out to be a good man who provided a lot of jobs for the local economy in this parable. There are several other 'pro-poor' scriptures. James wrote that his readers had despised the poor, but that god had chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom. He asks, do not rich men oppress you and draw you before the judgment seats. His letter contains a rebuke to rich men who had hoarded up gold, silver, and clothing for the last days, and had defrauded their laborers. Compare this to Jesus saying blessed are the poor, saying that it was easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven, and His teaching not to lay up treasures on earth, but to lay up treasures in heaven.

Btw, SDA means Seventh Day Adventist.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Link,

Danny is correct here. Money is not the problem....it's attitude. When the heart is wrong, money becomes a great temptation that is hard to resist. Jesus said that it was EXTREMELY difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom - not because of the money, but because of his Trust in that money, rather than in Christ.

I had a Sunday School teacher this past Sunday mistakenly think that the rich man in the "Lazarus" passage was sent to torment because of his wealth and his refusal to share it. That IS NOT SO! We don't know why he was sent to torment, because the Bible says absolutely nothing about "why" - just that he "was" sent there.

You have to remember context here. The Wealthy were seen as those who "had it made". Their ticket to Heaven was "punched" because of their power & money. Jesus used this account to defeat that attitude among the people. Unfortunately they didn't learn the lesson then, nor have we learned it today. It's sad to think about all the "poor" who won't enter the Kingdom because they thought that their poverty made them "unworthy" in God's sight.

And your comments about the multi-dimentional aspects of Jesus and even the dead pretty much go where I am at. We really don't know. What we do know is really very simple and very little.......Heaven Good..........HELL Bad! Everything else in that realm of thinking is mostly conjecture, based on only a few possible clues.

And yes, our focus should be on the death, burial, & resurrection of Christ.....such is fruitful. But these other questions always come up, and if nothing else, the intellectual exercise of researching the answers (or possible answers) must be profitable as long as the Bible was your textbook.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

OK,

First, Eph. 4:8 “Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." This is a quote of Ps 68:18. But it is not an exact quote. Ps 68:18 says, “You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there.” The Psalmist says that He had received gifts whereas Paul says He gave gifts. Contradiction? CG might say so, but of course it isn’t (there are no contradictions in Scripture). The difference in wording is explained by looking at it as a victorious general. When an enemy was conquered the spoils were all laid at the feet of the general. Then the general would distribute the spoils among the troops. In Ps the victory had not yet been won, but when Paul writes the victorious Jesus distributes gifts among men – of course the gifts are the leadership offices of His kingdom: Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor/Teacher.

Second, I did not mean to imply that I was quoting Mark when I stated that he thought Heaven would remain the same as it is now. I was giving what I understood him when he said, “If the dead have not received their full reward yet - then they ain't in Heaven. If I pay to get in somewhere, but then am not given what I paid for.....I want a refund. If God tells me my reward is in Heaven and I die and go straight there, only to have God say, "oops, I'm not giving you everything I promised"......I'm gonna feel ripped- off.” I’m not trying to put words in his mouth, he speaks well enough on his own (except when he tries to tell one of his jokes, don't you agree?).

I admit that there are a few assumptions that I make, at least in the stuff I posted. I view all of Hades as a “prison”. It was divided into 2 sections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous, and they could not be traversed. Before the cross the righteous could not go to Heaven (when I capitalize Heaven I am referring to the presence of God) for the actual forgiveness of sins had not taken place. So they waited until that for which they had placed their faith – Jesus.

As I understand I Peter 3, while Jesus was in the tomb He went and made proclamation to those in prison. Verse 20 makes it clear that this proclamation was made to those condemned. Jesus was not proclaiming the Gospel to give a second chance, i.e., evangelizing. He made proclamation of what they had rejected was now taking place (that last part is speculation on my part, I admit). Given that Abraham could hear the rich guy, I assume that the righteous in Hades could hear Jesus’ proclamation as well.

My overall view in a nutshell is this, while Jesus was in the tomb, He made proclamation to those in prison (Hades), rose from the dead and when He went to be with the Father, took those that were in Paradise (the righteous portion of Hades) into Heaven, leaving those in Tartarus (the unrighteous portion of Hades) where they were/are waiting judgment/sentencing. I believe Hades still exists, the unrighteous are there now, and the righteous are in Paradise which is in Heaven. When Jesus comes back to “restore all things” everything that is old (old heavens and old earth) will be destroyed and the righteous will be placed in the new heaven and earth and will be in the presence of God forever. Hades, death, and the unrighteous will be cast into the Lake of Fire, aka Hell, never to be seen or heard from again.

I admit that there are a few “jumps” in my logic, but I also think there are some in the commentary you posted. They may be reasonable jumps, but jumps nonetheless. I like to think my jumps also are reasonable. I could also put up some writings of respected Restoration scholars that would agree with my position. Like I said earlier, this is an interesting topic. Don’t be afraid of challenging me (quit cowering in the corner) – You may be surprised to learn that – sit down – I do not know everything. Close, but not everything ;o)

On an aside, Danny, you’ve made go back and look at I Peter 3 again a bit more carefully (when I posted earlier it was off the top of my head), but one thing I notice, the context is, as you say, to comfort those being persecuted. Within that context verse 18 seems to be a major point but that is all leading up to verses 21 & 22, in which he is letting them know that at their baptism (for all had been baptized to become Christians) they had salvation. Persecution could not take away their life in Christ. Baptism is more than a bath, it is where we call to God for a clear conscience (forgiveness). Not because the water itself had that power but Jesus’ resurrection most certainly did. I find it astounding that some people on this forum do their best to try and lose that which connects us to Jesus’ resurrection. Anyway, that’s another thread, and that dead horse has been pulverized already. Later.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Scott,

I need one clarification on that last post.

You said, "I believe Hades still exists, the unrighteous are there now, and the righteous are in Paradise which is in Heaven."

Is Paradise located IN Heaven or is Paradise just another name for Heaven?

I have absolutely no problem with saying that Paradise is IN Heaven, because I have no clue as to Paradise/Hades' location. I'm just not sure if I can go along with saying that the OT Paradise was eliminated and current believers go straight to the "Final Reward"....as I don't see the new heavens and new earth as being in existence yet. And it would seem unfair (even for the damned) to them to have to sit & wait in the "Drunk Tank" waiting for finality, while Christians just "whip on past" on the way to fruition.

And what's wrong with my jokes????? I make 5 year olds laugh so hard that they pee their pants.................maybe THAT's why parents don't like me.....:o)

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Mark,

I would say that the FINAL reward will not be until the "restoration of all things." Heaven, as it exists now, will be replaced. Therefore, how can it be the FINAL reward? Right now, I believe Paradise is in Heaven, but everyone there is awaiting the restoration, where they will receive their new bodies and be changed.

Danny,

The jump occurs when he tries to link 1:11 with 3:20. It may be a good jump, but it is a jump nonetheless. When I say "jump" I don't mean a contradiction. More of an assumption. I understand the reasoning behind the thinking, and it's good thinking, I just dont agree completely, although you have me thinking. The wording in 3:19 & 20 can be understood both as the way he presents it or the way I do. Verse 17 is dealing with God allowing suffering for righteousness as opposed to suffering for wrong-doing. An example of suffering for righteousness would be Jesus (verse 18). An example of those suffering for wrong-doing would be those in the time of Noah (19, 20). During the time that Jesus was suffering for righteousness, He went and made proclamation to those suffering for unrighteousness. I could be wrong but this makes more sense to me than trying to use 1:10-12 to explain. Once again let me say, the proclamation was not evangelistic. It was declaritive.

I will definitely give it further thought and study.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2001

Cool Scott,

Basically our difference is in semantics then - what is being called by what name and when. I won't be losing any sleep over this difference.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Danny;

Since apparently, according to Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus, Hades was comprised of 'Paradise' or 'Abraham's Bosom' and a place of torments, separated by a huge gulf, it is reasonable to assume that Jesus visited the cooler side of Hades, not the hotter, to proclaim to those saints who had been faithful for so long that their faith was not in vain. But I'm sure those on the other side of the gulf could see and hear the proclamation, no doubt making their torment all the more miserable.

Weighing in with my two cents worth: From passages that say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, that we are appointed a time to die and after that face judgement, and that we shall reign a thousand years (remembering that it says with God a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years, a metaphor for timelessness) ... I am inclined to believe that after one dies, one enters a state like unto our Lord's, where time as we understand it really has no meaning any more. It will be an interesting transition.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Danny

Eph 4 is leading up to verse 13, the one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. is the basis of that unity. Verses 11-12 are about the gifts God gives in the church to make that unity demonstratable in our lives, 13 and following address the goal to which God is pointing us in unity and how the things mentioned in vv. 1-12 will no longer be needed once the church walks in that unity on an experiential level.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Following these thoughts of everybody, the righteous ones, going to heaven to receive their final reward and to rule as kings and priest – as says in Revelation. Then, the existing heaven and earth, and their elements are to be “burned up”, then new ones “created” – what is the “new” earth for? And, just who/what are these going to rule over, if everybody’s in heaven?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Jscott,

Do you believe our rewards are promised for us at death? Do you have any scripture for that? What about that bit at the end of Daniel? What about those mentioned in Hebrews 11 who were to attain a 'better resurrection.' From what I see in the Bible, there are awards waiting us in the resurrection.

Mark,

If the wicked are wicked, what's wrong with keeping them in a bad storage cell?

Does anyone know if the Greek of Ephesians 4 can be interested to say that Christ led captivity itself_ captive? Death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So can captivity be held captive? Does the text demand that the 'captive ones' be held captive? It seems like I've read that nouns can function that way in Greek.

(A Greek prof. said that the verse to Timothy about the two false teachers that says let all that name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity, means let them depart from the iniquitous ones, and that it is a paraphrase from Korah's rebellion in the OT. Fits well with the passage. The NIV of the Lord's prayer says to deliver us from the evil _one. But I digress.)

Btw, I prefer the interpretation of Ephesians 4 that Paul is translating 'li' in Hebrew as 'for' instead of 'to.' That Christ received gifts 'for' men- and hence the verse is translated, or targum'ed, that Christ gave gifts to men. It's a possible take on the Hebrew of the passage, I've read, and a rabbi before Paul had interpretted 'li' that way in the passage.

One of my professors in college said that 'li' (le) can be translated many ways. he said a 'psalm of David' could be a psalm for David, or a psalm about David, for example. (I think that's 'li' or is that 'le' with the 'e' being a schwa sound. I get Herbew and Arabic mixed up sometimes. Both classes are a little fuzzy in my memory.)

And Mark,

For ourselves and our own hope as Christians, we should look forward to the resurrection of our bodies. Look up the references to the word 'hope' and see how many times it is used of our hope of the Second Coming and the resurrection of the dead. This is a repeated theme in Paul's writings and sermons, and even shows up in I John as well.

I don't see where the Bible says that we go to heaven _when we die._ It does tsay that about being absent from the body and present with the Lord. Our Father is in Heaven, and Christ is at His right hand, so people put that together and conclude that we go to heaven when we die. Death is certainly not our final state. Being dead is something temporary. Death is an enemy and will be the last enemy to be destroyed. Eventually, we will be resurrected.

The idea of some of the rich being wicked can be found in various places in the NT. Remember when job defended his righteousness he defended himself by saying he hadn't let the poor do without. He clothed the poor and fed them. I don't' remember the exact quote- but it sure sounds like Job didn't let a poor person that he had contact with go without food or clothing.

Danny,

The Lukan version says 'blessed are ye poor…' without saying 'in spirit.' Ye is italicized in the KJV, too. ('Poor' seems to refer to oppressed, or something like that, and not only poverty in some places in scripture. David said he was 'poor' at one point.)

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Our souls/spirits never die but go to be with the Lord, awaiting our new bodies.

Our old bodies die and are of no more use to us. When our souls are resurrected, they unite with our new bodies. Otherwise our souls/spirits would be floating around like wraiths.

When we are 'absent from the body; present with the Lord', does that mean our resurrected bodies? No, we don't have those until the resurrection. Since we never die, this can only mean our souls/spirits never die; but we know our bodies die.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Connie,

Where is the scripture that says the "soul" goes or returns to heaven? Or the soul and the spirit is one-in-the-same?

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Chamoisee,

About the reward, Cookies and Milk.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone mentioned the fact that after death we leave the finite world behind us? We still operate in space and time because we are living. With God a thousand years are like a day. The idea of "waiting around" for the resurrection after we die is not an issue: eternity is the absence of time. There will be no waiting. ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 02, 2001

The soul itself that is sinning will die. We all inherited and have sinned. If we just go to heaven or remain in some sort of "eternity" out of time, where is the "punishment" of Adam and Eve? Or was their command to mulitiply some sort of game by God?

The soul and the spirit are not one-in-the-same.

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2001