I would like some help with the problem of "bottle jaw" in goats. I think I have a pretty good feel for the cause, as I have read about it in the big "goat health" book. But that is written in "vet" lingo, so I would like to hear some "plain folk" lingo. In your answers, please treat me as I have never owned a goat, that way I may pick up a new clue, or helpful hint, I sure hope so! Thanks a lot,ddt

-- ddt (troubled@ftc-i.net), April 27, 2001

Answers

Response to Bottle Jaw

ddt, I don't know much about it, but if you look down at the older messages, under Goat health there are some threads on Bottle Jaw that you might find helpful.

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to Bottle Jaw

Bottle jaw is nothing more than a symptom of parasites, or liver failure. It is caused by blood loss from parasites, causing the swelling, also from liver flukes. Treatment is totally dependant upon what type of parasite is causing this, hemoncous worms? then knowing what type of wormer to use in your area. This is where fecal sampling is the most rewarding, getting to worms, before symptoms, is the ideal. The problem when animals are this severely infested, worms can become encysted, needing higher levels of drugs, used at frequent intervals. If you have been worming on your normal management program and have this type of symptom, and or diarrhea, you know that your worming program is not working. Most vets charge 10$ to run fecals, definetly cheaper than worming even a smaller herd. If your vet isn't much of a goat vet than ask him how many parts per gram of worms, and what is the worm. Lots of great sites on the internet to help with diagnosis. With at least this information we could help with what wormer to choose, especially with information about what you have been using in the past, and at what dosage and route. Worming has got to be one of the most missunderstood parts of management. Nutrition also plays a huge part in helping your goats become resistant to worms. Correct copper levels, selenium, and overall condition all are important. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.

Vicki, you just gave me a scare. My Saanen/Alpine, the one with the icky icky eye, now has the bottle jaw. The reason your post scared me is because the vet declared the eye problem a "very persistent" pink eye, and she has been on pretty high doses of antibiotic for a few weeks now(eye is still not better:( I have been treating her for worms fairly regularly, could this bottle jaw be liver damage from the antibiotics? She is a very sweet but sadly unproductive goat. Had plans to sell her cheaply before our move to some people who didn't care that she doesn't have a good bag, they raise meat goats. Now I'm wondering what the heck to do with her. They won't want her anyway if the eye doesn't clear up. If her liver is also shot, I'm supposing she would need to be put down?

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), April 28, 2001.

Hi Mary, and sorry this doe is still doing so poorly. Micoplasma or Chlamydia is a bear to clear up, and once clear can eaisly come back. Like the herpes virus it sits dormant, and any kind of stress can bring it back. Yes the overuse of some drugs can cause liver failure, and the pitting edema could either now be parasite bottle jaw or liver problems. Worms are very opportunistic, whenever an animal is ill, even from pink eye, or hormonally down from labor and delivery, they take this time to multiply rapidly in the system. Especially this time of year, winters, worms will go into arrested development in the system, you keep worming anyway, not really touching them, and having clear fecals. But once spring has come, they awaken, overnight does can carry huge worm burdens. Kids out on fresh pasture are really doing nothing more than vacuming up worm eggs. So your little doe is stressed from her eye problem, made worse because it is probably a virus, with most vets treating everything in goats as a bacteria.

With a poor udder and these continuing health problems I would cull her. I have very clear culling practices. A doe who is valuable, who either herself or her daughters makes me money, is allowed any and nearly all medical care, including my vet or a vet hospital. A doe who is older than 8 receives vet care and my care only, with a reasonable amount placed on care. A brood doe or someone elses bloodline, may receive a call to the vet and only my care. Kids who are replaceable because the semen/buck and doe are still available receive my care. Since I keep so few bucks they go into catagory one, with a special "they don't go to shows until they have been used for breeding". I would give this doe away to someone who wants to continue with her care. She obviously isn't a candidate for butcher. Though if you do choose to put her down, you could see for yourself if her liver is normal. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.

I dealt with two cases of bottle jaw last summer. It was a horrible summer!! Well here in eastern Oklahoma we worm every month and rotate pastures. Parasite Farm, I guess. Anyway, my worming program failed. The Parasites on this Ranch have built an immunity to both Ivomentic and Pacure (Safeguard) products. After finding a wormer that worked Tramisol I had to deal with these few with poor health (bottle jaw). Beings that the other sheep had no problems with worm overload I probably should have culled these two. If they have problems this year, just one there out of here. I feed very high protein during the summer when I still had pasture after I gave each a round of Penn G for 10 days, phobitics, yogurt adult iron tabs. Electrolites,it goes on... Now, I test fecal periodically, use tramisol and cydentin (a form of ivomectin but a little different), also recently tried valbazen (still a different form of ivomectin) Pipestone Vet Service in Min. has been the one helping me, the vets in my area do not know much about sheep or goats. Good Luck

-- Debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), April 28, 2001.

Monthly worming is the fastest way to resistance, and espeically worming and then switching wormers. Safeguard down in my area simply doesn't work, even at 5 times the dosage, it is a little more than not worming but not much. Ivermectin has shown real resistance west of me. Valbazen is from the same family as safeguard, panacur, synanthic it is a benzasole, though a much broader spectrum one, and on fecal works the best for us, it also has a 36 hour milk withdrawl at 8cc per 100 pounds. We haven't yet (other than on a trial) started using cydectin. We have used injectable (orally though) levamisole, and had good kill on it, we save it to use on does brought in, with this wormer you must get your dosage correct as it can cause problems if overdosed. Each area is different, but fecals don't lie, over on Nubian Talk a gal is selling fecal kits, everything you will need but the microscope. I could go find the post if anyone is interested. Not fecaling is a little akin to not trimming feet. (Since we can only see tapeworms, the only seeing of worms is in a sickness causing state.) And it is no harder to learn to do. It also can be done inside in the airconditioning! :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.

If the goat in question is a young kid, it could be milk goiter. That's especially common among dam raised kids, and it will go away by itself in time. Milk goiter is not worms, and worming won't help it. If it's an adult goat, it probably is worms.

-- Chamoisee (chamoisee@yahoo.com), April 28, 2001.

Hating to sound confused yet again, but I had read that you should alternate wormers, and not use the same one twice. Is that wrong?

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), April 28, 2001.

http://texaserc.tamu.edu/

This is a really good site for you Mary, especially being in Texas. Go to extension info, then to livestock, it looks as if you have to buy all these catalogs, but in fact if you have acrobate reader installed just click on the PDF and read them for yourself. It is recommended that we rotate only annually or if resistance is seen. You also want to always choose the oral route. Also the hemoncous catalog has a blurb on bottle jaw. These used to be handouts when you would go to a parasite clinic at A&M. Make sure and print out the fecal reading information, especially the parts per gram, so even if you don't read your own, you can have your vet know when you need to worm and when you don't, the presence of worms in the fecal does not mean you need to worm! Dr. Craig is who taught me how to fecal sample. Remember this isn't just some guess work going on, this is field tests with herds of goats and sheep. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.