I'm sitting here at work being bummed because my bosses, a husband and wife team are busy having yet another baby. I'm happy for them I guess, but not for the many non human lives that will be lost because this child lives. They give their children everything and don't seem to think about how they are turning them into consumption monsters. The baby's room just had to be gutted and redone although there was nothing wrong with it to begin with. Of couse there will be thousands of disposable diapers going to the landfill along with lord knows what else. They are huge meat eaters so there goes more rainforest so cheap beef can be raised to fuel their Mcdonalds habit. I could go on for days but I won't...All this is just too depressing to me because at 9 years old I started asking God to never ever bless me with children. I could see the overpopulation problem even at that young age. I was hoping perhaps someone would take a stab at cheering me up. Help!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Answers

Well Debra, you wised-up at an early age, maybe this baby will too. Maybe she'll grow up to be a brilliant scientist that will discover the solution to the world's energy problems. Maybe she'll grow up to be the first truly environmental US president. Or maybe she'll be a homesteader. :-) you never know....

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Hi Debra,

Philosphically, I pretty much am in agreement with you. But I must say (and this isn't particularly cheerful, sorry) that after spending the last week in the med/surg area of the hospital with my mom, new life actually sounds pretty positive right now. That's just a micro- selfish view, though...(I hope Mom gets to come home in the next day or so...it's depressing *there.*)

I guess good news is that teen pregnancies are down in the U.S. (can't cite the reference but I remember reading it somewhere.) I don't have kids, and my brother only has one...maybe between the two of us, we can "donate" our deficit of three....

better?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Sherri, that's an awful lot of maybes but thanks that helps a little. I neglected to mention that I'll be a part time caregiver to this child. I've already got the other kids saying they are never having kids when they grow up. I only hope some of them actually remember. I should also mention that these folks have been friends of mine for 20 years and they know better because I've made absolutely sure they know better.

Hey Kirk, where are you when I need you?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

I'm sorry, Debra, I have nothing to say to make you feel better. I don't have kids, but might have done so if things had been different when I was young and newly married. I only wised up as I got older.

IF it makes you feel at all better, you are doing what YOU can do, not having any of your own and attempting to educate the friends' children. Your attempts with the parents may have failed, but at least you tried! Try not to dwell on it.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Ah, that's a tough one, debra.

I wish I could say something to make you feel better but I don't know what it would be.

Unfortunately, those of us choosing not to have children are self- selecting ourselves out of the gene pool. Thus ensuring that those who believe in big families will pass on their genes and cultural beliefs (memes) for large families.

It's damn depressing - mostly likely because we see the potential problem(s) but are helpless to do anything about it. :-(

Sorry to be such a wet blanket.

I hope I'm wrong and Sherri is right...

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

I didn't want any children because I thought there were already too many people on the planet, but I ended up having two boys. They are great guys and are my greatest joy. They are 21 and 24 and don't seem to be in a big hurry to go forth and multiply. I would have to go along with Sherri and hope for the best. Think how lucky these kids are to have you to influence their young lives, through you they will get a totally different perspective on what's up than they will ever get from their parents. And you will be blessed for having shared your perspective with them.

Namaste,

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

I think all any of us can do is try to set some kind of an example, to show there are other ways of life that can be fulfilling without the mindless consumption thats so rampant.

I know my own life has had an impact on several others I know, in that they too have come to learn the satisfaction of bottomfeeding (scrounging) and making something from used materials etc. Instead of bragging about how much they spent on something they boast about how little it cost them. If I have a homesteading specialty I guess that would be it. In the final analysis I think thats all we can do as individuals, demonstrate alternatives.

We have friends with kids who enjoy coming here because of all the interesting stuff going on around here. I make a point of spending a little time with the kids and answer their questions so it will be a positive experience for them. Maybe what they've seen and learned will take root. Thats probably the best you can hope for.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

What an interesting post! Couldn't touch it on CS.

My feeling, based on a scientific background, is that human population is not different to any other species. We are at the mercy of our environment to provide our needs. What is scary is that there are two pathways in the future (1) overpopulation followed by collapse and (2) steady state population in harmony with the environment. Many of you may be familiar with the book "Beyond the Limits" written by a MIT group, which modelled human population and resource use. Reading that, and realising it was inescapable was one of the reasons why I took up my best attempt at homesteading! Our present social system is based in the exponential use of energy resources (a limited resource) to maintain growth. This means that we are currently happily marching along path 1!

My emotional feeling is that children in themselves do not cause problems, parents do, as others said above. If you raise your children to be consumeristic energy guzzlers then the cycle is not broken. We have 3 children, but hope that we are raising them to respect the environment and reject consumerism. We believe that the impact on the planet of our 3 will be less than the impact of some peoples 1 child, at least in the short term. It is not easy - our kids see consumerism everywhere and are bombarded with advertising, both direct and indirect. We don't have a TV for this very reason.

Sadly, there will probably not be a political solution to the overuse of resources, since the measures needed involve long range thinking spanning decades to centuries. The most painful steps will be the first ones. The very first is acknowledgement that there is a problem. I believe most of us on BTS have got at least this far! Homesteading is the best solution I can come up with, and I only hope that, if I'm right, homesteading will still be possible when the mainstream wakes up.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

It often skips a generation. Really.Note the ones here that were influenced by grandparents. So, yes, you have some hope, being an influence. And raising someone else's kids allows one to have influence without contributing to the problem. Some of us have done that.Or just being an active aunt or uncle.I love kids,just didn't want to bring any into this world because of what I expect to happen.

And,in agreement with David,again.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

A great big THANK YOU to everyone who has responded. Seeing all your thoughts when I got to work this morning has helped more than you'll know. All of you are right all I can do on the subject of overpopulation is set an example and teach as many people as possible. I'll have to learn to be content with that. In the meantime I'll be figuring out ways to turn this new kid into a no holes barred world class environmentalist!!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Oh boy, I don't know how to approach this one. I agree and I don't agree. I don't like to see people raising their kids to be wasteful and eaten up with consumerism either. I respect your views on this. But if the enviromental people who feel this way don't have children, then how will they pass these views on to another generation x 1, 2, 3,etc., while the people who feed into the I need this or that to be happy people are multiplying. I know this doesn't help the total population problem but earth conscious people will become more and more a minority if they aren't having children. I don't claim to know the answer and hope not to be jumped on for this but I don't believe remaining childless is the only answer. I personally would be very upset if a person were influencing my children in the way you are influencing these people's children. Right or wrong it is the parent's responsibility to influence their children. I know I'm way outnumbered here, so please be nice!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Hey Denise, I agree with a lot of what you said. The thing that I would disagree on is the part about influencing someone elses children. If debra's friends don't know her well enough to know what she believes, than they should and they are very lacking in parenting skills and committment if they don't. If I didn't approve of someones root values, you can bet they would not be around my children or grandchildren. If ANY child visits my farm they hear my beliefs about consumerism, environmental issues etc. If the parents don't like it, than they sure should not bring them here. Walking gently on the earth is so much a part of who I am that I can not imagine not sharing its joys with everyone.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Diane, I would tend to agree with you that if a parent doesn't agree with a person's views that they shouldn't have their children around that person. That's the way we operate here. There are cetain things that some of my family does that I don't agree with. And I have discussions with the kids about how we agree or don't agree with what they are doing. Usually it's not a big deal. But what if someone were telling my kids it's OK to drink or it's OK to take drugs. You better believe I'd be saying something. I know it's not the same thing as influencing someone to have children or not. But I feel we are doing a responsible job and for someone to tell my children not to have children would step on my toes. It's like saying we're not doing a good job or that our decisions or lifestyle are wrong. I think it's OK for kids to see how another lives or hear their views but ultimately I want to have a handle on such things. That's all I meant! If we still disagree please know it's with repect ant that I still regard everyone here with the utmost in respect also.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Debra responds--The parents know exactly how I feel and what I believe. I have known them for 20 years. We have discussed these issues many times. They listen to me tell their kids what I think. I NEVER told the kids not to have children, I simply explained to them the reasons I don't. They are smart enough to not want the earth to get flushed down the toilet, so they listen and I hope take it to heart for the rest of their lives.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

I really don't want to beat a dead horse here, BUT! Are you saying that people who do decide to have children no matter how responsibly they are raising them are not smart enough to not want to flush the earth down the toilet? I'm not angry, I just want be clear about what you are saying. If that is what you are saying, I guess it just boils down to that I don't agree with you. And that's OK! I just hope JOJ doesn't see this, because I know he'll blast me! :) I'm just trying to interject a little humor here as I know you were looking for some understanding and not a debate. Have a great day! Really I mean that!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Denise, I don't think it has anything to do with being smart or not smart. In this case which is the only one I can address, the parents know that there are too many people. They fully agree with me, however what they "want" is more important to them than doing what they themselves consider to be a "right". You know, Denise, that just may be part of what makes this so depressing for me. Watching folks I love put aside what they think is right.

I have a friend who worked for a chemical company. He knew of many instances where the company did things that were not only illegal but just plain wrong and people died because of it. He would never go to the EPA and report these things because he didn't want to lose his $75,000 a year job. Now he has hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses from illnesses he incurred there. And he is unable to work. If he had done what he believed was right perhaps he would not be in this mess. But what can a person do, but sit back and watch?

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Denise, you can turn it the other way round too. Since environmentalists are in a minority, our kids are subjected to pressure from far more people, corporations, media, etc. to be consumeristic. I don't disagree with what you said, either - it would be much more rewarding to convert the parents, not the children. The best we can do is lead by example - something that even a lot of environmentalists are not very good at!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Wow, this is cool......our first disagreement and no one flamed...maybe we will make it here after all. Blessings to all

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Diane, I disagree, that was not a disagreement.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

David, if you disagree does that mean you and I are having a disagreement??? :>) (chuckles)

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Denise and I are not having a disagreement, we are having a discussion. She asked for clarification and I attempted to supply it. That's all. :)

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

No problem here! I think we both see the same problem. We just have differing ideas on what to do about it. And that's OK! I did ask for clarification and Debra gave it. I'm glad she doesn't feel it's an intelligence issue. If she had, I would have to accept that as her opinion! Getting upset wouldn't change anyone's views, it would only serve to cause problems. I think we're doing fine here!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

How refreshing! You aren't hiding 2x4's behind your backs are you? ;-D

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Denise: I think the operative word here is example. Haven't you, while growing up, encountered ideas that may have been foreign to the way you were brought up, yet after reflection, you adopted them as your own because they made more sense to you?

I remember as a kid seeing things I thot were cool and later adopted into my own life style. I don't see how there's any difference because Debs not suggesting she's gonna coerce or covertly "educate" the kids and she's upfront with the parents. And if not Deb, then who? when she's in a position to influence the kids?

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

John, I totally understand your point about adopting aspects of someone else's life when you are older. Yes,I can think of a few things in my own life. And there isn't any problem especially if the parents are aware of her influence. I think it's great that she cares so much about these kids and the earth. Debra could be our friend too as long as her views were out in the open (which they are). She's known them for 20 yrs. Their approach to the new baby and their life does sound very wasteful and it saddens me also that another child will be brought up with such values. But it doesn't sadden me that another life is coming into the world. That's where our views diverge. I say have a family as large as you like and educate, educate, educate. I think it's too late to reverse things anyway. When things get bad enough, I hope it will be the ones who are educated that can survive and start over. I know you might say that the world will be destroyed by then, but I believe life will find a way. It may be life different than we know it now, but that's how things work. I'll do everything I can in the meantime to be kind to and aligned with nature. I love the earth and by no means take this lightly. As far as Debra, I like her and her passion for her views and that she feels so deeply. As I said before she could be our friend. I would just explain to my kids how I believe also and then the kids will have to decide for themselves when they are older. John, since you have studied many religions and philosophies, is there a name for how I believe? Now be nice:) ! Everyone have a great day!!!

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Denise: I think I understand better now where you're coming from. I dunno if there's a name for it or not but it sounds ok to me. In a nutshell you're simply advocating the parents have the duty to raise the kids as they see fit and I'm saying unless the kids are kept in isolation they'll pick things up along the way and WILL make up their own minds eventually, whether we like it or not.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Actions speak louder than words, in my opinion. The only spiritual people that have influenced my life spoke nothing of religion. Their life was their message. It would seem to me that to influence others to be more environmentally concsious it is more effective to let our lives be our message. Not only to consume less but "be happy" with less. My partner and I have only one child between us. We have been satisfied with part time income ,by choice, for the last 20 years. We believe that less income = less consuming of 'things' = more happiness. Some people are rather unbeliving when they imagine all the things we must have to do without. I reply by mentioning the fact that I have never seen a hearse with luggage racks. Another interesting thing that we have noticed over the years is that it takes about as much time to spend money, as it does to earn it. Not to mention the tax man and then that feeling of 'oh poor me , now that I have worked so hard I guess I deserve a new toy. It's just one viscious circle. Sounds like you were exceptionally perceptive at a very young age debra. I do think that not having children is by far the greatest contribution that we can make to the planet. I sure wish the pope was listening. In the end nature will work things out, not in the fashion we mortals might choose but thats just my opinion. peace jz

-- Anonymous, April 29, 2001

jz, good thoughts. And, while the pope may not be listening, today in my little church, our sermon referenced the old PBS program: "Influenza" and how all our stuff owns us. (sorry to keep bringing up my church, I guess, but I think we do important things there.) One part of the sermon was about being lonely in a lifeboat filled with everything we "need," and for spiritual reasons (and reasons of trust) being able to jump off the "lifeboat" (and away from our *things*) in order to rescue ourselves...

Anyway, like that old teevee shampoo commercial, I'll tell two people, and you tell two people, and they'll tell two people, etc. The message will grow exponentially! Maybe instead of telling, we could be *living* the message. So Debra, and you, and the rest of you, and my little church, and all of us will carry the news! What a dynamic influence!

I agree with those who set an example. It really is the most powerful way (and pardon the corporate cliche, but it really is important to "walk the talk.")

-- Anonymous, April 29, 2001