In the spirit of Anita's "can we talk" ... the current (re)negotiations regarding free trade in North America (here's a distinctly Canadian look at the thing from the Ottawa Citizen) brought back memories.

Sandy and I went to Ottawa in 1997 on business; I was doing some contract programming work for a software company. The trip formed a lasting impression on me.

The very first thing that struck me was how differently the two nations treat their borders.

Going back into America was basically, "say two hail mary's and PROMISE that you ain't carryin' no drugs, cool, go ahead." No problemo.

Going into Canada, on the other hand, was far more involved. (That'll do for an understatement until a bigger one comes along.) We were suspected of ferrying cigarettes (BIG contraband/black market item because of Canada's high prices/taxes!); they threatened to search our car after they saw a full carton on the floorboard (we brought our own).

But they lost interest in that when they found out that we weren't coming to Canada as tourists, but to WORK. Briefly, because the software firm neglected to Fill Out The Proper Forms In Triplicate, I cooled my heels in Odgensburg, NY for three days during the Great Nor'easter of April, 1997.

(The locals pronounce it "oggensbuug." BEAUTIFUL view of the St. Lawrence river. We were staying at a resort for hunters and fishermen and there was a little restaurant/tavern nearby that served GREAT food, too.)

(But the Canadian software company had to pay for all of this.)

The forms were finally straightened out and Sandy and I went back to the customs checkpoint to gain entry into Canada. The customs folks wanted to search our car (again). We were asked a zillion questions (again -- and I learned later that if I'd said anything contrary to what the software company had put on its Forms In Triplicate, we would have been barred entry -- again.) We were harrassed for about another hour before we were finally given grudging permission to head to Ottawa.

This particular comment is directed, of course, to the current (re)negotiations about free trade. Be interesting to see how that shakes out. Prior to this experience, "NAFTA" was some obscure treaty-thingie that I didn't give a second thought. Canada took the thing SERIOUSLY and even produced copies for me to read in answer to my objections.

The NEXT thing that struck me about Canada was the exchange rate for the money. An Egg McMuffin at MacDonalds cost over two bucks (as opposed to the then-going price of $1.29 back in NC). The exchange rate at the time was about 60% -- a Canadian dollar was worth 60 cents of an American dollar. Call it a form of culture shock.

The people, now, were nice. I had a great time working with them. They were all friendly (with the exception of the French speakers from Quebec, who seemed to resent anyone who spoke only English) and helped us have a great time.

Canadians are fiercely independent, fiercely proud of their country and fiercely determined to remain independent in the Northern Hemisphere. Don't even mention union with the USA, for example; you will (at best) Be Scolded.

But I felt sorry for them as I left. Their economy struggles at the best of times; the country is actually LARGER in land area than the USA, but with far fewer people. The costs of transportion and distribution of goods alone run prices up. Attempts by the control freeks to control things with strange laws and taxation (ex., on cigarettes) are ruining the economy.

(When I was a kid, the exchange rate on the dollars was roughly even. I could -- and did -- spend Canadian coins in NC same as US coinage. No one noticed or cared. Well, they notice now!)

Then there's the question of Quebec, which (naturally) identifies with France as much as the other provinces identify with England. If you read the article linked to above, there's some fuss about the fact that Quebec's prime minister wasn't permitted to speak at the economic summit up there.

But finally, the real reason why Canada piques my interest is because many historians have pointed out that they are what *WE* would be if there'd been no Revolution and independence. If we had remained a British sovereignty/dominion, we would simply be Canada II.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2001

Answers

By the way -- the European architecture on Parliament hill was FABULOUS. We took a bunch of pictures.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2001

Something about growing up in Canada makes people funny. A partial list of comedians from Canada---

Aykroyd, Dan: Comedian, Actor. "Saturday Night Live", "The Blues Brothers" Candy, John: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV"

Carrey, Jim: Comedian, Actor. "The Mask", "Ace Ventura: Pet Detective", "The Truman Show"

Chong, Thomas: Comedian. Half of Cheech and Chong

Dressler, Marie: Actress, Comedienne. "Tillie's Punctured Romance", "Anna Christie", "Min and Bill" (AA), "Dinner at Eight"

Foley, David: Comedian, Actor. "Kids in the Hall", "News Radio" Harron, Don: Actor, Comedian, Author, a.k.a.: Charlie Farquharson, "Hee Haw".

Hartman, Phil: Actor, Comedian. "Saturday Night Live", "News Radio"

Leacock, Stephen: Author, Humourist. "Literary Lapses"

Levy, Eugene: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV"

Little, Rich: Impressionist.

McCulloch, Bruce: Comedian. "Kids in the Hall"

McDonald, Kevin: Comedian. "Kids in the Hall"

MacDonald, Norm: Comedian, Actor: "Saturday Night Live"

McKinney, Mark: Comedian. "Kids in the Hall", "Saturday Night Live"

Mandel, Howie: Comedian, Actor. "St. Elsewhere"

Martin, Andrea: Comedienne, Actress. "SCTV", "Star Trek: DS9"

Michaels, Lorne: Producer, Writer. "Saturday Night Live" Moranis, Rick: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV", "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids"

Myers, Mike: Comedian, Actor. a.k.a.: Wayne Campbell on "Saturday Night Live"

Leslie Neilsen: comic actor

O'Hara, Catherine: Actress. "SCTV" "Beetlejuice", "Home Alone"

Sahl, Mort: Comedian, Actor

Sennett, Mack: Director, Comedian, Actor, Producer. the Keystone Kops, "Tillie's Punctured Romance"

Short, Martin: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV", "Saturday Night Live", "Clifford"

Shuster, Frank: Comedian. Wayne and Shuster made the most guest appearances on the "Ed Sullivan Show"

Smith, Steve: Comedian, Actor. "The Red Green Show"

Steinberg, David: Comedian, Actor, Director. "Designing Women"

Thomas, Dave: Comedian. "SCTV", "Strange Brew", "Grace Under Fire" Thompson, Scott: Comedian Actor. "Kids in the Hall"

Wayne, Johnny: Comedian, Wayne and Shuster made the most guest appearances on the "Ed Sullivan Show"

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2001

I wonder if things have changed, or whether it just depends on who you happen to encounter at the border.

The last time I drove into Canada was in 1978, at Niagara Falls. I had a truckload of musical instruments, so it took a while (maybe an hour) to convince The Authorities that I wasn't entering Canada to work, just as a tourist (although of course I had a gig in Toronto).

Coming back into the US (also at Ogdensburg) was A Memorable Experience. They had about a half dozen empty parking spaces under a galvanized roof (it was raining steadily). So they made me park across the street in the mud. Then they made me empty out the entire back of the truck in the rain, and open all the instrument cases. These contained wooden guitars, clarinet, recorders, etc. I was forced to leave all these expensive wooden instruments sitting out in the rain for over an hour. Of course, my clothes got the same treatment, but getting drenched doesn't ruin clothes and clothes are a lot cheaper.

Now, the bed of my covered pickup had drain holes, which I had covered with duct tape to prevent water from coming in. They made me crawl under the truck (in the mud) and remove all the duct tape. They also had a gorilla-type remove the seats from the cab and *throw* them into the muddy field, while they tore everything apart. And all this time, I never said anything except "yes sir" as respectfully as I could. No help.

And all the while, the Man In Charge was saying "If we find any guns, you're in BIG trouble". Of course, I had no guns, but I knew this was irrelevant to whether they "found" one or not.

Eventually, I guess they got tired to standing in the rain, so they said "OK, you can go now" and went back inside. It took me a long time to get the seats mounted back on the rails in the cab. They didn't offer to help, and I wasn't about to ask. I was covered with mud and grease. The instruments never worked properly again. And I have never again tried to enter the United States by private transportation. The whole experience was one of the primary reasons I stopped making my living as a musician -- I knew I could never recover financially from the damage.

The gig in Toronto fell through anyway.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2001

Poole:

Things sure have changed. I remember going into Canada [must have been about 69 on what is now the I-5 route]. Being graduate students we improvised. As a cooler, we had a case that had been used to ship radioactive compounds. We hadn't removed the warning labels. They kept asking us if we had anything to declare. Over and over. This was a two seat sports car and it was clearly visible. I finally realized what the problem was. I explained and we all had a big laugh. I crossed into Montana at a place with no control.

I remember staying in what would now be called a b&b in Revelstoke. It was operated by a widow; a very nice gray haired lady. She was excited that we were from the US [not many of us came to BC in those days]. She was proud of the fact that she provided her children with the education that permitted them to find jobs in the US and become citizens.

Then there are the people in both southern and northern Alberta. Both very different and different than what you have described. There is true diversity in Canada. If you haven't been to the west, don't try to draw any conclusions.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2001

Stephen,

There is a comedy television show in Canada called "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" which regularly features a skit called "Talking to Americans". In these skits, individual Americans, who clearly know little or nothing about their neighbours to the north, are asked to pontificate at length about Canadian issues. They do. The result is a sad, hilarious march where Americans publicly admit their stupidity by saying things like: “Congratulations Canada on finally getting automatic transmissions” and “Canada, stop the Saskatchewan seal hunt.”

The joke for Canadians is that Americans know nothing about their closest neighbours, largest trading partners and (allegedly) closest friends.

Which leads me to your tome. As a Canadian, I find you characterization of us, based on a single visit to a single part of the country as astonishing. You clearly understood little here about the way we live and have only the vaguest idea of the complicated issue that is Quebec. Yet you feel competent to comment.

"Quebec, which (naturally) identifies with France as much as the other provinces identify with England" is perhaps the single stupidest thing I have ever heard clatter from an Americans mouth. I won’t even bother going into the details, suffice to say that Canada is a diverse, multi-ethnic society whose heritage is no longer strictly tied to its two founding nations.

Additionally, you seem to have no understanding of the world currency market – equating the low Canadian dollar (65 cents) to its economy (which is booming by way and not “struggling” as you suggest). Every single currency in the world is weak against the American dollar because of currency investors. As an exporting country do you think that is a positive advantage?

As someone who travels to the US on business two or three times a month, I have significant experience dealing with your border guards. While I’m sure both sides have their share of endomorphs, I can tell you that getting into the US to work if you are a Canadian is no picnic. Humiliation and belittlement are the common currency and, yes, the NAFTA agreement is waved in your face should your job description not completely comply.

Finally, I laughed out loud when you said you felt “sorry” for us. I will not say (as the UN consistently does) that Canada is the best country in the world to live. I’ve often found those statistically based comparisons are long on hyperbole and short on use. I will say that while we Canadians may bicker amongst ourselves at our own shortcomings as a country, most of us feel damn lucky and proud to live in a land like ours. There may be no consensus on how we want to change for the future – save one – we DON’T want to be like sanctimonious Americans.

Next time you spout an opinion about our country, you might want to have a long drink from the fact jar first.

Best regards,

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2001

Terry,

And you are a typical hypersensitive Canadian. I've met a few of those, too. :)

individual Americans, who clearly know little or nothing about their neighbours to the north ...

And when I was in Ottawa, I had people ask me: if I was from North Carolina, why wasn't I wearing a cowboy hat? And was it true that we used outhouses instead of indoor toilets?

Ignorance on the part of the general population is certainly not limited to Americans.

Which leads me to your tome. As a Canadian, I find you characterization of us, based on a single visit to a single part of the country as astonishing.

If you had bothered to ask, you would have learned that I admit that I didn't experience the whole country. I realize that there are regional differences there, just as there are here in the USA.

Nor do I claim to be an expert on Quebec. But it is a fact -- well-established by polls -- that a large number of French-speaking Quebecois wish to be independent of Canada. Not quite enough to form a majority (yet), but a large number. If you deny that, you're deluding yourself.

And you prove your denial with this comment:

to [Canada's] economy (which is booming by way and not “struggling” as you suggest) ...

Your economy is NOT booming; it is astonishing that you would say this. If it *IS* booming, why do you feel the need to come to the United States "on business" several times a month?[g]

You know what's interesting about that list of famous people from Canada above? Most have become American citizens because they're tired of your confiscatory taxes (much the same as many of Britain's wealthiest people moved here in the 70's and early 80's).

In fact, while I was in Ottawa, I learned another saying from the folks there: "get rich, then MOVE." And the article that I linked to admitted to the "brain drain:" people who finished university in Canada, then moved to the United States in order to make more money.

I laughed out loud when you said you felt “sorry” for us.

I DO feel sorry for you. If you laugh at that, my pity redoubles.

I will not say (as the UN consistently does) that Canada is the best country in the world to live.

... ?!? By what standard?!? Look: I've admitted that the people are friendly enough. It's a pretty country. But some of what you're saying here sounds almost like you're trying to convince yourself (if not your neighbors, who -- as just mentioned -- go to school, then come here to escape your terrible economy).

Next time you spout an opinion about our country, you might want to have a long drink from the fact jar first.

Physician, heal thyself. I think the fact that you'd claim that your economy is "booming" proves (to me, at least) which one of us is in denial here. :)

Take a chill pill. You've got a nice country filled with great people. But if you really think that Americans have a monopoly on sactimony or provincialism or mistaken ideas about neighbors, this will be one final proof of your self-delusion.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2001

And you are a typical hypersensitive Canadian. I've met a few of those, too. :)

Well perhaps…I sometimes feel goaded into it by Americans who formulate an opinion on our country based on an inadequacy of facts. As you continue to do. If you had bothered to ask, you would have learned that I admit that I didn't experience the whole country.

If I had gone to work in Raleigh-Durham for a couple of weeks (as I have done) and then extrapolated that experience as representative of what Americans and their country are like, I’d be laughed off the planet. Yet here you are doing precisely the same thing in reverse. Your economy is NOT booming; it is astonishing that you would say this. If it *IS* booming, why do you feel the need to come to the United States "on business" several times a month?[g]

We are in the midst of an economic boom unlike anything since the 80s. I’m sorry you are not aware of the facts. If you have some facts to support your assertion that I’m living in some sort of economic backwater and don’t know it, I’d be happy to listen.

Perhaps you did not know that Ottawa, the area you visited so many years ago is the second largest enclave in the world of new technology development – only behind silicon valley?

I come to the US several times a month because my US clients ask me to, or I accompany my Canadian clients at their request (I partly own and am a managing partner in a PR firm) as they do business.

You know what's interesting about that list of famous people from Canada above? Most have become American citizens because they're tired of your confiscatory taxes.

If you look at that list and checked, you would be hard-pressed to find that ANY of them had changed their citizenship. But since you have said it, I’m sure you have some proof – right?

Clearly, you are one of those people whose belief system is unshaken by facts – kind of like the Y2K doomers you laughed at in 1999. You know nothing of our country or what it represents – yet you natter on like an illiterate fool as if you had some great insights. You don’t.

What I cannot fathom is that someone from North Carolina – the armpit of America – would have the unmitigated gall to feel sorry for anyone, let alone citizens from a great country like Canada. Self hypnosis is a very powerful force I suppose.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

Canadians appear to be a bold people. :)

Z

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

A guy with a handle like Johnny Canuck will just have to jump in here, eh?!

Stephen, it's true that Canadians can be hyper-sensitive, but Americans can also be touchy too, n'est-ce pas? Look what happens when foreigners question American gun-control policies, the death penalty, its system of government, the war on drugs etc.......

One thing that Terry didn't mention about trying to get into the States is that a US Immigration official can impose an ON-THE-SPOT 5 year ban on entry to the US if he/she deems it appropriate. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does there is no right of appeal (Jefferson must be rolling in his grave).

There was also a bit of a hullabaloo last year when the US Congress was considering imposing Visa requirements (and we're not talking about a credit card!) on Canadians visiting the US. After some spirited lobbying by governors in US border states, who forsaw the massive disruption to travel and trade that such a move would cause, the issue was dropped.

I can understand why Terry gets a bit ticked off when an American, on the basis of a single visit to one city, sounds off about Canada. Canadians know way more about the US than Americans do about Canada. We read US publications and watch US television channels. Most middle- class Canadians have been to the States at least a dozen times. Many have been far more than that. In the last 7 years I have been to San Francisco, Colorado Springs, Chicago, Boston, Buffalo, New York, Atlanta, Miami, Key West, Tampa, Baltimore, Washingon/Virginia and good ole North Carolina (the bit I was in was very pretty [smile]). Stephen, when you've been to Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Montreal and Halifax we can have another chat about your impressions of Canada.

I mentioned this before on one of the old forums, but Canada and the US are very different countries, despite surface similaries. The differences start in the history of formation; our Constitution promises "Peace, Order and Good Government" while the US one famously promises "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of cheap gas" (just kidding).

We are a much more European nation that you are. Many of our institutions and national characteristics look to Britain and the rest of continental Europe. As you note Stephen, we are a fiercely proud people but our pride manifests itself in different ways than American pride. We are not flag wavers, but - to paraphrase JFK - do not mistake our quietness for lack of passion.

You are correct about a brain drain, but its scope is in dispute (I don't have a source on that right to hand). What you don't appreciate, perhaps, is that Canada gains far more talented professionals from other countries (in Europe and Asia particularly) than it loses to the US.

We do have higher taxes than the US, but when compared to the OECD we are middle of the pack. Regardless, Canadians have been, heretofore, prepared to give more to their governments in order to receive more in government services (principally health care and the social safety net). The extent to which that desire remains undimmed will be one of the most interesting points in Canadian politics over the next decade.

As usual, just my C$0.02

Regards

JC

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Terry,

I sometimes feel goaded into it by Americans who formulate an opinion on our country based on an inadequacy of facts. As you continue to do.

Just as you do about Americans. I can only go by what I read, what I hear and what I'm told, same as you.

Back to that television show that you mentioned. You ignored my comment about Ottawans and their preconceived notions about Americans (and North Carolinians, in my case, in particular[g]). I assure you, if we wanted to (what would be the point?), we could produce a similar show that questioned Canadians "on the street," as it were, that would be just as hilarious.

(But again: what would be the point?)

here you are doing precisely the same thing in reverse.

No, that's where you've misunderstood me. Actually, I just wanted to strike up a conversation.

We are in the midst of an economic boom unlike anything since the 80s. I’m sorry you are not aware of the facts.

Your economy IS doing better than it has in recent years and I guess to you, that's a "boom." Congratulations on getting your unemployment rate down to under 7% (according to Statistics Canada) in particular. I'll leave it at that.

If you have some facts to support your assertion that I’m living in some sort of economic backwater ...

Sigh. See? You're being hypersensitive. I never said you were in a "backwater." If I weren't an American, my very next choice for a place to live would either be Canada or Australia. I consider your country anything but a backwater.

I do believe that you have some disadvantages that are inherent to your small population/land area, etc., etc. (as mentioned above) but that's just my opinion.

(And I'm not even saying that the disadvantages outweigh the benefits across the board.)

Perhaps you did not know that Ottawa, the area you visited so many years ago is the second largest enclave in the world of new technology development

I was told that when I was there, that it was Silicon Valley North. "Hey, Corel is based here!!!" I investigated that claim and found that it was more marketing hype than anything else. Sure, there's a lot of high-tech stuff up there, but the Research Triangle in NC (which you say you've visited) is considerably bigger, just to name one. It's home to IBM, a MAJOR Siemens subsidiary and a host of other companies.

(But then I guess we need to define "bigger." Personally, I think it's kindof pointless; who cares?)

If you look at that list and checked, you would be hard-pressed to find that ANY of them had changed their citizenship.

Whether they have forsaken Canadian citizenship is irrelevant to my point, which was that they've chosen to live and work in the United States. Some of them HAVE changed citizenship; others have dual citizenship, yet still others work here as resident aliens.

Johnny,

Welcome back, long time no see. :)

Americans can also be touchy ... [about] ... gun-control policies, the death penalty, its system of government, the war on drugs etc.......

I can't speak for all Americans, but speaking for myself, I don't generally CARE what people in other countries think about these things. Like most conservatives, I'm also a provincialist: we have our laws, you have your laws, leave us alone. :)

And if you point out a flaw in America, one of the big differences is, you'll find a zillion people (and three lobbying organizations) who will usually agree with you![g]

One thing that Terry didn't mention about trying to get into the States is that a US Immigration official can impose an ON-THE-SPOT 5 year ban on entry to the US if he/she deems it appropriate. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does there is no right of appeal (Jefferson must be rolling in his grave).

They can only do that if they have STRONG reasons to do so and there IS a "right of appeal:" if it's a serious enough case, the Canadian government contacts our State Department and they hash it out. Happens all the time.

There was also a bit of a hullabaloo last year when the US Congress was considering imposing Visa requirements (and we're not talking about a credit card!) on Canadians visiting the US.

Whoa, stop. Now, Terry just scolded me for speaking without detailed knowledge of his country; you have just done the same.

That proposal never had a serious chance for passage. It certainly didn't rank in the Top Ten Concerns Of The Day for Congress. That was a dumb proposal by some dumb Congresscreatures that died a (well-deserved) death in short order.

Shoot, our Congress makes all sorts of inexplicably dumb proposals. Trust me. :)

I can understand why Terry gets a bit ticked off when an American, on the basis of a single visit to one city, sounds off about Canada.

What you and Terry continue to miss is that I was not sounding off about your entire history, ethos, right to exist, quality of life, etc., etc. I *DO* have a right to voice an opinion on my experience (while ADMITTING that it was limited) -- and I did just that.

You have that same right.

I mentioned this before on one of the old forums, but Canada and the US are very different countries, despite surface similaries.

... which is part of what I tried to point out to Terry, only to receive a thorough scolding! Go figure. :)

You are correct about a brain drain, but its scope is in dispute

Again, my knowledge is based on what I've read in Canadian papers and what I've been told by Canadians who have moved here (ie, the very brains who have been "drained" from Canuck Country[g]).

What's ironic is that these people STILL defend Canada vociferously. They tell me (regularly) (anytime) (repeatedly) how much better the schools are, how much better the medical system is, how much more efficient the Canadian government is, etc., etc.

Why, Canada is the land of clean air, pure water and sturdy women (and if you don't believe it, just ask them; they'll be glad to tell you ... and tell you ... and tell you ...)[g]

So ... when I ask the begged question -- "so why'd you move here?" -- they get red-faced. "Wahhlll ... uh ... I can make more money," is the usual (mumbled) reply.

Which -- once again -- is basically what I said above, is it not? I didn't say that to be contentious or smart-mouthed. I was simply RELATING WHAT THEY HAVE SAID TO ME. I was simply commenting on WHAT YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT SAYS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

(Incidentally, the doctor who saved my wife's eyesight, one of the best neuropthamologists (sp?) in the world, is a Canuck. I'm glad he's here; Canada's loss was our gain in that case.)

As usual, just my C$0.02

It's worth more than that. Don't be such a stranger. :)

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

My goodness Stephen but you must have an awful lot of free time. I am envious.

I assure you, if we wanted to (what would be the point?), we could produce a similar show that questioned Canadians "on the street," as it were, that would be just as hilarious. (But again: what would be the point?)

I can assure you, that you could not. Why? Because, as a matter of course, Canadians know far more about America than America knows about Canada, which is nothing. When you see Americans congratulating us on “finally getting FM radio” or “congratulations Canada on finally getting 800 miles of paved road” and “ congratulations Canada on finally moving to the 24 hour clock!” - ya gotta laugh!

For instance, as naïve as some Canadians are, most of us know that not ALL folks from North Carolina live in a trailer park.(g)

Whether they have forsaken Canadian citizenship is irrelevant to my point, which was that they've chosen to live and work in the United States.

Ooh boy. Your arrogance has no limits does it? If a Canadian wants to work in the movie industry, she/he has to locate themselves in Hollywood. Does that mean they have “forsaken” Canada or Canadian citizenship? Hardly. As Dan Akroyd is famously quoted as saying “I may have to live down there 8 months of the year, but I don’t have to like it and I don’t have to be like them”

Stephen, the crux of the matter is that many Americans believe that theirs is the Right and True way To Live – the American Way. They cannot understand that there may be other options and other societal models that are just as successful. Just because we are not like you, does not make us inferior – in fact we believe we have many advantages to the way our society conducts itself. I am (of course) too modest to itemize them.

When you open your gaping maw to let escape a knee-slapper like: “If we had remained a British sovereignty/dominion, we would simply be Canada II.” You invite reproach.

p.s. You could do a lot worse.

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Terry:

Canadians know far more about America than America knows about Canada, which is nothing

I guess that I consider that statement a gross over generalization. I could limit my view to this thread and say half of all Canadians don't close their bold tags. That would be you. *<)))

It has been years since I have been to eastern Canada. Then, I can say the same for NY and NJ. When I go visit my family, I can stand on the porch at night and look at the lights from Victoria. I have friends in Lethbridge who don't consider anyone east of Medicine Hat to be Canadian. They also question the species designation. No my experience is that one cannot narrowly classify either Canadians or Americans. At least from the diverse group of both that I know and work with.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Terry,

My goodness Stephen but you must have an awful lot of free time. I am envious.

No, I type about 200 words a minute (well ... 140 once you subtract the mistakes[g]). I prefer typing to just about any other form of communication, in fact, because it's the fastest for me.

I can assure you, that you could not. Why? Because, as a matter of course, Canadians know far more about America than America knows about Canada, which is nothing.

That may be true in general -- I'll even grant that Canada's public education system is better than ours (not that that's granting a whole lot, mind you[g]). But that's not true across the board. The incidents that I related from Ottawa weren't made up; they happened. I told another guy, "I'm from North Carolina" and he said, "where's that?"

Hey, they've never interviewed me. I knew you guys had FM radio a long time ago. :)

not ALL folks from North Carolina live in a trailer park.(g)

No, that's SOUTH Carolina. :)

Stephen, the crux of the matter is that many Americans believe that theirs is the Right and True way To Live – the American Way. They cannot understand that there may be other options and other societal models that are just as successful.

Sure. But you can't see that Canadians frequently practice an equal and opposite form of "arrogance." They smugly think (know) (are convinced) that their way of life is better, that all of America is a dope-infested, crime-ridden hell hole that mostly produces crack babies and acid rain.

Just because we are not like you, does not make us inferior

There you go. I NEVER SAID IT DID. You ASSUMED that I meant that, when in fact, I did not.

If we had remained a British sovereignty/dominion, we would simply be Canada II.” You invite reproach.

Go reproach the Canadian who wrote the article that I based that comment on. In fact, that line was almost a direct quote.

p.s. You could do a lot worse.

Sure I could. I could assume that the Great White North skits were documentaries instead of comedy. :)

Z,

I've always wanted to go to Medicine Hat.

Any city with a name that cool has to rule. :)

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Poole:

There is nothing wrong with Medicine Hat, but if you want to go to a great place, go to Slave Lake (this is not a reference to your Southern Heritage, it is a place in Alberta). Do tie weights to your legs or the mosquitos will carry you to their lair. Good fishing.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Stephen,

Just a small grammatical correction. You said,

"Shoot, our Congress makes all sorts of inexplicably dumb proposals. Trust me. :)"

It should have been,

"Shoot our Congress! [It] makes all sorts of inexplicably dumb proposals."

Nick

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

”But you can't see that Canadians frequently practice an equal and opposite form of "arrogance." They smugly think (know) (are convinced) that their way of life is better, that all of America is a dope-infested, crime-ridden hell hole that mostly produces crack babies and acid rain.”

No, in fact we think the US is populated by tabacky-chewin’, gun lovin’, foreigner-fearin’, minority hatin’, white-wing dim-bulbs who think the sun rises out of its collective backside :)

”If we had remained a British sovereignty/dominion, we would simply be Canada II.” You invite reproach. Go reproach the Canadian who wrote the article that I based that comment on. In fact, that line was almost a direct quote.”

I read the article. Nowhere does it use that quote, or anything approximating it. Nowhere is this idea even broached. Perhaps your typing velocity mesmerized your brain into believing it to be so?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

First, the economy in Canada is also as diverse as its people. In British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the Maritimes, they're dying. In Alberta, where I'm from, the .gov will be formally announcing a $10B surplus for this past quarter. Our economy is ***BOOMING***, and has been for the last 15 years.

Second, they're are no real independent Canadians east of the Manitoba border. They're mostly just a raving pack of socialist wannbe communists, in our opinion. We most definitely relate way better to our yankee neighbors here in the west than we do anything east of Manitoba. And it is a SAD thing that our constitution only *promises* peace and safety, and doesn't GUARANTEE life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness like our neighbors. The Canadian version is nothing but a fuckin placebo in the place of the real thing, which happens to be the yankee version.

Canada is diverse, alright, but it is mostly filled with propagandized and dumbed-down socialists who look to the EU as a good role model (idiots), or the UN for either approval, as was already done here, or as the next logical governing body for us "fiercely independent" sheeple. Shit, most stupid Canadians either support the ICC, or don't know anything about the thing, yet the assholes those easterners keep electing have endorsed the behemouth already. You know what they say, you get what you deserve, and stupidy deserves every bad thing it gets.

Canada used to be a great country. It's not anymore. It is, for the most part, nothing but a collection of illiterate socialists who haven't the foggiest idea that they're even socialists, or that that's a bad thing. And this comes from a born and raised red-blooded western Canadian who used to buy into that propaganda about yanks being the scourge of the earth and us being the only civilized and decent good guys, but has sinced removed the blinders and sees people for what they are. Here's a clue for those who have ears to hear; it's not the yanks who are smelling out the joint.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

"Second, they're are no real independent Canadians east of the Manitoba border. They're mostly just a raving pack of socialist wannbe communists, in our opinion."

As a lad from Calgary, I can assure all of our eastern friends that not all of us wear a cowboy hat and have necks as red as this guy. Talk about the stereotypical stupid westerner. I don't know who he is referring to when he says "our opinion" but it's nobody I know.

As a Canadian and an Albertan, I can say I love my country. Full stop. I don't hate the US (I was born In Oklahoma - family emigrated when I was 5) I love the diversity of our beliefs and the mostly common ground we share with our neighbours to the south.

I believe Mr. Poole that Flanagan's touchiness with your article may have some validity. Your comments about border guards, Quebec and the dollar indicate your knowledge may be lacking in someone with an opinion. Let's all agree that we are extremely lucky to live on the same continent together and leave it at that.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Hey looky here, we got a gen-u-ine alienated Westerner in our midst.

Yeah, it's a real pain when 2 provinces (ON and Que) that have 2/3 of the population decide national elections. Here's a clue: try and have your "populist" politicians hide the red in their necks with bandanas and it might help your cause with us "raving pack of socialist wannbe communists". Having them shut up about man walking the earth with dinosaurs would probably help too (although ol' Stock-boy Day may not be around for much longer anyway).

Calling Alberta diverse is like saying Jean Chretien is a gifted speaker. Alberta is mighty white compared to Van, TO and Mtl - you guys have got 2 Chinese restaurants in Calgary now?

Hey, trolling and ant-hill kicking is fun. We should do it more often.......

Eastern regards

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

...Eastern regards.

That's the equivalent to a Bush (or Cretin) campaign promise, or a Clinton oath to fidelity.

A man's neck gets red from hard work and a fierce devotion to independence. Socialism breeds everything unholy and unwholesome, and is a distinct characteristic of metro Ontario/Quebec. Better my neck be red than my politics, and last time I checked (Alberta's most recent election), so do the vast majority of Albertans.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Terry,

The article that pondered what America would have looked like absent the Revolution appeared a year or two ago at Frontpage Magazine online (IIRC). THAT article, and not the one linked to above, made the point that America would have been Canada II if it hadn't declared its independence.

Johnny,

Now, I'll buy that. I moved from NC to AL because the economy there in the Fayetteville/Ft. Bragg area was *WAY* too dependent on the military. When the 82nd got shipped out for Desert Shield/Storm, that whole area *DIED*. Businesses that had been around for decades closed their doors and never reopened.

I moved here and the difference was night and day. Right now, things are booming in 'Bama.

I'll buy that Canada is much the same, with some areas doing well while others struggle.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

"The article that pondered what America would have looked like absent the Revolution appeared a year or two ago at Frontpage Magazine online (IIRC). THAT article, and not the one linked to above, made the point that America would have been Canada II if it hadn't declared its independence."

Odd that you would wait until now to mention that salient little pearl - don't you think? While I didn't find the article in question on the Frontline site, I did find lots of other "hate-Canada" articles that perfectly encapsulate the American conservative view of my country.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Terry,

FrontPAGE, not Frontline. Here.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Yes, I meant to say Frontpage, a compendium of articles on Canada that can be distilled to this: "They're different from us - they must be Marxists - and that's bad. The end."

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Terry,

I didn't say I agreed with everything at Frontpage magazine, and besides, that wasn't my point. You accused ME of being the person who said that the United States would be "Canada II" absent the revolution; I was simply making sure that you understand that, not only was I NOT the first person to say such a thing, in fact, I got the idea from a CANADIAN.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

I don't mean to quibble Stephen, but it was long into the discussion before you brought that up. Perhaps if you could cite the article?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

I live on Vancouver island, and pesonally i think we should lift anchor and leave north america completely. Why? because it breeds too many people with too much time on their hands to endlessly debate the dubious merits of both their countries over the commercially spawned electronic medium that is their bastard offspring ie : the internet. Maybe it is time to move to fucking paraguay. Americans (north) disust the entire world, not just each other

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

This thread lives!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001