Hi; I have a question for the goat knowledgeable: I bought a registered Nubian doe kid and found after I brought her home that she has a (in my opinion) severe underbite. I trusted the lady I got her from and the kid was very active when I picked her up so I didn't look closely at her mouth. In all fairness, this lady may not know this is a defect. Now I wonder what I ought to do--how bad is an underbite? I know it means she can't eat as effectively. I'd like to sell her and buy another from someone else, but I couldn't sell her without pointing out the defect to a prospective buyer, so I know I will lose money, if anyone would even want to buy her. She is otherwise a beautiful animal, and I'm already attached to her. I want goats just for milk for us, not to show. Can I just keep her, breed her, milk her? Please tell me how severe this is, and will she pass it on to her kids? Her dam and sire don't have an underbite. Thanks,

anonymous 'cause the seller might be a lurker here:o) Don't email me directly 'cause it'll bounce:o)

-- anonymous (fake address@fakeaddress.com), April 19, 2001

Answers

I'd really have to see the "underbite" you are talking about, but are you aware that goats don't have upper teeth in the front? Only gum on the top and cutting teeth on the bottom. They have stong teeth for mashing and cutting, upper and lower, in the back. Hopefully, this is what you are seeing and referring to as "underbite." Otherwise....

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), April 19, 2001.

Last spring, we took in the same kind of goat...a Nubian doeling with an underbite. Hers is not severe, does not affect her eating, and to me is barely noticeable. It IS a defect, and I'm told that it skips a generation (her kids won't get it but her grandkids might.) I'm also told that sometimes the defect is much more severe, to the point where the goat can't suck or eat, and should be put down. But, thank God that is not the case with our Belinda...she is a doll-baby! If, as you say, you are already attached to this little gal, you should keep her as a pet. Using her for milk is a bit tricky, unless you plan to keep all her babies as pets, or give them to others as pets. Her offspring really should not be allowed to reproduce, because that's when the defect is likely to show up. I'm sure Vickie will have more information on this.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), April 19, 2001.

Hi, we also have an Alpine kid who has a slight underbite. We treasure him dearly. From what I understand it is a defect and breeding one with it would not be a good thing. It is true that sometimes it is severe enough where they can not eat and do have to be put down. I would suggest that you bring it to the sellers attention. I know if I were someone who sold goats I would want to know. I too would just choose to have her as a pet, I know how easily it is to bond and giving one up after bonding would be really hard. The added expense of keeping one as a pet rather than a milker is not going to be high either. Have fun with her. I know I love my funny faced "Champ". He is a real joy. But then again, all my goats are just pets, so I am a "pet advocate" especially for the ones who wouldn't have a chance otherwise. Take care, Julie

-- Julie (dabanks@harbornet.net), April 19, 2001.

Obviously bring this up to the seller. If the dental pads don't meet than you shouldn't register her, (you don't register goats with obvious faults) which would make her pet price considerably lower. A mild mouth fault is a free kid with no papers here.

It's a simple recessive gene, obviously not a mating the owner would want to repeat. If her dam is fine than the dam is carrying a recessive gene for under bite, bred, to get this kid, to a buck that also carries this recessive gene. Bred to a buck who doesn't carry it this same doe wouldn't necessarily ever pass this again. With your kid the gene is now dominant, meaning that if bred even to a buck with just a recessive gene, and there are lots of Nubians carrying this gene, most of her kids will carry this. She will make a fine pet, if this is just mild, she would also make a good candidate for a complete outcross at breeding, if Nubian breed her Boer or LaMancha. Since I don't know who you are, I would have a goat person look at the doeling, if it is in your 'opinion' severe, and you know something about goats, than I would put her down. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 19, 2001.

I don't actually know if this is a severe fault--I am new to goats, and know nothing except what I've read on this forum, but I have five other goats whose mouths don't look like this; her lower lip protrudes past the upper. Her teeth are barely visible when her mouth is closed. I am bottle feeding her and she sucks just fine. I guess I will tell the seller about it. I just feel stupid for not noticing until I got her home. Thanks so much to all of you for your responses. I really had planned to breed her and sell the kids--that was my reason for buying registered goats, so that the kids would be sellable. Otherwise I could have gotten a free unregistered Nubian from a friend of mine who has too many goats!!

Thanks again;o)

-- anonymous (anonymous@fakeadress.com), April 19, 2001.

I raise Alpines and in my experiences i have seen the overbite you are talking about, it is referred to as "parrot mouth" it can usually from genetics. There are some lines that have the gene, to find out you have to talk to breeders and research bloodlines to know. Your situation brings to mind a Nubian i saw st the shows locally here. She is a beautiful doe who is owned by a 4-H girls. this doe, despite the overbite is fine, she eats well and even has torn up the shown ring with some wins. I would definately mention this to the breeder. As a breeder I would definately want to know. But then i would have looked closely and mentioned the defect to the buyer. Did the breeder know this? it must have been obvious. Most breeders will make it right. Good luck.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 19, 2001.

As long as she is eating well, there is no need at all to put her down. If you choose not to keep her as a pet, then I am sure someone else would be happy to. Take care, Julie

-- Julie (dabanks@harbornet.net), April 19, 2001.

If the lower lip protrudes past the top then it is not parrot mouth, she looks more like a bulldog, right? And if both parents had normal mouths then yes,it is caused by a recessive gene. BUT the recessive gene is not now dominant in this goat. It is still a recessive gene, just homozygous in this doe, meaning that is the only kind of mouth she can ever pass on from her side of the family. If bred to a buck who does not carry the gene,ALL the kids will be carriers for the gene but have normal mouths. If she is bred to a buck with a normal mouth that carries the gene, half the kids will have a bad bite, half will have good bites and still carry the bad gene.

My opinion on what to do with her? Let's look at all the angles. You could keep her. Right now she is gaining weight well because the underbite does not affect the bottle feeding much. When she begins to eat grass, hay and solid food it could well be a different story, because the lower teeth have to match the upper palate to tear off the grass or hay. If you babied her and fed her pellets and special feeds she might grow and have decent fleshing. Otherwise it is a definite possibility that she could always look thin and lackluster while the others are fat. If you breed her and milk her, she may or may not milk well depending on how well she is able to eat the hay and grass. But the serious element to consider is this: every single one of her kids are going to be carriers of that gene. Are you willing to kill every single one of her kids for meat even when their mouths are beautiful, knowing that they're carriers of that gene? It's not helpful to the breed to continue spreading this gene around by selling carriers that look just fine, but pass the gene down generation after generation. I would cull her. It might be hard now, but consider how much harder it would be to cull all her kids. If the original breeders of this line had culled as they should have, you would not now be facing the agony of having to make this decision.

-- Chamoisee (chamoisee@yahoo.com), April 19, 2001.

If the under bite is not "severe", it may correct with age. A minor under bite will often disappear by the time the kid is 6 months old. As Vickie said, you need to have an experienced goat person look at the kid to determine the relative severity of the under bite.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 19, 2001.

Depending on how severe it is, it may correct itself. I have a friend whose doe has an underbite,very noticable, who received her GCH as a 2 year old with some very hard competition - so it would depend on what the rest of her was like. You wouldn't want to breed her to a buck who also carried this fault, but I would keep an eye on it and see how she develops. As long as she is eating well she definitely should be okay as a milker and may even show nicely.

-- Leslie Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 20, 2001.