While going for a long walk today in town I had this great insite into the the way most folks live. Its Easter and all the churches are full and as I walked by all those folks I noticed how many were parking, in front of Fire plugs, blocking driveways, in no parking zones, etc. Even when they were walking by, their heads were down, with no smiles and walking thru red lights. Can you imagine blocking someones driveway then walking into church? It dawned on me that people live by emotion while we should be living by our principles! Its probably worse in that I doubt most people know what their principles are. Anyway I think we should pay less attention to how we feel and think more about always living within our principles! Heres a couple of my own. Live simply And be responsible. Does this make sense or am I just blowin smoke!!!! Ha.......With love Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

Answers

Kirk - it makes perfect sense to me. Your two are also two of mine. And I agree - sometimes the folks who talk the "best religion" are truly the greatest offenders at rudeness! But, I have to add, that there are some people out there who do live what they preach.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

Makes loads of sense to me!! How about the folks who park in handicap parking places? And some of the most religious people I know never set foot in a church and yet will go out of their way to help you.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

Hmmmm, actually Kirk, it's how I FEEL that helps me stick to my principles. If I've compromised them, I feel crummy.

I really can't imagine why people who claim to be followers of Christ can behave this way and think nothing of it. It's reasons such as this that many non-Christians think that "Christians" are hypocrites. I wonder, too, how the Amish that will hide a lameness in a horse in order to sell it square that with their conscience, never mind their religion. Not to pick on any particular religion, though -- the hypocritical Neo-Pagans are out there too . . . . .

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

Kirk.... I know exactly what you are talking.... only I notice it in a different way... Friday night in our town... course, everyone knows what everyone drives... but the town is full at the bars and most of the folks are church goers....

not that they can't go and drink... everyone is entitled... but these are the same folks condemning me cuz I don't darken the church door...

what confuses them more... is helping them out in a time of crisis..... me a non-church goer????

oddly enough when my hubby died 7 years ago... I had some help from the christians... but more help from the non-church goers...and it has been on going...

Marcia... I agree with you 1000%

sorry... I'm not trying to bash Christians... as with any group there are those that make one wonder... I was raised Catholic and I'm glad for the opportunity for my up bringin... and I have been touched by many christian lives... but I too understand the oxymorns.....it's just hard trying to "prove" per say... that one doesn't have to enter a church to be "good"...

off my soap box....

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

I am sorry that so many Christians are so unaware of how their actions give such poor witness. Makes me very sad....I, since participating on the CS forum and here, am so much more aware that people do watch us and expect something. I like your principles Kirk, and hope that they are apparent in my life at least some of the time.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

It is a Seneca ,as well as other tribes, belief that the consequences of every action should be taken into account for the seven generations to come.This may have little effect on where you park your horse, but it certainly made it Easier(?) on all those important decisions. Frankly , I feel that thinking and feeling for the short term is partly responsible for this whole morality mess we've allowed to become established. Immediate gratification has become a mainstay, and truly conscientious thought has been branded as odd,saddening really.Fortunate for us all if you are responsible for yourself and your behavior Kirk because there are fewer and fewer who think that way, in fact the generation coming up now ,in my opinion, sees accountability as very unimportant. This could prove a dangerous trend indeed.

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

We are so thankful that all the Christian celebrations have pagan roots too. Seems like you can't lose. We had a great Easter, we regard it as a celebration of spring. Didn't have to drive anywhere! We cooked the last turkey from the freezer, had fresh asparagus from the garden walked down to our waterfall to work off the meal. We enjoyed the antics of our chicks and the young lambs. The garden is growing and we are enjoying th fresh sheeps milk. Homesteading life is good;

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

I don't mean to pick on Christians but what I saw today just made me think about it. It just seems that the problems of us humans come from acting from our emotions. Getting up grumpy and kicking the dog or feeling good so I'll be generous, that type of thing. A completely thoughtout principle and a concious choice to live buy it, no matter how we feel, seems like a much more satisfing existance. Hey a direction to aim! Can I do it? Not always, but if you know its there you can get back to it if you stray...Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

I couldn't agree more Kirk, but Christianity doesn't have a corner on hypocrites any more than it has a corner on salvation.

I think the whole idea of integrity is to integrate emotion with principal, to where we become emotionally invested in the higher principals that are presumably rooted in good sense and reason. I suspect, when all the frills and regional and cultural differences are removed from the various ethical and moral systems from around the world there is a deep and common root to them all that makes profound "sense".

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

I don't agree that we as humans operate too much from emotion. I think too many of our behaviors are precipated by not being in TOUCH with how we REALLY feel.

If one gets up grumpy and kicks the dog, there is anger within that most likely has little or nothing to do with the dog. All the reasoned thought and principles in the world are not going to disipate that anger. It needs to be brought out into the sunshine and dealt with.

When one FEELS great, has come to realize their own beauty within,and that of everyone else (even George Bush's!), recognizes that life is terrific and happening just as it should, one has no urge to kick the dog, block driveways, steal that ream of paper from the office, yell at the kids, take drugs, get drunk, or beat oneself up when we fall short. When we have gained that peaceful place within where know all is well, we just naturally feel generous, because everything we do is simply generated by love.

I believe that our emotions are our best part. It's what makes us distinctly human. (Some people argue that other animals have emotions, but my observations of many species over the years tell me that their emotions of not at all of the same caliber as that of us humans, but that may be fodder for another thread). I actually think our emotions are the voice of God. I believe we are directed in which roads to take by them, that they work in tandem with our intuition, and when we are truly in touch with them, they lead us to the upper realms of consciousness.

We as individuals and as a culture would be happier and more peaceful if we were taught as children how to remain in touch with how we feel, to listen to that still small voice, instead of hiding it deep under layers of personal and societal baggage which covers our authenticity and causes us the anguish of disconnection, both with ourselves and with each other. Perhaps those silly people who parked where they shoudn't have believe they are bad people for not going to church more than twice a year, and were focused on getting there in time. Perhaps they didn't even notice the fireplug, because where they really wanted to be was with their mother, who is dying in a nursing home, but religious guilt brought them to the church on Easter Sunday.

I'm not trying to excuse bad behaviour, but seeking to see why people do things helps me understand myself better. Explaining is not the same as excusing. On the other hand, I too have to constantly remind myself..... "let him who is without sin..." well I'm sure you know the rest.

Say Kirk, you often express wonderful emotion in your posts. Your continuing saga of the little boy next door is wrought with it, and from my vantage point you are operating entirely on emotion (love) in your whole interaction with this child, and it brought out the very best within you.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

I'm sitting at my desk, touched by having read such thoughtful responses. What a fine assemblage of folk here...

I didn't notice anyone being particularly insensitive or thoughtless yesterday at church. I was the one closest to the fireplug, and I parked the required distance away. :-) But it's a new week and plenty of time to forget most of what we praised on Sunday...

It's hard to hold one's principles up constantly. It's easier if one works to develop a habit of it. That takes discipline (what's that other word....disciple?)

btw, we had a little toast to our pagan roots at our Easter dinner last night. Easter (Oester, Estrus, etc.) and all the birth and renewal is a fine compliment to the re-birth and resurrection that Christians celebrate. A good time was had by all!

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

Sheepish is right, this is a really nice group of people. I'm enjoying this forum immensely.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

Hey Kirk,

I lived across the street from a Catholic church for several years. Not only did people park so close to my drive that I couldn't get in or out, but I actually had people park IN my drive! One day I couldn't stand it any more. I went in to the church and stood at the back until there was a quiet moment. Then in a very loud voice I said "EXCUSE ME, BUT WOULD THE PERSON PARKED ACROSS THE STREET IN MY DRIVEWAY PLEASE MOVE THEIR CAR? Someone finally did. No one parked in my drive after that.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

I think Earthmama made some very good points for emotions. I truly believe that the greatest gift, no matter what spiritual path we are following, is love. Without love we are left with emptiness. We can have all the discipline in the world and follow our "principles" to the letter, but it will be our love that sets us apart from other species IMHO.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

I hope my prior post on this thread did not suggest to anyone that I am on the side of emotionless reaction , I am not. I agree that emotions are as healthy as they are vital. I do feel that there are many decisions throughout the course of ones' life that are best rendered with emotion firmly in check, as emotion often leads to that irresponsible decision,lacking accountability. I have seen in my teenagers and their friends (as per usual I suppose) that incessant lack of care for being held accountable for their actions and decisions,and this is scary enough.What bothers me moreso, is those at the next level(ie adults,20's,30'setc)continuing the trend. Impulsive thinking and decision making when combined with an entire idea of not being accountable for same, is purely dangerous,at a number of different levels.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

Debra: That was good for a huge belly laugh!!! I wasn't kidding about Easter. It was chaos. Most of those people live very close to church and they could have walked. Thanks..... Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2001

I always thought that humans acted from their emotions, but I am willing to look at it from a different perspective that humans act/react from not being in touch with their emotions. It makes sense. I don't think christians have a corner on being jerks, but I sure get tired of that holyer than thou attitude I encounter, fortunately it not so often since I put my foot down to my husband a few years ago and stopped going to his church.

Debra, that is so funny.

Blessings, Judy

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Earthmama, I was getting upset and hoping you were speaking in terms of an oxymoron when you mentioned g w bush and inner beauty in the same breath, and then I realized my emotions were running away with me. I guess I have a long road to travel. I agree that emotions make us humans rather unique but i'm not quite sure if it be our blessing or curse. Since emotions are subjectively created it would seem that it takes them out of the realm of being under our control. That inner voice, the real essence of what we are, our connection to g......d seems to me to be beyond emotion. I'm not advocating giving up emotion but perhaps being centered enough that we don't get caught up in our emotions which often times we later regret. 'recognizes that life is terrific and happening just as it should', '

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Whoops hit the wrong button. 'everything we do is simply generated by love'. Or......is love generated by acceptance of everything as it is? OOOOOOOhhhhh this strains my brain but thanks for prodding what's left of it. It's getting late. namaste jz

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001

JZ: Really like where you were going with this. The thing about emotions is you have to lump then all together, good and bad. The jails are full of people who act from emotion. I think to act from principle or virtue would elavate us one step higher on the evolution scale. Plus like you said we don't have control of emotions but a person can be responsible for them. Using responsiblity as a context for you life. Now thats a beautiful thing.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001

jz, methinks you got upset because its so much fun to demonize one's "enemies"! We all do it; it makes us feel (temporarily) powerful. But I really DO believe everyone has beauty within, even Georgie. Trouble is, most of us have forgotten it, and so act out of fear instead of love. I think when we participate in any negative behaviour , we are acting out of fear. To recognize it when it happens, to be completely aware of our emotions, leaves the door open to deal with the whys, and then work on truly eliminating those behaviours.

'everything we do is simply generated by love'. Or......is love generated by acceptance of everything as it is?

YES!!!! That's it!!!! Absolutely!! When we come to the point of truly accepting everyone and everything as they are, there is a 'peace that passeth all understanding.' That does not mean condoning bad behavior, but it means accepting that this bad behavior happened for a reason, a good reason, even if we don't know right now what it is. Most of us have a problem with wanting to control other people's behavior; my own biggie is bad drivers! When someone is tailgating me, I become angry and want to slam on my brakes (very intelligent). I have become much better lately, since I stopped to examine why I get so mad. I think I'm trying to teach them a lesson, because I'm wise and they're stupid and clueless. Fact is, I am trying to control them, which is really stupid and clueless! My silly little game won't affect them in the least, after they pass me and go on their way.

"Since emotions are subjectively created it would seem that it takes them out of the realm of being under our control."

That's the whole point! As a pastor I had as a kid used to say, "You can't stop a bird from landing on your head, but you can stop it from building a nest in your hair." What I think Kirk is saying is that he would intrepret this to mean we should CONTROL our emotions, act on principle, be good because we should. What I am saying is that human beings are very complex organisms, that we react from a myriad of stimuli, and the more deeply we understand those stimuli the more likely we are going to able to behave in positive ways, i.e. from love rather than fear. All of us who have dieted know how far principle can go. We can have the best intentions in the world, but unless we learn WHY we eat inappropriately, we end up back with the potato chips and chocolate cake. People must be taught how to lead examined, introspective lives; to strive to know WHY they feel and do things, and then how their negatives can be turned into positives.

You people are so great!

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001

I've been thinking about this alot lately. It kinda goes back to a discussion Dan and I had a while back.

Emotion relates to the fire element but so does Spirit. For example if one performs an act while angry it could be said the act was performed in the spirit of anger. Or an act of charity in the spirit of compassion etc.

One description of God I've read that actually fits what earthmamma said is that God is a dispassionate energy gestalt. (the peace beyond understanding where we become a witness to life in addition to a detached participant) As a dispassionate energy gestalt IT is simply accepting(not judging) or blaming. Upon attaining Nirvana (full-blown enlightenment) it is referred to as the "blowing out" of the flame of passion. This too lends credibility to the dispassionate God idea.

I suspect most of us are somewhere between full blown enlightenment and its opposite, therefore subject to the promptings of emotion. I think emotions are conditioned responses tho and therefore suspect as action initiators on the one hand and malleable (reconditionable) on the other. Isn't that part of what the spiritual quest is about? To learn to discern the wise from the foolish, the loving from the fearful?

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

John, my first reaction to your latest post was to think about the consequences of getting rid of the "devils", but then remembering how necessary they are in being able to recognize the "angels." That's how I reference the pushes and pulls of emotions in my life.

As a human, I live by navigating and trying to balance between these polarities (although it's more like being contained within a circle rather than being strung along a linear configuration.) I know that enlightenment is said to be the absence of emotion, but to me it sounds like being discorporated. This humanity is all I have right now!

I guess it's that journey thing again...it's the *movement* toward the enlightenment, huh? Not just attaining it. Otherwise, our lifetime would be meaningless. Why bother with having a lifetime in the first place?

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

I think that emotions are no different than the "clouds" of thoughts. They just happen. The problem is not the thoughts or the emotions, it is that we think we have to tell ourselves something about them. "good" thoughts or "good" emotions or "bad" thoughts or "bad" emotions??? To me enlightenment would be the absence of the "committee" in my being that tries to figure everything out instead of just being in the moment. IMHO

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Diane..you just said a mouthful..for me. Beyond judgement = acceptance = the peace that passeth all understanding. We all have heard over and over again that we shouldn't judge others but lately, I find that applying that to myself brings me to a very good place. The emotional labels are just opinions, programming I picked up somewhere along the line. As I note them and let them go they do evaporate and become less and less a factor in my life. Attention = energy = reality. There is no need to berate myself , vow to do better, set my goals higher, seek enlightenment, (that's a recent one) or anything else. As I trust that inner guide which has been there all along I find there is nothing to learn, just let it be. Life evolves in a rather miraculous way if we just get out of the way. Maybe we have already attained 'it' and just don't know it. It has been said that 'God don't make no junk'. Earthmama, tailgaters, ha , had to laugh at that one. they drive me up the wall too, but I'm t t t trying. Sheepish, the devils and angels thing. How to know the difference? I have noticed over the years that some former devils have turned out to be angels and vice versa. So I find it's safer to not take my labels too seriously. Enlightenment, now there's another word one might find in a can of worms, nevertheless....I think life still might be worth living. It might mean life without the pendulum swings. We humans do seem addicted to drama but perhaps when we are experiencing those upswings we have a habit of forgetting those universal laws such as for every up there is a down. My life goes to the exremes much less than in years gone by but I am gaining in maturity. ha, a nice way of saying I'm gettin older, but it isn't half bad. You all take care jz

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

A while back I read that the human brain adds to itself but never subtracts. It never gets rid of anything. As a matter of fact We still have the original Reptillian brain. As it evolved it only added new layers. The point is we cannot get rid of any emotions. Seems everyone thinks they can be better if they can get rid of anger or the other negetive emotions. The trick is to completely allow yourself to feel but not re-act. If we re-act from emotion that makes us like a juke box. Punch in B-4 and get the same ole song and dance! The change in humans or evolution will come when we act from virtues not emotion....Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Well maybe a brain changes with a frontal lobotomy??? Hmmmmmm

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001