Someone on the Getting to know you thread said they'd be more interested in the philosophical end of what makes us tick so I'll start.

As mentioned in that thread I guess I consider myself to be a closet Christian as I generally don't want someone to think they've got me pegged if I ID myself as a Christian. I've got pagan leanings with a profound respect for the ancient wisdom of the Hindus, Buddhists. I'll take my truths where I find them and there's alot of them around if we keep an open mind.

I'm generally a pretty tolerant person and try to live by just a few simple rules.

Live and let live. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. If it harm no other, Do what thou wilt.

I'm not qualified to tell others how to live and won't unless its to protect my right to make my own decisions regardless of how misguided others might think they are. The rabid right Fundy types really push my buttons as they cross that line and I cease being so tolerant. I believe in the basic goodness of humanity despite alot of evidence to the contrary.

It really saddens me to see how split we are as a race(human) because so many insist on their way or the highway when all we really have to do is realize we're all in this together and all face the same existential trials. Only the superficial views appear different but many don't seem to be able to get past that.

I'm not especially well educated (HS) but like to think I'm somewhat knowledgeable about comparative religion as it pertains to the mystical.

I guess the Homesteading idea/l for me seems more "real" than alot of other lifestyles because its so elemental, dealing with the seasons, life-death, growing things and the marvelous/mysterious interconnectedness of everything.

I enjoy the challenge of assembling bio-loops here, where one thing is supportive of another, combining into numerous interlocking circles.

Enuf from me for now. john

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

Answers

John: I believe in the mystery. Anyone or religion who claims to have it right I run from. As a context I try to hold on to the thought that the universe is turning out just as it should and I being a part of it am also okay. Carl Sagen said that we are made up of the same element as the stars so we come from the stars. As for religion its way to limiting for me. I love a mystery not a story....Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

Oh gosh! Just read what I posted and I hope I don't come off self- rightious. I want to get off on the right foot here so I'm sorry if I upset religous folk!....Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

Hi Kirk,

You are too nice to offend most people, and certainly you didn't offend me.

One of the problems with organized religions these days, is that they don't publicize their "mysteries" much. Oh, there's the Easter Passion (which still totally mystifies *me*...I don't think I'll ever really get it...if faith was ever required, this is where! I *do* have faith, though! Anyway, Eastertide is probably the only time anyone references anything mysterious much anymore, at least as far as Christianity.

Christianity and Judaism (I don't know too much about Islam or other "big" religions) is packed full of mystery...mystics were their founders. Unfortunately, in our age and culture, we pretty much have received the homogenized "don't say anything too weird or they won't show up on Sunday" kind of theology.

No wonder people don't go to church anymore (except for certain people who feel better about not having to think for themselves or contemplate anymore! But I don't want to get on that subject too much. It should be obvious from our experiences from the board we just left...) I personally feel that it's much more challenging to have to think/feel/experience the Spirit all the time! And I have a lot of questions because of it! God likes me to have questions...it's how we keep up a running dialog...

To me, Christianity is the rich stuff, handed down to us, mixed up in our collective unconsciousness in the Western world, spirited out in incredible art, literature, architecture, and love for one another. It has had a terrible track record, mostly b/c it's so powerful that it can't help but get mixed up with politics. Too bad about that again, I have to admit.

Anyway, I know that many folks think Christians are either nice people who keep their lawn mowed and give to the food bank, but are really kind of boring (losers) or else they are rabid prosylitizing (where's my spell-checker!) morons. Actually, there's some really cool folks out there who are neither.

My philosophy is that God speaks to us individually in individual ways that we are able to understand. There are developmental layers to our ability to understand and a journey to undertake if we are to get anywhere at all. We chose (important concept) our way to journey. Some of us hear God calling us the same way he called our ancestors. Some hear God calling us differently. I cannot tell if your call is truly valid any more than you can tell if mine is. The best we can do is try to communicate I guess. Collectively, we may more likely be on the same page than not. However, there's weird stuff out there in the universe so be careful. It's easy to get tripped up (or out!)

I guess that's a bunch of my philosophy. I also think humor is terribly important, and I guess respect for our fellow critters, including humans, is also. I also think learning various knots, growing a garden, and serving one's community are too. Well, actually, I don't know much about knots...

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

P.S. (Kirk, now it's my turn to apologize!) I hope this isn't too close to violating the ground rules for posting to this forum. If so, I sincerely apologize. I think it's okay though, as long as people don't get the impression that I'm doing anything like prosylitizing (which I still can't spell...) or witnessing or whatever. But if it's too off-topic, anyone please advise. I have plenty of other folk that I can discuss this stuff with, off-forum, so no need to alienate others here, okay?

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

No Kirk, you didn't offend me. I think I understand where you're coming from and Sheepish, I didn't get the impression of Prosthlytizing(sp??)

I sometimes question my own take on the fundies because here we're simply sharing where each of us are coming from, no flames and no attempts to "convert" another. The operative word there I think is sharing. I don't get the sharing feeling when I'm reading chapter and verse.

Personally I think we're each defined in the universe as much by our ignorance as we are by our knowledge and understanding but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

I posted this analogy a long time ago on CS during one of the early religious debates and maybe its appropriate to post it here because it seems appropriate. Its a variation of the Hindu elephant parable.

Imagine 4 people were told to describe a house. Each person was standing on a different side of the house. One person sez, the house has one window and a door, another sez, two windows--no doors, the third sez the house has two windows, a greenhouse and a door and the fourth sees only one small window.

Who's right----who's wrong? I'd have to say they're all right---but only partly and they're all wrong. Its not until they compare notes that a more accurate picture of the house comes into view and even then its still incomplete. So it goes with answers to the big questions I think. We each have at least a little light to share, based on our own unique perspective.

I recall discussing spiritual stuff with a self professed athiest some time back. He was articulate, sensitive and knowledgeable and I found it really interesting that alot of what he believed fit in with a particular school of Buddhism.

It also occurs to me that when we read a bible or just about any scripture our understanding will be limited by the sincerity of the questioning mind. It seems really doubtful that any one person is gonna get it all "right" due to preconcieved notions of whats correct and whats not. Why else would there be over 2000 Christian denominations?

Whether we're a part of a group of similarly believing people or singular, we all walk the road alone in the final analysis and have to make peace with that existential fact. And since its inevitable that we'll each have a particular take on things it seems wise to accept that fact in our construction of a workable life philosophy.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

Sheepish: You probably use the word God like I use the term Universe. I trust the Universe, you trust in God. Same maybe? The truth is its really hard to discuss these topics when the words get in the way. John nailed it with his analogy of seeing the same thing from different angles. Anyway I hope we can discuss these type of things in a civil manor because I have a bunch of questions and I really love hearing what people have to say...Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

Kirk, yes, but the operative part of Christian is indeed "Christ." Christianity does involve believing in Christ. Very important. However, it is important to try to understand what Jesus believed in, as well. And therein lies the rub, sometimes. Is what we read indeed what He wanted us to know? Is what got published pretty much how it all went down? Or were there some spins on the events? (Much easier to accept the inerrancy of the Bible. Then you don't have to ask all the #()$(*# questions!!! I just can't believe that God gave me a questioning mind and then expects me not to use it, though. Hmmm. or...Perhaps it's all sin of pride.... See, it gets really complicated!)

I'm not an expert! Just on the journey...If this is getting too religious, please maybe just the folks who want to discuss this, email me privately. I don't want to preach, just to share my perspective.

'Nite all...

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

I sometimes question my own take on the fundies because here we're simply sharing where each of us are coming from, no flames and no attempts to "convert" another. The operative word there I think is sharing. I don't get the sharing feeling when I'm reading chapter and verse.

Sheepish,

I think John nailed it. What I've seen so far in this thread is discussion, not preaching. So, as far as I'm concerned, it's not violating the rules of the forum.

I have no problems with discussing religion or spirituality on this forum. I even created a spirituality category.

I don't have anything to add to the discussion right now (it's 12:35 am on Sunday morning) but I'm hopeful that the thread will still be going on Monday when I'll have a chance to get back to the forum and contribute.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

This thread is great, discussion of the paths that are being followed, not that one path is the only path. I so agree with John's analogy, looking at the same end from different view points. For as long as I can remember I have felt that there are so many different paths to the same end. How can so many different thinking people possibly believe in the same path. My husband and I have vastly different beliefs and we get along alot better since he quit beating me over the head with his bible. Have we ever gotten into some loud conversations. He believes in God and I believe in God, he feels like Jesue Christ is the one true path and I do not, that's his path, I have mine, we are ultimately singular at the end, but I like to think we will meet somewhere in the middle. I also like to believe there is something after, it gives me comfort, if there isn't, well then I just won't even know at that point. I try to be a good and decent person, mostly successful, but afterall I am human, so I do fail and when I realize it I am truely sorry. Have a great day, the sun is shinning, it's getting on to the mid 80's and darn, I cut that grass last Sunday and it needs it again.

Blessings, Judy

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

I believe there are lessons hidden in the essence of most religions but they seem to get lost as they travel by way of the human mouth. The basic, non dogmatic teachings of buddhism ( as I see them ) feel as if they point in the right direction for me. A recent book I read by Charlotte Joko Beck 'Nothing Special' really spoke to me in that it points out we have nothing to learn, no where to go. The answers are all within. It is our task to let go of all the crap we have accumulated and return to the bliss that is our nature. Our pain comes from the 'attachment' to the idea that things should be other than they are. While we are wishing for things to be this way or that way, or dwelling on the past, we are missing out on this incredible gift we have of the here and now. We spend so much effort trying to avoid future pain (just in case) that we overlook the sunrises, the sunsets, birthing, and death too. I seem to care less about the quantity of life and strive to enjoy the quality. If today be my last day, what a ride it's been. Thanks to all have shared their concepts of what is. When it doesn't contain that 'exclusive truth' attitude my mind is happy in the sharing. peace jz

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

The following are parts of my life philosophy that I try to live. Sometimes I succeed in living them, sometimes I don’t: A) Begin again, wherever I am. If I’ve just fallen on my face or had a great triumph, I need to begin again. B) Remember that I am going to make mistakes and that is part of being human. C) Cut my neighbor some slack because she/he is a human too. D) Laugh as much as I can. D) Cry as much as I need to. E) Ask for help when I need it. Allowing someone to help me honors them and helps me. F) Work is way overrated. G) Publicly praise the good things I see. H) Speak truth to power. I) Never ever lie. J) Prepare to receive God’s messages and then sit in expectant waiting for them.

Regarding God… God is real, unknowable, big, all-powerful, everlasting, loving, frustrating. God reaches individuals in different ways. God has a sense of humor, many names, and has been direct with me. No single religion has the corner on God. Many churches have pushed people away from God and this really ticks me off. I’m a Quaker. If this post is outside the bounds acceptable to this board, let me know and I’ll tone down future posts.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

Sheepish: I have this idea that I call the incidental Christian concept. It goes something like this.

I suspect when one has arrived at the spiritual place of Jesus, Buddha and others, "religion" ceases to be and spirituality is. As such it is a universal experience and by universal I mean it's a common destination arrived at thru many different paths that happen to include many common factors. The writings and teachings of mystics thruout history all point to common truths we all share, regardless of our time in history and our place in geography. Likewise, similar core values are shared by them all.

To me this points to a universal life ethic, things that are as true today as they were 2000 yrs ago, and the way we, with our individual and collective psyche relate to those truths is pretty much the same also.

We share this common reality we call life on Earth, yet each of us experience it differently---something I would consider to be an existential fact of life.

Yet when we step on the path, regardless of what we chose to call it we'll encounter the same trials, develop the same character traits and most likely hold the same things dear and reject the same other- things.

An example: As truth seekers I think we'd have to agree that step one to learning something is to admit we don't know, which neccesitates ditching preconcieved notions that may get in the way of learning something new. This is the same as its always been as far as I can tell---thus when the bible(Jesus) or the Gita or numerous other scriptures tell us to be humble they point the way to becoming a better student of life.

Similarly, when we're advised to be kind, generous, selfless etc by the vast majority of the worlds mystics, they are asking us to participate in the survival of the greater universe.

All of these things represent, to me anyway, the SPIRIT of Christ and I suspect anyone who participates in this universal spirit, regardless of what they may chose to call it, become an incidental Christian---just another term for universal citizen.

I think I understand where you're coming from when you say believing in Christ is necessary to be a Christian but if I'm correct in the poorly worded explanation above wouldn't a participant of and a believer in the universal life ethic be a "Christian" by default.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

John, you are a deep thinker! Let me respond by asking you another question. Is a Christian to *follow* Jesus or to *accept* Jesus? If to follow, then the universal viewpoint may work, if one considers Jesus to be another of the great teachers, sages, healers, etc. However, if a Christian is to *accept* Jesus, s/he commits herself to acknowledge his Deity, and to say that He is the Son of God. (Now the question of what that means is also an interesting one and I won't start on it here/now.)

The problem with being a thinking person is that it's quite easy to get caught in the betweens of those two concepts! That's where the faith part comes in. That's why Christianity has always been argued and always will be. That's why any faith will always be argued and always will be. Short of proving that the prophets came out of tunnels on Mars and visited the Earth or something, we won't "know" until we potentially discorporate, and even then who knows? Can't prove faith. It just "is."

So for me, I acknowledge other faiths and respect them. I can learn so much from them. But bottom line, there's still that acceptance thing.

As a thinking person, though, I have to ponder whether God would want to manifest Himself as an Aramaic-speaking Jewish carpenter and have him teach the gospel in say, New Guinea. The people there 2000 years ago would not have been able to understand a word that he said (although he could have wowed 'em with his healing.) If God is loving and smart, it could be argued that he would send a messenger who would speak the indigenous language in a cultural presentation that would be meaningful for the recipients. Therefore, I wonder if God has many messengers. And there goes the faith requirement again. Why isn't Buddha as valid as Jesus? etc.

I mess with this stuff daily. I really do. I don't mind, as I think my relationship with God is pretty dynamic. I like being engaged.

I am not God's representative of Christianity. Maybe I sound more like a heretic. These are just my opinions today on my journey. Don't try this at home. ;-)

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

There you go again Sheepish-talking about my mind!!! I often wonder what that makes me, I take it to God daily and ask him to change my mind if I am thinking wrong. I think we have to trust, that's the bottom line. Over the years I have met so many wonderful people from such a variety of faiths that I have a hard time believing that the loving God I know would condemn them to hell for following a different leader. Does that make me a heretic?? Peace and blessings- oh, and thanks for the support. I have really been way down this weekend and you all cheered me up.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Chris... F) is a hard one for me but i'm making progress. Maybe I'm just getting old. Hard to reconcile being a homesteader and working less. John your post was right on from my perception. Words are a pretty feeble way to represent a concept at times. It's easy for me to believe different words represent the same concept so why not religions. I just finished a beautiful book on a comparison of christian and buddhist scripture and it amazes me how they mimic one another in what I think are universal truths. Yesterday we went to a zen meditation at a christian church. On the wall was a poster quoting , I think, St Francis of Assisi. 'Preach the gospel to all the world...and if necessary...use words. I was taught that to be christian was to be christlike. Let ones' life be the message, words be the last resort. I have been fortunate enough to meet a few people of different faiths and I needed to hear no words to know they were connected to ........ This christian church where we did the meditation has been having a representative of different faiths give talks over the last several weeks. Islam, Native American, Buddhism, Juddaism....all the isms. I thought what a great way to promote understanding and help erase all the lines we as humans tend to draw between 'us' and ' them'. Take Care

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Hi John, I was the one who said I was interested in peoples philosophies of life. Religion is only one part of it for many of us, but religion can be the greater part of the philosophy of others. I'm most interested in how people come to their philosophies. Such as what has been the journey that brought you to where you are at in your philosophy of life.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

You guys are great! This is a discussion!

Sheepish, you say "Is a Christian to *follow* Jesus or to *accept* Jesus? If to follow, then the universal viewpoint may work, if one considers Jesus to be another of the great teachers, sages, healers, etc. However, if a Christian is to *accept* Jesus, s/he commits herself to acknowledge his Deity, and to say that He is the Son of God. (Now the question of what that means is also an interesting one and I won't start on it here/now.)"

Wow, good question. Here's my take on it. We read the bible and the bible sez this or that. No doubt the speaker, Jesus, had something very specific in mind when he said this and that, but 2000yrs later I suspect something gets lost in the translation. But, desiring to be faithful and to "follow" Christ WE conclude this is what He means when he said this and we follow what WE believe he meant. I think its necessary to acknowledge that WE may not have it right without doubting for a second that HE did have it right. In the Gita Krishna sez something like "In whatever way you worship me, in that way I will respond." With that in mind perhaps WE create GOD in our image--- not intentionally but almost by default.

As far as accepting Jesus, no argument here except the same caveat mentioned above. I have no problem at all acknowledging HIS diety, except to say that I also believe an important part of his message is to show us the way to accept and express our own. More later---gotta go.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Well here goes!! I would have to place my life philosophy as well rounded at the very least.(sort of) Having been an early product of a modest Presbyterian/Baptist upbringing, and having grew up nextdoor to the Baptist manse I was disillusioned and disappointed with what I saw early on, although I harbor no ill will for Christianity other than intolerance.As I've aged I've read with regularity on philosophy and religion both East and West, and including Native American teachings have found tenets that are pervasive throughout, including the original doctrines of Christianity. Essentially "do unto others,,,," etc.. Personally have settled towards a very natural spirituality following many learned Native practices and thought patterns regarding the world at large.Thusly have never been able to understand the intolerance of so many for so many others. As I've written on CS boards before , one need not feel vilified or endangered by anothers spirituality, quite to the contrary one should feel at peace by it. As a spiritual person is indeed a spiritual person and therefore has taken the first important step towards being at peace with themselves, which is of course the first important step towards being at peace with others. My wife and I share the belief in the concept of living lightly on old Mother Earth, living practically in impractical times , teaching strength and conviction by example, and understanding that we are but one relatively significant life form, no more or less important to the "bigger picture"than any other, therefore acknowledging that we have a responsibility as caretakers . My wife was raised a "Quasi-Catholic " for lack of a better term but finds her inner peace through Native American and Buddhist teachings, and neither of us are direct supporters of any organized group as the God I believe in was never short on cash, pun intended but certainly not to offend. Bless you all in all that you do that is good.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Back again---Sheepish, to continue, you also say that we are to accept Jesus as THE son of God. The operative word there is THE son. To me that seems pretty exclusive when there are other things in the bible that suggest the Universal Spirit thing. Such as "I am the root and offspring of David" and "Before Abraham was, I am" each suggesting he was plugged into something that certainly predated His physical self as well as history and even time as we know it---a universal spirit would be my guess.

On the other hand, when the Buddha became enlightened he said "I alone am the honored one" also seeming to suggest an exclusive aspect to the whole thing. I think it goes back to the idea that our respective paths, while they may share many things in common, are ours exclusively in the sense that we alone walk them and no one else can do it for us.

I'm certain tho, based on my own sporadic experience, that the spirit I speak of IS and that it does indeed guide us, with or without our knowledge or intentional cooperation even, sometimes without our asking and it doesn't even necessarily require our acknowledgement. Some may call it our higher selves, others may call it the ancestors, others spirit guides etc. In its pure sense, I believe, it is the same thing as the Spirit of Christ, or Christos or any of a whole bunch of other names.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Dan, I love your sign off and jz, yer right with the world as far as I'm concerned.

Deb; How my path has led me to where I am could be a long story, some of it stranger than fiction. I don't wanna hog the thread or post a long story here but the short version is during my spiritual meanderings and searching I've come to rely on what makes sense to me.

Self sufficiency makes sense to me as does being mindful of the environment. Simply loving others also makes sense to me as I think its the essence of the universal spirit I refer to. In fact, rather than fear and all the bogus stuff that comes with it, I believe love is the ultimate survival strategy.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Hi all. Hey Dan, nice writing. Actually everyone on this forum seems to be able to express himself/herself very well. How refreshing!

I'm SO late for work this a.m. but I wanted to clarify that it was not *I* who stated that one must believe that Jesus was THE Son of God, but rather that it's a big "should" in Christianity.

That is not to say that Christians don't sometimes struggle with the exlusivity of this idea, even though we are taught to do so....

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2001

(speaking of clarity in writing....no coffee in me yet...)

Let me clarify that we are *not* taught to struggle with the concept! We are taught the exclusivity. Sheesh. Gotta run.

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2001

John you have just touched on yet another of what I refer to as the "universal tenets": Love. As one reads any of the worlds major and sometimes less than major religions and pays attention to their original precepts they all ,without fail, contain specific guidelines for love of not only fellow man , but all the life forms we share Mother Earth with. This love and respect has for us made our "environmentalism" , for lack of a better term, the next logical step in a process.It in turn is a humbling way of thinking, and the more humble one is , the easier it becomes to love.The great circle of life in yet another form eh?!?!

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2001

Dan: Yup, thats the whole magilla in a nutshell---love. I recall a quote from "The Voice of The Silence" translated by Helena Blavatsky. It sez "Compassion is not part of the law. It IS the law."

Several years ago I stumbled onto something that I personally think is quite significant as it does provide a key to help interpret the bible. At the risk of sounding like a psycho-ceramic(crack pot) here goes.

We're taught that God is love and also that God is life. If that is so then perhaps we could view the physical universe as the physical body of God.

The ancient eastern spiritual traditions, the hermetic traditions, the kabbalists and others said the world(universe-life) consists of four elements. These four elements are Earth, water, fire, and air. These have an expanded definition of solids, liquids, energy, gasses.

When I was studying this stuff pretty intensely I reasoned that if the above is true, as it was a widely accepted concept back in ancient days then perhaps the elements of creation had a greater, more spiritual connotation as well as the obvious physical meaning. Back when the scriptures were written they were very fond of using symbols to convey multilayered truths. For example there are numerous references to the elements in the bible as well as many other scriptures.

Here's what I learned.

Earth=wisdom Water=faith Fire=passion Air=grace

Even today we say a person gave a firey(passionate) speech or has a firey personality. I've often heard Mother Earth referred to as Wise. When a person is baptised into the Faith they are baptised in Water.

Air is symbolized in the Hindu and Buddhist tradition by a six pointed star. The Hindus call it the seal of Vishnu. In the kabbala the kabbalists call it the star of David or the seal of Solomon. I'm sure you're familiar it. An equilateral triangle pointed down and another, juxtaposed and superimposed, pointed up---symbolizing, imo, as above, so below---representing equinimity and balance---grace.

Interesting---no?

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Wow!!! I've really enjoyed reading all this - and I learned a few things too -

I have always enjoyed reading the Bible, myself - I believe that there is a lot of real wisdom in its teachings. I can't claim to understand most of it, but I never figured I ever would. I've also studied a lot of other religions. It took a long time for me to find a comfortable home in myself.

Lots of people I knew growing up thought that I was just taking bits and pieces of all the religions I looked into, and put them together in a sort of hodge-podge mess. To a certain extent... that is what paganism is today... but only because pagans have decided to divide themselves the way the Christians have done.

I can only be me... So, I guess that even though I've called myself a witch for some 10 plus years, I'm just a plain old pagan.....

I liked the comment about it being sad that humanity is so divided... I believe that, too. It is a shame that Christians have to be so careful about what they say - and the same for anyone else. I read today in the paper about a family who practiced their Christian beliefs in hiding for fear of being put to death in Korea... No matter what your religion.... THAT is wrong.

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

John, yet another good point. The four basic elements are tied to the developement of birth clans with most Native American Sects I have read on, as well are touched upon in a somewhat "lesser" degree in the Buddhist sects. Both of these , at least presumedly, predating Christianity. One by at least several centuries, the other by perhaps thousands of years. "Mother Earth" and "Father Sky" I think sums up the importance placed on these two , and fire and water were only slightly less recognized as two of the four elemental birth clans.Proving the point only further that the fundamental precepts are far too similiar for me to shun similarities between us all for the sake of finding differences.

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Dan: I'm not real up on native american beliefs so I can't comment on that but as far as Buddhism is concerned I think there's more emphasis or information on the elemental take on things within the tantric tradition and before that by the Hindu yogins---especially practitioners of Kundalini or Laya-yoga. Then there's the astrologers, dating way back to the Egyptians and early vedic culture as well as the kabbalists and the Zoroastrians.

I couldn't agree more with your comment about recognizing the similarities rather than emphasising the differences. If the mainstream religions would pay more attention to that rather than nit picking their way into exclusiveness the world would be a much better place. To me its much more interesting than the differences because it tends to unite rather than divide and enables us to find common roots, especially when you take into account the irrefutable idea that interpretation, which is largely responsible for the differences, is very subjective, and perhaps more prone to error.

And Sue, I agree with all you said too, with one small exception. People should be able to express their religious views freely without having to do battle, Christians and even conservative fundamentalists Christians included, however it seems that when an attempt was made to discuss these things at CS it would always degenerate into a brawl because of the percieved attitude of the fundies of my way or the highway. I spose I shouldn't get fired up over it but for a while it seemed to me that the forum was being hijacked by them and political correctness took a dramatic turn to the "right".

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Hi John,

All is not right on the right! I'm sure several of you are familiar with the Christian Homesteaders Forum that formed as a splinter group that broke away from CS. You might remember a post from Lesley who left a very innocent invitation for people to join their forum. Unfortunately for her, she included the phrase "Catholics and Mormons" as Christians who frequent their website. WOW! Did she ever get taken to task by her own people!

I don't want this post to sound like gossip, but just let me conclude by saying TAKE HEART! Don't feel left out! No matter what your religious, political or sexual orientation may be. Someone, somewhere is convinced that you are a blithering idiot :)

(:raig

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

Never thought to post any of this before for some reason, so here are a few selected readings for anyone who may have an interest in Native wisdom. Don't let this title scare you off, "God is Red" by Vine Deloria Jr. is an absolutely masterful look into native views on religion as a whole, including Christianity. It should be a must read for almost anyone. "Earth Medicine" by Kenneth Meadows is an intriguing look at the use of the Medicine wheel , it even includes comparisons with Runic , the I ching, etc etc.. And thirdly I would recommend any of the Black Elk series, of which there are several now, these offer an insiders view of ceremonials etc. that are quite interesting and not without a little "flack" from some of his own people, which to me lends credibility to it all. Anyway happy reading if your so inclined, and see another day of health and beauty.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

Dan, thanks for the book list. I look forward to a good read!

Craig! Whoopee! You're here!

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001