I read about the 'Zionist' churches in Southern Africa- a movement started int he 1800's. Some in this, or a related movement practiced 'Jordan baptism,' which is baptism in a river. Some groups practice 'Triune baptism' which involves dipping three times, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

My suspicion is that triple dipping was perhaps a reaction to Oneness teaching, a rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity.

But I got to thinking about it. The Eastern Orthodox chruch historically immersed people for baptism. But I've read they immerse three times, once for each name.

Where does our lean-back-one-dip-baptism method come from? My guess is that it dates back to some immersion anabaptist groupa few centuries ago. The Eastern Orthodox are into holding on to traditional practices (though i don't believe all their traditions date back to the apostles- icons, for example.) Could it be that triple dipping is an older method of baptism?

I would like to see an EO baptism to see if they have the person lean back.

I've heard some say that they thought the baptism candidates knelt down to be baptized in the first century, rather than leaning back. This would make the baptizer's job a lot easier. I heard a story about a preacher who baptized an enormously fat woman. The story goes that the preacher was not able to lift up the woman. She grasped for something to pull herself up, pulled on a curtain. She tore the curtain down. Behind the curtain, a newly baptized man was changing clothes. There he was, standing in front of the congregation naked. I heard that he sued (an unChristian thing to do as per I Cor. 6.)

Here in Indonesia, I was thinking about how baptisms could be carried out in a house church situation in Indonesia so that the method of baptism could be easily reduplicated in a growing house church movement.

Indonesians bathe by dipping out of water resovoirs in their bathrooms. If someone has a really big resovoir, it might be big enough to baptize someone provided the person knelt. The baptizer could stand outside of the water as well.

I don't think many people would hant to be baptized in an outdoor water source in this area. The ocean looks black for a few miles around this city. I wouldn't want to touch the water. The canals are blacks with plastic wrappers and other garbage on top. The bath resovoirs sound like a possibility for baptisms, especially out in areas where there are not a lot of churches, and the environment is bad.

Any comments on methods of immersion?

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Answers

Link

If you could just find a building big enough for your congregation to meet in, with a resovoir ........... Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Are you smiling?

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Hi Faris,

The point is to think of a way for house churches to baptize new believers without having to resort to the slower church planting method which requires building or renting a church building. In areas where the population is 99% Muslim where there is little Christian witness, church buildings have tendancy to catch fire and get burned down.

I talked to a Christian Church missionary here. They ahve some house churches. He is also interested in mutual participation in church meetings. Maybe I can ask him where they baptize.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Link,

What about portable baptistries? Joe Garman offers them for Churches with prison ministries, but it sounds like this would be a viable option for you. Of course that depends on your water resources, but even if water is in short supply you could easily create some kind of cover to help store the water for multiple uses.

Just a thought.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Scott,

Thanks. Do you have contact information. I might be interested in a portable baptistry someday. Is it made from a big frame- kind of like a cot, with a waterproof plastic material that foldsup like cloth?

As far as Indonesia is concerned, though, I don't think importing baptistries is a good idea. The people don't have the money. A bar of soap over hear can be 5 or 10 cents because of cheap labor. Some people make $30 a month. Anything made overseas is expensive, and it isn't something that is 'reproducible.' If a church grows and divides into two churches, and you have only one baptistry, that might not be two big of a problem, but after thsoe churches grow and split, you ahve a problem.

I'm kind of interested in discussing the possibility of different methods of immersion. I dont' think we have any particular Biblical reason to immerse by having someone lean back, right? Leaning back isn't an option in the bathroom resovoir. In big ones, kneeling is an option, with the baptizer on the outside of the tank.

The first time I saw the 'bak mandi' as they call it, I couldn't quite figure it out. They build this big resovoir and int the nice houses there is tile onthe inside of it. In my house, there is plastic on the inside. The first time I saw one, I didn't know if I was supposed to get inside- with water up to my waist, or what. I figured out I had to use the dipper to splashwater on myself to bathe. I didn't know the name of the resovoir, so I called it the 'mosquito pit.' (They can bread some pretty dangerous mosquitoes if your not careful. Trust me, denge fever is no fun.)

This 'mosquito bit' or 'bak mandi' is something many Indonesias are already familiar with. They are already all over Indonesia, and the water is clean enough to bathe in. Turn on the spigot, and let the water run over, and you can even baptize iun running water like the Didache suggests as a preference. :)

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Joe Garman American Rehabilitation Ministries PO Box 1490 Joplin, MO 64802 USA Phone: 417-781-9100

I've not yet found a web site. My guess is that they have one, I'm just not finding it.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

What does it matter which direction a person faces when they are immersed? The object is to bury them into the death of Christ. Different cultures bury different ways. If, where you're at, they bury the dead face down, then baptize a person face first. If, as in the US, people are buried face up, then baptize face up.

As someone once said, "Baptism is a symbol of what actually happens at baptism." I.e.' When a person is baptized, they are dead to sin, buried and risen as a new creation. Baptism not only symbolizes death, burial and resurrection, but it actually is what takes place.

If there is a culture that buries people standing on their head, then baptize them while holding onto their ankles. Whatever it takes to get the message across.

Some of what you say really, at least to me, seems like your straining at gnats.

Take that for what it's worth.

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

Scott,

I don't think I'm swallowing camels on this. Btw, I don't think Jesus was rebuking them for straining unkosher gnats from their wine, but rather for metaphorically eating the big unkosher animal, and also straining out the small ones.

I don't think we are obligated to baptize people the same way they are buried, though that does make for something they can relate it too. Baptism is also related to washing, and Americans have tradtiionally bathed laying down or leaning back in a tub. (Though showers are also popular now, too.) Indonesians bathe standing up. Hmm.

If you baptize like you bury, then what would you do with those who cremate and sprinkle the ashes? :)

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

Boil 'em!

};o)

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

Not a good idea .... there are already too many hard-boiled Christians running around. ;-)

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

HHHHEEEEEYYYYYY!!!!!!!! Mr. Batman,

Good to hear from you.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

And I never said you'd boil 'em for 3 minutes.

Link, the point is to get the point across. Baptism is immersion - that's all. Which direction or what position is not important. Jesus said to make disciples, baptizing them. He did not give a list of positions that are acceptable and not acceptable. Just do it. (That's a catchy phrase - I may patent it before some company decides to use it).

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

From what I understand, early baptisms were done in "living" (flowing) water, as Link mentioned earlier. Perhaps we should have baptisms in a jacuzzi?

Actually, it might be kind of cool to have one of those electric waterfalls behind the baptismal ...

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001