Were they from God?

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

Answers

Jews from Alexandria Egypt.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

Alexandria was south west of Nazareth. How could the wise men have been from there?

The typical response i've heard to this question is that these men were Persian. When the Persians conquered Babylon, they were terribly pagan. Then, some generations after the Jews, a 'prophet' won the ear of the king. His name was Zooraster. He believed in a system of religion which was either monotheistic or dualistic. The 'Wise Lord' was thought to have created the 'Evil Lord' (or whatever the name of this entity is in their belief system.) Zooraster also believed in various levels of angels. Zoorastrianism became an established religion in Persia.

Has anyone read _Eternity in Their Hearts_ by Don Richardson? This book talks about how certain missionaries came across cultures whose hearts had been prepared for the Gospel either through aspects of their own culture, their mythologies, or prophecies made by shaman. One culture in Burma in the 1800's believed that a God named Yawa had created man and woman in a garden, but that man had sinned, and now their people were in bondage, waiting for God to do something to contact them. If I remember correctly, this was the same people group that had 'prophets' and one of these prophets had prophesied of a white man who would tell them about the way of Yawa. A prophet from the people group, (if I have the right group in mind) sent some disciples to follow a horse, which would take them to this long awaited white man. The horse came to a well. The men followed. Out of the well popped a big white man, a Christian worker, and son of a missionary. this man had grown up in Bhurma and spoke the languge of one of the people groups there. I hope I haven't mixed up the stories. I may have. Anyway, it's a good book.

In the Bible, God spoke to Balaam, who usually resorted to sorcery and divination. He gave pagan kings like Pharoah and Nebucadnezzar dreams. He may have even communicated to Neko, king of Egypt as well. Josiah didn't listen to what Neko had to say, went out to meet him in battle, and died. Some of these kings were steeped in pagan beliefs, but God would give some light or some revelation to them.

_Eternity in Their Hearts_ contains many stories about how God prepares pagan cultures for the Gospel. I've also heard many rumors and stories about Muslims who converted to Christ after receiving dreams. I hear that, among Jews who convert, many of them have been prepared through such dreams or visions as well.

I don't have a quote of the prophecy, but there was some prophecy about a star in the east rising in Zoorastrianism, and a king being born. Some have suggested that the 'wise men from the east' followed the star because of that prophecy. Perhaps these were Zoorastrian wise men who came to visit Jesus because of something that God used to prepare their hearts.

Btw, _Eternity in their Hearts_ is worth taking a look at, if for nothing else, than for the explanation of the account of THE UNKNOWN GOD in Acts. The history behind that is very interesting. According to the story, a pagan wise man had had the idolaterous Athenians make three monument to the unknown God, who was not to be represented to an idol. A sacrifice was made to the unknown God, and afterwards, the famine or plague or whatever the problem the Athenians were trying to solve ended. Richardson uses these historical and Biblical stories as a starting point for presenting how other cultures had been similarly prepared for the Gospel.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2001

Actually, the Magi were a priestly group in Media when Media controlled the kingdom of Persia. The son of the Persian king, Cyrus, was held hostage in Media, insuring that the Persians would be peaceful. With the help of a conspiracy by the Magi, Cyrus escaped, went back to Persia, organized an army and returned to defeat Media. Thereafter, Cyrus collected information on the religions of all the people he conquered and returned them to their homelands. Apparently, the Magi were the scholars of the world's known religions up until the time of the birth of Christ.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2001

Personally, I like to believe (though I have no direct evidence) that at least one of the magi came from China. For written within the chinese ideographic alphabet itself (which came about hundreds of years before Christ) is the story of redemption and creation, something modern linguists are only now beginning to discover. They also had the teachings of the Tao, which postulated the idea that there were such things as absolute truths (they were light years ahead of modern Americans!), and Confuscius had already written about the Wang, the expected Savior-King.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

I'll say it before and I'll say it again....Jews from Alexandria Egypt.

Check it out....during the time of Christ there were more Jews living in Alexandria Egypt than there were in Palestine.....(thus we have the the LXX...Septuagint...since Alexandria was considered the "learning center of the world").

The LXX....Jewish Scriptures....translated into Greek....from the learning center of the world...Alexandria Egypt...also the center of Greek learning and philosophy.

But....if you to think they were China men...so be it. Maybe those Afro-American nativity sets are right too. Maybe they were the "Three brothers!!" Yo!!.....and when they saw Joseph they said..."Sup?"

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

The Word says that they were wise men from the EAST, not the SOUTHWEST. That rules out the Alexandria theory (unless they circumnavigated the globe to get to Jerusalem ...).

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

Actually John....it is not a theory...it has been presented and documented by many scholars in the past as fitting the historical context of the times.

Second....what does "from the east" mean?? You assume it means a direction.

Even today we refer to people in Palestine as being "near Eastern" or "Middle Eastern" decent. It has nothing to do with direction.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

Oh...and being "near eastern" or "middle eastern" certainly doesn't make them from China.

But....like I said....believe what you want.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

The key word in that sentence is "WE". WE think of that region as the East, or Middle East, because it is Eastward of the United States. For us, the appelation is simply a matter of geographical perspective; just as China is considered FAR East. But certainly people in the region have not historically thought of themselves as being in the "East", nor would they think of Egypt as being "East" of them. I'm sorry, but that is just plain silly.

Oh ... and the text doesn't say they were "near Eastern" or "middle Eastern"; you're reading into the text something that isn't there. It says they were "from the East. Which could very well include China.

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

I'm not sure where they came from..........................but wasn't their names Larry, Moe, & Curly ?????.......;~)

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

Weren't they the "Magi" -- men who wore dark robes, rode horses, and battled the mummy and the scorpian kings sand demons ... oh, wait a minute ... those were the dudes in the Mummy movies ... sorry!

:)

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

Oh, and remember, there were definitely 3 wise men... after all there were 3 gifts... there could not be more or less than 3:)

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

Brother Ware:

I want to say amen and amen to your following words:

“Actually, the Magi were a priestly group in Media when Media controlled the kingdom of Persia. The son of the Persian king, Cyrus, was held hostage in Media, insuring that the Persians would be peaceful. With the help of a conspiracy by the Magi, Cyrus escaped, went back to Persia, organized an army and returned to defeat Media. Thereafter, Cyrus collected information on the religions of all the people he conquered and returned them to their homelands. Apparently, the Magi were the scholars of the world's known religions up until the time of the birth of Christ.”

This is indeed the only answer given thus far that even remotely approaches the realm of being sensible and it is the only one, besides brother Danny’s response that seems to show any respect for the word of God. All of the other responses are so far removed from the actual facts that no one with even a casual acquaintance with the scriptures and the history leading up to the events which are described in Matthew 2:1-12 would give them any serious attention. Much speculation will often arise when men are not respectful of God’s silence. And there is indeed a very large difference between speculation and logical reasoning.

Brethren and friends, we are simply told in the scriptures, “there came wise men from the east” concerning where they came from and nothing more. If God had seen fit for us to know the exact location from which they originated he would have made that information abundantly clear for all of us to see. Anything that we say about this matter can never be more than “conjecture”. But there is a respectful way to discuss any of our speculations about the word of God, if we feel strongly such an urge, driven by curiosity, to attempt to get a more accurate picture in our minds of how these events occurred. WE must always try to reason from the information available to us and arrive logically at or near the information that was not given to us.

And I agree with Brother Ware that there is a strong, if not a necessary inference, from the word “magi” to deduce that these men must have been from the area around Persia or Media. For the word rendered "wise men" is more correctly "Magi," a term which designates an order of priests and philosophers which belonged originally to Persia and Media, and who were extensively distributed over the region of the Euphrates. Those described in the book of Daniel as wise men, astrologers and magicians, belonged to this order. We can only conjecture where these "wise men" came from, but the probability is that they journeyed from the valley of the Euphrates.

But, while the above is our preferred conjecture on this matter we must not overlook the fact that there were two regions noted for having such men as were found in the court of Nebuchadnezzar. Egypt was another such place and while I find it hard to imagine that men coming from Egypt would be described as wise men from the east there is no doubt that such learned men would be found there and Brother Danny’s speculation is not far fetched. But it is the use of the word “magi” that points us logically in the direction of the valley of the Euphrates where the Persians and Medes were known to have a class of men with just such a title.

But the other speculations about “Zoraster” and “China” are indeed outlandish almost to the point of absurdity.

These Magi, from even before and especially during the days of Daniel, belonged to the learned class and were advisers to Kings. It is possible that they were of such a reputation that their appearance itself caused quite a stir in Jerusalem and such that Herod was willing to give them audience. It is quite possible that they were knowledgeable about the Jewish scriptures and in particular the prophecies concerning Christ including but not limited to Daniel’s prophecy of the “seventy weeks” which was given to him by the Angel Gabriel, who we incidentally mention, announced the very birth of Christ. And they could have very likely been aware of the prophecy of Balaam concerning “a star out of Jacob” (Numbers24: 17).

And some speculate, with no good reason whatsoever, that there were only three of these wise men. I am surprised that such persons have not surmised that it was “shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego” incarnate since they were definitely “magi from the east”! Just because there were three gifts mentioned is no justification for assuming that there were only three wise men. The scriptures do not say how many there were. There could have been only three but there may have been more. We just do not know because God has not told us.

And it is indeed interesting to note the great interest men often have concerning what God has not told us, especially when men are woefully ignorant of what HE HAS TOLD US. I have a recommendation. If we must enter into these speculations let us wait until we know all of what God has revealed to us which he clearly intends for us to know and understand. (Eph. 5:18). Then, which I can assure you would be quite some time, we might be safe in entertaining these useless speculations.

Brethren, would it not be indeed better to avoid these useless speculations and genuinely seek to understand the things that God has given for us to know? WE have no need to understand neither “where in the east” these wise men came from nor even who they were. WE need only know that they came because they, along with much of the world, were expecting a “King to be born”. It is the one born and WHERE HE WAS FROM that is the focus of the word of God in these passages.

Therefore we need to notice how the world gathered around this lowly child as angels, and even nature in the form of a miraculous star came to where this young child was born. And we need to know that there were miracles attending this birth. And we need to know that wise men, kings and even Angels paid attention to this one that was born in Bethlehem of Judea. And from that day to this the world has taken notice of this one single, though humble birth, of the one who is now and forevermore the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And no one can ignore Him and the time is yet to come when every knee shall bow before him and every tongue shall confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father. (Phil. 2:5-11). That is the message that we rightly are expected to know and understand and preach to this lost and dying world. We have no time to be wasting on endless and worthless speculations.

Brethren, these useless speculations might also be considered harmless except for the simple fact that they are designed by Satan to cause men to be “ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”. For such cause men to miss the larger message, which God intended them to see, hear, understand and obey.

Beware of these vain speculations and men who bring them to us, Brethren.

And those of you who have used such speculations as an opportunity to use the word of God as a platform for your idle jesting should be ashamed of your pathetic lack of respect For God, His son, the Holy Spirit and the inspired word delivered to us from Him! It is indeed pathetically shameful and those “jokers” among us should learn that we should all stand before God in awe and be careful of how we handle His precious word.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

Mark: Larry, Moe and Curley were the three wise GUYS. ;)

And then of course there were Manny, Moe and Jack: the three best friends your car ever had ...

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

Lee,

You made the following statement, "And some speculate, with no good reason whatsoever, that there were only three of these wise men. I am surprised that such persons have not surmised that it was “shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego” incarnate since they were definitely “magi from the east”! Just because there were three gifts mentioned is no justification for assuming that there were only three wise men. The scriptures do not say how many there were. There could have been only three but there may have been more. We just do not know because God has not told us."

If that statement was directed toward me and my comments... you missed the point! It was a joke or sarcasm to point out just what you said... we don't know there were 3 wise men because scripture doesn't say... yet most people "assume" there were 3 because of the gifts and tradition, not the Word!

Might I also add that we must "assume" that the wise men were at the stable where Jesus was born because that is what the Christmas plays show... even if scripture indicated that they showed up to 2 years latter at Jesus' house:)

Lighten up Lee... I am not mocking the Word of God!

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

Lee,

I agree with Marc......lighten up a little. You know no one has a higher regard for God's Word than I do. It was the speculation that was being jested.

The Wise men are a Scriptural Unknown........Their existence was real - but that is all the Bible says and ANYTHING else is mere speculation. So why argue about it?

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

Brother Marc:

You have said:

“If that statement was directed toward me and my comments... you missed the point! It was a joke or sarcasm to point out just what you said... we don't know there were 3 wise men because scripture doesn't say... yet most people "assume" there were 3 because of the gifts and tradition, not the Word!”

That statement to which you referred was not direct toward you, Brother Marc. That statement was directed toward the exact same target at which you were firing. We understood correctly that your remarks were a sarcastic attack upon a legitimate target. Therefore we took it upon ourselves to attack the same target in a more serious tone. And as you admit yourself by saying that your remarks were a “joke or sarcasm” which was designed, and I might add very accurate to point out the exact same thing that we said. Thus, we are in complete agreement with you and we both attacked the same target but you were so close to our attack that it appeared to you that you were the victim of “friendly fire”. When in fact you were not the intended target nor were you the unintended target. The target that was struck was the false notion that there were only three wise men. WE apologize for getting so close to you in our attack but it is certain from your own words that you did not even get a piece of shrapnel thrown your way.

And then you say:

“Might I also add that we must "assume" that the wise men were at the stable where Jesus was born because that is what the Christmas plays show... even if scripture indicated that they showed up to 2 years latter at Jesus' house:)”

To this we say AMEN and we are pleased that you point out those facts.

Then you say:

“Lighten up Lee... I am not mocking the Word of God!”

WE never said that YOU were mocking the word of God. Again, we agreed with your sarcastic condemnation of the speculation that their were only three wise men when the word of God said no such thing.

It is not likely that we will “lighten up” by any means. But we are not bearing down upon you in the least for we never said nor have we ever thought that you were “mocking the word of God” by your comments. WE were instead referring to those who talk of the wise men spoken of in the scriptures as if they were “Larry, Moe, and Curley”. And other such sarcastic remarks that are were using facts revealed to us by the Holy Spirit in the inspired word of God as the very basis of a foolish jest. Such jesting is condemned in the word of God and we will not “lighten up” on our condemnation of it. And we care not who agrees or disagrees with our condemnation of such behavior. Because the word of God condemns it we condemn it as well and we will not be a bit “lighter” on this matter than is the word of God. For jesting is found in an ominous list of sins that are to be avoided. For Paul said by inspiration, ““But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph. 5:4). Notice the list of sins among which we find “jesting”. And the Greek term which is translated “jesting” is a “well-turned, i.e. ready at repartee, jocose” utterance. “1) pleasantry, humour, facetiousness” And in a bad sense it means, “scurrility, ribaldry, low jesting”. Our English word “Jesting” means “an utterance (as a jeer or quip) intended to be taken as mockery or humor. And it also has reference to its use in a Low sense as “a ludicrous circumstance or incident” And it also refers to frivolity, “a frivolous mood or manner b : gaiety and merriment”. And the scripture quoted above also condemns “foolish talking” which is a translation of the word “morologia {mo-rol-og-ee'-ah} which is the exact equivalent to our words “foolish talking”. WE are to “measure our words and to have our “speech always with grace”. For we are told, “Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.” (Col. 4:6). And our speech must always be “sound” for we are told, “Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.” (Titus 2:8). And this “foolish talking” and using the word of God as a basis of jesting” is not “sound speech that cannot be condemned”. Rather it is “foolish talking” that is clearly condemned by the very word of God.

While it is without doubt that the term in Eph. 5:4 is talking about jesting in a bad sense of low jesting in which there is some accuteness. The line between the bad sense and the milder forms is not often easily distinguished and the Christian is wise to avoid the very “appearance of evil”. But when the word of God becomes the basis of such jesting it is very low indeed in respect to God and His word, which is never to be made the basis of a jest. And using the word of God as the very basis of such “foolish talking and jesting” is inexcusable among those who love Christ our Lord and have reverence and fear of God and respect for His inspired words which are designed to leas us to life eternal. The word of God was not written for our “entertainment” and is not to be used as the neither the basis nor the brunt of any “joke”.

And I am sure that it is likely that our Brethren who are given to such “joking” have no intent to be disrespectful. But most of the jokes, especially those that use the very inspired word of God as the basis for a joke are very irreverent toward God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Not to mention the simple fact that most of the one’s that we have read that have been written in this forum is ashamedly tasteless. The word of God is not designed to entertain us but rather to inform us of the way to eternal life in Christ our Lord. We have no tolerance for such jesting and will condemn it at every opportunity.

And let us not forget the warning of our Lord Jesus Christ concerning “idle words”. He said, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matt. 12:34-37).

And the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to say, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.” (Eph. 4:29). And these idle jest, which use the very word of God as a basis for the jest is “corrupt communication” and it most certainly is not “good to use in edifying” and most certainly does not “minister grace unto the hearers”.

Brethren:

Remember the words of the inspired apostle Peter who said, “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:” (1 Peter 3:15).

WE are not saying that no Christian can find things in life naturally funny or humorous and that we cannot enjoy laughter and light moments. But we strongly object to the use of the word of God in frivolity as the basis or even the brunt of jokes or foolish talking and jesting. When our minds turn toward the word of God we should turn toward the seriousness of the “scheme of redemption” and be about the business of “seeking and saving that, which was lost”. There is no place in the preaching of the gospel of Christ for “jesting”, frivolity, foolish talking and idle meaningless words which show a lack of due respect for God and His inspired word. God sent his son into this sordid world to redeem us from our sins. He did not send him into this world to provide a means of frivolous and foolish entertainment for those who believe in him. And the Holy Spirit did not “once for all deliver the faith” so that we could use the inspired words which he delivered to us as a basis of idle and foolish jokes. Such behavior is out of place among those who Love Christ our Lord and we will ever condemn it. WE only pray that those who are given to “foolish talking and jesting” will heed the warning. If you are not one of these then the condemnation does not apply to you and we sincerely pray that you will never become such a one.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

Brother Mark:

You have said:

“Lee, I agree with Marc......lighten up a little.”

We appreciate why you want us to “lighten up a little” but we are not likely to do so when men are using the word of God as the basis of jokes. WE are convinced that such is wrong and we are seriously offended by such behavior. Is it not possible that you guys could “lighten up” on you heavy frivolity when discussing the meaning and teaching of the word of God?

Then you say:

“ You know no one has a higher regard for God's Word than I do.”

Indeed I do know that there is no one that has more respect for the word of God than you do. For this reason it grieves me to see you speak in such a way as to appear to have less respect for God’s word than I know that you actually have. For I have seen you show great diligence in teaching the word of God and standing for that which is right. But, your Joke, while actually directed at the foolish speculations concerning the word of God, was based upon the facts taught in the word of God concerning the wise men who came pay homage to Jesus when he was born. And that occasion was not an occasion of “frivolity” and idle talk. It was the most important birth that has ever occurred on this earth. It is not good material for any preacher of the gospel who should be preaching but would rather, instead, be a comedian.

Then you say:

“ It was the speculation that was being jested.”

Indeed the “speculation” received the “brunt” of your “jest” but the word of God was the “basis of the jest. God’s word is not to be used in this way.

Then you say:

“The Wise men are a Scriptural Unknown........Their existence was real - but that is all the Bible says and ANYTHING else is mere speculation. So why argue about it?”

Indeed we agree with you about this. And we would not argue about speculations in general. And we are not arguing about these speculations other than to express our contempt for them. For they are designed to cause our attention to be diverted from the facts. It is not who and where the wise men were from that is the point of the facts recorded in the word of God but rather who was the child that was born and where HE was from that is the point. And those who are given to such speculations are obscuring this point.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001