Questions? Thoughts? Opinions (about the parents/car/college melodrama triangle)?

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

Answers

If you want your freedom from your parents so badly, don't take anything from them. Give them back the car. If they are supporting you in any way, they have a say in what you do. If you're so grown up and mature, pay for your own car. Pay for your own education. But stop torturing them.

If you don't have health insurance and you get into an accident, or you get a disease, or you get sick--who's going to bail you out? Your friends? Or your parents? It is entirely possible that after two weeks in the hospital, you can wipe out their savings. Just think about that...ask yourself, "Why are they so concerned that I have insurance?" If you're an adult, you need to think and act like one.

To me, your cries that you just don't want to deal with school for four years, and that if you're forced to you'll just waste it anyway, are completely immature. You're a smart girl, Katie. Why are you such a slacker? What are your goals in life? What do you want to do? Where do you want to be in five years, in ten years? Sharing an apartment with four people? Or doing a job you love as a happy, independent adult? Do you think you'll meet those goals if you continue to avoid school like it's some kind of conspiracy against you? You're making, what, $8 an hour? And you think you can do better than that with no education? It's not going to happen.

Is your life's dream really to be a flight attendant? If so, that's great. I'm not saying anyone has to go to college, or that there aren't jobs out there that require more than a high school degree. I just can't see you, the "bibliophile" wanting one of them.

It makes me sad that you have absolutely no inclination to see things from your parents' point of view. All they want is to give you an education so that you have a chance at a happy, fulfilling life. So they pick on you and rag on you...it's what parents do. They probably wouldn't be half as crazy if you were making smart, adult decisions. If you had a plan. If you had a goal.

It just seems funny to see you gripe so much that your parents treat you like a child when that's really all you are.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

I wasn't saying, "If they make me go for four years, I'm going to fuck around on purpose." And nobody's talking about avoiding school, but I don't like being told I *have* to go for four years when I'd rather go for two and get a real job that much sooner. And the fact that they're using a car to have control over me is just completely fucked up.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

As for the part about goals, my mother asked me the same thing, if I had any. I do. The problem is that I don't have any goals that THEY approve of. They would rather me say, "Okay, I'm going to screw around school for four years," rather than me say, "Okay. I'm going to get my associate's in ______ and do _____ and ________." So it's not that I don't have goals. I just don't have the goals THEY think I SHOULD have. Well, excuse me.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

Caroline,

You ask her what her goals are, what she wants to do with her life, where she wants to be in ten years... isn't it possible that she doesn't know? Hell, I'm 23, and I don't know what I'm going to do next week, let alone ten years down the road. It is a gift of whatever kind of providence you may believe in that Katie has the insight to know that any attempt to educate her in a formal environment is futile right now, and that her time is better spent paying off the electric bill (due next week, btw) then trying to remember what year Napolean seized control of France.

Is she immature? Hell, our whole damn GENERATION is immature. That's how we've been raised. Christ, I must be a real fucking loser. I have a year of schooling left to get a Bachelor's, and I ain't NEVER going back to get it. Degrees are nice, BUT OPTIONAL, parts of one's career repetoire.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

You're right, Katie, your parents shouldn't try and use the car to get you to do anything. But fighting and hating them like you do isn't very mature either. And no, no one should be in school if they don't want to be there. But all I'm saying is that if you're going to try to get a job and get started on your life, stop using their car. Any money you take from them entitles them to at least think that they can tell you what to do.

Also, the whole "our whole generation was raised to be this way" is a cop out. I'm in your generation, I know plenty of people who have no direction, and it's their own fault. Take responsibility for yourself. If you're a slacker, don't blame it on how your were raised.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

It's not a copout, I'm HAPPY I have no direction. I don't WANT to know what my plans are. That's so... boring.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

go ahead, screw up your life katie...break off all contact with your family, live in an apartment with four other people...work at menial jobs the rest of your life.....go for it, if that's what you want. i sure don't envy you. and eric, having plans and dreams and a future is not boring. it's exciting.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

She didn't said she wanted to work menial jobs the rest of her life.. she said she wanted to get on a career track, by being a flight attendant or getting an associate's degree or whatever.. that's a better goal then so many people in our age group have, which is to see how long they can mooch off the 'rents in the basement before they have to pay rent.

I myself don't really have a direction either. And why SHOULD I? I'm 18.. I shouldn't be thinking about my life at 70. I could be dead tomorrow. Life is all about taking it as it comes, and doing what YOU feel is right. I'm going into college next year, but I have no major. I'm so clueless as to what I want to "be".. And I know I, for one, am sick of everyone expecting me to know. I know a 50 year old man who now is deciding his current career choice is simply not working out, and he is going on a sabbatical to find out what he wants. He's considering going to graduate school, or doing other activities. Is he immature? I don't think so.

And Eric only mentioned "plans" being boring, not "dreams" and a "future" being boring. Plans ARE boring.. "I'm going to get my bachelor's in ____, then get a job at ____, for $___ an hour, meet my future spouse who will have ____ eyes and ____ hair and make $___ an hour, and we will have 2.5 kids and a house with a white picket fence and a station wagon." Ho hum. Those are plans. Dreams are something different. It is no kind of dream to aspire to a white picket fence. That's no future, either. It's my dream that I simply be happy doing something I love, even if it means I am somehow falling under the category of "slacker". A "future" does not necessarily require me to have a cubicle job making so and so much money. A future does not require me to get a college degree. Perhaps your kind of future does.. a boring, stuffy, predictable future. But not *mine*.

I'll be perfectly happy if I never graduate college. I'd be happy if I didn't graduate high school. That means nothing to me. What's it mean in this short time we have here? Nothing. Nothing at allll..

This is probably the longest post I've made on this board.. forgive me if I make no sense, or spell a word wrong or something.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

Ok, Hi, you dont know me, I dont believe I've ever posted on here before, but I've been reading Katie's journal for a long time, anyways, thats not the point.

Katie is 19 (in a couple days), how many 19 year olds, let alone 20- 15 year olds really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives? When most people are in college they go in with one major and leave with a different one. So maybe she doesnt know where she's going to be in 10 years or even in 5, that isnt uncommon at all, and it doesnt mean that she wont have a good job doing what she wants to do, it doesnt mean that she'll be sharing an apartment with 4 people.

It's funny, if you look at some of the most sucessful people in the country, you'll find that most of them dont have 8 years of college, or even four, some even dropped out of college only to go on to great things.

As far as her life dream being a flight attendent, I dont think thats such a bad choice, they get decent pay from what I know, they get to travel all over the place, most of the time I hear they get free tickets etc. and alot of the flight attendents that I've known, heard of, whatever, seem to be very happy with their jobs and wouldnt trade it for anything.

You, Caroline, said that all her parents want to do is see her get and education so she can be happy in the future with a good job, if they really wanted that for her they would listen to her, listen to the fact that she's saying she knows she cant focus on 4 years of college so she wants to go for 2 years and get an associates degree. That seems like a pretty adult decision to me, she knows her limits, she knows that she'd be wasting away the time there and wouldnt be any closer to getting a degree than she is now. I admire her for being able to know that about herself.

Katie seems like a very intelligent person and to me not knowing what she wants to do for the rest of her life at 19, doesnt make her immature at all. It makes her 19.

Oh, and I'm sure you never complained at all about anything your parents did to you. Everyone does it, people that are 40 years old are as bad as teenagers. I dont remember what song it was, but there's a lyric that goes like this "Dont feel guilty if you dont know what you want to do with your life, the most interesting people I know didnt know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still dont"

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

Just to say that in my above post it should be "how many 19 year olds, let alone 20- 25 year olds really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives? "

Not 20-15. Should remember to proof-read things.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

The song was "Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen)."

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2001

I agree with Caroline. Katie, there's nothing wrong with not being sure what you want to do with your life, at any age.

But if you move away from home and basically ignore your parents' wishes (which, as a 19 year old, you are perfectly entitled to do), DON'T EXPECT THEM TO BUY YOU A FUCKING CAR. They are not using the car to "control" you. You signed an actual contract, for god's sake, and now you're trying to change the terms of the deal. That doesn't happen in the real world, and the real world is where adults live.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

it's called respect. respect for your parents. if you don't agree w/ them, that's fine, but don't shit all over them and accuse them of fucking you over, man.

and eric, the fact that you view planning in life as BORING makes it clear that you are an immature, go-nowhere kid. Wheeeee! that's fun! cute when you're 18, pathetic when you're 25.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

I didn't expect them to buy me anything. That was on them.

Had I known that the contract was going to end up giving me no choice in my own college career, I wouldn't have signed it. Also, as stated, the contract itself says nothing about my having to be in school for four years.

"It's called respect. respect for your parents. if you don't agree w/ them, that's fine, but don't shit all over them and accuse them of fucking you over, man."

You're right, it's called respect. Too bad they have no respect for me and my ability to have my own goals and live my own life. If they don't agree with me, that's fine, but maybe they shouldn't shit all over me.

Also, if you're going to talk like a badass, TRY USING YOUR NAME AND E-MAIL ADDRESS. Nobody gives a rat's ass what you think if you're too much of a wimp to say who you are.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

All this boils down to something real simple: Different people have different ways of living their life. Some think of plans as being boring. Some don't. Some want to go to school for four years. Some don't. Etc. and so forth. Nobody seems to be able to respect that, for some reason. I respect the fact that my parents have their view of how life should be, etc. But I don't agree with it, and they don't have to agree with my view. But don't use something like a car (that you claim you got to "help" somebody) to force somebody to do what you want them to do. That's just fucking bullshit, in my opinion.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

Alright, children. Back off.

Katie has balls. Cajones, if you will.

She has the balls to do things that MOST of us her age would never dare. Katie left home. She left school. She's pursuing the things that mean the most to her and living her life at the same time.

Katie BROKE OUT OF THE BOX.

If I thought for a minute that I wouldn't crumble if I threw up my parents' plans for me, I'd do it. But I don't think I'm that strong. But I'm pretty sure Katie is. She's been living an awesome existence since she took control of her own life. You can't tell me that you've never dreamed of making your OWN life instead of letting others, especially your folks, define it for you.

I give massive props to Katie for making the choices she's made and for accepting their consequences. I don't know whose posts you're reading, but I definitely haven't seen an immature whiny girl.

Besides, if Katie runs back to mommy and daddy, I'm pretty sure all you critics would be the first in line to call her weak. And then who would you live through vicariously?

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

My two cents:
Don't rely on the "there's always time to go back to school" deal...it's *really* easy to get caught up in the world of not-having-a-crap-job (be you a flight attendant or whatever) and never end up going back to school, but please try to consider that 4 years *seems* like a long time, looking at it from the beginning, but it truly flies by while you're doing it. I think you might be happiest if you went in with the plan of doing two years and *maybe* extending it to another two...see how you feel at the end of two years (or as you near it), there's no need to commit to a decision like that now. It's also harder to make no progress toward a degree in 4 years than you think...and taking classes is never "dicking around", because learning can really improve your life, overall; more than you might expect.

Also, as for a degree being optional: well, sure, it's technically optional, and you can get *a* job without one, but it often means that you will get the job instead of the applicant without the degree, or the difference between scrimping and a comfortable salary. Bachelor's degrees are really very good investments.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

I'm 28. I stopped going to college to get an associate degree and go to work. I also thought that I could go back later. I’m sure that I will go back. But it’s true that it’s very very hard to do now. I have car payments and rent and a daughter. Life becomes more complicated later. I fear that if I go back and then get a degree at 33 will I be considered to old to be entering my profession. I wonder if I’m going to be able to give up a very good paying job in order to go back to school. My point is that this issue for you isn’t as simple as “I can do it later.” Odds are you will not do it later. If that’s ok then do it.

I have a boss who said that his four years in college were the hardest most excruciating time of his life but he has ridden that degree for 20 years and never wanted for money since. He said that while it was hard, it was the best investment he had ever made. Maybe it’ll be easier if you think of it this way, 4 years is around 5% of your life. 5% to make the other 75% more bearable doesn’t sound to bad. I just hope that you don’t make this decision based on what your parents are doing.

One more opinion if you don’t mind. Try to remember that your parents are doing this out of love. Maybe they aren’t doing such a great job, but they love you. They fear for you. It is hard to understand when you don’t have children what you go through everyday when they leave your site. Don’t let them control you, but don’t hate them for doing it. I think it would be better if you just called them on it every time they tried. Remind them that you love them and that you know they love you but it’s time for them to give up the reins.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

i just wish i had parents who were able to send me to school and actually cared. Or parents to pay for my car, half or no half. I can say one thing for sure if i packed my shit up and headed to virgina i'd get a big fuck you, not anyone trying to give me an education so that i can make decent living or a car to drive, or insurance of any kind for that matter.

I guess when your really on your on, paying for everything with loans and a part time job that barely gets you by, you can look at these things and think of how nice it would all be.

But whatever makes you happy i guess. No one can force those things on you, you live and learn.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

The people my company has hired straight out of school are 22-25 years old and NOT immature. I'd like to dump on your generation and call you a bunch of slackers but you're no different from any other generation. I guess you're better armed than previous generations but that's it.

Here's another way to look at it. Four years of school is going to cost x dollars. They're effectively paying you x dollars to go to school. In five years if you want to go back to school, you're going to have to cough up those x dollars on your own. If you don't like your parents this is a great opportunity to stick it to them.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

i, myself, dropped out of school after three torturous years of school. I have about a year left until i finish my degree and i keep telling myself i will go back. and the truth is, i probably will. But someone in this thread mentioned the factthat it only gets harder. I always thought i'd go back, and i always thought it would be hard, but i never really considered what would make it so hard. What makes it hard is finding the time and opportunity to go back. I have rent to pay now, i have bills that do not afford me the time and energy to take off of work to sit in a classroom. I respect your knowing and admitting that you dont want to waste your time and parents money by dicking around in college with absolutely no direction...just understand that if you want a life that is a step above what you have right now, a step above minimum wage and limited vacation and benefits, you're going to have to struggle. Your parents are trying to save you from the hardship they have, no doubt, either endured or seen. They probably are trying to control you, but not just to be a complete couple of assholes. They are doing it because they care about you and are trying to steer you in the right direction.

Let me tell you a little story. Five years ago i went to school. I went to a school about 10 miles form where i grew up. i spent so many years trying to get away from my parents, from my old shitty friends, my old life. and i got about ten miles...because my parents wouldnt pay for me to go anywhere else. and i hated them for it. pecially my mother. i hated her controlling me and my life. i was 18, i was old enought to decide for myself. but i was too afraid to rely on myself. so i did what she wanted me to and i was uncredibly unhappy. my GPA plummeted to a 1.7 and after three years of mood swings, depression and various other issues, i left. i flew to japan with giving my parents a week's worth of notice, to live with a friend for two and a half months. I came back to the US with a new sense of direction and personal responsibility. My parents were angry i had left, they thought it was the most immature and plain stupid thing i had ever done. they thought i had ruined my life. i had never felt better, i was finally in control of my own life. for the first time EVER, i listened to what my gut was saying i needed. and what do you know, i was right and they were wrong.

it was about more than school and work and how much i will make in the future. the entire situation from start to finish is about choosing your path and sticking to it. it is about making a decision and following through from point a to point b...all the way to the end of the line and accepting responsibility for all the shit that comes with it. you take responsibility for the mistakes and shortcomings and you take credit for the victories. there is nothing better than knowing that, in the end, your decision was right, despite what everyone, including your parents said. and that feeling will stick with you forever. here i am, a few years later, and every day i wake up and thank god i was finally willing to step up and trust myself.

but i also wake up and realize that while i could be sleeping, because i wouldnt have class until 10, i am actually getting up at 6am, every day, because i have bills ot pay. i work very hard, harder than i ever have in my entire life. it's a trade off. i could have spent a few years finishing school, sleeping in, doing the work (because, let's admit it, the only REAL challenge in going to college is making the effort, not getting the grade)...but i wanted to stop wasting my time. i wanted to start making a life and taking responsibility. and i got what i wanted.

like i said, it IS a trade off. i have ultimate responsibility. i accept that i will never be the boss in my company. i accept that i will, at least for the next few years, have jobs where i get shit on by people with degrees who are on power trips. and hell, they have a degree which earns them more money...maybe they have a reason to feel more important than me. it doesnt make it right, but it is a reality i have to accept because it comes with the decision i made. along with that decision comes the reality that as much as i want my parents to take care of my bills and pay for my car and give me money when i am in the red, i dont have that luxury. they let me make a decision, they voiced their opinions, and they stuck by their guns and i stuck by mine. they wanted to prove me wrong, and they didn't. but they also wanted to spare me what i have right now...the anger i come home with when my boss tells me i will never be anything more than what i am now unless i get my degree. the defeat i feel when i come home empty handed from an interview because someone with a degree came along and snatched up what i thought was a sure thing.

no, i dont have a plan about where my life is going, i dont know what job i will have in ten years, i dont know if i will ever make more money than i do right now. some of these things i knew coming in...some things i didnt know. for the first time in two years i have health benefits. and even with the benefits i have to shell out at least a hundred bucks of my own money to pay for what they dont cover. the bills add up. i have health problems now because i waited so long to go to the doctor. but i couldnt go because i could never afford it. my health has suffered. this is something your parents are trying to save you from. i never cared before, it was never a concern because i was healthy, i felt healthy, but i really wasn't.

every day i thank god for the day i made the decision that changed my life. i thank god for the day i realized i was going to be able to make decisions on my own and deal with the consequences. but every day, after i thank god for that, i pray to god that i will be okay, that i wont lose my job and be stuck with nothing because i get paid too little to actually save anything. i pray to god that my life will be more than the small, albeit, happy existene i have now. i dont want to be rich or a megastar, i dont want anything more than the ability to care for myself and my family. but the truth is, every day i go to work and i work hard. we all do. but i work harder for less money than someone with a degree. thats a luxury i forfeited the day i left school. and one day, sure, i may go back...but it will take longer, and probably, cost more money. and as long as you're willing to face hardship and frustration and the insecurity of not knowing where you will be tomorrow or any other day, you'll probably be okay. but yeah, it would have, could have, maybe even should have been easier. your parents know that, they are only trying to help you, albeit not in the most constructive way, but the only way they know how. dont alienate them, you never know what may happen, forcing you to need them in the future. you cant be so independent that you forget where you came from, that you forget that they have greater and more varied experiences than you do. i blamed my mother for a long time after i left school, blamed her for my unhappiness in the past, for my inability to have decent grades when we all knew i was unhappy in school. take responsibility for all of you inabilities...for you inability to be in school and care...your inability to lead the life they have carved out for you. dont be afraid to say that you just cant do it. humility...use it. ADMIT YOU'RE YOUNG AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF MISTAKES TO MAKE. TELL THEM YOU WILL BE OKAY...AND THEN SHOW THEM THAT YOU WILL BE OKAY.

GIVE THEM THE CAR BACK AND SHOW THEM YOU CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT THEM...SHOW YOURSELF YOU CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT THEM. maybe then they will finally learn a lesson of their own, and they will grow and change with you. dont alienate them from that...make them see it...and maybe, just maybe, you will all come to an understanding...and a mututal respect. find a common ground...and work toward understanding.

if you are willing to work, you'll be okay. just remember that there is more to life than being right all the time, than always being the strong one. admit defeat and learn from it...and grow stronger from each new experience. you'll be happier for it...and your parents will respect you more. good luck

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

shit, that was long.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

"and eric, the fact that you view planning in life as BORING makes it clear that you are an immature, go-nowhere kid. Wheeeee! that's fun! cute when you're 18, pathetic when you're 25."

Actually, it is fun. I've got a job that I love, a job that I wouldn't mind spending the next 40 years doing. Granted, in two years I may decide that I want to quit. That's the freedom that comes without having A Plan For My Life.

"But Eric, if you want to advance in the company, you'll need a degree."

Who wants to advance? Not me, at least not right now. And when the time comes, I won't need the degree then, either. My old supervisor didn't have his degree, and they promoted him to another station. My station manager has no college experience at all.

Eric...just wasting his fucking life away...

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

i am currently in my second year pursuing two BAs in creative writing and in linguistics.

having said that, my dad tries to buy everything and, while i'm struggling toward financial independence, he cosigns and makes payments on my student loan. i intend to pay him back because i don't want him to think i owe him anything. but in truth, a gift is a gift. if the giver expects something in return, it's not a gift; it's a deal. my life isn't owned by my father because he pays for my education, and the minute he thinks he can own it because he pays for part of it is the minute i won't accept any more money from him. if he wants to own it, then he can wear my shoes and go through the daily routines and obstacles that i go through. that isn't to say that he doesn't have his own; in fact, it's an admission of that. he should stick to his own life instead of buying mine.

there will always be critics of katie's lifestyle, not least of all katie's parents. that doesn't mean she has the right to her own choices. my advice, katie, is to make your decisions as you will and let your parents make their own choices based on that. if you start behaving a certain way in anticipation of your parents' reactions, you've lost the war--not against your parents, but against yourself.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

i meant to say, "that doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to her own life choices." yikes.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Every human being on this earth is born with a tragedy, and it isn't original sin. He's born with the tragedy that he has to grow up. That he has to leave the nest, the security, and go out to do battle. He has to lose everything that is lovely and fight for a new loveliness of his own making, and it's a tragedy. A lot of people don't have the courage to do it. Helen Hayes, in Roy Newquist, Showcase, 1966

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

I'll add my two cents.

I'm another of this generation at age 23, having just FINISHED the four-year degree in English. I hated every second of my school life, but it was paid for by my grandpa who paid for all eight of his grandkids' education. It was an amazing gift, and though I HATED school and STILL hate school, I recognize that EVEN THOUGH I'm in a career (computer geek) that pays good money, there's a ceiling that I'll hit after a few years.

I don't have a goal in mind except being happy. I enjoy my job and the people I work with. But I do want to have a new TV and a sleigh bed from Pottery Barn and a Saturn with a sunroof, and I want to be able to go on a shopping spree at Borders bookstore every once in awhile without having to forgo hot water. Therefore, I gotta make more money than I'm doing now one day. And then I'd like to own a house someday (no picket fence, mind you) with a big backyard and maybe a large black Labrador. But I gotta pay for that with money I don't have now.

And in one month, I'm leaving Missouri (the place I've lived all my life) to move to Baltimore, MD, where I know no one and have only been twice. But my parents are fully supportive because I've been mature about everything, even school- the one thing I hated more than anything.

I am with the people who are saying that there are mature ways to go about things, and immature ways of going about things. I've mentioned before in this forum that college life/ dorm life is a good way to move away from your parents and get on your own. It teaches you things about other people, but mostly about yourself and how you deal with new things, other people, and your family.

You can do whatever you want in this big old world, but that doesn't mean that you won't endure backlash for it eventually. Maturity is a good thing now and eventually.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

What I want to know is why you're setting up a fund to have your readers donate money for your car payments. That's pretty tasteless.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Okay, well how about I put up a donation button saying, "I can't pay my web hosting bill because I'm broke?" Is that not tasteless? Because people do it alll the time.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

I've been reading your journal for a few years now, and I was really shocked at the level of maturity you are exhibiting right now. Four years at college IS difficult, but that's the point! There is some proof in a college degree that you can make decisions and stick to them. I can tell you right now that if you get an Associates, you will never be making enough money to live comfortably unless someone near and dear dies and leaves you with a substantial trust fund.

I am in a relatively similar situation. My father and I have a contract about my car, my allowance, everything. As long as I am in school, he pays for my car, insurance, anything I need. I even so much as think about dropping out, he takes it away. I believe it is a fair deal. Why should he pay for me to do ANYTHING when I can't even get through college?

Thousands of people every year go to college and hate it, but still make it through. A 2 year degree will not get you a job that you will enjoy and want to go to every day. If you want to do shit work your entire life, go for it. My mother got an Associates, my father got a Masters of Business Administartion. When they divorced, guess who had an easier time finding a job EVEN AFTER MOVING TO ENGLAND? My father. Education says a lot about a person. My mother still struggles, even though she is remarried (to someone who has an equivalent education). I can say this with all sincerity: my mother regrets each and every day that she decided to enter the work force rather than finish a 4 year degree.

You may not know me and probably don't care about what any of us have to say- but you shouldn't waste your intelligence because you 'hate the thought of four years.." Some schools only require 3. A lot of Lib Arts schools don't even have those nasty Gen Ed requirements that you hate. I'd look into a fast-track 3 year Bachelors before giving up completely!

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

I agree with Lyndsey's points...and if you hate general ed, your associate's degree will be just as miserable as a bachelor's, because it's basically pure GE, whereas with a BA, you could take a bunch of classes you really enjoy - a history degree will get you further than you might think! (An Associate's degree is really pretty useless when it comes to looking good for job interviews and such; it's really only slightly better than nothing at all, and it some ways looks worse.)

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Actually, with an associate's, you take only classes that have to do with your major.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Most schools require some art, math, history, etc. requirements. They aren't just going to shove you out into the world with no basic skills (which is basically what GEs are). Personally, I love Gen Eds- they give me the chance to take classes like Visual Arts and the Studio (what I'm in now) and Women's Studies (what I took last semester)...if I only did major requirements, I'd be taking 5 English literature classes a semester. Thanks to Gen Eds, I signed up for a Buisness Law class that I'm really interested in, an Economics class that has really helped me understand what is going on right now...Associates don't prepare you for the REAL real world. Jobs don't require just doing that job. Employers expect you to be a well- rounded individual with some level of intelligence in a wide variety of areas. Even as a flight attendant, you will have to talk to customers who work in many different areas. They will expect you to be able to understand what they are talking about, to some extent.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Actually, I don't know why I even decided to post. As with most people who ask for thoughts, you won't take what we have to say worth a grain of salt. This is natural. People don't like to admit they are wrong, or at least partially incorrect.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

I'm personally a strong advocate for getting a full education (I'm about to start my masters in business technologies this fall), but I don't look down upon people who feel college is not the right thing for them. As far as people saying that it is impossible to find a decent job without a bachelor's degree... i say to them that that line of thinking is total bullshit. I know lots of people who have higher paying jobs than I do who barely made it out of high school. It just takes a slight bit more creativity. I mean look at the riches nerd in the world, Bill Gates... that ugle SOB's net worth is like several billion dollars and he never finished college. So it *IS* possible to make it without a degree.

Personally, I think Ms. Trame should look into or start a web design business of her own cause, obviously, she knows how to put together a terrific website. A friend of mine started one and is making a decent amount right now.

On the issue of parental control... well, I don't nessacarily feel that Katie is in the wrong to feel used and toyed with. The car *IS* a way for her parents to control her, I mean lets be realistic here. I do like the suggestions made earily about how Katie should just give the car back and tell her parents that she can make it on her own. That truly is the only way that they'll start treating her like an adult.

That's my humble opinion on the subject...

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Bill Gates was also a student at Harvard (I believe) when he dropped out. He would have done well whether or not he had an education. In general, students that can get into schools like Harvard can do well with an education from Podunk U just as well as they can at Harvard..its a matter of natural genius. Nothing to do with education, and nothing to do with this topic, unless Katie has some ingenius solution to all the worlds problems.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

I am nearly 23 years of age, and my parents still employ the same tactics used by Katie's. They still supply me with $400 of rent per month, that I wouldn't need if I were to lead a less comfortable lifestyle. This is a trade-off, Katie, and you probably should realize that. As long as your parents have any sort of monetary control over you, they will believe (whether it should be the case or not) that they have a right to dictate some things in your life. When I was your age, I too, thought it was unjust and just slightly underhanded on their part. I still think that is the case. But I also realize now, that the only way to have complete freedom is to be monetarily free from them. IT IS THE ONLY WAY. Basically, you have a choice to make Katie. Can you afford to live completely of your own means, or do you need your parent's financial support? If you do indeed need the financial aide they supply, then its pretty much a given that along with that comes "advice". As for not finishing school, I would like to concur with the large majority of the posters in saying that it is EXTREMELY difficult to go back once you have stopped. I left NYU in the spring of 99 with only 2 classes left to complete for my BA in History. Just now, in the spring of 01 am I actually completing those courses, as I am now relying soley on my own resources to do so. I first had to save enough (which took two years for two classes, so you can imagine how long it would take someone to save and prioritize for two more YEARS of schooling). It is so difficult to get back to school once you have a job, bills, and other responsibilities. Likewise, my fiancee left school in the the fall of 96 with one year left to complete. He is now 27 years old, and still has not been back to finish his degree. I urge you to really consider the farther reaching implications of your decisions about academics and your parents. In my case, it has not been worth it to alienate them, as they are the only reason I'm able to go back now. That extra $400 is a life-saver, and they know it. Looking back would I have just stuck out those extra two classes and finished up when I could? You betcha. I'd now have a job paying 50,000 instead of 25,000. I'd be on my way to grad school. I wouldn't be so far behind my peers. Even if college is not your thing...you've said many a times in your journal that learning is. If you were to stick out the boring classes, I think you'd find that farther on down the line, you'd really be challenged by the higher level courses. I've also learned that no matter what anyone tells you, no matter that there might be 50 posts on this board telling you that it is not a good idea to quit school or to push away your parents, we will do what we choose, especially if you're young and inexperienced in the real world. But trust me Katie, it is no fun being bottom of the barrel, and unless you have an amazing knowledge of computer programming, or an untapped source of wealth, the odds are that you will always be in a mediocre job with a mediocre company, and 15 years from now you'll be kicking yourself for not listening to your parents. Sometimes they are wrong, but I've learned that more often, they are at least partially right.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

I'm only 19. My plans for the future change every day. I think I'm on the right track now, I hope so at least, but if I'm not, so what? I'm only 19! I don't have to have my plans set in stone. My dad wanted me to know where I wanted to go to college and what I wanted to major in when I was in 19th grade. My goals have changed since then...since I was a freshman in college, even. I came to school wanting to triple major in political science, environmental science, and genetic engineering. Seriously. I was quite prepared to do this. However, laziness got ahold of me, and environmental science (which was on another campus) was dropped. I realised I had no use for math anymore, and off went genetics. I kept poli sci, and in 2 years, I'm just a few credits short of graduating. I want to stay in school, though, so I'm adding another major.

As for parents.....mine are paying for college, but like to dance around that issue, threatening without threatening to take away the money if I don't do what they want. I, however, would join the Air Force ROTC in a second if they did that, which is, as my dad said, "the worst thing you {I} could do to me {him}." Hooray for conservative ex-hippies! Heh.

Sever the ties. It's fun!

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

I think Katie's parents and many of the people responding here are trying to tell her to do what they think is best for her. And I think in her parents case they're concerned about her future, but they don't realize how miserable they're making her present.

So maybe she might be making a mistake with her life.

So what. It's her life. Let her live it and make her own mistakes. She's 19, she's supposed to make mistakes. Good for her for knowing what she wants and doing something about it, rather than going along with what others tell her to do.

I think people regret more often the things they didn't do as opposed to doing what they wanted to do.

As for the car/money thing. As long as you accept financial help from your parents they are going to feel they have a say in your life, no matter how old you are/become. Just as whenever a friend or family member lends you money (or gives you a car which you have to pay back), they're going to want to have a say in what you do with it. It just happens.

And if you don't like it, then do something about it. Get a loan. Pay them off. Find a way to pay for your own schooling. Or just work if that's what you want to do. I'll be hard (which seems to be what people are trying to protect you from), but at least you'll be doing what you want for yourself.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

i agree with jennifer. your parents do not have the right to control your life, but they do have the right to request that their money be used in the way agreed. they also have the right to take it away if it isn't.

i'm surprised that people are actually suggesting that katie go to school even if she's miserable. school is about getting an education, not just about getting a job. anyone can do that, and the number of people who do without even a bachelor's degree is steadily growing. my personal goals include a master's and a PhD--they also include marriage, children, a life as a writer, and an academic career of language study. but katie's goals aren't like mine, and i think it's quite obvious that she is self-educated. she doesn't want to get married, she never did like school, and she's happy now.

my point? college isn't the natural answer for everyone. just because someone else was miserable in college but completed it anyway doesn't entitle them to predict katie's bleak future as a mediocre employee in a bleak grocery store. the truth is that katie is already an exception to the rule, at least academically. she could just as easily be happy and monetarily comfortable as the average college- graduating joe. and what college graduate would dare to admit it? all the former/current students bullying katie into getting her bachelor's degree not only accomplish nothing, but they underestimate her and they feel indignant. how dare there be an alternative to the misery i've had to go through for this piece of paper on my wall! but nobody should trudge through college just to reach the end. that's a ridiculous notion, not to mention that the whole point is missed.

if katie isn't happy at school, she shouldn't go. her life is not over before 20 if she decides not to go, and she needs to carve her own way. it sounds to me like katie just wants to live, really live, but the times have called for an exercise of craft above that of art. there's more to life than a damn job.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

I don't agree that katie seems happy the way she is now. Not to put words in her mouth, but she hasn't seemed "happy" for awhile. I miss the katie of yesterday, getting stuff done and looking forward to things and having hilarious thoughts while doing it.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

I wasn't going to post this but I just couldn't help it. It's a little off topic, sorry.

I have an associates degree and I make good money. If I had chosen to go into the field I got my degree in (drafting) I would have been making good money right out of school. I would never have gotten rich doing that but I would have always made a decent living. Not everybody needs to be rich.

An associates degree program is a concentrated concentration on one subject with VERY LITTLE general ed. Yes, they do spit you out with no basic skills.

That said, I regret getting an associates for two reasons. I didn’t really want to go into that field and the education was VERY poor. They rush you through their system and spit you out the other end with a piece of paper in your hand. I plan on returning to school to get a bachelors and then go on. I hope.

I have been involved in hiring a few times and I’ve learned this from bosses who hire all the time. An associates can be fine if it is in the field you are hiring for (i.e. a drafting degree for a drafting position). A bachelors does not have to be directly related to the position. A bachelors says things about you. Like someone said it indicates that you are willing to stick it out and endure hard times. It also indicates that you have been taught to think in a particular manner. This isn’t too say that a person without a degree is incapable of thinking in that manner. A bachelors is a quick way for a potential employer to know a lot about you. Obviously there are people without degrees who are brilliant and perfect employees and there are those with degrees that a morons. But imagine if you were a person hiring for a position and you get hundreds of resumes. You have to sort them out somehow and starting with the stack of people who have degrees is the safest bet.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

just a quick note... if Katie, or anyone for that matter, doesn't want to go to school - more power to them. school is *hard*, it flat-out sucks. i would have dropped out by now except i've found a program and major i'm really happy with. if you can call ornamental horticulture a real major..shit, my parents are paying for me to play in the dirt. anyways, my brother was in her position. he took off of school for a couple of years. he worked different jobs, he even went to alaska for a summer to work in a fishery (sp?). then he went to ETSU and then to U of T for his masters. he met his wife at ETSU (which he wouldn't have done if he had gone straight to college after high school) and is the happiest he's ever been. what i'm trying to say..do what you think you need to do to be happy. i know people without college degrees that are perfectly happy with their lives. i know i don't need a six-figure salary to be content. and about the parents, all parents suck at one time or another. whose doesn't? way i see it, this is Katie's online diary and she has a right to vent her feelings. just because we're some sick voyeurs peeping into her world doesn't give us the right to give her hell for it. ok i'm done now.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

"Okay, well how about I put up a donation button saying, 'I can't pay my web hosting bill because I'm broke?' Is that not tasteless? Because people do it alll the time."

Erm, that'd probably be worse. Just because other people do it, does that suddenly make you cool?

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

First of all, I'd like to say that there are a lot of greedy people posting here. Money isn't everything people. Many of you seem to equate a 4-year education with getting a job that you love. While that might be true for you, it's not true for everybody. When I graduated from high school, I chose to get my Associate's degree at a technical school instead of getting a Bachelor's in Computer Science from the local university. When I graduated with that Associate's degree, I had more skills and a better education than I would have had coming out of the university with a 4-year degree. Plus, I had saved countless thousands of dollars by going for only 2 years. I was able to get a great job right out of school, making enough money to live comfortably, buy a new car, etc. It's true that my salary will not cap out as high as the salaries of those who got a Bachelor's degree, but I don't care about that. Like I said, money isn't everything.

If I ever did want to go back to school to get a Bachelor's degree, the company I am at (and most bigger companies will do this) will pay for my classes, and give me flexible working hours while I take those classes. This means that on top of having small student loans to pay back, I still have that option of going back to school for free, while making better money than I would get if working at a pizza shop or something while in college.

I agree that this route isn't for everybody, but I'm just sick of people badmouthing an Associate's degree. When you people are still paying off your student loans in 10, 15 years, my company will have paid mine off long ago. How's that for a good investment?

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2001

Amanda just said everything I was going to say.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2001

An associates degree in Comp Sci does not even compare to a four year degree in the same thing. I can guarantee you the companies that hire out of schools like Penn State would not hire students with Associates. Graduating from a 4-year school with a CSE degree requires math up to Calc with Vector Analysis (this is usually 4 levels above general calc., or in PSU's case, 3 courses in Calculus), 12 courses in CSE plus three supporting courses in related areas, two statistics courses, plus foreign language courses (which really helps for going into Comp Sci). That kind of background does not even compare to an Associates.

Four year colleges allow for students to do in-depth research, get to know world-renowned professors and lecturers, meet people they otherwise never would have met.

I'm not trying to be picky or point out that you have no education or something. I am sure you are well trained. However, an Associates does not prepare you in the way a 4-year degree does. And no, not all University grads will have debt up to their ears. If you go to the right school, you can get grants and other packages adding up to the worth of your education. My best friend is at Wake Forest on a full scholarship, and she had a 1200 SAT score. That's not outstanding. Anyone can go to college for free, you just have to look in the right places.

I happen to think this whole issue is up for some serious bifurcation, and that's not fair. I do believe that some people shouldn't go to a four-year school. I do NOT believe that people should give up on such a school because of pure laziness or to piss off their parents.

We can't use plurium interrogationum here...we can't just throw out answers and expect those to suffice. None probably will. Oh well. I suppose less people getting Bachelors and Masters degrees means less competition for me later.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2001

it was a good post until the bombast began, and then you had to throw in the last sentence.

there's a billboard in houston for some classy-man's alcoholic beverage that says, "we leave the rat race to the rats."

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001

"I can guarantee you the companies that hire out of schools like Penn State would not hire students with Associates."

Umm, no. You are wrong. My company hires many Penn State graduates. They also hired me, even though I "only" have an Associates. I started off on exactly the same level here as the Penn State grads. I am being promoted right along side those grads. All that calculus that they took? Not needed at all.

It doesn't matter what you are taught in school. As long as you have the basic knowledge of programming, you have what you need. Right now I'm working on a project which is being coded in a language developed by our clients. There's no way that language would have been taught in school, whether that school be Penn State or a small tech school. All that Bachelor's is good for is to wave around to get you into a place. After that, the company will teach you what you need to know. Companies now are finally realizing that people with Associates are graduating with those same basic skills so that they can be trained to do the job, just as those with Bachelors degrees are trained to do the job.

So good, you're networking at school. You're meeting all kinds of professors. Good for you. I'm here working, meeting engineers and directors, both in my company and in our client companies. These are people who can actually recommend me based on how I work, not on how much homework I turned in on time.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001

Many times in hiring processes, actually having a degree (any degree, the actual little piece of paper) indicates not that you completed a lot of homework or networked with professors or attended academic lectures, but that you actually started and completed something (a goal, per se) that was long-range in nature. They see that you went through all of the bullshit of the academic world and stuck with it long enough to get that stupid piece of paper. That's really the most important part to many who make hiring decisions. Even if two people take the same classes up to the last semester, and one drops out and the other doesn't, then the one who completes is going to get preference in hiring.

I have a four-year degree in English with no classes in compsci but I do have three years of computer working experience from while I was in said degree program. Now I'm moving into a starting salary of $40,000 in a computer networking area. When I was hired, they simply wanted proof that I had a degree. If I had a technical degree, I would have gotten more in the starting salary area, but the degree was the make it or break it line in terms of the actual hiring.

Enough on the Associate's versus Bachelor's argument, please? Unless you can provide real statistics about how one fares better than the other over a long-term period of time (say, 20 years), we can just leave it at personal preference and not continue to throw potshots at each other.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001

And, no, money isn't everything, of course. But money provides a way for you to put a roof over your head and food in your mouth both now and when you're 80 years old and packed away in a nursing home.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001

Katie,

I know exactly how you feel. My father bought me a car when I was 16 and ever since then he thought he had rights to my life. However, I am unlike you because I didn't rebel against him. I did everything he wanted me to and you know what happened? He pushed me to hard and I had a breakdown. So for all of you who think you should do exactly what you parents want, you're wrong. You should do what makes you happy and fulfill your dreams. I would try to talk to my parents about your feelings before I cut off contact with them. Either way I'm sure you will make the right decision.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

hmm. i don't have any advice besides 'do what makes you happy', cause that's what i do. and also you will look back at that journal entry in two years and CRINGE. haha. trust me. cringe.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Katie:

I am an intelligent woman, not unlike yourself, and when I finished school I said "Fuck it" to everyone who expected me to go to university right away and become a famous brain surgeon or whatever smart girls are supposed to become. I took a few years to do what I wanted (including shit jobs, and being lazy; what parents call "wasting your life") and you know what - it was great. I did go to university eventually, I am now in a successful career that I love, and that I doubt I would have ended up in had I not had those so-called "goofing off" years.

As for owing one's parents something - parents are there to support you and should let you make your own "mistakes". People who say to cut all ties now should realize just how difficult a position that is - what 18 (19, 20) year old is truly ready to be a completely self- sustaining unit?

With any luck, your parents will realize that you have to do, and will do, what you feel is right for you, right now. Hopefully they will be willing to support you (financially, emotionally) a little while longer and also realize that this sacrifice on their part (letting their "baby" make what they feel are the biggest mistakes ever- even though they aren't!) will help you grow, and become the ultra successful woman they you are destined to become. (Not that you aren't successful now, I mean in terms of self-sustaining, at top of the corporate food chain, etc. :)

Good luck Katie and follow your heart.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

May I ask, Katie, when else in your life you can get four years of college education and a car, if only you pay for half the car over the four years?

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with choosing to get an associate's degree instead. However, spend some *serious* time considering what you're giving up if you decide to get out of this agreement you have with your parents.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

Oh, a couple off-topic responses:

Regardless of how many people put up PayPal buttons on their sites-- and for whatever reason--it's still tacky to do so. It strikes me as electronic panhandling, especially when done on personal sites.

Also, Lyndsey, you're right: Bill Gates had attended Harvard. In fact, I work in the building he and Steve Ballmer paid Harvard to construct in memory of their mothers their mothers (Maxwell-Dworkin, or "Max-Dork").

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

What I meant to say was Bill Gates never FINISHED college... sheesh... make one small slip up while typing and everyone goes apeshit on ya... =)

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

I don't see anything tasteless about PayPal buttons at all.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2001

Katie, I can see your point, but have you ever thought that you're lucky in a way?? You have parents who care about you to the point that they're concerned about you going to college. As for the car, I've always owned a car since I was 17 (legal driving age in England), in the sense that my parents bought me one (and a second one when I crashed and wrote off the first one). And they pay for the insurance and everything - all I have to do is wash it when I'm at home. But when I asked if I could take it with me to university, they said, 'no'. No discussion, no nothing. Just 'no'. They refuse to pay the excess insurance for me to take it and because I can't afford to pay it myself I have to do without my car. I miss it, and I really wish they would try and see my point of view...but they won't. (And don't think 'if she wants it that much she should get a job and pay for it herself'. I CAN'T. I'm a medical student - it's all I can do to get to my lectures and practicals, do my assignments ,eat, sleep, and see my friends once in a while).

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is...don't feel pressured into anything, don't do anything you don't want to do, but do be aware that your parents are not being unreasonable and they are at least trying to see your point of view and give you a chance.

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2001

I went to school for the full four years, in a subject I wasn't really interested in (because my parents didn't like what I was really interested in, and refused to pay for me to get a degree in English), graduated, and ended up trapped in a shit job anyway -- for 9 years. My parents used money to control me too, so I can totally relate, Katie. It's not in your imagination, you're not being super- immature, you're realising a hard, cold truth. Parents use money to control us. It happens. Give up the car. There's so many other ways to get around -- bus, bike, on foot. Here in Ann Arbor, I know a number of students without a car. They survive.

I have a very good friend who dropped out of college after the first year -- he had a full ride. He knew it wasn't for him. He took a job at a bookstore, all the while working on his first love: nature photography. He self-trained in computer programming (like you, he's a smart cookie) and recently took a job with a stable dot.com in San Francisco, which leaves him ample time (and money) to pursue his photography. I'm not saying he had an easy road -- I was with him through some hard times -- but he's FINALLY doing what he loves and IT DIDN'T TAKE A COLLEGE DEGREE. That's a myth I'd like to put to rest right now. God, I hate people using the fear tactic. It really burns me up.

Back when Kevin dropped out -- in 1986 (yes, I'm that old, just to give you some perspective), of course we thought he was nuts (let me remind you: he had a FULL RIDE). We couldn't foresee the internet then, or dot.coms, knew nothing about the mantra "do what you love."

He was brave. So are you.

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2001

I'm going to go a different way from the other entries here. We have all talked about the need for education. Well, Katie's going to go to school if and when Katie wants to go to school. If she decides not to, or to wait, that's a decision that she will have to live with. But that seems to be the whole problem here. The whole "fly by the seat of your pants" theory is great, and I have no problem with a 19 year old doing that. Most do - but most can afford to because they are either in college and/or still being provided for by their parents. Frankly, it IS very immature to go out on your own, cut off your family, and then complain because you have no money. The problem I have and that hasn't really been explained here is that it's not that her parents volunteered the car, it's that they were coerced into helping her out. She knew damn good and well exactly how much her parents wanted to provide her with a college education. Neither of them have a 4 year degree and they strongly believe that in this day and age she needs it. That's beside the point. She used their desire for her to have an education to convince them to help her get a car. She was tired of asking Eric and her roommates to drive her around. I believe it goes something like "well, I can't go to school if I have no way to get there". Katie knew exactly what she was getting herself into when she signed the contract. She was warned. Her sister had the same deal and yes, it was a string they pulled from time to time, but it was worth dealing with the parents once in a while to get a cheap deal on a car. And did you really think that your parents would be stupid enough to just GIVE you the car with no contract taking into account the mature and considerate way that you left for Virginia in the middle of the night? My advice? Don't bitch when you get what you want. If you were really being independent you would not have to jerk your parents around to get them to buy you a car or ask your grandmother for her inheritance (which, by the way is just as grotesque as putting up a donation link on your website). It definitely shows what kind of person you are and it is not a pretty picture. You may not be grown up enough to see it now, but you decide what kind of person you want to be. And I may be giving Eric more credit than he deserves right now, but you are not an independent adult if you let someone else dictate your life for you. I'm not sure if you had these ideas before or if the lack of intelligence is rubbing off on you. God forbid you two should procreate, but thankfully we will never see what that would look like. Eric, just out of curiousity were you a philosophy major? I find it highly amusing that you keep saying that you think that Katie should "go her own way" and yet you seem to be steering her in a direction just as much as anyone else tried to. Just because you have a career (aka job) and are happy tripping along in your day to day world with no permanent goals doesn't mean everyone is. Maybe Katie is, I don't know. Sure doesn't seem like it. But I guess it's pretty easy for you to do that considering you still live at home and are provided for by mommy with no bills to pay. Believe me, it's a lot harder to live day to day with no money, no where to live, and no one to rely on. The difference here is that when her parents were trying to give her advice and steer her on a course they were providing monetary support - when we see her moving in with you and you supporting her because she can't find a menial job that she enjoys then you can talk. But I guess that's not possible because it would cramp your parent-mooching style, right?

Hey folks, if you've never seen the blind leading the blind before, step right up. At least she somewhat has an excuse in that she is younger. I've seen slugs more motivated than Eric. But back to the whole parental unit thing. Katie, your inability to see both sides of an issue is reminiscent of a family member that you would rather die than be like. You have no idea what you have put your parents through nor do you seem to care. Your family is getting too old to be put on a roller coaster ride every time you call them with another crisis. You want to be an adult, you obviously want to cut off your family, then deal with your problems yourself - don't give your father any more ulcers. You don't want anyone to care about you, but you want people to be there to help and support you. Well, wake up and join the real world because you can't have it both ways.

You know what they say in preschool? Waahh. Well, of course you do, you've been crying like a child for about the last 6 months now.

Also Eric, before you write back with you blubbering ranting, just remember one thing - It'll take me a lot less time and effort to make you my bitch then it took for you to make Katie yours...

-- Anonymous, April 15, 2001

Great post, Nic.

I didn't get my license until this January--a month before my 20th birthday. I was being lazy and didn't care to drive. My parents broke down last November and told me that they would buy me a car if I got my license. I'm probably spoiled because those were the only strings. I'm going to school because I want to go to school, I love learning, and my classes are fairly challenging. I know that I will, eventually, have to make my way into the food chain and I want to have some ammunition on my side. In the form of a masters. But I'm taking my time, because I am lucky enough to have a lot of it (most of us young people are).

But I'm not telling anyone to go to college. If it's not right for you--then it's not right for you, that's not a judgement call that I can make.

My only advice to Katie is that she should decide what she wants to do with her life, and to work towards that. Goals are not a bad thing. Goals are what fuel the creation of invention, art and structure. If Steinbeck hadn't bothered to continue writing, to give in to the nagging thought that what he was writing was "no good," we would have no "The Grapes of Wrath." If you are not working towards your goals; then you are wasting space.

And Eric--our generation is not the aimless, fruitless, slacker generation that you seem to think we are. Simply because you are that way, and (possibly) the people you know are that way, it does not mean that all twenty-somethings are that way. By the time I'm 25, I plan to have opened a Roth IRA and will be contributing to it monthly. I have friends who are the same way (and no, we're not Republicans--we simply want to secure our own future, and what's wrong with that?). The difference between our goals and your dreams is that we are working towards ours on a daily basis. Dreams are nice, but they don't exactly motivate a person into action.

And PayPals are utterly distasteful.

Katie.

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2001

I wasn't a philosophy major, although I considered minoring in it. My major was English, Professional Writing concentration.

Why wait until you're 25? I'm 23, and already have several thousand dollars in my 401(k) plan. And you all said I was too immature.

Everyone seems to be griping because Katie isn't living up to her full potential. Well, what's the sin in that? How many of us are? I know I'm not. Nobody in my family is. My friends aren't. Tiger Woods is. Tiger Woods is living up to his full potential. But what all the other folks on his high school golf team? Did they live up to theirs? Bill Gates, Michael Jordan, Nelson Rockefeller... yeah, they're living (or lived, in Nelson's case) up to theirs, but how many others fell short because life got in the way? We don't live in a vacuum, there are outside influences that keep us from shooting straight to the top of our own little personal Potential-O-Meters. So it's looking like Katie will never be a history professor. That doesn't mean her life is over. Life does not begin with a bachelor's. And if you've decided, like me, that it'll probably never happen, that doesn't mean life is over. So I have to work a little harder for the things that I want. What's wrong with a little hard work? I took Katie out to dinner last night, and noticed that my hands were a little dirty. They smelled like labor. And that didn't bother me. In fact, it gave me a sense of accomplishment. I DID something yesterday. I contributed to the great commercial-industrial machine. And when I go to the airport today and pick up my paycheck, that will be my reward. Yay me.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2001

"They smelled like labor."

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2001

Eric, you seem to have a very small idea of what living up to your potential is. I guess that everyone has their own idea of what that is, but in your opinion it seems that living up to your potential equals success and money. Well, I think that I'm living up to my potential, and as a teacher I am definitely not making large sums of money. I wouldn't make Tiger Woods yearly salary in a lifetime. But I enjoy my job. I GET to go to work everyday. The paycheck is a nice perk, but honestly everyone has to work to make a living to survive. Living up to your potential means different things for different people. It may mean making large sums of money, having a job you enjoy, or being a good person. Everybody has a different talent. Some are more musical, mechanical, book smart, etc. I think all anyone is saying is that Katie is way too academically intelligent to waste that gift in jobs that are not geared toward her strength. But if she is happy being a receptionist or cashier or whatever for the rest of her life then no, she may not be living up to her potential, but she is successful job-wise.

(Exactly what does labor smell like anyway?)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2001

Sis,

I'm merely using the definition of "living up to your full potential" that society has come up with - sometimes, it seems, specifically to yell at me for not living up to mine. With a degree, I could get a job that pays a lot more than the job I have. But I, like you, GET to go to work. I LOVE my job. And I'm told I'm not living up to my potential. Not that it's anyone's business but my own, but...

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001

Did I miss a meeting? Did you and Katie run off and get married? I wasn't aware that we were already in-laws, "Bro". Maybe in Virginia certain things constitute a common law marriage :D

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001

Well, we raised a barn last week, split the cost of a new huntin' dog, and we use the same brand of chew... where I comes from, you got that, you don't need no minister. :)

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001

Here's something I really don't understand. People are basically saying "Yes, your parents are using the car to control you. Don't take things from them if you don't want to be controlled."

So, you're saying it's okay to have a handle on somebody's life just because you give them something? I think that's total crap. If I give somebody something, I am giving it to them. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect to be able to control them in any way. Obviously I've never given anyone something like a deal on a car, but if I did, I wouldn't use it to my advantage. Things like that make me sick.

Kind of like when somebody does something really nice, like help you move somewhere and let you live with them, and then they always expect something out of you. Complete crap.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001

My father likes to use his money to control people too. When I told him I was getting married he threatened to stop paying for school. Well, I don't like the idea of letting anyone's money control me. So, now, I'm (with the help of the government) paying for school. My father and I are having a relationship on my terms. Some people feel that their 'help' gives them a say in your life. Those are the people you say 'no thanks, I'll do it on my own' to. Of course it's not okay, but some people do think that way. Do whatever will make you feel the best.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001

"So, you're saying it's okay to have a handle on somebody's life just because you give them something? I think that's total crap. If I give somebody something, I am giving it to them. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect to be able to control them in any way. Obviously I've never given anyone something like a deal on a car, but if I did, I wouldn't use it to my advantage. Things like that make me sick."

--Katie, I thought you signed a contract with your parents that said you can get the car IF you're in school full-time. I thought it WASN'T just given to you, and you agreed to that. Am I wrong?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

You're right, I did sign a contract saying I had to be in school full-time. But it never said how long; I had no idea that I couldn't decide to just get my associate's degree. My parents tried to say that the contract stated that I had to go for four years, but it did not.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Ohhh, that's right. I remember now.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

I have a question also. Are your parents paying for school if you decide to go?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001