I'm trying to decide what to do about buying a couple of does to milk for my family, and am confused about CAE prevention. Here's my question: If I buy 2 does and an unrelated buck that are CAE free (bottle raised on heat treated colostrum and pasturized milk),and breed the does and let their kids be dam-raised, can I be certain that the kids are then CAE free? If I keep breeding the does to the same buck and don't bring in new animals, will they remain CAE free? I really am balking at the thought of taking the kids away at birth and hand raising, not because of the extra work, but because it seems hard on the animals. A childhood friend of mine had a dog who had puppies and my friend's parents took the pups away at birth and killed them(it was accidental inbreeding). Her dog was depressed for a long time after that. I wonder if it might be the same for goats. Please understand that I'm *not* criticising those who do hand raise (I know it's responsible practice) but I'm questioning if *I* want to do it. Thanks

-- Elizabeth in e tx (kimprice@peoplescom.net), March 23, 2001

Answers

I raise goats ,but I don't have enough knowlege on CAE.But can share something about goats feelings.I have an Alpine who was my friendliest goat,She use to want to be pet and would rub her head on me and lick my far head.Maybe just for salt? But she got pregnant from a pgymy buck who got out of his pen and breed with her.I didn't want my other gosts to get breed with him so I gave him away.Since I gave him away,she has never been the same.She isn't friendly anymore,and about 3 weeks ago the kids were born and she keeps them from being friendly.When I relate with her new kids,she cries in a way that makes them go over to her.She doesn't want me to touch them.I've seen this before, but to a lesser degree with my other goats after I've sold their kids.It might be better to break the mother kid relation in the begining by bottle feeding.I'm going to try it with the next one kids,I believe that if the goats that you buy were bottle feed as kids and 2 or 3 generation of her ancestry was done this way the goats will have no problem with bottle feeding when it comes to their emotions .I bought a nubian from a friend who bottle feeds all her goats.When she gave birth she seem to expect me to bottle feed her kids. She has little concern toward her kids although she'll feed them .It seems to me after generations of being bottle feed,goats seem to lose some of their maternal instinct.Makes it easier when it's time to sell the kids

-- Steve (a12goat@cs.com), March 23, 2001.

The plan you have should work fine if you know for sure the does and buck are CAE free.Have them tested.Don't take the current owners word for it.I made that mistake and it took me several years to clean up the mess.I think she really believed the goats were clean but they were not.

-- JT (gone2seed@hotmail.com), March 23, 2001.

Elizabeth, there isn't REALLY enough known about CAE to make the plan that you have laid out to be certain. CAE seems to be brought out as a positive by stress, this can be being moved, having kids, getting sick, any number of things. The ONLY way to truly raise goat kids on CAE prevention is to take the kids at birth, use clean colostrum and bottle feed from the satrt and KEEP it that way. I have a whole passel of CAE+ goats including one who came from a CAE free herd (free of it for years) and was dam raised. Sorry, but the truth of the matter is that not enough is known about it and goats that are CAE- don't always stay that way.

The GOOD news is that CAE is NOT necessarily a death sentence. If you can keep the goats asympotmatic through good feeding and care they can be pos for years and have no problems.I am not saying that it doesn't matter. Do everything in your power to prevent it, but it does just pop up after a stress in some goats...God knows why, but we don't.

I'd rather have the goat be upset for a bit than to have all the goats be definitely positive. When I have taken the kids the doe is upset for a day or two, then she wants nothing to do with them. Be there when they are born and get all messy and she'll think you are her kid and bond more with you. Good luck.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 23, 2001.

If I were you I'd be absolutely certain that the kids you buy were CAE free. Then, as long as you don't bring in any questionable animals, you should be okay. I really don't think CAE is transfered all that easy, though. I have one CAE positive doe who consistently gives me triplets and 17+ lbs. per day. I am not always present at her birthings (since she's so good at it!) so sometimes the babies take colostrum before I can stop them. All the kids that I have kept (does) from her consistently test neg. Go figure!!! Anyways, I'm a firm believer in bottle-feeding from birth. The kids are more tame and the does don't seem to care!

-- Marcia (HrMr@.webtv.net), March 23, 2001.

If all the goats are from a completely negative herd that has been negative for years and the owner has hard proof of the fact, then yes you can dam raise the kids. Ask to see the test results, do not settle for their word on it! Dam raised kids grow faster, have less health problems, eat solid food faster and are less clingy and annoying. Though I guess the latter is a matter of preference. I want my goats to be happy to see me, but not so dependant that they holler for me every time I'm away from them. Dam raised kids can be quite friendly if you handle them often from birth. If you just leave them to do their own thing they will be more shy of you.

I just had a doe birth this morning. She is completely disinterested in her gorgeous doe kid. The kid is lively and wants to nurse but the dam could care less and is acting completely stupid about it. She never has been bright but this takes the cake. She is the third doe to reject her kid this year, all three does were bottle fed as kids. The does that were dam raised are always good mothers here, even as inexperienced yearlings. I plan to sell 'Stupid' as soon as I can!

-- Rebekah Leaf (daniel1@itss.net), March 24, 2001.

Marcia, the real test of your negative kids will come when you sell one and it is tested after the sale. Stress, especially in yearlings, after a sale is the best test of your disease free status. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 24, 2001.

CAE is not a "condition", it is a viral disease. Your goats either have the virus or they don't. They can't catch it by being stressed, like the common cold virus. They have to be exposed to it through nursing. Other means of transmission, such as mating or sneezing have been suggested, but not proven. That said, testing for CAE is not 100%. A goat with CAE can test negative several years before showing positive on a blood test. I think what others are saying in their responses is that a CAE positive goat may not test positive until until a trigger comes along. The transmission and manifestation of CAE is similar to the AIDS virus. In fact, AIDS researchers are using goats and CAE to get a better understanding of AIDS.

The question of hand raising is more an issue of what you are using both doe and kid for. If you are going to show the does, nursing will ruin the udder (for show purposes). If you want affectionate does that are easy to handle, bottle raising is the only way to go. Dam raised kids tend to be skittish, independant and harder to handle.

If there is any doubt at all as whether your does are CAE negative/positive, I would heat treat the milk to kill any possible CAE virus and bottle feed the kids.

The best way to assure CAE negitive animals is to only buy from breeders you have developed a personal relationship with and whose herd has tested negative for years. We test every six months and continue to show negative. We only buy from other breeders who we can trust that also historically test free.

Taking the kids away after freshening is not a problem. The doe will cry for a day or two, but soon forgets. After three or four days they show no interest in their own kids if we re-introduce them. It's not at all "hard" on the animals and helps assure that each kid gets good nutrition. You will also be alerted of any health problems immediately. By the time you notice that a dam raised kid is sick, its often too late to save it.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), March 24, 2001.