I am baffled by the absence of million dollar endowments in the black church. There are churches which have had revenues ranging from 250,000 to 2 million dollars a year for over 20 years and yet these institutions have no significant capital reserve. Instead of getting a loan for 500,000 to 1,000,000 dollars to build a new church, these churches could have a 5 year capital growth program to raise a 1,000,000. One third of this 1,000,000 could be invested in safe investments like bonds and CD's. One third could be invested in moderate risk investments like index mutual funds, and then the final third could be invested in stocks which have been paying dividends consistently. When you think about it, the interest on 1,000,000 would allow a church to pay the payments on any mortgage loan for expansion. The interests would also allow the church to sponsor scholarships and develop new outreach ministries. Most of the mutual fund companies have institutional investment representatives. Can anyone out there counter my argument?

JazzMan

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Answers

Jazzman; Your observation about the fiscal condition of many of our more prosperous churches is sad but true. The absence of endowments merely reflects the contiuned overly cautious/conservative investment strategy adopted by church leaders. We have become uncritically risk-averse in our money mangement enterprises. This results in lost investment opportunities and fewer resources to address long-term congregational needs. I once chatted with a prominent AME clergyman about the financing tool of "church bonds" to finance expansion projects. His reluctance to pursue such a strategy was based simply on fear and apprehension about how the market for debentures operate. While I don't think a pastor should be required to be a "Wharton MBA", it would be helpful to at least understand the basic principles of compound interest, cost of capital and the mechanics of money creation. If any pastor or church trustee/steward is reading this I would be more than happy to provide refresher courses in these areas :-) QED

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Jazzman thanks for presenting your question. This past Sunday during fellowship hour I talked to the congregation about economic development for individuals and the church. It was an exciting discussion and I encourage everyone to ask their Pastor about having a discussion on financial matters. I asked the congregation how many people had IRA's, mutual funds, CD's or other investments. We also talked about how to have money for missions, etc. As you know I am learning as I go along. I have asked a financial planner to come to our church on April,1st. To do a workshop for us and the community. Not only is he coming to do the workshop he will be worshipping with us also. Since we are a small congregation and a new congregation we can start now with investments that will help us to acquire a church building. Also I am finding that planning this workshop is a great evangelism tool. Our Religious Director will be in charge of the program and our Director of Evangelism will send follow up cards to those who are attending for the first time. The congregation is so excited about economic development that it is helping us see how we can do God's work with investments.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Thank you Bill and Rev. Rogers for your positive response to my question. Rev. Rogers, I am going to pray that your church has some success with individual investments and also with the investments of the church. I hope that your success will be so great that it will serve as a model for all the churches. If I could have one thing for Christmas, it would be an investment plan for our black churches with the goal of a million dollar endowment. Can you imagine the force that an organized church like the AME church would be if more than half of them had these kind of endowments? Imagine all the work of God that we could accomplish.

JazzMan

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Thank you for your prayers for the church. They are excited about the presentation and already people who have not heard about our church are planning to come.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Let me share with you a system that will allways work> It will work in the home and church. "Bring all the tithes and offerings to my house." Rev. Denise, you have a unique opportunity to teach, preach, and live this principle to a group of new believers. My prayers are that the catholic church and the AME Church in particular will release the ways of the world and embrace the ways of God. Investment schemes are for businesses. We do not embrace the ways of business, else why would we spend 5 days in revival, spend perhaps thousands of dollars on utitlities, transportation, and preacher fees, then call it successful because one sinner came to Christ? Try the tithing system, it works. God will supply your every need and throw in a few luxuries too! Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2001

Bro. Alton, It seems as if you are against the church's investing money to "create" more income.

How about the parable(s?) in which the steward is chastised and I believed punished for his failure to invest funds entrusted to him so that these funds could at least earn some interest?

In many large cities, there are large downtown churches whose memberships have either moved to the suburbs or have died off, yet they are able to continue operations because of endowment funds or other funds (e.g., bequests) set aside years ago to provide an on going income.

I'm not criticizing tithing; I'm all for it - I'm just suggesting that it would be wise to invest a portion of the monies received rather than spending every dollar we receive.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Larry this past sunday April 1, we had a financial planner do a workshop on investments, how to get started, why the stock market is so volatile and long range retirement planning. At one point I had to fight back tears for the congregation wanted to talk about investing money for our partnership church in Namibia, and wanted to discuss ways to invest money for mission projects. It was such a blessing to see the congregation looking at investing as a way to also help others. The financial planner that came to our church is a christia and an elder in the Disciples of Christ Church. It made a difference in our discussion as people quoted scripture and prayed during the workshop. It was a blessed day.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Larry, I certainly am against the church getting involved in business. In fact, I beleive that God cannot bless a church or denomination that engages in business ventures. If a church or denomination engages in for profit business, the rewards will depend upon the skill and luck of the investors. On the other hand, if you bring your tithes and offerings to the Lord, He can make the return 10 fold, 100 fold or a thousand fold. He will satisfy all the needs of the church or denomination. The individual members of the church including the pastor can engae in business activites and invoke the blessings of the Lord upon their business, and God will bless them if the business is conducted in accordance with His will. But He has told us how to support the church. Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Some more thoughts on this: Is it significant to us, and does it apply to this discussion, the fact that God would not allow the Children of Israel gather more than they needed of the Manna?

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Dear Rev. Paris,

I agree with you that God will bless individuals who conduct business according to his will. I disagree with your statement that God " cannot bless a church or denomination that engages in business ventures". The catholic church is the best example of how God has blessed a denomination which engages in business ventures. The catholic church owns 40% of the health care systems in the U.S. Can you imagine how much wealth that this involves? This denomination also encourages tithing but they use the tithe to invest in business ventures which are socially responsible. The catholic church has used the wealth of their business investments to sponsor some of the best schools(K through college) in the world. This denomination has also sponsored some of the best hospitals, nursing homes, and orphanages in the world. Their list of charitable activities are innumerable. The black church can show its faith in God by praying and fasting about business ventures first. If God says yes, then by all means, we should develop a long term investment plan which could involve something as simple as buying residential property, mutual funds, stocks with the ultimate goal of establishing a church endowment. An endowment that would of course be used according to the will of God. JazzMan

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

Great discussion everyone. I asked a Christian financial planner to do a workshop at our church, for I wanted the congregation to discuss God's role in financial planning and to also discuss abundance as a spiritual principle. One of the priorities that God has put on our hearts is mission for our AME churches in Africa. In particular our sister church Purity AME in Namibia. Members of the church call during the week to share dreams of helping others. They are excited for we have said that half of what we put in our collection basket will go to mission for we in this country have so much!! We are a brand new church with less than fifty members, yet with the strength of God in our finances tithes are getting larger because God is blessing the congregation. Those who have been unemployed now have jobs, because they tithe what they have to the lord, one member was evicted yet she gave her last five dollars to our sister church. The next day she was rewarded with a place to live and got a job! Tithing is a spiritual principal. We will be starting a special mutual fund for missions, and we will be looking at the Pax fund and other funds that do humanitarian work. Contributing to a a mutual fund for missions is tithing to me. I think so many of us are afraid to tithe because it is not explained as a spiritual principal. Money can be used to serve God! God has not told our church to save for a sanctuary, but he is telling us to help our brothers and sisters in Africa! We will be obedient. By the way yesterday our outreach coordinator picked up 200 hymnals that was given to our church by the baptist church in town. They were free! If we had been saving to buy hymals it would have taken forever. God will provide all that we need to run a church. But we must be obedient and take care of the poor and go to the sinners and shut ins

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

JazzMan,

The amount of income from investments made by the Catholic church is not an indication of God's blessings but the quality of investment decisions made by the administrators. Many, with no thought for God amass vast fortunes if they invest wisely and are astute business persons. I think the number of people who hear the Word and respond positively to it is more indicative of God's blessings; but not the only indicator. The Catholic church is decreasing in membership just as the AME Church is decreasing. Is that an indication of God's favor, didfavor? I can't see material wealth as the correct measure of God's blessings. It may be a blessing to lose one's wealth if it seperates one from God. The church is not a welfare organization. Those who are ministered to by the church is responsible for its support. Remember how Jesus said that the woman who gave her all (one penny) was more than what was given by the others out of their excess. God's blessings can come in many ways and will come if we minister to the flock of God. For example, He can and has moved on the hearts of others to give large sums as endowments. He never called us to seek those endowments by writing proposals, etc,. We are to seek first the kingdom of God and all those things wil be added to us. That is what Jesus said. Study the first chapter of Haggai to see what can happen to material things.

Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

I agree with you JazzMan. I believe that churches should encourage both tithes and offerings. The church is both a religious institution and a business and I think that offerings may and should be used in ways that benefit the operation of the church as a business. This however, does not negate the spiritual influence which the church exerts. In fact I know of one large A.M.E. congregation that impacted the urban community which surrounded it by purchasing and renovating several old business establishments, as they became available. By doing so they are now able exert a positive, religious influence on their environment, the community looks a whole lot better, and they will control what this community will ultimately become.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

Dear Rev. Rogers, I am delighted that your congregation is experiencing success. I will continue to pray that God will bless your congregation so mightily that your success will serve as a model for all the churches of just what a little faith in God can grow and produce. I won't dare try to preach to you being a nonpreacher but somewhere I recall reading in the Bible that we can only please God with faith. Our actions are as filthy rags. However, faith without works is dead. Therefore, we in the black church need to seek God's will about everything and if He gives permission to us to invest a portion of church proceeds wisely, then by all means we should invest it wisely and use the proceeds according to His will. I recall the parable of the talents where one individual was given 5 talents, another 2 talents and another 1 talents. The individual with one talent buried his 1 talent in the ground because he was afraid of what the master would do if he loss it. The master returned and rewarded the individuals with the 5 and 2 talents because they had increased their returns by 100%.(Don't ever expect a 100% return on a mutual fund or stock in a one year period) However, the individual who played it safe by burying his money in the ground was punished by the master by having his 1 talent given to the other wise individuals who had invested with a greater return. The lesson in this parable is that we have to give an account to God our master as to what we did with the abilities, wealth, time, and any other gift he has given us during our lives. Will God say "Well done thy good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a few things therefore, I will make you ruler over many" or will He say otherwise. I would also encourage the members of your Namibian sister church to invest as much of their currency in the U.S. stock market also just like all the countries of the world have parked a great portion of their assets here. Finally, the catholic church success did not happen without the knowledge or permission of God. As I understand it, God will only bless activities which are according to His will. In a like manner, He will only answer in the affirmative prayers that are according to His will. This is what it means to ask for things in Jesus name.

JazzMan

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

Jazzman everything that I and my church have done has been directed by God and to him all of our success stems. God gave me the name of the church, the date to start, and even the location. We are a prayerful church. Though we send money to our sister church we are the ones that are blessed. We have adopted their theme which is "The Mustard Seed People of Faith!" There is definitely a revival going on in the fifth district and I am excited to be a part of it. Jesus was very clear with his actions, they were all based in love and faith. Mutual Funds, and tithes for us are a means to do God's work, with Mission, going into rural areas to preach the gospel message. We are excited for Jesus!! And God is our Master. With him all things are possible. We as Christians have a wonderful opportunity to affect change through evangelism. We must never settle for a Country club mentality, but we must proclaim the good news through out the world. St. Paul Community Church is on fire for the lord, we will continue his work, though we meet in a restaraunt, we go into the community and share the love of Christ. In a few weeks we will have our first baptism, a 65 year old woman who is blind who has never attended church. She knows that we are a church of love. As we discuss Mutual funds please keep the discussion in the spiritual realm for God can and will take our money that we give to build his kingdom and multiply it. And in terms of giving money to our sister church, what they do with the money is up to them. Though they are planning to build a sanctuary next year and a school. They have been without a building for nine years. Thank you for your prayers Jazzman, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and your prayers strengthen us.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

Brother Robert Matthews: Did anybody get saved while all that economic progress was going on? What good is it for a man/woman to gain the world and lose his/her soul? The church ought to be in the soul-saving business first. There is a place for other ministries under the umbrella of the church. Those should be profit-making corporations/business run by and for profit.

Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

It is my understanding that Salvation is the Lord's not ours. Jesus ALONE is Lord and Savior. We are only--except for the blood of Christ- -His most unworthy vessels. He therefore can use any vessel He chooses and I dare not tell Him when or how. A case in point: Read the life story of the Reverend David Smith and see how God brought him through. This God ALONE did through the use of means which we in modern times, with our high and lofty church minds might have frowned upon as being unlikely or unfit vessels. Yet God chose and did use them. In the words of J.B. Phillips, for many of us "(Y) Our God Is Too Small." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/dsmith/dsmith.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the congregation mentioned above, when God used them to turn around a drug infested, crime infested environment and make it a wholesome, godly one--Thanks be to God and God ALONE--a portion of a major city was saved, lives were saved, and most of all, souls WERE and still ARE being saved. Love, Joy, and Peace, Robert Matthews

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2001

You are absolutely correct. God chose to place the good news in earthen vessels so that everyman would have opportunity. And it is our job to sy to the world that God is good, all the time. Even if material propserity is not present, God is still good. E. V. Hill said once, "The church is not a business. We will keep the lights on day and night to save one soul. That is not good business; does not make sense; but that is our business; the saving of souls." Salvation does not have to lead to economic success. The closing verses of that great chapter on faith, Hebrews 11, indicate that we may not see in our earthly time, the resolution of all suffering, but God is still good.

Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2001

Isn't it wonderful that God doesn't need our permissions or our opinions, no matter how scholarly, to be God? He just goes right on being God and his blessings never cease.

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2001

I hate to beat this same horse but this is something that is very important to us as a people. God does not bless His people unconditionally. Read Deuteronomy 30:11-20. Pay particular where He says, "Behold I have set before you today, life and good, death and evil. . . . ". Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2001