Hi, I am sure you guys are tired of my questions! I have a 3yo nubian who freshened about 6 weeks ago. She has never been a great producer but average I would say. She did well until a couple of weeks ago and I noticed a sudden drop in milk, I mean a drastic not even covering the bottom of the pail. She looked thin and not much appetite. I have wormed her twice and she did improve a little but now she is back to no appetite. She is very picky about her eating companions. I have put the kid back in with the does due to space but none are nursing. She has an abvious distaste for them. Her udder is soft and not hot, no lumps. Just empty. There are times whrn she seems to have more milk but still nothing like last year. She is standoffish to the herd, she has always been alittle like this but not to this extent. I mix my own feed with BOSS, chopped corn, soybean meal, and oats and they have free choice hay with some alfalfa. Overall they hay appetite is down due to the greening up of the pastures. Everyone else is fine and producing great. This did occur about the time I put the kids back in with them, could she be that moody? I know they don't nurse as she won't go near them. I can also see them from my back door and have kept a close eye. It is as if she is just drying up.She did not do this last year. She has a high and tight udder but did produce better. Should I try some medicated feed or worm with something else( I used safe-guard)? Thanks, Cindy

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), March 15, 2001

Answers

Presuming she isn't just plain sick, maybe you could really separate her from the kids for a day just to see what happens. I thought kids had stopped nursing, watched and never saw it, yet when I sold the last kid . . . AMAZING! the doe had lots of milk!! If that doesn't help, maybe giving her some PROBIOS will get her eating well again. Also, if you can find one of those protein blocks for sheep, they frequently have a good deal of salt in them. Salt makes you thirsty. Drinking lots of water is good for milk production. You see what I'm getting at? Good luck!

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@seedlaw.com), March 15, 2001.

We would have to use safeguard at 5 times the dosage, which would upset the does rumen, just to get an average kill. The cheapest route really would be to take a fecal sample into the vet 7$ here, and have them tell you what worms you are dealing with. I use Valbazen on my milkers since we know at 8cc per 100 pounds we only have a 36 hour milk withdrawl. Remember that fresh beautiful grass is really just a parasite heaven. The worms that haven't been killed by a severe ground freeze are just waiting their for your does to come graze them into their system. Some worms multiply so quickly that even if wormed, in 18 days you can have severe worm burdens of them again. This is why it is so important to know which worms are bothering you. And having a vet tell you you have hemoncous, or strongides is so important, might want to see if they can also give you how many parts per gram. This time of year we worm when the numbers rise to 1000 per gram, but come April we won't let them have 200 per gram. Then worm with something new, then 10 days later take in another fecal and see if it worked. This is also something that anybody can easily learn to do on their own with a kit for under 20$, www.llamaproducts.com sites on the internet that show you what you are looking at and a cheapo Toys R Us micorscope that has to have its own light source. Nothing fancy at all! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 15, 2001.

I would bet you have both problems.Worms and the kids are nursing.I agree with Vicki.The Safegard isn't strong enough to do the job.Most feed stores carry Ivermectin horse wormer in paste form.Give her a double dose of that.I am suggesting Ivermec because most feed stores here don't carry Valbazen.We have to order that.You can't wait that long.Save the Safegard to use just before kidding time.You do need to move quickly on this.

-- JT (gone2seed@hotmail.com), March 15, 2001.

If I use Ivermectin, how long do I hold her milk. I used this during the early fall so I still have some.This may sound silly, how do I get a sample from just her? I really don't have a place to keep her alone. We have not beeen here but 6 months and no other animals have been here for 15 years , well as far as on pasture. Is this a plus or minus. It has been almost exactly 18 days since I wormed her last. Do I need to worm everyone again? But go figure, tonight she was fighting, not literally, for the alfalfa. At least she was interested. How long do I give her to improve? Do you think she will come back into decent production if this is the problem? Thanks, Cindy

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), March 15, 2001.

If we are going to blame this only on worms than 18 days ago you just fed the worms and didn't kill any, and then the time before you wormed with safeguard, same thing. So how long has it really been since you wormed? Also in the fall of the year these very smart mama worms will put their juvinile undeveloped worms to sleep in your stock, they are in what is called arrested development (arrested larve) a time of stress like kidding activate these arrested larve giving you huge worm burdens nearly overnight. They are bathed in the hormones of freshening to waken.

So yes worm now. What form of Ivermectin do you have? I would also give her probios or yogurt with live culture to get the numbers of bacteria up in her rumen. Good cured grass hay has natural bicarbonates in it, but you may want to put out some baking soda also. She should perk up if she is not to anemic. She should also perk up her production. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 15, 2001.

Vicki, I have zimecterin paste 1.87%. I wormed with it in September. I wormed with safe-guard on March and doubled the dose, as I was instructed. She loves yogurt and I will put out some baking soda in the am. I did get a whole 8 ounces this evening. That is an improvement. How long to hold her milk? Cindy

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), March 15, 2001.

There is no milk withdrawl for Ivermectin, the reason I do not use it on my milkers. But if you want me to make up a time, 10 days :) Since their are no published milk withdrawl times, even in Goat Medicine the carrier was found in the milk after 30 days, it really is just a guess. But just like all withdrawls if you aren't allergic to the meds and the carriers in the meds than it doesn't really affect you. I would opt for a better bensazole, using Valbazen. Keeping the Ivermectin for does you don't milk, and your bucks. I prefer Valbazen for my kids also, really the only class of stock that get bothered by tapeworms on my place. Cydectin also touts a no-milk withdrawl, problem is this is for cattle, for a much lesser dosage per body wieght and also we give it orally instead of pouring it on, so who knows if their is milk withdrawl or not, I know of nobody who is testing this product orally either, for withdrawls anyway. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 15, 2001.

The vet told me 5 days with the Cydectin, all I know is I didn't get sick drinking it on the 6th day. I imagine it's there in small bits for a while. On the Penicilan meds, I'm alergic to Pen., and it said 4 days but I wait at least a week or 10 days.

How long did the doe milk last year? Some does, if you don't teach them to be milkers will just dry up. I learned that the hard way.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), March 16, 2001.

Vicki, If I have to order the Valbazen,can she wait or do I need to go ahead with the ivermectin and order it for later? Cindy, She milked until I bred her, we went on vacation in Sept and i just dried them off instead of having someone come in, she had been in milk for 9+ months. Cindy

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), March 16, 2001.

I think the only way you will know for sure is lock her up away from the kids, they might very well be getting your milk. At least you would know.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@hotmail.com), March 16, 2001.

Vicki, Is anyone familiar with morantel tartrate (sp?)as a wormer, it comes mixed in a feed for goats 1lb per 100lbs. I do have to order valbazen and this is what the fellow at the feed store reccommended. Cindy

-- Cindy (ourfamilyfarm@email.msn.com), March 16, 2001.

Hi Cindy, tartrates are the feed through type wormers like the horse wormer pyrantel tartrate. I do know that Golden Blend wormer is used once a month, along with thier feeding program. You use the goat feed with the DE in it all the time, taking them off this feed and using the feed you are talking about with the wormer in it. Very honestly I have no idea if it works or not, I have never used it. I have a worming program along with fecals to show me what is working and what isn't so it really gives me no reason right now to switch. Once we see further resistance to Valbazen or any to Ivermectin, we will be using cydectin. We also have good results with Levamisole cattle injectable at 3cc per 100 pounds orally, and it has the bonus as being one of the only wormers that effectively treats lungworm, you do have to dose it again in 18 days. There is a very expensive test for lungworm, so if you have this in your area, your vet would know, this would be worth using spring and fall, it also get rid of the same 10 major worms Ivermectin does. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 16, 2001.

I would put the doe in the back seat of the car and haul her down to the local vet. Let them exam and check for worms. Not worth losing a good doe over a few dollars or a quess. If she isn't a good milker but a wonderful mother I would still keep her for the raising of her kids. Good Luck !!

-- Helena Di Maio (windyacs @ptdprolog.net), March 22, 2001.