Into the Math Mix E-Mail This Article Printer-Friendly Version Subscribe to The Post By E. J. Dionne Jr. Tuesday, March 6, 2001; Page A23

Imagine a 13-year-old in a low-income community who describes himself this way: "I'm a math literacy worker. I speak math. I do math. I work with math." His name is David and he's part of a second revolution that Robert Moses, the legendary civil rights activist, is trying to lead through his Algebra Project.

Before anyone in Congress or the White House says another word about education reform, he owes himself a few hours with Moses's new book on his crusade, "Radical Equations." Moses cuts through cant and phony debates with the serene urgency of someone who risked his life in the civil rights revolution.

The thesis of the book -- co-authored with Charles Cobb, another civil rights hero -- is straightforward: that "the most urgent social issue affecting poor people and people of color is economic access. In today's world, economic access and full citizenship depend crucially on math and science literacy."

Verbal literacy, says Moses, a Harvard-trained mathematician, is no longer enough. Algebra, "once solely in place as the gatekeeper for higher math and the priesthood who gained access to it, now is the gatekeeper for citizenship; and people who don't have it are like the people who couldn't read and write in the Industrial Age." The Algebra Project proposes new ways of teaching math to kids others have written off as failures.

Moses argues that unless education is rooted in the culture of today's students, many will just walk away. He believes most students can be inspired to learn higher math, but part of the inspiration will come from organizing by parents and students themselves.

"Like sharecroppers demanding the right to vote 40 years ago when those in power said they did not vote because they were apathetic, our students will have to demand education from those in power who say they do not get educated because they are dysfunctional," he writes. Yet Moses is a realist. "If you are a kid, for example, it can be great to go into a classroom and not be required to do any work, a relief not having anything, or very much, expected of you."

The objective is to win students to the idea that they can learn, and to demand the chance to do so. Once engaged, students feel "less intimidated by difficult material and more determined to master what they didn't understand."

President Bush's education bill, with its requirements for continual testing, will sharpen the debate over whether "teaching to the test" helps or hinders education. Here again, Moses is a realist. The problem with testing is that "we ask teachers to embrace change," and yet "the pressure on teachers is not to take risks but to march whatever children they can, lockstep, toward higher standardized test scores."

But testing is reasonable, because "parents want to know what these kids have learned at the end of the day." How can we satisfy this demand and at the same time "genuinely help -- rather than hindering or punishing -- children's learning?" His answer is totally candid. "We are in a conundrum over this question, because there is no agreement about what assessments should be like in order to do both."

The key, of course, lies in teaching -- the issue, says Rep. David Price (D-N.C.) that neither Democrats nor Republicans are addressing sufficiently. Can that change? In contrast to his hard-line stance on taxes, Bush has been admirably bipartisan in selling his education bill. It would do no harm if Bush encouraged Price and others dedicated to improving teaching to expand the bill's focus.

But Moses's civil rights experience impresses upon him that enduring changes can't just come from the top. They must come from communities of people who organize to make demands, and in the process transform themselves.

"The civil rights movement of the 1960s," he writes, "was less about challenges and protests against white power than feeling our way toward our own power and possibilities -- really a series of challenges by ourselves, and our communities, to ourselves."

One characteristic of America's crooked path to racial equality has been a to-and-fro between calls for "self-help," and political action aimed at tearing down institutionalized racism. The genius of the civil rights era approach was its insistence that these strategies are inseparable. Students who demand the right to learn math are placing obligations on society -- and on themselves. As Moses says, they are addressing exactly the same question their civil rights forebears posed: "How do the people at the bottom get into the mix?" That's still the right question to ask.

© 2001 The Washington Post Company

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-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Answers

All true and left out is that most 10 yr. olds could do Algebra and geometry if prepared in lower grades.
It will never happen because the math "teachers" at that level can't even to arithematic. In Europe and the Orient, they laugh at how far behind the American Students are. Only a few manage to get to the level of the offshore students before going to college. The worst part is that in the US.....the first 2 years of college are "catch up time". In NY State, at the Community College level, over 60% of all students had to take "remedial" reading or math and over 50% had to take both.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Charlie:

All true and left out is that most 10 yr. olds could do Algebra and geometry if prepared in lower grades.

I think this is a good part of it. My son was about 10 when my kids and a bunch of neighbor kids came after school to do homework and get tutoring. Math never came easy for my oldest daughter and one neighbor boy was in for Algebra tutoring every day. We had a big kitchen table with a huge blackboard on the wall. [not exactly standard fare for a kitchen, I suppose]

Anyway, when I asked my son how Algebra was going for him, he said, "I learned it all at the kitchen table when you tutored Darryl."

The big problem, IMO, is that students in the U.S. are taught mathematics in only one way. As a child, I struggled with some math and went to my dad for help. He showed me a COMPLETELY different way of doing it than the teacher had taught, and it was MUCH easier. To compound matters, if one doesn't use the method the teacher has taught, one is somehow "punished." [I'm talking about the years through high-school here. At University, the profs typically don't care how one arrives at the correct solution.]

In high-school, we were required to take a class in "foods" [where we learned to make jello and oatmeal] and "clothing" [where we learned to sew basic items of apparel.] My mom was quite adept at sewing, and she showed me another way of adding a waistband to a skirt I was completing for a school assignment. I did it my mom's way and the teacher gave me an 'F'.

I recently purchased postal stamps at the grocery store. The stamps couldn't be scanned. I want to say that the price of the stamps was $6.80. The clerk struggled to add $6.80 to my bill. Once he'd finished, I said, "That's incorrect." He called over his manager. SHE struggled to add $6.80 to my bill and I STILL said "That's incorrect." I just couldn't understand why they didn't add $7.00 and subtract $.20. Finally, the manager got a calculator. She came back and said, "The lady is right. She only owes this much." D'OH!

American students were never taught the little "tips". For instance, who sits and calculates a 15% tip on a dinner? Isn't it easier to look at a $42.00 bill, calculate 10% easily in your head as $4.20 and then add another half of $2.10 to it? There ya go...$6.30.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Using calculators, computers and scanning lasers is the reason that today's sales clerks can't compute "in their heads". If they had to do it hourly, they would be much better and one can notice the difference in change making ablity in a convenience store without the change function "your change is" and those that have such things.

It is the constant "working with numbers" that enables people to do things in their heads. The inability to compute change on the spot is a function of lack of practice not that they don't know how. I didn't do math of 20 years before returning to school but in 2 months the skills had all come back from essentially doing every problem in the calculus text (Leithold). However, I also have to stop and think what is "7X8" and "6X9" because many years ago, I was changing schools in the exact time frame that 7,8, & 9s came up on the "times table".

My attitude to Math is exactly the same as someone telling me they couldn't possibly learn to speak Chinese. WHAT is the problem? 1.2 Billion Chinese people plus others managed to learn how to speak Chinese. If you don't DEMAND children learn the 3Rs plus Computing, you get the American Teenager.

Math is ROTE AND DRILL. Like spellink and walkin. The more you do..the betta you git. The more algebra you do, the better and faster you get at it.

There is no such a thing as "I can't learn it" because it is math. Those who don't learn,,,,are victims of bad teachers whether they are related or not.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

This is racist crap. Algebra is a "white" subject. Peddle your honky BS somewhere else Dionne, you Liberal.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Charlie:

While I agree with you that there's no such thing as "I can't do it because it's math.", I disagree with much of the rest of what you said, particularly the rote and drill line. Math, in particular, is a subject that avails itself of MANY shortcuts and many teaching techniques.

If the "light doesn't go on", a student can't do ONE algebra problem, let alone all the ones in the book. Darryl was an example of a kid who'd been taught only one method and just "didn't get it." I could see the dullness in his eyes, so I tried another approach, then another, until I saw that dullness disappear. Once the "light went on", my job was, essentially done. I sat back and randomly dictated to him problems to put on the board. He went through each of them in a flash, eager for the next. He was having fun! He wasn't being "tortured" anymore.

Your comments remind me of the folks I met at Hardliner's picnic. These folks felt that kids today were "ruined" by Sesame Street, where learning was fun. They felt that learning shouldn't be fun. I say, "Bullshit" to that. In fact, in honor of you, I say, "BS cubed."

"Rote and drill" doesn't teach anyone to THINK. What do you know about numbers after memorizing the multiplication table?

Dang, I wish teachers made more money. I still want to teach, but it just won't pay my mom's rent.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

This article really rearranged my thinking.

I remember my first day in Algebra I. Mr Arndt put two problems on the board and asked us to solve them. He let us mumble a few minutes and then said, "THAT'S what you're going to learn this year." And I was hooked.

Algebra was where I learned I could figure out things. Remember those trains approaching each other? D=RT has to be one of the most useful things I've ever learned. I learned a different level of thinking beginning with Algebra.

Yes, CPR, it certainly does depend on the teacher. Our son had one glorious year with a third grade teacher who knew her class could learn to change number bases. They had a ball. But don't ask him to do percentages because the teacher for that didn't understand it herself.

Algebra as a 'gateway to better things'? Maybe.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

What businesses are banking on is that computers and calculators will become SO ubiquitous that they can handle everything, including Anita's $6.80 item that won't scan. In fact, in many fast food joints now, the cash registers have little pictures of the food items instead of text, just to make it easier.

I'm old fashioned. I think that kids should learn the multiplication tables, algebra, trignometry and all that stuff. The amazing thing to me is that we graduate kids, hand 'em diplomas and they STILL don't know this stuff. We've lowered the standards.

But it's also true that we pay teachers wages that a garbage collector might find insulting. I never have believed that just hurling money at a problem would fix it, but I'm also a realist: if we're going to have higher standards and teacher testing, we should pay those teachers who PASS more money.

Touching on what Anita said: I taught in business/industry for several years and I think I was pretty good at it. The key is to use illustrations and analogies. Make them understand what's going on, make it interesting (or dare I say, even FUN?) and they'll do better.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

I agree with much you say cpr. Rote and drill does play a big role in math. Learning the multiplication table is part of that. Its not everything at all, understanding the concepts, etc, is very important.

Anita, those tricks we all learned, ah, committed to memory. How did we retain the tricks in memory? By using those tricks repeatedly. Rote and drill, rote and drill, lol.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

I am not totally sure what he means by Algebra. I went to public high school nearly 40 years ago. Back then high school was a four year program. We started with two years of Algebra taken alongside of Geometry and Solid Geometry. Then we had two years of Calculus. During the last year we also had another semester of Advanced Algebra. Needed all of the Calculus to handle it. Then I had all of these various kinds of Algebra in college. So I don't know what he means by Algebra. Back then, we also had to take two years of Latin and a whole year devoted to Shake-a-spear.

I think that things have changed. For the better or not, I don't know.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

I might add a note. Years later when these things meant something to me, I talked to my two math high school teachers. They were both [while a football power this was a fairly small school] women [fairly young when I went to school]. Turns out that they both had BS and MS degrees in math and no degrees in education.

I am told that has changed. But I only have the generalized press reports to go by, so I don't really know.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Z:

I've taken enough Education courses to understand how important they are. It's not so much that Piaget, Erickson, Gould, etc. had great thoughts to impart as much as it is getting an educator to realize that everyone is different from the time they jump from the womb and that it's the goal to encourage a LOVE of learning.

Certainly, knowledge in the area taught is important, but it pales compared to the ability to impart that knowledge, or even the love of the subject that encouraged one to pursue the area. When YOU went to school, teachers were teachers because that's what they wanted to be. They loved their subjects of concentration and WANTED to pass on this information to others.

I can't imagine my daughter [who is more artistic and creative than math-oriented] being taught by someone like Charlie, who would mock her for being interested in liberal arts, or David, who couldn't stifle a mocking laugh at the end of every sentence. My second daughter and my son could get through such a class, but they'd come home and tell me about the assholes they have for teachers. In fact, they HAVE. They'd pull A's in the class, but it wasn't because the teacher taught. It was because they knew the material BEFORE the class was taught. Not every child is in this position, and THOSE are the ones that need REAL teachers.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Not racist.

Not elitist either.

There's a thing called "the theory of multiple intelligences", in which I'm a firm believer.

Said theory explains quite soundly why Albert Einstein couldn't tie his own shoelaces.

Everybody has their own talent.

I have no talent for sales; would have a hard time selling water to a dying man in the Sahara. But can do other things pretty well which have nothing to do with 2 college degrees.

My sister wasn't good at algebra. I was. Tried to tutor her in her 7th grade year, my 11th grade; but she just couldn't "Get It".

She still doesn't Get It.

But got her Masters in Social Work, and certification beyond that.

And is co-owner, with her husband, of one of the most successful counselling services in this town. Pulling in the big bucks. Algebra not needed.

I certainly think students should be challenged in difficult ways. Challenge spurs achievement.

But the cookie-cutter solution doesn't fit the variety of people who can be born (or adopted) even into one family.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

There's a thing called "the theory of multiple intelligences", in which I'm a firm believer.

That would be Gardner's (1993, 1998) theory. It's actually being implemented in the Key School in Indianapolis.

His theory included seven types of intelligence: verbal, mathematical, ability to spatially analyze the world, movement skills, insightful skills for analyzing ourselves, insightful skills for analyzing others, and musical skills.

Sternberg (1986) had a "triarchic theory", consisting of componential intelligence, which corresponds to what's commonly measured by intelligence tests, experiential intelligence, which corresponds to insightfulness and creative thinking, and contextual intelligence, which corresponds to practical know-how.

ALL the theories are interesting and give much insight into HOW people learn.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Anita:

I will have to take your word on the importance of education degrees in teaching. I have virtually no contact with high school students. I have been the finalist judge for the state science contest. Some really bright students. The last time I did this, the winner [a senior] was already first author on three papers in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. Of course I was only looking at the 10 best high school students in the state.

I seldom even see undergraduates. Just the ones that do undergraduate projects in my lab.These too are highly motivated. Nope, I generally don't see them until they are accepted into a PhD program. There has been a lot of selection before they get there.

I do have a lot of contact with journalism students [both broadcast and print]. Don't get me started on that subject.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

This sounds remarkably like the battle between Charles Spearman and L.L.Thurston back in the early 30's. Spearman (and his disciple Cyril Burt) believed in a general, innate single overriding intelligence, which emerged from their application of factor analysis. Thurston believed in lots of separate, distinct intelligences, which emerged from *his* application of factor analysis. Mathematically, either approach was equally justified, and indeed it could be argued that either conclusion was more a function of the set of tests administered than of the abilities those tests were intended to reflect. That is, an ability not tested for didn't show up!

Whether these tests were actually measuring anything has never been determined. While it's true that anything that exists can be measured, it's not true that anything that can be measured must exist. Statistical methods are guaranteed to produce artifacts, that's what they're for. Whether anything underlies those artifacts, statistics cannot tell us.

Yet Burt's contentions shaped the British school system in a way that has steered the lives of millions of children, while Thurstone's have done the same for American children. An interesting story, and very instructive.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Flint:

You said that While it's true that anything that exists can be measured,

I don't find that to be true. For example, one measures protein-protein interaction using a yeast two-hybrid system. Usually, this can't be done with transmembrane proteins. Indeed, I have serious doubts about the attempts that have been made with other techniques; and I have left out physics. Many things can be observed but not measured in a meaningful way.

If you disagree, enlighten me.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Z:

You're right, my phrasing was ambiguous. Sorry. What I meant to say was, in principle everything that exists is measurable. Which does not mean we have an accurate or effective means of measuring everything that exists right now. We probably never will, yet the principle won't change. I was trying to draw a contrast with our efforts to measure what may not exist in any meaningful way. These tests tend to reify hazy notions, since they produce results by their very nature.

So I can come up with a device to count the number of the invisible fairies that make the flowers grow. And my device might be guaranteed to come up with a number, but does that number really represent a count of fairies? Do the fairies really make the flowers grow? Absolutely! My device *measured* it!

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Too bad Anita learned math incorrectly and chose to pass on her "method". The filter for such people...... usually is "word problems". It is typically American to think that a few tricks to get through exams equate to knowledge of a subject. That is why most students get their Cs or worse in Calculus and do not continue on in Math after the 2 or 3 semesters required for their majors. "Calculus for Biologist" is a joke and "Calculus for Liberal Arts Majors (or "non- Science Majors") is even worse. Any banker who relies on log or ln tables or calculators without understanding of F(X**N) will never truly understand PIRT any more than a Chemist could understand PV=nRT without doing labs and measuring P and T or V. Algebra is the manipulation of symbols and as such is applied to Word Problems and NO TRICKS ARE GOING TO HELP YOU WITH WORD PROBLEMS. Knowing that "minimum distance" hints at first and second derivatives does little good unless you know what to plug in where AND WHY.

You do enough of them and you learn how to APPLY Algebra to *SOME* problems. Geometry is the graphical representation of 2 or 3 or more dimensions. Plane Geometry is the Geometry of the Plane (2 D) and Solid it 3-D. N D is the extension and dealt with in Topology when the "geometry of the curve" can be coupled with the Algebra used to describe the Calculus. Trig. is a sub-set of geometry and taught because it is most useful for simple tasks. Plane Geometry is Trig. mostly of the "Unit Circle" (the circle of radius Uno). Obviously for R > or < 1 the same set of equations can be used when scaled. WHAT **IDIOT** WROTE THIS?? "ALGEBRA" WAS INVENTED IN THE MIDDLE EAST BY SEMITES (non-Jewisy variety).

This is racist crap. Algebra is a "white" subject. Peddle your honky BS somewhere else Dionne, you Liberal. -- (LeonTrotsky@PatriceLumumba.U), March 06, 2001. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------


-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

CPR:

Yeah, it has been a long time since high school. I forgot the semester of trig and the semester of vector analysis. Are they still required to take this stuff? Maybe Anita knows.

Cheers,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

What assinine pontification as usual from Anita. IF students DON"T KNOW ANYTHING or very little, how can they "love learning"?? Even if by some Teachers Union Osmosis system, what good does it do if they can't read, write and calculate? That is the typical Leftist Bull Manure from the Teachers' Union Socialists. Students must have an "experience" so they will be able to "function with their peers". The idea of graduating future BOSSES is not in the Leftists Hog Wash. Take that out of the schools, add some serious DISCIPLINE, put in place Metrics and the students will perform and develop their OWN "love of learning". Otherwise, they will only know enough to "pass the finals". The first two years of College are the "bust out years". Even well prepared freshmen who get Bs in the First year, run into a wall if they don't do the work in the 2nd year. By the Junior year, most know what "is expected" and do it. The reason the schools are so bad below college level is a combination of Spoiled parents, spoiled brats and teachers who DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TEACHING. Private and parochial schools routinely outperform public schools because they don't have to tolerate the Teachers Unions or the Parents either no matter how much they donate to the endowments or "Bishop's Fund". American Public School teachers are now the dredges of the teaching "profession" vs. what they were before the Liberals WATERED the requirements. And if Jaime Escalante could get kids in the L.A. hoods/Barrio to learn and get college credit there is NO EXCUSE, none, nada for the White Burbs failure to perform. Teacher's Union "members" (I hesitate to call them teachers).... spent so much time learing how to prepare "lesson plans" and taking MEAT BALL COURSES IN "Methodology" they simply do not know their subjects. The Masters for Math for a teacher where I got mine enables the student to take FRESHMEN COURSES disguised as 500 and 600 level courses. Even the text books are the same. Anyone who has ever seen the first year Calculus books in England or Germany (I own over 50 Calc. books including a German Text that blows Leithold and Tom Apostol's very good texts away. BTW, I audited a semester with Leithold when he came East to revise his text. I can assure you he knows The Calculus and can teach because he does know it. I doubt he would know how to fill out a lesson plan because he simply put a chapter section a day on the black board from memory. Still the German and English text were better and I have the Head of the Math Dept. at Stony Brook's evaluation of that to back me. I loaned the 2 texts to him. ) Math is math. HS are supposed to get students to the level they can "calculate". People who believe the horse shit that they don't have to "know" and teachers are there to inculcate a "love of learning" instead of LEARNING THE SUBJECT have given tenure to INCOMPETANTS who do not prepare students for the real world.

Motorola had to teach most HS "graduates" they took in on their factory lines how to read, write and do arithematic thanks to the SOCIALISTS in the teachers ranks who didn't think PROFICENCY IN SUBJECT MATTER WAS AS IMPORTANT AS "getting along with your peers". As a result we have one of the more ILLITERATE WORK FORCES in the so- called "Advanced societies" of the world. We have Principals with Ph.Ds in so=called "Education" or "Education Methodology" at the k-6 school- level and people with Masters degrees teaching Math who can't spell and English Teachers with Masters Degrees who can ADD.

Anita runs her big mouth suggesting that I abhor the Arts when I play Classical Piano and read Shakespeare. I can introduce you to English Teachers who have never read and certainly NEVER UNDERSTOOD either Emerson or Jefferson. By

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Z:

I forgot the semester of trig and the semester of vector analysis. Are they still required to take this stuff? Maybe Anita knows.

They haven't been REQUIRED for many years now. The school system [going back to even when *I* was in high school] began following a program that most associate with the Russian system in that they will only allow a student to take the next class in a subject if they've been successful in the previous class. Standardized test results are ALSO used for placement. It's a pity, really, as many students who grasp Algebra easily have trouble with Geometry [and vice-versa] and are shut out from moving on in mathematics.

Some high schools don't even offer classes in mathematics beyond a certain level. My son took a bus to the local college from his high school to study mathematics beyond the level his high school offered. This was not forced on him. His high school offered it to him, and he WANTED it.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Absurd. You can't move on in Math after algebra without geometry.

Both are required for Calculus or the students can't possibly ever understand what is going on. Newton did "Mathematica" in GEOMETRY.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

That is "Principia Mathematica".

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Absurd. You can't move on in Math after algebra without geometry.

I never said one could. My point was simply that some students who do poorly in Algebra do much better in Geometry [and vice-versa.] The pity is that students who do poorly in Algebra aren't even allowed to take Geometry, OR that students who do well in Algebra and do less well in Geometry aren't allowed to move on in mathematics.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Anita and CPR,

Having taught high school graduates how to become electronics technicians in industry, I roughly split the middle.

First, let's take the two extremes of the argument: that (a), someone who has a degree in Education is the only person qualified to teach or (b) only someone who has a degree in the subject matter in question is qualified to teach.

Neither absolute is correct in my book; I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Under the "b" heading, we've all met someone who is an absolute genius in a particular specialty, but is incapable of teaching a 6 year old how to tie a shoe.

But I would maintain that there are also teachers under the "a" heading who have spent their lives in education, who have attended all the tre chic workshops and who have even written doctoral dissertations on instilling that "love for learning" in kids, but who are dunderheads in their subjects. They think that having a course syllabus and outline is enough to prepare them to teach a subject with which they are otherwise unfamiliar. Wrong!

I've been a student and have suffered (greatly) under the latter type of teacher. One lady from my high school comes to mind; she had all sorts of education degrees and certifications, but was a disaster at teaching chemistry because she her entire knowledge of chemistry came from the course materials.

This lady had enthusiasm. She was sweet and caring. She loved doing experiments with us kids. And none of us learned a blamed thing from her, because -- watch this, now! -- if you really "love" to learn, you're going to ask questions.

If the teacher is unable to answer them or (at the LEAST) to offer useful assistance for the student to FIND the answer elsewhere, the bright kids in the class are going to get frustrated. They're also not going to learn very much.

The proof is in the pudding: most American teenagers can't even name the capitols of their *OWN* state (much less all 50) or name the President and Vice President (much less the leaders of Congress). This alone indicates to me that there's something fundamentally wrong with the approach being used in our public school system.

In a perfect world, all of our teachers would be both "a" *and* "b", but we don't pay them enough now. That's not very likely.

What I would choose, as a compromise, is someone who, say, majored in the subject at hand, with a minor in education. I *do* give the emphasis to the former, rather than the latter.

I also agree that the emphasis should be on the fundamentals -- the "three R's," if you will -- first and foremost. Until students have those down pat, the rest is just fluff and a waste of time.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Stephen:

I've found the standards higher these days in the Education area than when I got my B.S. in Computer Science years ago. I think I only needed 24 hours of Computer Science classes in 1981 to graduate with a degree in that field. Well, one STILL only needs 24 hours of Computer Science classes to TEACH computer science, but one needs IN ADDITION something like 36 hours of education classes. Other subjects require MORE hours, depending on whether one is specializing in ONE area of teaching or multiple areas. Those same education hours are still there, however. Certification to teach cannot be obtained without the education classes, so it doesn't really matter whether they're important or not. They're REQUIRED.

I'd met many students at UTA who were going for elementary education certification and they STILL were fulfilling requirements in a particular discipline. I don't think there is such a thing anymore as a teacher who has ONLY taken child-development and education classes beyond the pre-school level.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

I cleaned off my desk [somewhat] today, so I have some answers readily available.

Secondary teaching fields: [single fields] Art: 42 semester hours. Biology: 36-37 hours. Chemistry: 41 hours. Earth Science: 40 hours. Economics: 36 hours. English: 36 hours. Government: 36 hours. History: 36 hours. Mathematics: 36 hours. PE: 36 hours. Physical Science: 36-38 hours.

If one plans on teaching in multiple disciplines, the requirements for each are lower, because one is required to fulfill the requirements of TWO or MORE colleges of the University. For instance: Biology: 28 hours. Chemistry: 32 hours, Computer Science: 24 hours, Earth Science: 32 hours, Economics: 24 hours. English: 24 hours. Foreign Language: Looks like French, German, Russian, and Spanish all require 26 hours. Geography: 24 hours. Government: 24 hours. Health: 24 hours History: 24 hours. Journalism: 30 hours. Life-Earth Science: 34 hours. Mathematics: 24 hours. PE: 27 hours. Physical Science: 26 hours. Physics: 24 hours. Psychology: 27 hours. Reading: 24 hours. Sociology: 24 hours. Speech Communication: 30 hours. Theatre Arts: 30 hours.

There are also all-level teaching fields in which one can enroll.

ALSO, [at least here in Texas], one must pass an Ex-Cet test in the field of concentration in order to teach it. This test includes both exams in all fields of concentration in which one desires to teach, as well as exams on the theories of education presented in those education classes. Certification cannot be obtained without passing these tests.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Dang...I keep forgetting things. In addition, XX of those hours MUST be in advanced classes.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

THIS IS AN "ADVANCE"?? TAKING A FEW MORE HOURS IN ONE'S SUBJECT VS......THE EXPLOSION OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE FIELDS??...... THE NUMBER OF HOURS FOR COMPUTER SCIENCE SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST **TRIPLED** IN THOSE YEARS GIVEN THE EXPLOSION OF KNOWLEDGE. BIOLOGY IS **TEN X** (MIN.) OVER JUST 20 YEARS AGO AND THE KNOWLEDGE BASE IS EXPANDING EXPONENTIALLY.

DO HS PHYSICS TEACHERS TEACH QUANTUM INSTEAD OF THE "ATOMS ARE LIKE LITTLE SOLAR SYSTEMS WITH THE ELECTRONS SPINNING AROUND THE SUN" MODEL?

TEACHERS MAKE THE ASSUMPTION THAT ONCE THEY HAVE THEIR MASTERS AND **TENURE** THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO "KEEP UP" IN THEIR FIELD. THAT IS ***EXACTLY** WHY WE ARE IN THE EDUCATIONAL MOR_ASS WE ARE IN.

WE HAVE ***LOWERED** THE DEMANDS ON THE TEACHERS NOT **INCREASED THEM**

I've found the standards higher these days in the Education area than when I got my B.S. in Computer Science years ago. I think I only needed 24 hours of Computer Science classes in 1981 to graduate with a degree in that field. Well, one STILL only needs 24 hours of Computer Science classes to TEACH computer science, but one needs IN ADDITION something like 36 hours of education classes

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

DOES **ANYONE**....ANYONE AT ALL...EVER..."FAIL" A COURSE IN "EDUCATION"?? THIS ABOVE IS TRULY A GENIUS OF A STATEMENT. THE COURSES IN EDUCATION ARE REQUIRED TO BE A TEACHER?? SO WHAT??

THIS IS ....... TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO THE FACT....THAT SINCE THE 1950s, "EDUCATION COURSES" WERE THE COURSES THAT **ATHELETES TOOK** AS "GUT COURSES" BECAUSE THEY WERE KNOWN TO BE "SHOW UP AND GET YOUR *C* ALONG WITH THE P.E. COURSES. JIMMY BROWN THE GREAT FULLBACK, SUED SYRACUSE BECAUSE HE SPENT FOUR YEARS THERE TAKING SUCH COURSES AND IN THE END COULD BARELY READ. Syracuse defended itself by pointing out that they did not give the man who put Syracuse Football on the map a degree.

DOES THE TERM "BEAN BAG COURSES" RING A BELL? Those same education hours are still there, however. Certification to teach cannot be obtained without the education classes, so it doesn't really matter whether they're important or not. They're REQUIRED

THOSE "ED" COURSES ....."REQUIRED".......ARE THE LEGACY OF THE TEACHERS UNION AND DOES NOTHING TO NEGATE MY STATEMENTS THAT ..........AMERICAN TEACHERS MAY KNOW HOW TO TEACH BUT *******NOW MEMORIZE THIS: *****

DON'T KNOW THEIR SUBJECT WELL ENOUGH TO "TEACH IT".......... AND THE "SLIPPAGE" AGAINST THE REST OF THE WORLD IS KNOWN, QUANTITATED, STUDIED AND PARENTS DEMAND BETTER.

BUSINESSES LIKE MOTOROLA NOT ONLY DEMAND BETTER, THEY FUND IT FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES. IN EUROPE, JAPAN, TAIWAN AND SOON ALL OF CHINA, THE "CRAFTSMEN" OR "TRADESMEN" GO TO THE SAME SCHOOLS AS THOSE WHO GO ONTO THE UNIVERSITIES.

THEY CAN'T GET TO THE TRADES SCHOOLS......UNLESS THEY CAN READ, WRITE AND CALCULATE (AND NOW COMPUTE).

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

TO ADD ONE LAST NOTE TO THIS WASTE OF TIME......THE ONE CRITICAL ELEMENT MISSING IN PRE-COLLEGE EDUCATION IS.........***QUALITY CONTROL**.

AND UNTIL THE "TEACHERS UNIONS" AND ESPECIALLY THE STATE MANDATED "ADMINISTRATORS" AND THEIR STAFFS,,,,,,,,ARE PUT IN THEIR PLACES (WHICH FOR ME WOULD BE .......OUT OF THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS COMPLETELY).......THE ABILITY TO IMPOSE ........ANY FORM OF SERIOUS QUALITY CONTROL IN THE QC/QA SENSE......WOULD BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.

QC/QA WITH FAR STERNER DISCIPLINE WOULD TURN MOST OF THE SCHOLASTIC DEFICITS AROUND AND VERY FAST.

THE RULES SHOULD BE "........NO PASS....NO PLAY...AND NO (EVER) AUTOMATIC GRADE ADVANCE. THAT WOULD PREVENT THE 14 YEAR OLD SOPHOMORES WHO CAN'T READ OR WRITE OR ADD. THEY WOULD STILL BE 14 BUT THEY WOULD BE BACK IN 6th GRADE UNTIL......THEY PASSED.

IN EUROPE, THE TEACHERS KNOW THEY MUST..........MUST......PRODUCE..A QUALITY PRODUCT OR ELSE. HERE, 12 YEARS OF PAID BABY SITTING SUFFICES.

AMERICAN CHILDREN .......CAN....GET A GOOD EDUCATION IN SOME (FEW) SCHOOLS BUT INVARIABLY, IT IS THE PARENTS AND THE STUDENTS THEMSELVES THAT LEARN HOW TO LEARN BY THEMSELVES.

I HAD A VERY GOOD VIEW OF THE "PRODUCTS" IN THE YEARS I SPENT AT STONY BROOK (ALMOST 10 YEARS OF TAKING CLASSES THERE). MOST OF THE FRESHMEN HAD TO WORK 40-80 HRS. A WEEK TO "CATCH UP" TO THE LEVEL WHERE THEY COULD SURVIVE. THERE WERE **NO** WEEKEND PARTIES OR DANCES. LIBRARIES WERE FILLED ON WEEKENDS. "PARTY TIME" AT STONY BROOK WAS AN HOUR FOR BEER USUALLY ABOUT 10-11 PM ON A THURSDAY NIGHT.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

I saw something on television last night that was really surprising. We all know about the grade inflation going on in High Schools. Well, it is happening at the University level also. In 1969 Harvard gave 75% C's and 25% A's.......now they give 75% A's and 25% C's. One professor offers two grades: the one earned and the one that will go on the transcript.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

Pam, the grade inflation thing at Harvard is rather complex. Except in the physical sciences and biology, many tracks lead to the "gentlement's C" and that is no different across Academia. But employers are looking for the As and Bs who "excel" and they can factor out the grade inflation with their own testing.

Trust me, no kid at Harvard, looking to make friends and influence people for his "network" in the future, is going to "coast". Harvard is about its student body coupled with exceptional staff and facilities. The student body is the cream coupled with the usual "legacies" (children of grads) and those whose parents make a "suitable" donation.

A lot of colleges are getting rid of the grade system. The bottom line for the students, grad schools and future employers comes comes at GRE and LSAT time. Later, employer "reviews" and evaluations,,,,,cuts out the BS Artists of the "gentleman's C".

A TOTALLY GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE CHOKE HOLD OF THE NEA/TEACHERS' UNION "MENTALITY" with PORK BARRELL JOB PROTECTION AT THE FOREFRONT AS USUAL IN THE SCHOOLS:

In Los Angeles on Friday, California Gov. Gray Davis, who was en route to attend one service, stopped briefly at a teachers' union meeting to speak about the disturbing incident.

Davis suggested that schools install metal detectors and that teachers "give more of themselves" to troubled students.

"Very few of us would want to be on a flight knowing all the (passengers) hadn't been through the metal detectors. If it were up to me I would put metal detectors in the schools," Davis said.

He added that teachers should "find ways to be better listeners" and think about implementing more anger management, mentoring and career counseling programs.

Davis's comments were greeted mostly with silence from 200 educators who earlier in the day had lamented limited resources for schools and teachers.

CALIFORNIA SCHOOLS......SHORT OF MONEY?? IN A UPPER MIDDLE BURB??

Mary Bergan, president of the California Federation of Teachers, told Reuters that most teachers believed school metal detectors were not the answer to school violence.

First, she said, they are costly, and it's unrealistic to expect schools with multiple entrances to install detectors at all of them. Secondly, a prison-like atmosphere is not conducive to learning, she said.

NOPE BUT .....STUDENT UNIFORMS AND A SINGLE(or fewer) ENTRANCE /EXITS MIGHT LESSEN THE CHANCE THAT WEAPONS ......DRUGS..OR OUTSIDE (NON-STUDENTS) WOULD BE IN THE FACILITIES.

A better suggestion, one favored among teachers, she said, would be to build smaller schools where teachers could develop deeper relationships with students. In the short term, she said, schools could look at reorganizing their structures so they offered small cluster programs, or "schools within schools."

SOUNDS LIKE CONGRESS IN THE 1960S. SPEND AND TAX THEN SPEND MORE....."ITS FOR THE CHILDREN" AND THE POLS LEAP ON IT.

ISN'T.........HOME ROOM COMPETITION ........A FAR CHEAPER AND COST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION? BETTER YET......."SCHOOL OF CHOICE" OR VOUCHERS SO PARENTS CAN GET THEIR KIDS OUT OF THE "BAD SCHOOLS" IN THE DISTRICTS.......SO THEY CAN BE ISOLATED AND REMEDIATED.

"I point out that both Columbine and Santana are huge campuses. We'd like to see more human size where adults know all the kids. I'd keep high school populations to 1,000 or under. Preferably under," she said.

Bergan added that schools also need more trained counselors, and that teachers should not be expected to double as counselors.

SO...WHAT WERE ALL THE "TEACHER'S ED" COURSE FOR IF NOT TO LEARN HOW TO WORK WITH THE KIDS??

GOD FORBID ........ANYTHING EVER.....BE ADDED TO THE "JOB DESCRIPTION". NO......the "doubling as counselors" would lead to job cuts for the Teachers' Union members WOULDN"T IT. BS CUBED.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

WHAT **IDIOT** WROTE THIS?? "ALGEBRA" WAS INVENTED IN THE MIDDLE EAST BY SEMITES (non-Jewisy variety).

This is racist crap. Algebra is a "white" subject. Peddle your honky BS somewhere else Dionne, you Liberal. -- (LeonTrotsky@PatriceLumumba.U), March 06, 2001. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Creepster,

Are you saying that non-jewish semites, ie arabs, are not "white" people?

Algebra has no relevance to the African-American experience.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

Teacher's Union? Yep they be the CAUSE Mr. Reuben. Now with that agreed, can we agree to ditch the obvious crap teachers are underpaid? How can they be underpaid with a Union that strong and powerful? go figure, use Algebra if you think it might help ya.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

Anita:

Ok; now let me ask you a question. When I went to high school, it started at 8:00 am and ended at 5:00 pm. That was eight 1 hr classes a day [plus lunch]. Since I played varsity sports [football and track or baseball], I didn't take gym. I had 8 different classes each day.

Do they still have this same schedule? I don't know but it seems that they don't spend 8 hours in classes. You can't have all of these technical classes and still devote time to the arts and shorten the day.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2001

Underpaid? In Nassau and Suffolk Cty, NYC, the average salary for a tenured teacher was $42,000 with ALL perks estimated to be an additional $20K. Newsday identified the highest paid teacher to be one Middle School teacher who was also the "Chair" of that schools Music Dept. She raked in $73,000 plus perks.

It should hardly be necessary to note those sums are paid for Sept. to June work hours with ALL holidays, intersession and Christmas and Spring Breaks included or another MONTH of paid days.

Now before anyone rants and raves about the salaries, CONSIDER THE QUALITY OF THE PRODUCT THEY PRODUCE after 50 years of the same Salary Demands with the above FEATHER BEDDING.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2001

Add: those numbers above were for the year 1987 and Newsday noted that SCHOOL POPULATIONS WERE DECLINING. Newsday uncovered one little bit of what I considered to be scandal. In one of the most affluent and stagnant districts, new buildings were going up at the very same time that the district was trying to excess several schools which were shut down. When asked why they were building, some "official" said, "because we could get the money from Washington and Albany". SO MUCH FOR the so called imperatives.

For weeks, Newsday ran articles on "the challenges ahead for Long Island". Coupled with the Shoreham decision forcing 25cent KWs for electricity for business and the already aging population, I decided to get out while the getting was good. LI like NYC has recovered from the crash of the early 1990s but neither will ever be in major growth modes again.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2001

Last but not least, the teachers' salaries issues is a RED HERRING. Private and Parochial schools are notorious for paying less than the public schools and yet I defy anyone to explain how they routinely produce a BETTER QUALITY FINISHED PRODUCT.

The public school system is BAD, Corrupt and needs total overhaul which should be done as much as possible at the local level (and not in the way that Kansas tried by Edicting Evolution out of the schools).

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2001

Z:

The average day is 7 hours at school, but this day is determined by local Boards of Education and only apply to public schools. Each class is, typically, 50 minutes long [allowing students 10 minutes to go to their lockers, exchange books, and travel the stairs and halls to their next class.]

The nation-wide trend has been to cut first the programs that involve art, music, and physical education [If a particular school has a winning sports team, the physical education program is cut last, but if they have an outstanding music program [meaning one that has received national recognition and one that has engaged in local events continuously], IT is cut last.] It all depends on the locale and what the populace considers more important.

SOME high-schools [including one where I was offered a job before I learned that I couldn't complete the certification requirements in time] reserve TWO class hours for the study of mathematics, back-to- back. The principal told me that the students were more successful after they implemented that change. This was in Texas, and math teachers here have a set curriculum with the goal of passing the TASP. The same holds true in other states that have these tests. If one's students don't pass the test, the teacher is fired and the school receives less state funding. English teachers are under the same constraints. One is given a curriculum designed to "teach to the test."

The education classes that I've taken include some that I took in Illinois when I thought I'd like to teach elementary school because the kids I taught at the Junior College there seemed to lack logic skills. This was done at the Master's level at St. Xavier University in Chicago. I took classes in teaching science and teaching math at the elementary level. I learned a lot in both, and was required to student-teach once/week at a local elementary school where the current teacher evaluated my work. I think others were philosophy of education and history of education, wherein I learned what methods had been implemented in previous years and what methods seemed more successful than others. Required EVERYWHERE is "Human Growth and Development", which I ALSO took in Illinois.

These previous courses didn't apply in Texas because they were over five years past [not to mention that primary classes wouldn't apply for someone now seeking secondary creditation.] Let's see...outside of the Biology and Math courses, I took 6 hours in Education. This involved three classes. One was "Technology in Education". It taught non-computer professionals how to use Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc., and provided exercises in each. In addition, one had to know the meanings of all the terms used in computer technology. What is a byte? What is a kilobyte? How many bytes are used in an English word, what measures speed, etc. Yeah...it was easy for me. I had the computer background. The second class I took here was "Introduction to Teaching." I'd taken the equivalent of this in Illinois also, but it wasn't honored due to the five-year rule. This was only a 1-hour class, with the "Education in Technology" class only a 2-hour class, the both of them combined to make one standard three-hour class. Here we learned just how political education has become...for WHATEVER reason. We learned that the curriculum would be provided for us to "teach to the TASP", we learned that we could NOT suggest that a particular child be referred for behavioral disorders or remedial disorders unless we completely documented each and every instance that indicated these may be useful and offer up that documentation to the appropriate parties. We also learned that no matter HOW frustrated we got, we couldn't cry. [I know it sounds silly.] The third class was AGAIN "Human Growth and Development." THAT was a 3-hour class, and YES, some people failed it, as some also failed "Technology in Education." I'm not sure about it anymore, but I think one must maintain at least a 2.75 average in education classes to continue on in the program at UTA.

I don't know what the teacher's union has done or is doing. I refused to join the teacher's union when I taught computer science in Illinois. I, pretty much, jumped out of the womb with "non-union" stamped on my butt after the AFL-CIO tried to kill my dad for not joining. I know that the teacher's union is opposed to "teaching to the TASP", and I agree with that. I know that the teacher's union is opposed to renewal of certification every five years, and I AGREE with that. In Illinois, teachers must take at least two courses each year to keep up in their field. I never got so far as to check out the Texas requirements in this, but how would one expect to pass the ExCet again every five years if one didn't?

Regarding the New York teacher's salaries, they're paid 133% of the national average, although that average is knocked down once one considers the cost of living in NY versus the rest of the nation.

Regarding the private schools versus the public schools, private schools have entrance requirements, while public schools must BY LAW accept EVERYONE. Private schools may also simply dismiss [kick out] unruly students, where public schools must give them another chance. We talked about this one on another thread.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2001

I'm sorry. I was unclear in my last post. I agree that teachers shouldn't be required to teach to the TASP, and I agree that teachers should be re-tested every five years to determine if they've kept up in their fields. Is that more clear?

While I'm here again, however, I'll add another thought. Having taught before, I realize that my work day STARTS after the class day ENDS. Teachers must be at the workplace about an hour before the students are scheduled, and they're not allowed to leave until about an hour after the students leave. THEN, we come home, grade papers, create lesson plans, fill out all the bullshit forms required by the administration, and [hopefully], we'll have the time and interest to attend the local functions to show our interest in what the students do off-hours, call the parents who didn't respond to our calls during the day, etc.

I can work an 8-hour day as an Executive Secretary here in Texas and make $39,000 compared to the $33,000 I'd make as a high-school teacher here, and I wouldn't be required to take 6 hours in the "Texas Constitution" or 6 hours in "Texas history" to qualify. [I forgot to mention those previously as pre-requisites to certification.]

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2001