Been awhile since I've seen a good fight around here so thought I'd try to start one. This one's for you Anita.

Havn't been unemployed since age 17 and have paid Fed taxes each of the last 40 years. Mailbox hasn't coughed a government check yet. Makes me wonder who's the slave and how much more I still might owe. Also: would I get prorated since my parents didn't emigrate until 1947?

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

Answers

Phrased that badly. Question not meant for Anita. We've differed on my view of racial issues regarding politics and that's all. My bad.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

I'm not opposed to discussing anything you offer, Carlos. I live with a biracial man, so I have a little more input to the black community than some other white folks. I saw the "reparations" thing laughed off years ago. Is there something new afoot of which I'm unaware?

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

Probably not Anita. Just trying a little pot stiring and started off badly.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

Well...dang, Carlos.

Here I am in a position to present both sides and you take the ball and go home. [sigh]

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

Not too surprised this kind of subject didn't draw a crowd as it never does. Normally my board efforts are the one liner type (always prefered poetry to prose) but this one's gonna take a moment.

I think race relations are the number one challenge for our country. There are lots of external threats but they pale compared with the damage we do to each other. Most people ignore the subject but I don't. It simmers beneath the veneer of civility and is rarely discussed except between those likeminded and that's dumb. Better to be an antiracist activist and thrust the subject to the front and if being provacative helps force the issue then so be it. Racists talk about this stuff all the time but the rest of us don't. They set the agenda on the subject and we shouldn't let 'em. All camps have good potshotters and the rest of us cringe, fade and go mow the grass.

White liberals really piss me on this one. For the most part they wrap so quickly and tight in any flag labeled equality they don't have time to read the label and don't care. Ah, the warm comfort of moral superiority and such a waste of good intentions. Still, it beats really thinking about it since they just don't have the time.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

Well, I'm a white liberal and we talk about this stuff around here all the time. As I already said, I live with a biracial [might as well go ahead and call him black, since it only takes one drop to qualify] guy. He's a liberal, too, so we agree on many things, but disagree on many things, as well.

In the 13 years that we've lived together, I've not heard any complaints about equality from him or his family except maybe a comment or two about how golf tournaments had to be moved because Tiger Woods wasn't allowed to play at the original place. Things like this point out that racism still exists, but we don't see it in our lives.

Well, maybe I take that back. My daughter worked at Boston Market once and had a black manager. A new employee, Elaine, was hired and spent the entire day on the phone. Elaine was black, had a gold tooth [I've NEVER understood the fascination with gold teeth] and one day told the manager that my daughter had called him a Nigger. I think the guy's name was Clarence, and he called my daughter in to "discuss" what Elaine had said. My daughter has learned a bit of discretion in speech since that year, but at the time she was angered beyond belief at this accusation and minced no words in so stating. "Excuse me? My mom has lived with a black guy since I was a little girl. I have NEVER IN MY LIFE used the word Nigger." "Then why did Elaine say you did?" "You'd have to ask Elaine to learn the answer to that." Clarence paid more attention after that, and Elaine was fired the next week. Of course a few months later, Clarence, himself was fired for sex discrimination.

We're not sure what happened to Clarence. He was a nice manager and seemed "normal". Then, one day, I got a call from my daughter who said that Clarence had made comments on her sexy hair. Her hair is even longer than mine, although thicker, healthier, etc. She said, "I can't believe that Clarence said this to me today. Do you think I should file a discrimination suit against him?" I said, "No. You've worked with Clarence for quite some time and I don't know what led him to make the comment, but don't try and ruin his life over it." Well, Clarence apparently told ANOTHER girl that she could have her paycheck only after she gave him a kiss. THIS girl reported him, and corporate Boston Market came in and interviewed ALL the employees.

The bottom-line seems to be that there's a shaker full of nuts in the world and it doesn't really matter whether they're black, white, mixed, Asian, Hispanic, etc. If we live long enough, and are in the wrong place at the wrong time, we're bound to be effected by one of them.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2001

I thought you wanted to discuss "reparations", but I'll go with the subject-of-the-moment.

I have to completely disagree with this one, Carlos: "White liberals really piss me on this one. For the most part they wrap so quickly and tight in any flag labeled equality they don't have time to read the label and don't care. Ah, the warm comfort of moral superiority and such a waste of good intentions. Still, it beats really thinking about it since they just don't have the time."

A rather sweeping statement to make, but I understand why you made it. (BTW, the paragraphs that preceded that one were absolutely on- target; very well said.) There are some (many?) "white liberals" who DO feel superior. One can usually spot them a mile away. Funny thing is that many of them are of the "upper class"; I'm guessing a lot of "new money" in that crowd. Kind of amusing, in a way. They were practically born to believe they are morally superior in every way.

I guess these are the ones you "see" most often; much like what I think of the right: the most vocal ones are the ones on which you base your opinion. A human failing, I suppose.

But when you get down to the "real people", the "true liberals", not the "just-for-show" or "because it's trendy" liberals, these people genuinely believe everyone is equal. They don't feel themselves superior to anyone for any reason. But they don't get the "airplay" that the holier-than-thou crowd (on either side) gets; they aren't "newsworthy".

I just have to make this observation. You talk about others claiming to be "morally superior", but please go back and re-read your original post to this thread. Seems to me the fact that you've never received a government check makes you feel "morally superior" to those who have. Sorry if I misunderstood, but that's how it reads to me.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

You've covered a couple of subjects here. Larry & Lee came over tonite to watch Holyfield get whipped by Ruiz. Larry & Lee are neighbors and are "black". Joe my Mexican neighbor couldn't make because he was busy gettin laid. Mark, my anglo neighbor, didn't show probably because he was drunk. Arnie, my jewish neighbor, had synagogue work to do and couldn't make it either. Too bad for them as it was the best heavyweight fight I've seen in quite a while.

Sorry for your daughters' experience but having met you I can assume she isn't unattractive. Certain you'll teach her how to handle unwanted advances as have mothers over the ages.

The race deal is top shelf for me and am sure that that's shown however badly. Still, talking at home isn't enough. Talking at home is what father did but he bailed from Germany in '36. Maybe I'm trying to make that up and don't know it. I do know this; if you talk around the edges and be polite no one pays attention. If you talk about the easy stuff no one pays attention. If you make a point of the absurd your chances rise. And lastly, if it's worth your time just go fuck with 'em and get 'em to think about it.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

Trish,

Well to do liberals don't worry here because there aren't enough of them to matter. "restitution & govt checks" was bait illustrating the extremes looking for a bite from either. Sorry.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

There is no reason for restitution. This discussion was on the radio the other day while I was driving. Someone suggested that we go back and find out who the slave owners were, who their slaves were and pay restitution to the second or third generation slave family members, as they were directly effected by slavery.

There is no justifification for black people today to get restitution for something they were not effected by, paid by people who had nothing to do with enslaving them.

I think the liberal actions of the past 30 years have more then compensated for the conditions that existed before the civil rights movements. Segrigations and jim crow were removed, affirmitive action, quota's etc were pretty effective in most places (outside of the "old south") and people of ability and the drive had doors open to them and took advantage of it to make good lives for themselves. Quota's have served their putpose and are not justified in todays society, affirmitive action still has a place. The people growing up and who are young adults today did not have to live with the extremes of segrigation that existed 35 years ago so there is no justification for programs to counter act it. The playing field has levaled out for the most part. There is still bigotry and areas that need improvement, but socially, those who participate in bigitry are the ones who are social outcasts, looked down upon as the people with a problem.

I don't think restitution is necessary. Those who had not been allowed to persue education and carriers because of discrimination were given a the means to live and help to survive. As time and society changed, the barriers were removed and it is not necessary for anyone to be supported by society unless they have a valid reason (not excuse).

There are longer legeslated discrimination laws preventing any person from persueing a fullfilling life. Yes there are still problems, there are still "stupid people" (as I explain to my kids) who are bigots, but they are a dying breed. Any attempt at restitution for blacks because of slavery would do more harm then good. It would more cause division of the races, the same way that (unnecessary) quota's do today.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

Does this fix the unclosed tag problem?

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

New York Daily News 3/5/01

The U.S. Owes Blacks Back Pay

Randall Robinson says African-Americans were given February for Black History Month because it has the fewest days. Actually, it was chosen because it's the birth month of Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, but the line got Randall a good laugh at Barnes & Noble in the Bronx. He was there to flog his book, "The Debt," which calls for reparations to slaves' descendants.

Robinson is a lobbyist who helped construct and lead the American boycott of South Africa during apartheid. He is confident, with a rueful sense of humor. Despite his apparently militant demand, he comes across more Bill Cosby than Malcolm X. He wasn't talking to white folks — mine was practically the only white face in the crowd — but he gave the sort of reasonable speech that wouldn't upset the average Republican county chairman.

This is a matter not just of style, but of substance. Robinson touched only briefly and halfheartedly on the economic debt owed by the government to black America. The self-esteem that comes through memory and identity was his real theme. He told the audience slavery robbed American blacks of their history, and that a people without a historical consciousness can never be whole.

Black History Month was dominated this year by talk of recompense. On Feb. 1, the first National Reparations Convention began in Chicago; two weeks later, a conference was held at Fisk University in Nashville. At both, Robinsonian moderation ruled. In the words of Theeda Murphy of Fisk's Race Relations Institute, "Healing is much more important than the money."

Robinson and his followers have yet to come to terms with the fact that reparations — and respect — are about money. Black America is relatively bereft of capital because of its penniless departure from slavery. The descendants have back pay coming. But they won't collect it until it's quantified and presented as a bill. How much is owed? It will surely be in the trillions. But a debt is a debt.

Of course there are hard questions about eligibility and the payment. But they are not beyond solution. Reparations could come in the form of free tuition for a generation, a superfund for home ownership or low-interest business capital. Scientists are already working on identifying the descendants of African slaves via DNA.

The time for answers may be near. Last week an Oklahoma commission declared the survivors and descendants of a 1921 Tulsa pogrom — in which at least 40 blacks were killed — worthy of reparations. Authorities are offering an apology, a token payment and a nice monument. That could happen if the reparations people aren't serious.

But if they are, Tulsa could become the Birmingham of a new, capitalist phase of the civil rights struggle. And African-Americans could finally get themselves a month that has more than 28 days.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

There ya go, Carlos. It seems this IS back in the news. IMO, it'll fade, just like the last time, and I think it SHOULD fade, just like the last time.

I'm a first generation born-in-America type, so I'm quite familiar with my roots. Even if genetic testing could identify folks of African descent, there's nothing at this point to indicate that their forefathers were slaves. It all happened too long ago.

I'd even go so far as to say that this is common amongst white people of the South. Their families have been here so long that they no longer know from what cities their forefathers came, and in many cases don't know from what countries their forefathers came, and they don't care.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Blood Guilt and Slavery by Jim Peron

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

I HEREBY NOMINATE the honorable Senator from West Virginia, Robert Byrd, and the Lt. Governor of California, Cruz Bustemonte,to co-chair the ‘Reparations for American Slavery’ committee.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Somebody a few posts back said,

"But when you get down to the 'real people', the 'true liberals', not the 'just-for-show' or 'because it's trendy' liberals, these people genuinely believe everyone is equal."

Yeah right. Until it comes down to the not-quite-born-yet.

Then liberals become the hugest hypocrite monsters the world has ever seen.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Speaking of hypocrites..... As opposed to telling a poster on Unk's that "Anybody talks about good men who are having health problems like that" would result in the good ol' boys' version of an attitude adjustment: "[tying] 'em to a tree out in the boonies and [leaving] 'em for a few days"?

(Psst....your roots are showing.)

It would appear your concern only extends to "the not-quite-born", not for anyone who disagrees with your World View. I sure do wish I could reside in the lofty atmosphere of Moral Superiority and Judgements, Inc. (or is that L.L.C.?) like you do.

NOT.

Thankfully I grew up in a progressive, tolerant atmosphere. We even tolerate people like you. We might even invite you to dinner parties and other social events because not only do we recognize your right to exist, but we recognize your right to exist without us "tying you to a tree" in the South Bronx and "leaving you for a few days" with a sign saying, "N.C. Boy - Voted for GWB".

Lucky you.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Anita,

I'd even go so far as to say that this is common amongst white people of the South.

I think it's common of most people who are more than several generations removed from the original settlers. Plus, many of us multi-generational Americans have at least a taste of Cherokee, Afro-American, and horse thief running in the veins somewhere. :)

(The fences weren't terribly high back then.[g])

But just for the record: an extremely In-Need-Of-A-Life and anal-retentive member of our family did a huge geneology some years ago that traced all the Pooles back to England. The original family name was Pettypoole; my immediate ancestor in NC dates to the 1700's, one William Cauldwell Pettypoole.

(No mention of horse thieves in OUR line, though, so I doubt the validity of the thing.)

(But to my eternal mortification, I learned that my great-great-great grandparents DID own a slave. His name was Joseph, IIRC.)

If reparations are granted (which ISN'T going to happen, but just for fun ...), you will see an Ironic Thing: white people who can prove some black ancestry will try to claim a piece of the action.

Then it'll REALLY get messy and the people who fought for reparations will stare blankly and mutter, "whuh ...?"

It's nothing but politics. It'll never happen. My prediction, in fact, is that the courts will throw it out (as they should) and refer it to Congress, because the statue of limitations has not only expired, it has become a picked skeleton by now.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Hey folks, Johnny Cochran of OJ fame is now a litigator involved in the fight for reparations. Expect to hear more about this subject.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Anita, you said--

Well, I'm a white liberal and we talk about this stuff around here all the time. As I already said, I live with a biracial [might as well go ahead and call him black, since it only takes one drop to qualify] guy. He's a liberal, too, so we agree on many things, but disagree on many things, as well.

I know what you're saying but I see a trend where some folks with that "one drop" choose to identify as "black" rather than "white". Nowadays, "high-yellows" who in the past might have "passed" as white, now prefer to pass as black. Apparently it can be an advantage, at least in entertainment and political circles. Vanessa Williams, Whitney Houston, Charles Rangel, Julian Bond and former SC Justice Thurgood Marshall come to mind. It's obvious that they all had/have honkies in the woodpile. Ironic that some of today's darkest-skinned political figures are Conservatives such asJustice Thomas, Alan Keyes, JC Watts.

Well, that's a digression. My point is to pass along a personal anecdote---I have a male 1st cousin. Tom's heritage is 1/2 Norwegian, 1/4 Scottish, 1/4 Jewish. Tom married a woman who is 1/2 Scottish and 1/2 Osage. They have 4 kids. If I can still do fractions, that makes each kid 1/4 Osage, 1/4 Norwegian, 3/8 Scottish and 1/8 Jewish. A fine blend. Two of the kids are dark, two are fair.

The point of the anecdote is that their 1/4 Osageness qualified each kid to some kind of preferential financial benefits when it came time for college. I don't say that is right or wrong, just interesting. Sometimes it is advantageous to be a minority, even a fraction of a minority.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Hey Chicken Little, the "huge honking hypocrites" are busy attempting to clean up the pro-life mess. Of course, for our every effort, we're rewarded with the "tax and spend liberals" moniker. Hate to break it to you, but it costs money to feed, clothe, house and educate unwanted kids.

Five hundred thousand kids at, oh, $180,000 apiece to raise? Where are those dollars coming from, especially after the Shrub Bush Tax Cut Buzzsaw (cut any social program helping the poor, give the money to the wealthy,)gets through with the budget? I come up with ninety billion dollars, just for kids who are abandoned. There's a whole other subclass of kids whose parents can't afford to raise them.

Perhaps Anna Quindlen can explain it to you:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/538716.asp?0nm=-16O

I'll be very interested to read your comments about Anna's column.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001