Ok, you have to read a bit to get down to this, but I find it interesting, to say the least.

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/?Feb2001/20-a443372a.html

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Substitute teachers in Alabama must be at least 18 years old and have a high school diploma or equivalency. They also must submit to a background check and perform satisfactorily on a written essay. -------------------------------------------------------- Whetstone said pay might be an issue. Substitutes in Baldwin earn $51.75 a day if they have a college degree; those without a college degree make $42.90 a day.

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Good lord. Fifty bucks a day and no tenure? No wonder the education system is going to pot. And if AL can't afford more than that, they aren't going to pick up half the cost of $1500 vouchers, either.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Answers

Substitute teachers here make $60.00/day. I haven't heard anything about changes in pay based on education, although I think subs must have 60 hours of college credit [in anything] to apply. My daughter heard something about only 30 hours being required, but I doubt she got her information off the local ISD websites.

The problems aren't isolated to Alabama. My son attends high-school in Illinois and he has one teacher who only teaches half/day, is only paid for half/day, but is required to be on-site for the complete day. There's, certainly, no money to be made in the profession. It's got to be a labor of love.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Paul:

And if AL can't afford more than that, they aren't going to pick up half the cost of $1500 vouchers, either.

Can't say and don't understand the $1500 figure. A decade ago, we had some fundamentalist schools in the area. They have disappeared because the graduates had to return to public schools to make-up the requirements for college. All of the Roman Catholic high schools have closed.

We have some private schools, but tuition is in the $10,000 to $20,000/yr range. Seems to me that folks are talking about shooting each other without ammunition.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

$1500 is the figure GW is proposing for school vouchers. His campaign website explained that half would be Federal money, the other half from the state.

And yes, non religous affiliation private schools charge a whopping sum. This money is intended for religous private schools, because they are the only ones that will cut the cost anywhere near that low. The 'switch public schools' business is full of it - as the public schools are filled to capacity virtually nation wide.

Incidentally, I truly believe that taking out the low (almost non- existant) pay of nuns as teachers, and adding up the teacher pay of non affilated private schools would show the private teachers get paid more than public school teachers.

You want quality, you pay more. Either in hope of heaven or in the here and now. I've never heard of a way to get quality on the cheap. If somebody knows that secret, tell me, please.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Paul:

$1500 is the figure GW is proposing for school vouchers. His campaign website explained that half would be Federal money, the other half from the state.

Yes, I understand that, but not how that relates to a real world. Our public schools have problems; sure they do. Still, they are good. Here, they have driven the private schools out of the market; except those for the wealthy.

$1500 doesn't seem to make much sense in my world.

Cheers,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Paul,

It's bad everywhere. Teachers get terrible pay and even worse, their pay and incentives become political footballs anytime there's an election. Promises are made and then promptly broken.

The people in a congressional district will immediately notice a new road or school BUILDING. They WON'T notice if the teachers get a (badly-needed) 10-15% pay raise. Hence, the priorities on the part of politicians.

Unfortunately, Americans seem more impressed with words than actions. If a politician claims to support eduction, he/she will win votes, whether they actually do anything or not.

Alabama's governor (Don Siegelman) is a case in point. Long story made short: we have a surplus in the state budget, but he's talking about raising taxes to pay for teacher's raises. That naturally meets with opposition, so it probably won't happen. (Mind you, even if the increase WERE to happen, there's no guarantee that the teachers would get it.)

But no politician will say what needs to be said: why not just take some money from the surplus, or from the zillions that we get for oil leases in the Gulf, and pay the poor teachers a living wage?

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Incidentally, I truly believe that taking out the low (almost non- existant) pay of nuns as teachers, and adding up the teacher pay of non affilated private schools would show the private teachers get paid more than public school teachers.

I would disagree on this one, Paul. As low a salary as the public school teachers make, the teachers who opt for the private schools make even less. The impetus in accepting less money has to do with feeling more secure in the environment. The feeling is that parents who pay tuition are more interested in their child's education; ergo the child probably won't show up at school with a gun.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Geez, I really DID stay up too late last night.

Other factors in the decision to teach in the public or private sector include: Some private schools don't require certification. ALL public schools require certification for full-time teachers, unless they are on the deficiency plan, in which case they have two years to complete certification. Students are tested for entrance to private schools. The entrance requirements exclude students who don't have the ability to pass the tests, and oftentimes exclude students who suffer from behavioral disorders or physical disabilities that must be accommodated in the public schools by law.

So, accepting a teaching position in a private school [boiled down] amounts to: may not need state certification, won't be dealing with the kids who know nothing, won't be dealing with kids with special needs, either physical or emotional, and feel that the parents have more of an interest. The salary is, typically, based on the local public school standards, and then decreased by $1,000/yr or so. I haven't seen any difference in pay scales between secular private schools and faith-based schools.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Anita,

FWIW, that was my sister's experience in NC. She worked for a private school for beans. Even worse, the school promised her competitive money, but when she got her first paycheck, it was considerably less than what she'd expected. The schoolmarm cried when my sister approached her. "We really need you and can't afford to lose you."

My sister stayed for one year, then went to teach at a public school in Fayetteville, NC. Low as the pay was, it was still better than at the private school.

(The private school was in Moore County, near the Pinehurst/Southern Pines resort area, too, so it wasn't like there was no money in the economy. Real estate there goes for PRIMO prices.)

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Well, I've been told the situation was reversed in some places I've been. Of course, these were non-religous schools that were charging $1000 per month per student, or more, depending on grade.

Anyhow, I guess we don't have a problem understanding why the schools are going downhill. Pay the teachers enough to get quality people into the teaching field, and they will turn around.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I think vouchers are a good idea but $1500 is so stupidly low it invites failure. Double seems closer.

Remember your campus days? Those in the College of Education were pretty much lightweights. They still are from what I can tell of my teacher clientel. It's an around the barn kind of problem. Till we can pay them better we won't get better recruits and demand more from the colleges that teach and graduate the marginal ones we have now.

Still, ya gotta start somewhere and it's gonna cost some serious bucks upfront for a new approach.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

"Those in the College of Education were pretty much lightweights."

Lightweights? What do you mean?

We don't need public school teachers who are doing original research in genetic engineering or nuclear physics. We just need dedicated people who know their subject matter, can teach it to young people and can inspire them to learn more on their own than is presented in class.

Both of my parents and also my wife taught in public schools. None were "lightweights" when it comes to ability, knowledge or dedication. You want a challenge, try teaching 1st grade, bucko, then get back to me about "lightweights".

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

ANY teacher, substitute or not, should make a minimum $100/day, any day, anywhere. If I knew a tax increase would fund that, I'd be all for it. (If I knew that money was really going for that.)

Just wishful thinking.

Substitute teachers almost have the harder job, because if my childhood was any indication, substitutes catch more hell from unruly students.

All teachers at the public level should get way more pay. Talk to just about anybody, and when they talk about positive influences in their lives, teachers from K-12 get talked about a lot. Rightly so. Kids spend more waking hours with their teachers during those years than they do with their parents.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001