I have an 1 1/2 yr. old first time soon to be mom,i must have missed a heat and she was bred later then I thought,I figured the end of dec 1st of Jan. She has had a discharge for 2 weeks now no temp.eating well seems fine,well she now has a slightly bloody discharge and is off both feed and hay I thought maybe she was in labor but I see no signs such as contractions or breathing heavey.I tried to check her and she is quit swollon but no body parts showing.I am most worried about the fact that her left side is low like the baby dropped and untill this morning her right was the same but now the right side has a huge lump{baby?}high on her rib cage.Is it possible there are twins and some how twisted? my vet is on leave{she had a baby}so i am solo on this one. I have turned babies before but have never seen this. I felt the "lump" and it sure feels like a baby to me . HELP

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), February 02, 2001

Answers

From wht I have learned in a relatively short amount of time-you can see/feel babies on the right side only. the left side is all rumen and changes regularly depending on whetherthey are eating-have just risen in the am etc.

How long has she not eaten? That would be the first thing I would wonder about. Is she listless or moving around? How is her udder-is it filled out (especially in comparison to the last few days.)

My understanding is that they can have some mucouse up to a couple of weeks prior to kidding-but once you have signs of labor it usually doesn't take all that long for the birth. I think the early stanges can vary some (just like with people) and twelve to 24 hours might not be unreasonable. But when she is showing signs of heavy labor- then the time should be shorter.

make sure she has water and keep watch on her. Please update us too.

vicki-I hope you are around and can help! Ifeel a bit like the blind leading the blind here! When my first kidded a month ago-I was looking for the signs of labor-all we got was a bit of mucous-she ate like a pig! and then boom-there was the kid! Not what we expected.

Have you taken a look at the Alpinehs website? There is some great info including what to look for etc there. Try this address:

http://alpinehs.com/goatbook/

Also there is that one 911 site : www.goatworld.com/911 Hope all goes well. Update us if need be.

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), February 02, 2001.

Ok i am back in again.The lump is a baby and or body part I pushed on it it moved! I pushed both sides at once they both moved at once then seperate.She ate last night and has hay all the time.I put a call into another vet,he wants 85$ to come to the farm ,yeh right! I am calling my vet,I have her home # i'll let you know what she says.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), February 02, 2001.

Sounds like she might be in the early stages of labor though the discharge can start up to a month early if she has a big load of kids (quads maybe).I would bet you have some new kids shortly. Since she is eating again I would just watch her closely for a while. The lump is probably just one of the babies getting into position.

-- JT in Florida (gone2seed@hotmail.com), February 02, 2001.

Oh! To just be able to come on over and feel for myself! If she were going to kid right now the babies would be snug under her right in front of her growing udder, not on her sides. A buldge on her side could very eaisly be a desplaced obomassum, one of her 4 stomachs which is hereditary and mostly in swiss breeds of saanen influence. It would also move if you squished it. How you check for baby movement is to push on the doe, then let go, leaving your hand in place and the babies will sometimes kick back at your hand. Any chance of you just gloving or cleaning up and inserting a couple of clean fingers into a cleaned off doe and checking to see if the cervix is open? If you use a non bred doe as your control, you will quickly be able to feel the difference between the two.

The off grain and hay is quite normal if she is actually going to deliver today, though is a sign of hypocalcemia or ketosis if it goes on much past that. With the bloody discharge your should either see kids or abortion. The sure way to tell if she truly is due is to look at her udder, and if you milk her and get colostrum than babies are on the way. My does simply don't have any blood until after kidding, no blood in any discharge, so yes this would alarm me enough to go in and see what is happening, like she was in labor overnight, it didn't progress, and she is now out of labor with dead kids. Definetly get a more experienced goat person out or vet!

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 02, 2001.

I am tring to remain calm,the bump is a baby i push it moves,i push the other side it moves.She will take sweet feed so i gae her a small hand full and water she drank. I got a glove and felt,she seems wide but i cant feel a baby. She kicked the crap out of me so i backed off. The vet called and told me if I do not see signs of hard labor I can get a shot of potosin{sp}and try it if I am sure it is in early labor.She is thinking they are twisted up inside and pushing each other out of the way. She also told me if worst comes to worst load her up and bring her in and if I help she will do a c-section on her.She told me wait it out alittle longer and see what happens.I love my vet! put I feel like I am useing her,she just had a c-section 10 days ago.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), February 02, 2001.

I have an question-Vicki you said that if she were about to kid today that you could feel the kids right up close to her udder. Which makes sense to me. But is it possible to feel kids before labor? I have been told no more than two weeks or so (unless doe is huge). Where would you feel them if you were going to try to palpate for them?

Is this safe to do? I have a doe who is supposed to be due any time since last month...she is getting quite large, her udder has begun to fill out (it did before she came here, and is about twice as big since she came here and noticeably bigger from last week-beleive me I am watching her!) I would like to try to feel the kids-but not usre where to check for them.

Thanks, Sarah

-- sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), February 02, 2001.

Geeze Renee, if you give pitocin (oxytocin) to a doe with a closed cervix she can rupture her uterus, having contractions against a closed cervix. So, then if you give Lutelyse you have an emptying of the uterus and an open cervix, but what if this isn't labor? Nothing as sad a early delivery, even 2 weeks early is a chance of having kids not being able to breath. As you put your hand in go in and up. The vagina is at least as long as your fingers so you will have to press in to feel the cervix, if you can get your fingers in you will feel the rings of the cervix, how many fingers can you get in? And then, as you take your hand out does she push against you? a doe in early labor would do this. Also is their any smell to your hand or glove? Though even talking labor last night that you missed would not be really smelling yet, though perhaps an elevated temp by tommorrow morning. Did you milk her? Did you get true yellow colostrum? Colostrum before a doe kids is not thick and yellow, course just like in all things goat, first fresheners are notorius for not following any of this.

You will always see breeders trying to guess at shows if a doe is bred or not. We all take turns doing our version of the bump. Straddle the doe and bear hug her in front of her udder, let your arms drop suddenly and keep them lightly on the skin of her foreudder, if the kids kick back yep she is bred. The udder is always a good indication. You can also with some experience go in and feel of the cervix, I can also tell in some of my older does that they are bred because their cervix is so relaxed you can see the mucous plug. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 02, 2001.

Renee, what about her udder? Is it full and shiny tight? I have spent a lot of time worrying and then checking does who didn't kid for two or three more weeks. You should try to see if you can feel her cervix when you check her. I always have to tie my does up when I check them even when they are in heavy labor. If you can feel a closed cervix, she is probably not ready yet. If it feels open and you can feel a fluid filled bubble they are ready to be born. I agree with Vicki, if you are not sure when she is bred do not let the vet insuce her! Even if the dates are correct, she might not be ready yet. I have a doe who is always a week late (she also has a lot of false labor for the last month, which makes the last week or two a real guessing game.) Is she acting restless and making a nest?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 02, 2001.

The bump dropped! its down next to the other one. she seems happier now. I know she is bred,the vet would not give me the drugs unless i was 100% sure there was a problem{i am not}. I figure since the bump dropped things may go ok. it's going to be a long night.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), February 02, 2001.

Good luck Renee, and please let us know how it turns out.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 02, 2001.

Well no baby yet,she seems great today,running around and all..some times I HATE GOATS then again they sure are cute.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), February 03, 2001.

Glad your doe is doing better.Here's another sign of labor to add to your list.Picked this one up years ago, think it was in the Gopher Goat Gossip (Mn goat club newsletter) Not as obvious in some does as others, the muscles at the root or base of the tail loosen so that the tail will feel slack when pressure is applied.This is generally 24-48 hrs before kidding. We got into the habit of feeling for the muscles, one on each side forming a v with the tail at the point of the v, and giving the tail a little shake when some of the other labor signs are present.

-- Nancy Bakke-McGonigle Mn. Sunset (dmcgonig@smig.net), February 03, 2001.