Brethren:

I now quote from Brother A. Kelley the following words:

"Lee, again I am not surprised to see your arogant and self righteous language has not changed. For you information so you can ridicule me more and slander my name and character... I now speak in tongues. In fact I have been also "slain in the spirit" on three occasions. I do not expect you to understand since your lack of understanding and legalistical pharasee type of reasoning will not allow you to understand my view and expereince. Lee, instead of throwing around unproven attacks by calling me a false teacher you need to look in a mirror. Your brand of "Iam the only CHristian in the only true church" attatitude is leading yourself and those around you to hell with your flawed logic. Yours is a sespool of theological rubbish that the stench is far from ending, unless you encounter the power of the Holy Spiritas I have. I pray that you will repent before it is too late for you."

Most of you will remember the discussions that I had with Brother Kelley about his "experiencing" tongue speaking which he later denied having the gift of tongues. Well now he claims to have it but still he offers no proof that he has the gift of tongues.

Not only that but now he contends that he has been "slain in the Spirit".

I do not doubt that he has been "slain" but I do doubt that he has been "slain" by the Spirit of God.

I am posting this as a new thread because I did not want these words from our "loving" Brother Kelley to go unnoticed in a thread filled with numerous twists and turns of argument. I am also posting it so others can respond concerning this unscriptural notion of being "slain in the Spirit" and the total lack of proof that he has spoken in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2001

Answers

Ladies and Gentlemen.....for your consideration...."The Twilight Zone"......do do do do do do do do do do do do.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Way ahead of you, Lee. I replied and asked for scriptural support on the issue in that thread.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2001

'Slain in the Spirit' is not a term found in scripture of course, but there were occasions when people fell down during spiritual experiences in the Bible. Many fell on their faces (which could be voluntary as well. In the garden of Gethsemene, some people fell on their backs when Jesus said 'I am.'

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2001

Brother Kelley,

Congratulations. I'm glad to hear the testimony of what the Lord is doing in your life. I do wonder where that qutoe comes from. I don't recall seeing it in any of the relavent threads, though I may have skipped some messages.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2001

E. Lee,

Two more comments.

In another thread, you said something about me trying to get others prejudiced againt you. What I did was start a thread drawing attention to one of your views, hoping to have a thread dealing with that particular aspect of the conversation Now I see you taking a quote from Bro. Kelley and starting a conversation out of it. Are you being consistent?

Also, neither I nor Brother Kelley nor anyone else are required to prove anything to you. What if I demanded something of you.

Lee, I demand that you take time off your work schedule, buy a plane ticket, come here to Jakarta, and show me by unquestionable evidence that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Well, Lee hasnt' come here to Jakarta to show any evidence that he believes in Jesus. he just expects us to believe it because he says so, even though he hasn't presented any proof.

You didn't like it in another thread when I mistakenly asked you to prove something that you did not believe (on the issue of Christians receiving the Holy Spirit.) Yet you repeatedly ask for akelly and I to come do something supernatural for you to prove that we have the Holy Spirit. I have shown you scriptural evidence in the past, including on current threads, that different gifts of the Spirit are given to different Christians. The Holy Spirit dwells in me, but that doesn't mean I raise the dead. If you hold to an unscriptural theory that every believer who has recieved the Holy Spirit can automatically raise the dead at will to put on a show for you, then don't try to make us conform to your misunderstanding onthe subject.

Your 'Brother so-and so has asserted X. But he has not proved X to be the case. He just expectsus to believe X because he says it is so" argumentis getting really lame. No matter how many times you repeat it, it is still lame, and you've demonstrated an ability to fill up books worth of material with this kind of meta-discussion.

I'm going to tell you something. One of the reasons I am slow to respond to some of your arguments, and actually have let a lot of your arguments unanswered (especially the ones that don't have much weight to them or are just character attacks) is because I have to wade through a lot of meta-discussion like the argument style I presented above. I also have to wade through a lot of character attacks, sarcasm and snide remarks. There are still messages of yours on these threads that I haven't read and responded to yet. When I think of reading through what- maybe 50 pages of repetetive arguments, some of it metadiscussion like the stuff above, written in a sarcastic biting tone, full of inuindo and character attacks. In some other threads I just told you all I would do was skim over your messages and maybe respond to a few points. Frankly, I dont' see a lot of benefit to reading over yoru emssages. I suspect a lot of people hit hte page down key when you go into sarcastic mode and get long winded, too. Beyond the attitude issues, you need to just trim down what you want to say and say what you want to say once. Don't write everything you think. Choose what you want ot say. Organize your ideas. Put the ideas on the same topic together. S ay whatyou want to say once. Maybe you could write an outline first, type the message up on a word processor,and then write them down. Then go back through and do away with repetitive argumetns and edit out attacks on people's character and sarcasm. Then people might read your messsages in their entirity. Your one of the few posters that I think may actually be more long-winded than I am.

Lee, If you have not recieved the Spirit of God, do not expectto understand spiritual things. COnsider this passage:

"1 Corinthians 2:12-14 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

If you have not received the Spirit of God, as it says in verse 12, and are still a natural man, then dont' expect to understand the Scriptures or the gift of the Spirit. If you have not received the Spirit, do not expect to know the things that are freely given to us of God.

If you do not have the Spirit of God, then you need to repent.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2001

E. Lee,

Two more comments.

In another thread, you said something about me trying to get others prejudiced againt you. What I did was start a thread drawing attention to one of your views, hoping to have a thread dealing with that particular aspect of the conversation Now I see you taking a quote from Bro. Kelley and starting a conversation out of it. Are you being consistent?

Also, neither I nor Brother Kelley nor anyone else are required to prove anything to you. What if I demanded something of you.

Lee, I demand that you take time off your work schedule, buy a plane ticket, come here to Jakarta, and show me by unquestionable evidence that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Well, Lee hasnt' come here to Jakarta to show any evidence that he believes in Jesus. he just expects us to believe it because he says so, even though he hasn't presented any proof.

You didn't like it in another thread when I mistakenly asked you to prove something that you did not believe (on the issue of Christians receiving the Holy Spirit.) Yet you repeatedly ask for akelly and I to come do something supernatural for you to prove that we have the Holy Spirit. I have shown you scriptural evidence in the past, including on current threads, that different gifts of the Spirit are given to different Christians. The Holy Spirit dwells in me, but that doesn't mean I raise the dead. If you hold to an unscriptural theory that every believer who has recieved the Holy Spirit can automatically raise the dead at will to put on a show for you, then don't try to make us conform to your misunderstanding onthe subject.

Your 'Brother so-and so has asserted X. But he has not proved X to be the case. He just expectsus to believe X because he says it is so" argumentis getting really lame. No matter how many times you repeat it, it is still lame, and you've demonstrated an ability to fill up books worth of material with this kind of meta-discussion.

I'm going to tell you something. One of the reasons I am slow to respond to some of your arguments, and actually have let a lot of your arguments unanswered (especially the ones that don't have much weight to them or are just character attacks) is because I have to wade through a lot of meta-discussion like the argument style I presented above. I also have to wade through a lot of character attacks, sarcasm and snide remarks. There are still messages of yours on these threads that I haven't read and responded to yet. When I think of reading through what- maybe 50 pages of repetetive arguments, some of it metadiscussion like the stuff above, written in a sarcastic biting tone, full of inuindo and character attacks. In some other threads I just told you all I would do was skim over your messages and maybe respond to a few points. Frankly, I dont' see a lot of benefit to reading over yoru emssages. I suspect a lot of people hit hte page down key when you go into sarcastic mode and get long winded, too. Beyond the attitude issues, you need to just trim down what you want to say and say what you want to say once. Don't write everything you think. Choose what you want ot say. Organize your ideas. Put the ideas on the same topic together. S ay whatyou want to say once. Maybe you could write an outline first, type the message up on a word processor,and then write them down. Then go back through and do away with repetitive argumetns and edit out attacks on people's character and sarcasm. Then people might read your messsages in their entirity. Your one of the few posters that I think may actually be more long-winded than I am.

Lee, If you have not recieved the Spirit of God, do not expectto understand spiritual things. COnsider this passage:

"1 Corinthians 2:12-14 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

If you have not received the Spirit of God, as it says in verse 12, and are still a natural man, then dont' expect to understand the Scriptures or the gift of the Spirit. If you have not received the Spirit, do not expect to know the things that are freely given to us of God.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2001

Brother Link:

You have said:

“E. Lee, I notice you didn't fly over here to Indonesia and meet my challenge to prove that you believed that Jesus is the Son of God. You didn't come over here and try.”

Now, it is obvious, to any discerning individual that has read your words to me that you have not “seriously” asked me to come to Indonesia to prove that I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It is also true that no one during our discussions, including yourself has ever seriously doubted that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And it is also clear that you believe without question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and therefore there is no difference between you and I on this issue. Thus there is no need whatsoever for me to go to Indonesia and prove something to you that you already believe to be the truth. And it is not in the least important to me whether you accept the fact that I believe Christ is the Son of God. I am satisfied to know that you and others in this forum believe it. And you can rest assured that if any man challenged me to go to Indonesia and debate with him. And vie with him in a public forum for the souls of men concerning the proposition that Christ is the Son of God I would take the first opportunity to arrange to be there to defend that truth. Now, if you deny that Christ is the Son of God and sincerely desire for me to come to Indonesia and prove to you that He is the Son of God in a Public forum I will be happy to make arrangements to do just that. But, if you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God as I do and all you want is for me to prove to you that I believe it I would not walk across the street for such a purpose. For I have not been commanded by Christ to go forth and convince the world of “my beliefs”. Instead I have been commanded to go and preach the gospel to every creature. I am not set for the defense of “E. Lee Saffold”. But rather I am “set for the defense of the gospel”. If you deny the gospel and the deity of Christ I will resist you with all the strength that is in me.

But, the situation is quite different with your assertion that you have the Holy Spirit today. And it is also quite different with Brother Kelley’s false assertion that he has spoken in tongues as the apostles did in Acts 2 and as the Household of Cornelius did in Acts 10 and As the Ephesians did in Acts 19:1-6. It seems important to you that I believe that you have the Holy Spirit. I deny that you have the received the Holy Spirit as did the Apostles and the House of Cornelius in Acts 2 and Acts 10. I deny that you have the Holy Spirit at all in any sense whatsoever. I am aware you claim to have a “different gift” that the apostles had but you are claiming to have the “same Spirit” that they had from which you received a “different gift”. And it is extremely convenient for you that the particular gift that you claim to have is a “non-miraculous” or not supernatural. In this way there is no objective and observable evidence that you have such a gift. And it is your hope that since you have no objective evidence to prove that you have such a gift that we will simply accept your assertion on the grounds that we cannot prove that you do not have it. But I will not accept that you have the “same Spirit” that the apostles had unless I can see some demonstration of it similar to that which the apostles and those upon whom they laid their hands were able to show. And the quoting of passages of Scripture which tell me that the apostles and the first century Christians had these powers is not evidence that you have them today, nor were they written to convince us that YOU have the Holy Spirit today. I sincerely believe every verse in the Bible about the Holy Spirit and you have not shown me a single one that would or should convince anyone that YOU have that “same Spirit” that they had.

And I have not asked you to come to Atlanta and prove that you have the Holy Spirit, though I would be happy for you to do so when you come to visit your family. You are simply mixing up two separate and distinct subjects that we have discussed. The time that I challenged you to come to Atlanta and “raise” the dead was during the time that I was arguing with Brother Kelley. He had claimed that the miracles that were done in the book of Acts were still happening today and I challenged him concerning the fact that “raising the dead” was not happening today. And you agreed with Brother Kelley and affirmed that “raising the dead” was happening today. I then challenged either of you, or anyone that you knew, to come and do such miracles in Atlanta. I knew while making that challenge that neither you nor he, nor anyone else in the known world would accept it. For you have no such powers from the Holy Spirit and neither does any mere man living today. The real reason that you have not come to demonstrate these powers that we were arguing about is because you cannot do it. And all we hear from you is that you will not do it because I would not believe even if I saw a miracle. Now you do not have any way of knowing what my reaction would be if I saw a miracle. And you cannot prove to save your life that I would react to a “miracle” with doubt. In fact, I believe every miracle recorded in the Bible. But you are correct in understanding that I will examine any such claims and will not be deceived by any “trickery” or be deceived by any fraud. But, If I were to see any of the genuine miracles that I read about in the New Testament I would just as quickly accept them, as did the first century Christians. I have not seen any such miracles though I have attended meetings where the “preachers” were claiming to do them. They were all frauds and proven without question to be frauds. One of them was “Oral Roberts” who was run out of my home town for perpetrating such frauds when I was a very young man and I witnessed his trickery, lies, and deceptions. My mother, as a faithful Christian wanted me to observe these false teachers in action and took me for the very purpose of showing just how fraudulent these men were. In fact, the brethren in those days openly challenged these deliberate deceivers to the point that they would not return. They were claiming to “heal the sick and raise the dead” in their advertisements and were found by the brave brethren who challenged them, to be severely “wanting”. And I do not doubt for one moment that anyone that you know who is claiming to do such miracles are just a fraudulent as these men have proven themselves to be. But I offered you the challenge to come and demonstrate these “miracles” during that discussion and neither you nor Brother Kelley has taken that challenge. And you never will because you know even better than we do that you have NO POWER from God. You also know even better than we do that no one that you know has such power from God.

But I have not made this challenge for you to come to Atlanta and prove that you have the Holy Spirit for you have sought to keep that assertion solely in the realm of the “subjective”. You dare not even try to bring that assertion out into the “objective” arena where it can be examined in the light of day. In the New Testament there was always objective evidence that one had the Holy Spirit. And this objective and clearly observable fact that they had the Holy Spirit was the OBJECTIVE evidence that was used often to establish that the apostles and early Christians were inspired by and speaking for God. No subjective “feeling” that one had the Holy Spirit or any empty and unproven assertions was sufficient to confirm that the early Church spoke the word of God. They went everywhere preaching the word and the Lord worked with them “confirming the word with signs following.” (Mark 16: `7-20). They never told anyone that they would not use “signs” to confirm the word of God for God did those signs and wonders for that very purpose (Acts 4; Heb. 2:3,4; Mark 16:9-20). Unlike our Brother Link who CLAIMS to have the Holy Spirit and is ever unwilling to demonstrate objectively that he has the Holy Spirit. He is ever CLAIMING that God is doing miracles today but never willing that any such miracles should be “demonstrated” to those who doubt it. The obvious difference between brother Link’s claims and the New Testament reality is seen in this complete inability to demonstrate what the apostles and first century Christians were not only willing and able to demonstrate but actually did demonstrate. They were ever willing and ready to demonstrate that they had the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:1-4). And they not only affirmed but proved by demonstrations of power (1 Thess. 1:5) that they had the “Spirit of Christ”. They did this for the very purpose of confirming or proving that they were spokesmen for God and were inspired by God to preach the gospel. This was the very way that the Lord was working with them “confirming the word with signs following” (Mark 16:17-20). It was undeniable that they had the Holy Spirit and were therefore spokesmen for God. They were not just ordinary uninspired men with no further ambition than men like Brothers Link and Kelley who seek nothing more than to stir the emotions and religious fervor of the simple and easily deceived souls who would believe anything without the slightest shred of evidence to support it. The numerous and undeniable demonstrations of power affirmed historically by friend and foe alike of the early Church in the New Testament was the genuine work of the Holy Spirit. And the idle and empty claims of men like Brothers Link and Kelley do not even remotely compare. For their claim is nothing more than their own self -delusions concerning the work of the Holy Spirit today. One minute they claim that the Holy Spirit is doing the same today that He did in New Testament times and the next minute they are denying that they have the same power as those in the New Testament possessed from the Holy Spirit. Any discerning person can see the DISTINCT DIFFERENCE by comparing their weak claims and assertions of having the “Holy Spirit in their lives” and their following firm denials of having any observable powers from the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Godhead “dwelling” within them. The contradiction is evident and overwhelming to anyone who reads the New Testament thoughtfully.

There were those in the New Testament times who claimed to speak for God but they could not prove it. Such were the Judiazing teachers that Paul was ever confronting. Notice how HE challenges them in this verse.

“ But I will come shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the SPEECH of them that are puffed up, but the POWER. For the kingdom of God is not in WORD, but in POWER.” (1 Cor. 4:19-20). Then Paul said to the Thessalonians, “For our gospel came not unto you in WORD ONLY, but also in POWER, and in the HOLY SPIRIT, and in MUCH ASSURANCE; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. (1 Thess. 1:5).

Now, in these above passages we have an apostle of Christ challenging the Judiazing teachers. And he is challenging their POWER, which he knew they did not have, and affirming the POWER that he without doubt had from the Holy Spirit so that he could bring the gospel with “much assurance”. Compare this to Brother Link’s feeble inability to show any power from the Holy Spirit and his complete unwillingness to do so even if he had such power. It is different indeed, isn’t it Brethren?

At least, my brethren, who believe that they have an “ordinary” or non-miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit today, admit that the word of God has been revealed and confirmed by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit in the early church. And that this has accomplished the purpose of giving us the inspired word of God. And thus they do not claim to have any miraculous power from the Holy Spirit and expect no miracles to confirm the word of God today. But Brother Link is claiming that the Holy Spirit is still working today in exactly the same way that he did during the time when he was revealing and confirming the word of God during the infancy of the church as described in the New Testament. But he is not willing nor is he able to demonstrate that God is speaking through him by the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT as Paul and the early church were more than willing and able to do. Anyone that cannot see this distinct difference is either blind and cannot see or has his eyes closed because he is unwilling to see the truth.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2001

I NEVER BELIEVED IN FALLING DOWN AND SLAYING IN THE "SPIRIT" UNTILL IT HAPPENED TO ME. WHEN ONE COMES IN THE PRESENCES OF "THE ALMIGHTY LORD GOD", ONE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAND. WHY? ONE WOULND'T BE HOLY ENOUGH AND, THE POWER WHICH RADIATES FROM THE "LORD" CAN AND WOULD NOCK ANYONE OF THEIR FEET. ANOTHER REASON, IS FOR THAT PERSON TO BOW IN REVERENCE TO THE LORD. SMILE!

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN ANYONE CRITIZES THE "DAUGHTER OF THE MOST HIGH GOD" WHEN I SUBMIT SOME ANSWERS. WHY? READ WHAT THE HOLY SCRIPTURES MENTION ABOUT 'HIS-GOS's' HOLY PROPHETS, AND THE LORD HAS SPOKEN TO ME PERSONALLY AND SAID, " I AM THE APPLE OF HIS EYE "; AND GAVE ME SCRIPTURE . SO PLEASE BE CAREFUL. GOD BLESS, & SMILE! ALWAYS. I HAVE ALSO BEEN GIVEN A SONG & WORDS & MUSIC. "I AM THE APPLE OF GOD's EYE." BEAUTIFUL SONG. FOR WARNED IS FOR ARMED.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Ms. Ramsay

Could you turn off your caps lock? It makes reading harder.

Btw, God feels that way about many more of His children than just one- that they are the apple of His eye. Being beloved of the Lord doesn't make one above criticism.

Most people on here seem to be cessationists, so that type of statement isn't going to keep people from criticising you (and it doesn't work to well among discerning charismatics either.:)

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Brother Link:

I appreciate your comments above. It does indeed palce a significant difference between you and some "charismatics" out there. I just want you to know that I have always recognized that particular distinction and would do nor say anything that would seem to put you in a class with people like our friend Ms. Ramsey.

I do sincerely hope that what has happened to this dear lady is not what has happened to our Brother Kelley who also claims to have been "slain in the spirit" not only once but thrice!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2001

Hey AJAX!!! What's up? Remember me? I probably will never check this board again so if you read this, email me. It's kballmagic@aol.com. We should get togethet sometime. I got some new stuff to show 'ya that's gonna knock yer socks plumb off! LOL Hey, speaking of people's socks being knocked off, what did you think of the new special? Anyway, I don't even know how I found this hair-brained discussion anyway, maybe God wants us to start communicating again. Providence. It's a remarkable thing. :)

Kenn

PS. My stage show will be ready by the end of the year. I scaled it down a tad for the first outing. Got a church I can come debut it in? Love 'ya man.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2001