I got this off a list, and I wanted to share it with this group. 'Miracles' gets used a little loosely, but this is a good example of how God works in supernatural ways in the lives of believers. This is a response from someone who read a message alledging that miracles were generally psychosomatic.

I don't know that we ever actually obtained the documentation of the situation but my wife had two high-risk pregnancies in Phoenix and in the first they showed (through ultra-sounds) a problem with the placenta about mid-way through the pregnancy that later showed as corrected. As I was given to understand at the time this was a condition that would not and could not self-correct the records should be available. Also, mid-way through the pregnancy she was hospitalized with a fibroid tumor that was outgrowing its blood supply and the doctor's said they would have no choice but to operate to "end the pregnancy." We told them that wasn't an option and that they would do their best to save both and we would pray and trust God with the results. The results were the fibroid stopped growing and a beautiful baby girl who loves God with all her heart was born and is now doing very well.

Our second child suffered from incredibly low-amniotic fluid in the womb and they were doing ultra-sounds weekly and didn't give much hope for her. She was born prematurely but was fine and also loves God. When she was about 6 months old she went through a period in Texas where she stopped being able to defecate normally and we had to use enemas for a period of about a month. The Doctor's were trying to figure out what was wrong and couldn't. We visited a small church (less than 20 people there) in a small town in Texas and the pastor asked if anyone needed prayer for healing. We went up and had our daughter prayed for. Immediately after service she had her first bowel movement by her own power in over a month and never had a problem again. The records for this should be with the Doctor's office in Dallas I would think. I imagine they will just show that there was a problem and then there wasn't. I don't think 6 month olds are able to have a psychosomatic healing but who knows-- she had been prayed for about this before, though? How do you document a miracle?

I have other stories of God's miraculous power, as I am sure others do but what qualifies as documentation? When a pastor in Mexico (a friend of mine) has no food for his family and sits down at the table at dinner time and prays and thanks God for his provision and someone from out of town shows up with a large supply of tortillas and beans at that moment is it a miracle? Is his memory enough documentation, or does he need to keep a diary, or would he require notarized witnesses.

If a person prays for God's direction without telling anyone and then a serious of amazing co-incidences occur whereby the person is promoted by one person to apply to a Bible College and then unsolicited finances come in from an entirely different source in less than a week (the people didn't even know each other or have contact) with the provisio that they provide for a move to do just that, is it a miracle?

If a person feels God calling them to pray in a specific place at a specific time yet their car breaks down (battery dies) the night before and they pray and feel God directing them to call an old friend. In fact they specifically feel like this friend they haven't seen for about a month has a car with a good battery yet for some reason the car doesn't run. The phone conversation goes like this, "Hey Jimmy, this is going to sound strange, but do you have a car with a good battery that isn't running and if you do can I borrow the battery." "Hey Mike that is strange but my old white car broke down earlier this week and I had just bought a new battery about a month ago. Sure you can borrow it." Is this a miracle or just an amazing co-incidence.

Oh, it goes further, when you get a ride over to your friends house you find out that his batter is a top mount and your's is a side mount. You run to the auto store and get there five minutes before it closes and realize that you only have a few dollars in change in your pocket and the connectors cost more than that but then you notice there are adapters from for changing from side mount to top mount so you take them up to the cash register and he rings up the EXACT amount after taxes that is in your pocket. How do you document this? In any case the clerk at the store got a serious witness that night when he asked why you were so excited.

How do you define miracles? I saw a high school guy who didn't speak Spanish get separated from our group when we were doing some services and we figured we would catch up with him back at the house later as he and the couple of Mexican brothers he was with knew where that was. So we went on to do a service in another area we had been asked to do. Immediately following service, EXACTLY AS WE WALKED OUT THE BACK DOOR of the building he and the two brothers were walking by a gap in a hedge across from the doorway. They had prayed for direction to join us and had gotten a ride to the area, asked the driver to stop, and had started walking down this way. Two things, (1) they didn't have a clue as to where this meeting was being held, and (2) if they had walked by that gap in the hedge a minute before or a minute later they would have missed us. Does this qualify as a miracle, how does one document it? Me I've just always treasured it in my heart.

When someone for the first time in their life feels the sudden need to spontaneously take a day off from work and to pray all day and then walks in their house as the phone is ringing with someone calling to tell them their best friend from college had committed suicide the week before. Was this the grace of God preparing this person for the blow, I don't know I'm just glad I had been strongly in prayer when I heard the news.

There are so many stories like this. Which qualify as miracles and which as amazing co-incidences? What is necessary to document these to make them "real" miracles? Is a word of knowledge that one person gets and relays to another person that speaks exactly to a situation they are facing. When a bible college sermon working with three other students prepares a service and none of them talk to each other about their topics yet the first three point by point cover the last's message. (i.e., the first speaker covered point one (word for word) from speaker three's outline, the second speaker point two and the third speaker the final point) is this a miracle or a coincidence.

I personally consider these things to categorize as valid miracles which were not brought about by psychosomatic means but rather were arrived at through outside intervention in physical non- controllable facts.

Some of these were in the area of physical healing some were in other areas you make your own judgement call. Me I'm going to keep fasting, praying, and trusting God when anyone in my family needs a healing.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Answers

I tried to post a reply to disagree with you 3 times but my connection was timed out. Is that a miracle? I think not. It is not that you experiences were not strange and a valid moment for consideration however I do see, as with almost all other situations, that there too much room for coincidence. Here is an example of what I mean. I live in Jersey, a very dangerous part of Jersey. Have you heard of Newark? It's very ugly here. One day I walking through Branch Brook Park at night and I was attacked by 2 men with a gun and a knife. What they did not know was that 1:I have no money because it all went to this computer and still does, and 2:I am a 15 year Aikido veteran. Only 5th generation in this particular style(Ryu in Dojo)and very, very good. I knew, like most others that if you have no money and get robbed then you are more likely to get shot, stabbed or beaten for nothing. If I had money I would have given it to them. I wanted to give them something, I know they would not have resorted to this if not for neccessity, whether it be for drugs or for food, they needed help and someday they will see their own way to peace I hope, but unlikely. Well, I knew they really did not want to kill me because the man with the knife acted first when I said I was truly broke. Seeing his "friend" on the ground with a broken arm and me with a knife in my hand now(his friends knife) he should have shot me to save himself, but instead he ran, and I was greatful. I did not thank God and I did not pray. What kept that man from shooting me I pondered. I left 35 cents on the ground next to the guy who was in agony and told him to call an ambulence, tell them you were robbed and you didn't see they guy. He wimpered and I said,"next time either go to a church or rehab, you need help, this isn't the way to get though." Then I ran home and almost lost my dinner. I was terrified and shocked that that man did not shoot me. Was it a miracle? No, he was a guy whoi probably had a drug problem and was not so bad before the addiction, saw that I took my life more seriously than he did and ran. He was the miracle if there was one. We are all miraculous in my eyes. I think God sits back and just watches the wonderful things we do proud of It's creation. Tell your story of miracles to the mother of a 12 year old child who did pray heartfully everyday and was shot dead by a gang fight. Why didn't the bullet just wiz by his ear if he loved God so much? I am not doubt God, I never did. But I do doubt people's definition of what God is and does. This goes with miracles as well.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

This is not to pick sides, but Anthony has a point.

The only "true" miracles happen to those people still alive to tell the tale. In other words, miracles are biased towards the survivors. The people in the Valujet, Alaska Air and TWA crashes didn't pray for a miracle as the plane plummeted toward the ground? You bet they did. Were there any miracles? Hard to say. No survivors. This is not to say that a person's miraculous delivery from death or disease is lessened. It isn't. But you have to survive the fall, first.

(:raig

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Interesting story about martial arts. But there is a big difference between someone using fighting skills he has learned and someone hearing God tell him to call someone because that guy had a battery he wasn't using, as in the story above.

But you should thank God for saving your life. God doesn't always work by sending fire from heaven.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2001

I think we must learn to discriminate between the providence of God and a miracle. Every instance in the Bible where something was specifically called a "miracle", happened outside of all natural laws. I think that is a good divining point.

Someone being cured of cancer after undergoing treatments may well have been cured as the will of God, but He worked through natural laws to accomplish this healing. Now if a terminally ill man instantly "rises up & walks" without any treatments or medicines applied - that could be considered a miracle.

In your battery story I see no miracle. I see blessings from God and His Providential care, but nothing there happened outside of God's natural laws.

I think Christians need to be careful as to what we call miracles. Today's world is full of hype & sensationalism, and if we go around crying "miracle, miracle" at every little thing, we will end up blending the Church into the world and loose our witness and our calling to be "not of this world" - ala "the Boy who cried Wolf" syndrome.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2001

I agree with you that 'miracle' is often used in a very loose sense. (I pointed out when I quoted the above message that 'miracle' is used loosely in the selection.)

I don't think calling things like this use of 'miracle' would be a case of the boy crying wolf because 'miracle' gets used so usely by non-Christians. Child-birth is referred to as a miracle. In fact, many people on this forum get irritated when people use the popular definition of miracle in their writing, rather than a more technical definition based on using scriptural terms for scriptural things. Since the word 'miracle' gets watered down in it's popular usage, unbelievers probably won't think we are crying wolf when we say 'miracle' because their definition is a lot more watered down that ours.

In fact, if I am in a conversation which uses scriptural terminology, I don't really like the term 'miraculous gifts' for two reasons. One reason is that it implies and unscriptural division between gifts (miraculous and non-miraculous gifts.) Another reason is that tongues, prophecy, etc. are not called miracles in scripture. The gift of the working of miracles is listed as a separate gift from these others. But when dealing with unbelievers, sometimes we have to loosen up a bit on our definitions of terms and allow them to express themselves using 'pop' terminology.

We all realize that the author of the message I posted uses 'miracles' loosely. Let why don't we agree to just look beyond that and comment on the subject-matter?

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2001