Find below some links that articulate my thinking regarding the death penalty. As you will see, significant debate exists within the Church exists of this topic. Do you consider the arguments presented below as flawed?

Examination of scripture. http://revolutioncenter.org/deathpenalty/Bible.htm

Quaker opposition to death penalty. http://members.aol.com/fcadp/archives/Quotes.htm

Iowa Catholic Bishops' Statement on Death Penalty http://www.nccbuscc.org/sdwp/national/criminal/death/iowa98.htm

Catholics Against Capital Punishment

http://www.igc.org/cacp/

Various Catholic church statements. Some of which support the death penalty: http://www.mcgill.pvt.k12.al.us/jerryd/cm/death.htm

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America http://elca.org/dcs/death.html

Regards, Chris Hawkins

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2001

Answers

Chris....

There are a number of colleges and seminaries that offer external study programs that are of top quality.

If you are interested.....just e-mail me and I'll be glad to provide you with some help.

Also....I have a sermon that is in manuscipt format that I would be glad to send you via e-mail if you would like. It is in MS Word format.

There is little doubt....that those who truly seek the truth....and ask God to help them.....will find the answers they desire.

God bless you in your quest.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Hey Chris....

I'm at a different 'puter right now.....but....as soon as I get to my other one.....I'll send that manuscript to you.

TTL,

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Chris,

I could spend weeks refuting the arguments against the death penalty in just the 1st website alone. I don't have the time for that, so let me just put out a few simple points:

First, I do strongly believe that the Death Penalty is valid and even mandated by Scripture. Most people who are against it err in the fact that they think it is done out of revenge. That is not so. It is to be done to punish the grave wrong doer. God doesn't want revenge, he wants justice. God doesn't hate the condemned man, just his action - and He loves the rest of mankind enough to want to keep them safe from the perpetrator of evil.

I couldn't say these types of things without Scriptural evidence, so lets just look at a few:

Go back to Genesis 9:1-17 -

Vs. 4 - "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made you". Here is a major point in understanding the death penalty. Man is made in God's own image, so in effect, when you kill a man - you have killed the Image of God! The Psalmist wrote that He had created man JUST a little lower than the angels (the Hebrew word "elohim" - which can be translated as either God or angel, depending on the context). There has been no religion in the history of the world, Christian or pagan, that would allow the image of their god to be desecrated in such a way. And to the one and only True God and Creator of all, such callous regard for His image must be intolerable. I can imagine that the pain God feels every time a murder is committed, must feel like a replay of the crucifixion of Christ - when the express image of God was murdered.

Also note that in this passage, which includes not only the death penalty but also the OK to eat meat and the promise of never flooding the earth again signified with the rainbow, God makes a covenant with Noah about all these things. The sites you gave us all pretty much agree that Jesus & His teachings superceeded or fulfilled the law of Moses and the Covenant made with Abraham. But what about the Covenant made with Noah? There is absolutely NO mention in Scripture of that covenant being done away with or overridden by another. Do you believe that God will not again flood the earth? Did not Paul confirm in both Romans & I Corinthians that the eating of meat was OK? Why then should we assume that the death penalty part of that Covenant was abolished when all the rest of this Covenant has been upheld in the New Testament scriptures? (God doesn't do the Line-Item Veto thing - it either is or it isn't)

Now....lets look at the Old Testament book of Nahum. Please read the 1st chapter (if not all of it since it is only 3 chapters) and then read the rest here.......................................

Ready?

Most people see this book as an example of God's great wrath, which was being focused upon the Ninevites in this particular book. I disagree with that assessment. God was about to bring to pass some ugly things against the Ninevites and the entire Assyrian race - this would be the Extreme version of the Death Penalty, and it was well deserved. Just for the record, the Assyrians were the ones who invented crucifixion in the 1st place and also the battle tank, in the form of armored chariots that literally cut their way through opposing armies.

But, as I said, I see more of God's love in this book than I see of His wrath. Look as vs 3: "the Lord is slow to anger and great in power, AND the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished". God had shown Ninevah great love by sending Jonah to them to bring about repentance on their part. Now it is 150 years later, and Ninevah has repented of their repentance, destroyed the Northern Jewish Kingdom of Israel and are still harrassing the Southern Kingdom of Judah. And still God is trying to get them to change via Nahum's prophecy and He ended up giving them another generation before finally having to execute the Assyrians for their high crimes against God's people and all of the peoples in that part of the world. God's love was forced to execute the Assyrians in order to protect the rest of the world from this horde of evil.

If God is the same Past, Present, & Future, will He ever be able to change this idea, "the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished"?

Now 1 final thought from the New Testament:

Romans 13:1-5

It's interesting to note that this is the only passage of Scripture that sets aside any specifications for man's governmental authorities. Lets look at a few highlights here:

"For there is no authority except from God" vs1

"he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves" vs2

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil" vs3

"for it (gov't) is a minister of God to you for good, But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil." vs4

Chris, what is a sword used for? Spanking or Killing? The death penalty, as administered by the gov't, is a minister of God FOR GOOD according to the Apostle Paul, a man inspired of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on & on with this, but I think this is enough to show scritural support of the death penalty. It is consistent evidence that shows that the death penalty has been enforced at God's command throughout all the covenants God has made with man. And since we have been given no "new" New Testament, the words of Paul in Romans will have to remain as our modus operandi (mode of operation) - that is if we want to be true to the Scriptures.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

So I guess you believe you have a better understanding of scripture than these Bishops and other learned people. What credentials do you have as a Bible Scholar?

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

Wellllllllllll.....let's see....

11+ years as a Rocket Scientist..... 6 years of Seminary study....... 2 years as a church Ministry Team Leader....... 2 years as a church Deacon....... 2 years as a church Elder........ 5 years as an Associate Minister & Preacher of the Gospel.......

I'd venture to say that I've seen more Bible in the past 10 years than you will see in your entire lifetime!

Let me warn you about something - NEVER make the mistake of thinking that just because a person has a degree or a title like Bishop that he or his understanding of scripture is superior to anyone else's.

The Bible was written in common language so the common man could understand it. Historically it has been folks like Bishops, Cardinals, & Popes that have really erred in their understanding and practice of Scripture. They brought us such great events as the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the sell of Indulgences (for a price, you could enjoy any sin you wanted).

God is no respecter of persons & neither should you be. Look close, listen to others, but always test every person's words against the Bible. Don't be one of the blind that follow the blind.

Oh, here's a great example right out of today's news - Jesse Jackson has announced that he had an extra-marital affair which has resulted in what is now a 20 month old baby girl. But isn't Jesse supposed to be well-learned & well-respected? Oooops.............obviously he wasn't as well-learned as some thought he was.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

But.........

If you're still looking for credentials, let me add some more:

I originally attended College on a music Scholarship.......... I graduated Magna Cum Laude from High School............. On multiple occassions rated as superior performer at All-State Solo & Ensemble Contests............ Member of National Honor Society............ Member of JR. National Honor Society.......... I was Hall monitor in Elementary School......... And I was a cute baby! (just ask my Momma)

Does that help?

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

Mark -

Love your answers!

We do get "wrapped up" in titles/credentials, etc. I normally wouldn't use mine, except that people keep saying "do you know more than..." or "what makes you so smart.." etc etc. So I list it. I really think that many of the newer posters do not understand that the "old-timers" are heavily credentialed and experienced in theological and ecclesiastical matters. I keep telling myself that I need to finish my (second) book, so when someone asks "Did you write a book or something?" I can say, yes!

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

I'm a "Dr." as well. Not an MD, but a Ph.D. organic chemist. I feel comfortable is stating that attending a seminary or university doesn't mean you are a scholar.

Mark: Being published in respected peer reviewed journals or other similarly reviewed works is generally a reliable sign of scholarship. Being involved in a controversy about the teaching of creation/evolution in the public schools doesn't make you a scholar either. My apologies if I have misidentified you as the high school physics teacher. As I don't know the details, I'm not making a judgement as to whether the activities of the teacher (you?) in that case were appropriate. It is certainly conceivable that a discussion of Creation could be thought provoking and appropriate.

My question of credentials is still unanswered. Please direct me to references of scholarly publications that have your name as the primary author.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

Chris:

Seems like you are not bothering to answer the arguments. Your question was not "Who here has published peer-reviewed papers and articles"; your question was "Do you consider these arguments to be flawed". Your question was answered. It's your turn to present your arguments against those answers. Simply saying, "You aren't published, so I don't have topay attention to what you say" is insufficient. If you have a case to put forth, please do so.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

Chris

I am much more concerned with local souls than I am with national recognition, therefore that is where my ministry has manifested itself. I was published once in a weekly publication that is put out by our brotherhood - the Dec 21,1997 edition of The Christian Standard. Ironically, my comments were focused on the state of education in our Bible Schools & Seminaries.

You obviously have confused me with someone else as I have never taught in the Public School system - although my wife has - in Special Education. However I do teach, everyday as a matter of fact. We homeschool our youngest child (12 years old) and we graduated our oldest last June, he is now one of the USAF's newest Aerospace Propulsion Technicians at Warner Robbins A.F.B. in Georgia.

I also teach every Sunday at Church and have done so for the past 10 years. Sometimes I teach twice on Sunday when you consider that my sermons are predominately teaching sermons. I was named as Teacher of the Year at Church in 1996. I was even requested to teach a week of classes at one of our Missions in Jamaica in 1995.

In my Seminary work I won the Preaching Award in 1995, highest GPA honors in 1995 & 1996 (4.0 GPA), and the Old Testament Studies Award in 1997. Also in my secular job at Cape Canaveral I was awarded the Director's Merit Award in 1998.

As you can see, I may not be a great writer and I don't have a Ph.D. (at least not yet) - but I have managed to get around a bit.

Chris, tooting my own horn leaves a bad taste in my mouth - I guess that is why I don't try to publish things.

Let me ask you a question now. You obviously are a learned person in the field of Chemistry, a noble & difficult discipline - I salute you on those efforts. But have you ever had any specific training in Biblical disciplines? Are you a part of a church body or were you raised in a church of some type?

I don't ask these questions to be pernicious, but to understand where you are coming from. Learning how much you know or don't know about the Scriptures can help me tailor my posts in a way that would make the most sense to you. I know that most of the people I know with backgrounds in the different fields of Sciences tend to have a harder time grasping some of the doctrines of the Bible - not because they are ignorant, but because they have been programed over the years of study to be a little more skeptical and resistant to new & different concepts - especially abstract concepts like an all-knowing, all- seeing, all-powerful, timeless God.

Like Dr. Jon said, there are several very credentialed men that visit this Forum (like Dr. Danny Gabbard) and I hope that they may join in and even lend their views on my exegesis of the above mentioned Scriptures concerning Capital Punishment.

Maybe now you can see where I'm coming from.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2001

Mark: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am not a Biblical scholar. Although I have an advanced degree, I don't even consider myself a chemistry scholar. I try to understand Scripture, but I am dissatisfied with my level of comprehension. I hope that some day God will help me understand it. I also hope to some day to know as much about the Bible as you and others on this board.

Because of my limited understanding of the Bible, I have attempted to locate sources that can help me. Because people interpret the Bible very very differently I need a way to decide who to listen to. This is way I questioned your scholarship in the field.

Sam: I am not knowledgeable enough to debate the points Mark brought forth. Neither did he answer the points in the references I noted.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Chris

I appreciate the honesty of your reply. Dissatisfaction with one's current level of comprehension is the first step toward true learning. Essentially, that is the exact same reason why I returned to church after my childhood and began deeper studies when the opportunity was made available. I was tired of hearing the same regurgitated opinions that were being spoken every Sunday. I wanted facts, I wanted evidence, & I wanted to know how to discern those facts & evidence.

Fortunately, I found a group of Churches (Christian Church/Church of Christ) that claim to preach nothing but the Bible - no creeds, no opinions, & no dictates from a higher authority (Bishop, Cardinal, Pope, Counsel, etc). In my own studies I have found their claim to both sound and noble, wishing to only do (or not do) what God & the Lord Jesus Christ has commanded through His recorded Word, the Bible.

I think if you continue to ask questions on this Forum and keep an open mind concerning the answers, you will learn about much of what you seek - I know I have. Yes, many will disgree over certain issues, and that's OK, because if we knew ALL the answers that would make us God - and I sure ain't big enough to fill His shoes.

If you are really serious about learning how to interpret Scripture for yourself, you need to spend some time learning Hermeneutics - the Science of Interpreting Scripture. Believe it or not, much like Geometry, there are specific, generally-accepted rules for interpreting the Bible. If you can't get into a Seminary-type class for this, you ought to at least read up on it. You can do a search on Amazon.com under Hermeneutics and find plenty of books on it. Personally I can suggest Bernard L. Ramm's "Hermeneutics" as it is fairly thorough, but deals with the different principles in a "short & sweet" way. Besides, it is less than 100 pages and inexpensive - always a good quality :~).

As time allows, I will try to shoot a few holes in the opinions on the Sites you listed - but as you can tell from my activities above, I keep a pretty busy schedule. I thought that the best first step was to present sound opinions in opposition so that you could mull them over a bit before coming to any conclusions.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Danny and Mark: Wow. It looks like we've moved beyond flaming each other. What a relief! I would like to recieve the manuscript noted by Danny and will check into the subject matter noted by Mark. Peace.....

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Chris;

I see a strong advocate for the death penalty in the apostle Paul. He accepted the "rightness", or the "approporiate-ness", of the death penalty for some crimes. He makes it clear that he does son in Acts 25:11, where he stands before Festus and makes this declaration:

"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying;".

He then goes on to say that he has in fact NOT had any capital charge brought against him. But he establishes in that short statement that there ARE crimes for which death is the appropriate punishment. He does not delineate what they are. But he makes it clear that the concept is valid.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2001