In a NY Times Editorial today, Clinton suggested electoral reform including restoring the right to vote to felons.

Two thoughts come to mind.....

1. That would increase the base of the Democratic party.

2. Clinton is insuring his right to vote later on...after his conviction???

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Answers

Both....and it's not Clinton bashing....it's exposing evil.

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Uh....no!

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Chris....

Unfortunately for you, your definition of the words "hate" and "love" are shaped more by left wing liberal politics as opposed to biblical definitions.

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

Chris....

In order for change to take place....there must be confession of a problem.

To this day....he blames the Lewinsky thing on those "wascally Republicans."

No....I don't believe he can change. He thinks too highly of himself.

And by the way Craig....if you think him and his gang "are out of here" on Sat.....you are seriously delusioned.

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

Words Chris....merely words.

The same words when he shook his fingers in the face of the American people and said...."I never had sex with that woman."

Just last week.....he blamed the Republicans for the whole impeachment "ordeal" as he put it.

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

There is little doubt....that Gore won the popular vote.

What has become evident.....is that margin of win....has diminished since what was previously reported.....and one wonders....if the degree of scrutiny was applied to others states....as it was in Florida....just how much that would be diminished.

One side note.....the Miami Herald recently finished the "recount" of those 10,000 undervotes....(you know...the ones the Gore team said were disenfranchised voters). Their result???? Bush had a net gain to the lead he already had of 6 votes. Boy....have the Democrats gotten quiet all the sudden.:)

Anyway....it don't matter.....because.....it comes back to....what standard did they use....and since Florida law was so ambiguous....it become rather capricious deciding how to count what chad.

Florida......needs to shore up its regulations previous to the next election....as probably do a number of states.

One good thing that came out of all this mess....is that again it was underscored.....every vote counts.

Now....if we could just convince the people in our churches of that.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Is this the Christian church forum or the Clinton bashing forum?

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Do you ever weary of spewing hate and bile?

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Hate will eat you up. I don't think this is what God has in mind for us. Love your neighbor, etc...

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Chris,

It's OK to love your neighbor, but when he sins and we let it slide out of "love" - we end up loving him straight to hell. How many times did Paul point out sins in different churches in his epistle letters - more than I can count. Did not Jesus, in the letters to the 7 churches in the book of Revelation, point out their sins and even threatened to spew out 1 of those churches if they didn't change?

Pointing out sin to a sinner IS the Love of God in action - loving a person enough to try to bring about a necessary change in their life so that they can have a proper relationship with Him. That is one reason why Bible study is so important - you can't read more than a few verses of scripture and not see a fault in yourself that needs correcting. And if you can't see it for yourself, isn't it nice to know that a brother in Christ will be there to show it to you so that you can change? Afterall, we ARE our brother's keepers.

Unfortunately, when the sinner has hardened his own heart to the point of say...........a Bill Clinton, then confrontation may have to get ugly to bring about a change. This is unfortunate, but it is the reality of mankind - people get awful set in their ways. It's like the Warden in the movie "Cool Hand Luke" used to say...."What we've got here is a failure to communicate....some people just can't learn".

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2001

Well guys,

You only have 'till Saturday to get in your last shots at Clinton. Then, he and his whole gang are "outta here".

"You may fire when ready, Gridley"

TO MARK - Although you express a nice sentiment about being your brother's keeper, your line about "confrontation may have to get ugly to bring about a change" doesn't wash. Change Clinton? Are you kidding? And get a leopard to change his spots too, I suppose.

(:raig

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

You're right, Craig.

Clinton is never going to change - Satan has rewarded him too well over the years for his perversions. But as long as there is still life left, there is always hope.

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

Mark: You are right that sometimes a confrontation is required to bring about change in a sinner. You are also correct that loving someone can mean having some difficult conversations with them. It is clear that Clinton has made some terrible moral choices and that he has hurt his family and degraded the office of the presidency with these actions. However.....

How do you know that Clinton can't change? The Bible has some great examples of the Lord doing amazing things even with the greater of sinners. My understanding of God is that he can and does change the darkest of hearts. It happens ever day.

Do you believe that bashing him on the internet will help help save Clinton? If not, why do it? I unfortunately see this mob mentality too much from the Christian right. Wouldn't our time be better spent praying for him and for GWB?

I hope the love shown by Jesus Christ toward the sinners of his day will fill your heart.

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

Mark: I missed your comment that since Clinton is alive, there is still hope for conversion of his heart. Glad to see you believe in the power of the Lord.

Danny: Do you believe Clinton can change?

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

Danny: Find below Clinton's admission of his relationship with Lewinsky. I don't see evidence supporting your claims he blamed this on others. While he wasn't as graphic in describing his relationship as you would have liked, he certainly did admit he was wrong. He did enough to damage the presidency. Do you believe that nation or his relationship to God would you have strenthened if he stated on national TV that she gave him oral sex in the Oval Office or that Ms. Lewinsky used a cigar as a sex toy in his presence?

"Good evening.

This afternoon in this room, from this chair, I testified before the Office of Independent Counsel and the grand jury. I answered their questions truthfully, including questions about my private life, questions no American citizen would ever want to answer.

Still, I must take complete responsibility for all my actions, both public and private. And that is why I am speaking to you tonight.

As you know, in a deposition in January, I was asked questions about my relationship with Monica Lewinsky. While my answers were legally accurate, I did not volunteer information. Indeed, I did have a relationship with Miss Lewinsky that was not appropriate. In fact, it was wrong. It constituted a critical lapse in judgment and a personal failure on my part for which I am solely and completely responsible.

But I told the grand jury today and I say to you now that at no time did I ask anyone to lie, to hide or destroy evidence or to take any other unlawful action.

I know that my public comments and my silence about this matter gave a false impression. I misled people, including even my wife. I deeply regret that.

I can only tell you I was motivated by many factors. First, by a desire to protect myself from the embarrassment of my own conduct.

I was also very concerned about protecting my family. The fact that these questions were being asked in a politically inspired lawsuit, which has since been dismissed, was a consideration, too.

In addition, I had real and serious concerns about an independent counsel investigation that began with private business dealings 20 years ago, dealings I might add about which an independent federal agency found no evidence of any wrongdoing by me or my wife over two years ago.

The independent counsel investigation moved on to my staff and friends, then into my private life. And now the investigation itself is under investigation.

This has gone on too long, cost too much and hurt too many innocent people.

Now, this matter is between me, the two people I love most — my wife and our daughter — and our God. I must put it right, and I am prepared to do whatever it takes to do so.

Nothing is more important to me personally. But it is private, and I intend to reclaim my family life for my family. It's nobody's business but ours.

Even presidents have private lives. It is time to stop the pursuit of personal destruction and the prying into private lives and get on with our national life.

Our country has been distracted by this matter for too long, and I take my responsibility for my part in all of this. That is all I can do.

Now it is time — in fact, it is past time to move on. We have important work to do — real opportunities to seize, real problems to solve, real security matters to face.

And so tonight, I ask you to turn away from the spectacle of the past seven months, to repair the fabric of our national discourse, and to return our attention to all the challenges and all the promise of the next American century.

Thank you for watching. And good night." August 17, 1998 President Bill Clinton on National TV

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2001

Chris,

Danny is exactly right. They speech you quoted was not an apology or confession for his sins. We was merely expressing sorrow over the fact that he got caught.

How can I say that? Simple, my dear Watson (Hawkins :~). In this particular instance there are at least 2 unrepented sins evident - Adultery & Lying. He said in front of all the world that, "I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky". That was a lie, because he did have sex with that woman, and his act with her was adultery by every definition offered in scripture or in legal circumstances.

He did NOT apologize for having sex with that woman, he apologized for inappropriate behavior - 2 totally different things. Calling her "chubby" would be inappropriate behavior, but he didn't do that - instead he had sexual contact with her, i.e., he had sex. He said it was "a critical lapse in judgment" - no it wasn't. Ordering heavily spiced pizza at midnight is a lapse in judgment, coercing a young girl half his age to perform lewd acts on him (while at work none-the- less) is a violation of her psyche and diginity - something that will follow her all the days of her life. It was an evil & lustful act, period.

He also said, "while my answers were legally accurate, I did not volunteer information" - The Bible calls a half-truth a full-fledged lie! He lied to the world by saying he didn't have sex with that woman and has not recanted that statement even unto this very date.

Chris if you followed at all closely what was being said by Clinton's aides & supporters at that time you would know exactly what Danny is talking about. Everyone said the Impeachment was a "witch hunt", just the Republicans wanting to make him pay. Kenneth Starr, one of the hardest working & intelligent people to hit Washington in the last 40 years, was maligned in every statement a Washington Democrat made. Even Gore, when he tried to cover his dirty tracks during the election, said that Slick Willy did a "bad, bad thing", but that the Impeachment was a sham, a political ploy. And I have heard within the past week or so, statements made on different news programs that still insist that Clinton was "wronged" by the Impeachment and that his "legacy" might be harmed by it. I pray that is true - the last thing I want said about my generation is that we elected & re-elected the most perverted President in American History and then did NOTHING about it.

I'm sorry Chris, Bill as of yet has not either apologized nor confessed his sins & crimes to me, an American citizen that was lied to and morally offended by his actions. And if he can't even confess this to me, I tend to doubt that he could do it before a Holy God either. Until he does, I cannot, and am not, morally or scripturally obligated to forgive him. (No place in Scripture records an instance where forgiveness is offered unless it is first sought by the offender.)

That is why I doubt he will ever come to repentance and salvation - it just is not in his character. Personally, I think he is a habitual, pathological liar - I truly think he does not even have a clue as to what truth really is anymore. As such, he has brought himself to the point mentioned in Romans chapter 1 when God basically just throws His hands up and "turns them over to their own lusts".

Do I pray that he will change? Of course - just as I pray that Charles Manson and every other criminal will repent, confess, and seek a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But, as a realist, I do not hold my breath while I pray. Clinton brings me back to the "casting pearls before swine" parable of Jesus - Willy knows better, it's time to move on to reaching other souls that are not as hardened as he and may be more receptive to the Gospel.

But, I also do not wish to leave others deluded by the lies about Clinton not being immoral and that he was unjustly persecuted. A great many people believe that lie ("Christians" included) and they need to be made aware to resist this lie - for the protection of their own souls. That is why Danny still "bashes" (your words) Clinton - not so much to fix Bill, but to keep others from falling into the same trap that he fell in. That, my friend, is what Biblical love is all about - being your brothers' keeper. (Amazing how that keeps popping up, isn't it?)

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2001

So tell me, how do you know that Clinton didn't confess his sins to God and repent? You are speaking as if you know his every thought.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2001

Danny wrote in a 1/15/01 thread.... "Please do not question how much "I do" or "do not" know about a suject.....because in light of the fact that you do not know me or fully what I do....I'm afraid that statement would come back to haunt you."

So does this apply to Clinton as well? Or are you special? Do you know Clinton or fully what he does. Is it possible that he has confessed his sins to God and repented?

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2001

Chris

I never professed to know Clinton's mind - all I can see is his actions and hear his words. Like I said before, he has not repented of his ways to the American public as of yet since we have not heard the words, "I DID have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky". If he has confessed his sin to God, then his actions betray his words. By Webster's defintion, what would that make him?...................A Hypocrite!

Jesus Himself plainly said that hypocrites would not enter the gates of Heaven. If I (and many others) can see this so easily in him - you know full well that the God who knows the minds of all men has seen through his smoke screen as well. I really wish he would come clean with America, thereby saving his "legacy" and his soul - but again, I ain't holding my breath.

I know you want proof of his failure to come clean, so here it is. You questioned Danny's remarks about Clinton still blaming the Republicans for his problems. So here are his quoted words straight from the January 22,2001 edition of U.S. News & World Report:.......

1. Concerning the recent election: "By the time it was over, OUR candidate had won the popular vote, and the only way they could win was to stop the voting in Florida." (page 8)

By the way that is a double lie - Florida voted on the same day as the rest of America, it's just that the Supreme Court decided that THEY wouldn't be allowed to manufacture anymore votes. And 2 - Most all of the states have since conducted unofficial recounts (by independant agencies) and it seems that Bush picked up a significant number of votes nationwide. The last numbers I heard was that Bush had a popular vote win by around 100,000 votes by those recounts. But then again, the Liberal media has done their best to hide those numbers.

Now for the second Clinton strike:

Per Mike McCurry, his former press secretary: "Clinton tells his friends he still holds Republicans responsible for that debacle, even though he admits he made a "terrible mistake" by dallying so recklessly and self-indulgently with the former White House intern. But he insists that it was not an impeachable offense and that he was hounded by what his wife called a "vast right-wing conspiracy." (page 25).

Chris, you can say what you want, but the evidence clearly shows that Clinton was wrong and that he still maintains his innocence by blaming others for his problems. By Biblical definitions, that is NOT repentance and it is NOT confession. Therefore, his words, and your words in his support, mean NOTHING until backed up by the Proof of his Repentance.

That is not hate, that is not politics, that is not prejudice - it is just pure fact. You and Bill can choose to accept or deny that fact - but that DOES NOT negate the fact itself.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2001

Mark, RS,

"Rocket Scientist".... Funnin' you.... :-) Just throwing credentials around!!

Can you please divulge your sources for the following "The last numbers I heard was that Bush had a popular vote win by around 100,000 votes by those recounts. " Thanks!

Robin, RA30 ("Retired At 30")

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Robin

I really can't disclose those sources because of what I had said, "I HEARD" that was the case from several fellow workers who had seen it on a TV news program - which one I am not sure of. As such, it is here-say evidence which I haven't had time to confirm yet.

But I have seen some of the reports from Florida counties that have completed unoffical recounts and their results, if continued at a national level, would indeed result in a Bush popular win. For instance, some of the precincts in my local county of Brevard had a 100% vote for Bush - I think that speaks a lot for itself. Also, most all of the "uncounted" ballots from Florida (the ones with hanging, pregnant, dimpled, etc. "chads") had no indication of votes for any office other than President. When some precincts had up to 50 items to vote for, I find that RATHER suspicious - either a lot of votes were being manufactured or a lot of people were somehow coerced/paid to come in just for the occassion or else they just weren't very concerned about what is going on in their communities and Country. Personally, I think either of the 3 reasons should be enough to disqualify those votes.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Does "RedNeckHunter" mean you are a redneck that hunts or that you hunt readnecks? :-)

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001

Chris,

"Does "RedNeckHunter" mean you are a redneck that hunts or that you hunt readnecks?"

Well, that depends on what kind of Mood I'm in at the time..:~)

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2001