I recently read of a minister who pastors a 7000 member church, which has a reputation as one of the best cell based ministry churches in the nation. Most would consider his ministry very successful, and I'm sure most ministers would love to have a church as large as his someday. He attended an international conference which hosted a special workshop for pastors serving churches of over 100,000 (that's not a typo). As one used to being considered successful it gauled him that he wasn't invited, and he had to see who was. When he stuck his head in the room he was driven to tears as he saw a group of 30-35 men with not one American in the group.

I think we're missing something. The largest church I've ever read of in this country is "only" 14,000. That's not even close to 100,000. The world's largest is Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea with 750,000. What do they know in other countries that we don't?

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2001

Answers

The number of members in a church is not to be used as a means of determining the success or failure of a ministry. God was very upset when David took a count (numbered)of his people. Likewise, Jesus commended the widow and called her offering which was the smallest greater than the others because she gave her all. A successful ministry is one where the minister remains faithful to death, putting his all on the altar, giving his best service to the master. He/she might minister to one or two, one or two thousand, maybe even more, but he gives his best every time. I wonder how many true believers are in thos mega churches. I would think that God would call more preachers; and in many small churches the masses would be reached. I know of large congregations in the US that preach prosperity gospel and draw numbers far greater than the Methodist for example. Blessings Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2001

Rev. Price I agree one hundred percent with Pastor Paris! God calls us for different types of ministry. And he wants all of his children to hear the words of Jesus Christ. As you become more familiar with AME churches you will see we come in all sizes and we do have churches with over 15,000 members. Are sisters and brothers who pastor these large churches are to be applauded for there is a lot to oversee, staff, congregation, ministries etc. I suggest we keep them in prayer. One of the things that attract me to the AME church is the emphasis on "equipping the disciples." I know God calls me specialized types of ministry, in the past I have been and Aids Chaplain, prison chaplain, campus minister and pastored churches. I now am doing rural ministry. I am blessed for my Presiding Elder and Bishop knows that is what I feel called to do and I am happy. There is great discussion at the moment about the "Willow Creek" type of ministries whether they are effective or not. When I was in seminary. I graduated from Princeton Seminary our chair of evangelism felt strongly that once a church had over 400 members, a new church should be started for effective ministry. Princeton focused on classical theology, there were few classes on liberation theology or womanist theology when I attended. So the emphasis was on growing churches and maintaining a personal relationship with each member. I might add that I have been a member of a mega church in New York City, and I felt very welcomed. When you joined the church you were paired with a mentor, who would sit with you and call during the week, you had that mentor and their family for a year. Also we were put into bible studies according to occupation, I was in a group for actors and muscians. It was effective ministry. Good question.

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2001

Good points folks, and I mostly agree. But I challenge the Body of Christ to reconsider their idea of success and how to get it. At 14- 15,000 our mega churches aren't mega at all. I hesitate to call these foreign churches "churches". They're more like supernatural manifestations. I don't think you can get that big in the natural. God is moving in a way over there we could see but don't.

With our wealth, technology, and population we in the US are often able to do anything better than other countries if we make it a priority. But churches like these aren't made by wealth or man's ability. I know a little about Yoido Full Gospel, and the Pastor, Dr. Paul Yongi Cho is a man like we can barely fathom. If the reports are true he resembles the Apostles of old. South Korea as a nation is sometimes called a "fortress of prayer". I suggest most Americans, myself included, don't know how to pray like they do anymore. When asked how he built his church Dr. Cho said "I pray, and I obey." It's reported he prays about 8 hours a day, and members of his church engage in fierce spiritual warfare on their knees 24 hours a day. They report their mission as constantly "sweeping the skies" of demons. They also direct prayer northward in an effort to prevent invasion and reunify their nation under Christ's banner. Watch the news. It's working. Those famines in the North didn't just happen. In his church they ring a bell to tell people when to stop praying, otherwise they wouldn't leave. In how many American churches do people have to be ordered to leave? As a result, it's reported that the general population of South Korea is 25% hard core Chrisitan, and they're moving rapidly toward 50%. That's hard to imagine, especially since they've only had a Gospel witness since the early 50's.

So that at least is part of the answer to what I think they know that we don't. The rest we'll have to rediscover. I've determined I'm going to find out with or without others, but I don't think I'll be alone.

Groping along in relentless pursuit,

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2001

Cal me doubting Thomas, but I don't believe he prays 8 hours per day much less 24. He may have some followers who are fanatics, deceived by his rhetoric. I find no scriptures that support such prayer. God never commands us to spend one-third of our time in prayer! That type of teaching is indicative of a cult worshipping the leader or his idea of God. If I can and do communicate with God in a few words, many thoughts, and some deeds (woefully I am not as through in deeds as in thoughts and words. God wants action from his people. The ABC's Faith is defined as taking Action based on Belief Confident that God is willing and able to keep His promises. Hebrews 11 is replete with ACTION words, the hero of faith took some action based on his belief with confidence in God. I suggest God would rather have us working diligently rathe than praying 8 hours per day. When we sleep 8 hours and then work 8 hours, I don't think so. Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2001

With due respect to Pastor Paris, I would suggest that there are both Old and New Testament passages that suggest enduring prayer. Daniel 10:1-13 shows a praying Daniel who spends three weeks in "mounring" (KJV) after beginning a supplication of God. This is somewhat different from the praying he does in chapters 8 and 9 where he "returns tot he kning's business" ('nomral' workday).

The New Testament citation is Luke 18:1 "Men ought always to pray". This is the beginning of a parable, so perhaps the context would marginalize the duration, but it is a starting point for a concept of enduring prayer.

With regard to the South Korean model, it is heavily driven by cell groups, the equivalent of our Class System (when it is fully functional). I would recommend investigation and study into its doctrine (Which I believe is AG), operation, and fruit before condemning it as a cult. Perhaps Bro. Price is onto something; we should learn from the current example of Cho and the historical example of Wesley, who first promulgated the Class System, and examine it from within the scriptural context. If the Holy Spirit can draw 3000 into the church on the Day of Pentecost, and God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", where is the modern Pentecostal preaching that reflects the initial example?

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2001

Hope I didn't muddle part of the issue. No one can physically pray 24 hours a day. I meant at no time will you find people not engaged in prayer there. They swap out. I'd imagine it's a mixture of scheduled shifts and spontaneous action. The church also owns a mountain north of Seoul called the Prayer Mountain. It's honeycomed with "prayer grottos" that again are occupied by someone 24 hours a day.

During my Air Force service I served a tour in Korea and became aquainted with a young AG lady. She told me one night she needed to get home early because she had to arise at 4 AM to get to the prayer mountain in time to meet her mother. Her mother was very strict about this. By the way, we were an hour south of Seoul, so to get on the north side of one of Asia's great metropolises from where we were was no small trip. Committment, sacrifice, priorities...warrior traits.

Lastly, I've studied a little on Dr. Cho's prayer method and used it myself (though not on a level approaching his). He takes the Lord's Prayer and uses it as a pattern. An analysis of the phrases of this prayer shows Jesus executing different types of prayer in each phrase. Example: "Give us this day our daily bread" equals prayer for physical needs. When we apply this method of prayer to what's going on in our world, nation, church, family, and lives we can kill an hour easily, but Dr. Cho uses it as a track. When he completes one lap he starts another, and this doesn't include time spent waiting, listening, and reflecting.

So here's someone with an extraordinarily high level of dedication, who will sacrifice sleep, food, etc. He also has a staff of thousands to help with the business and ministry ends of things (yes, he uses cells). Could he pray for 8 hours a day? I'm sure some days it's more, and some it's less, but yes, easily. I heard of one instance where in the middle of an international conference he simply stood up, said it was time to pray, and left. Priorities.

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2001

I forgot one other crucial point. Prayer in the Holy Spirit is "Spirit-driven prayer". Sometimes it's in tongues, and sometimes it's in your own language, but it'll make the hair stand up on the back of your neck. It is entirely supernatural. Now I'm speaking from experience. He doesn't have to "think up" 8 hours worth of words to say to God. He surrenders his lips and the Spirit is prays through him.

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2001

First, I am a prayer warrior. I just don't use a whole lot of fancy words, etc. Some of my most fervernt pprayers have been "thank you Jesus" when He has rescued me from another of my foolish acts, such as driving too fast while half asleep. Now what should we make of Jesus' teaching on prayer, Matthew 6:5-8? I believe this means that prayer ought to be very personal and sincere. I don't think He was teaching against public prayer, but certainly the "vain repetitions" would encourage me to be brief. Also, when prayer becomes a "duty to be performed on schedule" is it still prayer? Jesus had problems with the Pharisees because they were adept at keeping the letter of the law and disobeying the spirit of the law [Matthew 23:1-36]. Now I'm not a theologian but I seem to remember reading somewhere that religious folk used to cut themselves until they bled while praying. Also the sackcloth and ashes of both old and new testaments means nothing unless the heart has on sackcloth and ashes. I believe it was Paul who said our hearts ought to be circumsized instead of the physical circumcision practiced by the Jews.

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

I agree with Pastor Paris that prayer can, and should nbe, a personal experience. I'm not sure where public prayer began - was it a religious phenomenon?

I believe that Dr. Cho's extended prayer time was usually in a private place. I don't have his book here handy, but I may be able to research it later this week, if the discussion so merits.

With regard to schedule, I think there is a clash of ideas. Certainly discipline is an important aspect of our Christian walk. We should probably have a discplioned time for Bible study, as well s a disciplined and focused time for lengthy prayer. But there is also the spontaneous dimension of prayer (i.e., men ought always to pray) where just aa whisper may utter forth in response to a situation observed or experienced. On the positive side (biblically) of discipline, we see Daniel, who prayed rgularly and fervently, but then went on to the king's business (Dan. 5-8, for example), set aside specific times of the day for prayer. This is how he was caught by the religious folk of the kingdom (Dan 6). On the other hand, there are the religious, whom Jesus really disliked, who made a show of everything they did in "worship". THis is the sense that we get from Matt 6, and from many other scriptures where God is not impressed by vain words (Amos 8 comes to mind).

Each of us must make a choice in our spiritual conduct. The beauty of it is that God calls us each to respond and flourish in a unique way. There are those for whom a disciplined prayer life is needed, and there are those who are just as fvervent in their continual spontaneity. As a garden is beautified by both roses and azaleas, so is the bouquet of prayer that rises to the Father, so long as it emerges from our sincere desire to be in relationship with him, rather than out of a sense of religion that bears no eternal fruit.

-- Anonymous, January 08, 2001

I like the way you put things Bro Payne. I'm searching into other things. As I noted earlier, I believe we've lost some of what's there. I'm not arrogant enough to think we've reached the goal by any means. I'm groping, but God is good and He'll guide the true seeker to the old wells. Everything of course examined against Scripture.

One thing I'm just now learning is how God's giants have a tremendous level of intimacy with Father. It's as if they're right there in His lap. I want to know more about that, but more importantly, I want that same intimacy. Part of this seems to be seeking God's face and not His hands so much. In other words, seeking His person rather than His blessings. Think of the child who wants goodies all the time but ignores the parent who gives them. I shudder when I think of how we do that.

Then there is what's called Holy Habitation. At best we seem to know visitation, but to have God's presence felt at all times is something I want to find out more about. Also there is the Manifest Presence, where God physically manifests His presence in a place. I've read of many testimonies of this. There's no arguing or pleading to come to God in those times. It's like a wave (rushing wind?) Also there's "presence evangelism". This is where someone living in a state of Holy Habitation has the Manifest Presence about them all the time. It's said corrupt factory workers would kneel in Charles Finney's presence and beg to be saved because when he walked in the Manifest Presence came with him.

Then there's proper handling of the Holy, killing the flesh, new dimensions of worship...there's more out there. I WILL find out whatever the cost.

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

PS to all above conversations. Please don't receive any inputs as condemnation. Just be exhorted to never be satisfied. I'm speaking to myself first.

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

Pastor Rob your question was a good one to ask, for I know evangelism is a strong calling to you. And I am glad that you asked the question. I am curious what your denomination is doing,the assemblies of God in terms of evangelism, what strategies are they using? Last week the AME denomination had a church growth conference and Jerryl's wife Rev. Brenda Payne was one of the speakers, so church growth is a major concern within our denomination. The AME church is focusing on church planting and starting ministries in rural areas also. I think for us, we are not on task if we look outside our country and compare ourselves to attendence records of others. In the infancy of America there were great revivals and large numbers of conversion, this was due in part to having access to freedom of religion and powerful preachers, you mentioned Finney but within the AME denomination we also had great preachers who were commanding great numbers of conversions, I might add that we also had the repressive climate of post slavery and lynchings were an every day occurance. In spite of this AME pastors risked their lives to preach the gospel and also traveled by foot and horse to the west and canada to start churches. My home church in Billings Montana was founded in the early 1880's and has had a continuous ministry since then. (Wayman Chapel) Our churches on the continent of Africa are having great revivals in terms of attendence. For the AME church because of our history and being formed because of racism, we have kept the focus on growing our denomination and trying to be the best that we can be. We want all people to know Christ, and we welcome all people. But we have our own challenges and I think it would be self defeating for our denomination to focus on such issues as comparing ourselves to other denominations outside the US. I really hope and pray you will visit an AME church, I think it will give you a better understanding of who we are. And who knows you might end up an AME pastor ;-)

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

Sister Denise,

First let me say that AG people are human. We have more than our share of dead churches, corrupt pastors, and backslidden members. Like most of the American church, I believe we need revival. Still, God manages to use us as far as we're willing to submit to Him.

Our basic evangelism strategy boils down to what Dr. Cho said: Pray, and obey. Usually a new project starts when a minister or missionary gets a burden for a certain people group somewhere on the earth. It may be an ethnic group, a people held in a particular bondage or false religion, age, area, whatever. The calls are generally very powerful experiences. My church currently supports a family reaching out to the youth of Ireland, and another working among female drug addicts in Spain.

From there God gives them a strategy to reach that group. We don't dream up our own. Sure, we have policies and a base of experience, but unless the Lord builds the house... The family in Ireland is using music concerts. They know kids like anything loud, so they give it to them, and they get crowds of about 1500. The lady in Spain is establishing a live-in treatment center. My hero is a man I call a spiritual green beret. He goes into dangerous countries in Africa. New language to learn? Bring it on! Bullets flying? He'll tell you about miraculous protection. I think he's heading into Madagascar next, which a Muslim nation extremely hostile to Christians. He builds up native churches with training mostly. In Madagascar I think he'll be working with the underground church developing leaders. A man with his mission simply DOES NOT trust in his own abilities or wisdom.

The approach in this country is no different. My own pastor was powerfully called to a certain part of my city to reach those not interested in traditional church. God is giving him a strategy and it's working. In one year we're up to 80 people. God especially told him we'd be known as a faith church. Our bank account is regularly near 0, but we're meeting a $3500 a month lease, paying on 20 acres of land, have 3 pastors on staff, have a van, computers, and high quality projection system and sound system. We've taken in about $170,000 because people call in from across the country saying God told them to send money. Then we spend it. There's no room for hoarding in a faith church. At this point I see us equipping ourselves for explosive growth. A prophesy was spoken over our church that we'd one day number in the thousands, and God has confirmed that powerfully to me also. I can see the pieces falling into place.

In a nutshell, do as you're told. To succeed at that you must be in touch with God. Isn't that the method of the book of Acts? God gives you a burden for a people group, then tells you how to reach them, then gives you the means - all supernaturally. If you're interested in other things such as how we develop foreign works into maturity let me know.

-- Anonymous, January 09, 2001

Rev. Rob thanks for your response. I can definitely relate to having a burden on one's heart to start a church. For that is what I am doing. One of the reasons I love the AME church. Is that my Presiding Elder and Bishop know God has put this burden on my heart and have been so supportive! God gave me the name for the church, location, date to start and even the Bible study. Our bank acount is zero also. But since I have started the church God has provided! I praise God with all of my heart, for he is truly with me on this mission field.

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2001

ALL - I think we are back at square one in this discussion. Does the "success" (reaching the goals established by the organization) mean that God is involved in the organization? Or does it simply mean that talented men/women are doing work that produces results? For example, If I create and maintain a business that makes money, is that God or me or both of us? Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2001

Reverend Paris, I believe the answer is "all of the above". The reasons their figures (of all types) are up could be any number. One thing I'm looking for as I search for answers though is a return to house churches. In the Book of Acts they were in the Temple, but also moved from house to house. Once serious persecution set in house churches became the norm. The revival I'm looking for will be one in which all Bible- believing churches participate, and one in which we'll all be swamped. This will force a return to house churches. We'll also need some new leaders to be raised up in a very short interval, so we'll need to figure out now what the qualifications should be for a lay minister. Again, something like this won't be accomplished through a program. It'll be Spirit-driven. By the way, will persecution be part of the equation again?

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2001

Pastor Paris,

In response to your question...the answer is G-d, providing that you are G-d Conscious. If the lower self (flesh) motivates you, then the answer is the physical body. Anything that the physical body (lower self) manifests is temporary. Therefore, the money and business will soon fail, because the root was not divine. The scripture is quite clear...You will know the tree by the fruit it bears. When a person is G-d Conscious, then the Spirit manifests through the flesh, resulting in divine works. Yes, they (lower and higher selves) work as one with G-d in charge.

In Love and Light, Brenda

In Love and Light, Brenda

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2001

Sister Brenda, Please help me: Why do you spell "God" "G-d"? I noticed it before but thought it just an erroe but in that last post it seemed to be intentional. Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2001

Sis. Brenda's use of the dash is an old netiquette convention, stemming from our Third Commandment. In Jewish circles His name is so holy that even writing it casually is considered blasphemous. To avoid this happening, a "-" or "*" will often be used in place of the vowel. The letter of the law is observed, but the intent is still "clear" to the reader.

I first observed this convention in use on newsgroups around 1982.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

One need only watch the handling of John Ashcroft's nomination process to observe persecution in the modern press. Your aggreement/disagreement with his views is not so much the issue. What I hear being focused on is 1) he's against dancing, 2) he's against abortion, 3) he's a CHRISTIAN (gasp!).

Holiness is not well viewed in the media today. During the Olympics there were some athletes who wanted to praise God for the gifts they have been blessed with, but were usually pooh-poohed by the interviewer.

Christianity is not well viewed in the World Faith Movement today. Watch the UN this year for resolutions concerning faith, and religions of "exclusivity" (us). It is the UN's goal to create a world where all faiths are viewed equally. Judaism and Christianity both do not ascribe to this.

Yes, I think we may see a return to persecution.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

What does everyone think it may look like? Who might lead it if you had to pick from people in today's news? I have a few theories.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2001

I think that Bill Clinton is positioning himself to be the antichrist. The antichrist is supposed to come declaring himself as the peacemaker. Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2001