If the AMEC does not advocate abortion, then why not state definitely that we, as a Christian body, think that it is wrong?

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2000

Answers

The Bible points out that thou shalt not kill, and that includes aboution, which is evident. Okay now, why we dont go there as a Church and out right state this to first the members then to the rest of the world? Well I beleive that it's a matter of image. When I say this I mean that we are willing to compromise what is holy instead of Like Isiah said..Cry aloud spare not lift up thy voice like a trumpet and SHOW my people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. We rather preach a feel good message and scatch the ears of those who want to hear a watered down milktose perverted doctrine than to tell them that what Thus saith the Lord God. We as ministers will be held accountable and the blood shall be on our hands if we dont address the sins that lies dormant and also which runs rampant in our churches.

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2000

I believe the AME Church has spoken out on the issue of abortion and we are definitely against it. However I will search to try and find where it is. The discipline is a good starting point. If someone else finds it, please let us know. Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2000

I don't have a copy of the 1996 Discipline but I'm fairly certain official policy against abortion is not mentioned. The AMEC much like the Black Church in general, is often conspicuously silent about topics like this for fear it might alienate potential allies in the civil rights political fights. QED

-- Anonymous, December 21, 2000

You won't find those social issues addresses in the discipline. That's not the purpose of that particular document. There are two documents that speak to issues such as sexuality and abortion. They are called The Position Papers. Such persons as Dr. Frank Reid and Dr. Jaqueline Grant and others have written articles outlining how our church should stand on these issues. The Position Papers usually are distributed during the General conference, Though we did not have one this time. Please do your homework before you attack the church outright. It makes you sound more intelligent.

-- Anonymous, December 21, 2000

Dr. Tyler, You are indeed correct that the Discipline does not address the issue of abortion. I have my copy in front of me and there is no reference as I suspected earlier, in the index. You indicate that Drs. Frank Reid and Jacqueline Grant have authored Position Papers on the topic of abortion. Is this the same Frank Reid who happens to be Senior Minister & Pastor of Bethel AMEC of Baltimore, MD? The reference in your post is not clear for those who may lack immediate familiarity. I'm not familiar with Jacqueline Grant. What is her instituiional affiliation so I can obtain a copy of her position paper on social issues? You state that social issues is "not the purpose of that particular document". However, if people are not attendees at the General Conference where these Position Papers are circulated how can anyone know what is being discussed? Furthermore, no official policy is captured by Position Papers since in my professional experience these papers typically represent the views of the authors and not necessarily the organization. This is always the prefucntory disclaimer employed when papers of this type are developed. The majority of members therefore will not have access to Position Papers since they will not be attendees at the General Conference. Do you seriously propose that this elitist approach enhances access? The document, as you describe it, is formally titled "The Doctrine and Discipline of the AMEC". Doctrine looks at how arcane theological views can respond to social issues. Issues such as marriage, caring for the poor or irresponsible conduct is explicitly mentioned in this "document". The only logical conclusion one can draw from the original post is that any issue not codified in the Doctrine and Discipline is not official AME policy. I happen to have my opinion why abortion much like homosexuality is omitted from the Doctrine and Discipline for reasons previously discussed. I have little interest in "sounding intelligent". My purpose is to always be intelligently sound when I offer a comment. QED

-- Anonymous, December 21, 2000

Bill, you are correct about Dr. Reid. He is the pastor of Bethel Baltimore. Dr. Jacquelyn Grant-Collier is professor of Systematic Theology at the Inerdenominational Theological Center (ITC) in Atlanta.

I would encourage all contributors to this forum to focus on issues and refrain from ad hominem assessments.

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, December 22, 2000

My goodness Jerryl, what is an "Ad h...... " By the way, I encourage the visitors here to try the 10th Episcopal District Discussion sometimes too http://www.amec-10thdist.org and click on discussions. '

-- Anonymous, December 22, 2000

In the Old Testament times, there is a reference to some heathen people making their children pass through the fire. They sacrificed their children to a god called molech (not to sure about the spelling of that god's name.) That is the way I see abortion. When it is not to save a life, then it is because it is inconvenient to have a baby at that time. So, the US, by passing laws allow abortion for convenience, we are sacrificing our children to the god of convenience. Now, is there any wonder that we can't seem to raise our children; that we have to build more and more jails; that so much crime and evil is in the world. I believe that if this nation does not repent, it will go the way of all heathen idol-worshipping nations of the Old Testament times; and it will not be long either. God will destroy us, take us into captivity just as He did Israel. Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 22, 2000

ALL - I finished my search and Abortion is mentioned three times in the Discipline using the same words each time. It is in the Missionary Society Section as part of the duties of the Committee on Social Relations. This committee is to be established at the Connectional, Episcopal, Conference Branch, Area and Local Level. The reference to Abortion is at the Connectional (Page 360), the Episcopal (Page 369) and the Conference Branch (Page 377) levels only. I won't qoute the Discipline here, but it appears that this committee is to recommend legislation to be considered at the General Conference. Another item on this list is Racism which is specifically addressed on Page 2, Item 7 as part of the Episcopal Salutation. I believe that Abortion is more dangerous and insideous than racism and ought to be denounced just as strongly as racism. Blessings Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 23, 2000

Rev. Paris, Thanks for the citations for the word "abortion". It is clear to me that the term is not developed in a policy context but represents one of many "social issues" which the Christian Social Relations Committee should research, study and make a report. What is taking this committee so long to make a sound theological recommendation about abortion? Either we support or reject. This is not like trying to figure out the Heisenberg Principle of Uncertainty. Will there work be incorporated in the 2000 Discipline? My question still remains the same: If the Doctrine and Discipline of the AMEC does not have an unequivocal position about abortion how can we say that there exists official AME policy?

-- Anonymous, December 23, 2000

So, in reality, we are trying to straddle a barbed wire fence. Now if you know what barbed wire is. . . you are as country as I am. Blessings Pasto Paris

-- Anonymous, December 26, 2000

Can someone answer this question...what is more important, 4,000 babies being slaughtered in Americas abortion mills daily, discuss what the WORD of GOD says concerning this tragic force in our society or what the doctrine of the Church says? The Word of God will ALWAYS superceede the doctrine of man...well at least it should be. If the Word says that abortion, (which falls under murder) is wrong then there is no gray line in the matter. Oh of course if the mother has been raped or the the life of the baby or mother is threatened then it is okay......we must stand up and call a spirit a spirit. What wrong is wrong, under NO circumstances, did the Lord Jesus give shaded or grays areas in the Word. It was wrong for Pharoh, to kill the male children during Moses' birth, it was wrong for Herod to slaughter the innocent when Jesus was born, and yes it is wron even so today. In allowing this sin to take place, also compromising to accomidate those who participate in the practice, by presenting a perverted version of Church doctrine which not back up by the Word of God, the blood of many innocent babies will be on our hands. This is not only in the AME Church also in many churches around the world. We are permiting the sins of our fathers to continue thus wiping out a whole generation. doctrine

-- Anonymous, December 26, 2000

Gospeldove, Thank you for your comments about abortion. Your razor-sharp views on this "controversial" topic make for terrific discussion. I would definetly consider myself "pro-life" but this should not be misconstrued that I am always, unilaterally anti-abortion. The reason why abortion is such a divisive issue is the lack of consensus over when "life" begins. This is the "soul" of Roe v. Wade. Is it at the moment of conception or during the 2nd trimester of pregnancy? This is not a trivial question for it has passionate, well-reasoned supporters on both sides of the aisle. Also consider the case of rape. I think we can all agree that rape is reprehensible. If the act of copulation was an involuntary act perpetuated by a sexual predator should childbirth be also involuntary? Or, what if the woman's life is threatened by a complicated preganancy? Are you or anyone in an ethical position to assert that the value of the unborn exceeds the value of the mother? Again, I caustously side with the pro-lifers but recognize that there are legitimate exceptions which might warrant a woman to exercise choice [rape & dire health concerns]. Nonetheless, it is still inexcusable for the AMEC to not have something developed which presents a sound theological position about this issue. One thing we as AME members can learn from the Roman Catholic Church: Take a doctrinal position, communicate it to your members and defend it vigorously. The Roman Catholic Church is routinely criticized [by its members and non-members] for being out of touch with social reality in its opposition to divorce, abortion, sexual contraceptives, etc. But at least they do take an official position even if members vocieferously disagree. We cannot make the same claim. QED

-- Anonymous, December 26, 2000

Brother Bill...my razor I use is the sword of the Spirit...the double edged sword of the Lord....Okay we as the body of the Lord Jesus need to be mindful that is not what we say or act on is going to get us in trouble but like the Word of God says it is the "little foxes" those sins of omission and compromise and deliberaly closing our eyes to what we know is wrong. Like I stated before, there is no gray are in a topic like this, just in case someone might of got the prievous statement I said, twisted, even in cases like rape incest and life threating circumstances, there is adoption for those who are trapped in that situation and prayer always worked in changing the doctors report from positive to negative and vise versa. Since 1973, abortion has been mostly used a convienent method of birth control, rather in such extreme cases. Now since the dawn of the partial birth abortions, man has discounted life to an all time low. The Word says that God has predestined us before the foundations of the world and also that He knew us beofre we were form in our mothers womb. We must be mind ful of this. The Church is the greatest form of infulence in the world. Let us use this to shed the Light of the Lord upon this dark world.

-- Anonymous, December 26, 2000