What's your view on food stamps?

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Answers

I agree exactly. :)

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

as someone who comes from a low income, working class background, i find it extremely offensive the manner in which you you talk about people who, as you so eloquently put it, are "living off the government tit".

while i know that there people who abuse the system, i also know that there are people who genuinely need and benefit from this kind of aid. i don't think that food stamp usage should be regulated in the context of it telling people what it can and can not buy, and i think that getting federal aid for this sort of thing is NOT letting the government take responsiblity -- there is a stigma attached to these programs, and i think if you need these programs and get them, your life probably isn't all that great (just due to possible location, race/socio-economic status, education level, potentials for social mobility, etc)

as far as "low income couples propagating at your expense", it's called the social contract. you give your government something --your tax dollars--, and they give you something in return. while you may seethe at the thought of having to pay for the Gap mom to be able to buy food to pay for her family's food (how do you know how she got the clothes? they could've been a present, on sale,etc.? i know plenty of people who don't have much money who dress well.appearanc eis not indicative of income.) , if this program didn't exist, she (or anyone else) might be out robbing people for money to feed and clothe herself.

also: you might need this kind of help some day. and, there are lots of things your tax dollars go to that fund things you probably don't agree with. so. yeah.

i'm sorry this is such a long post, but these are programs that i a mreally familiar with,and i'm a big believer in the government's duty to take care of social ills, so i was pretty upset with katie's entry.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Haha. Ouch.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

My family and I were on food stamps for about a year or so a few years ago, and I still agree with Katie. There are lots of families that just need some help, like mine, to get a leg up back into the world again. But there ARE some families who abuse it. I've seen those same people.. A family with 7 kids, buying soda and chips on food stamps instead of like, bread and milk. But I also really sympathize will *all* people stuck in that situation anyway.. cause I know what a pain in the ass food stamps are! Unlike Katie, there are lots of people who treat you like total crap when you come up to their line with food stamps. And as if they ever came even within a week ontime. Well that's my rant-ish two cents. I'll be quiet now. :)

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Maria's post: "while i know that there people who abuse the system, i also know that there are people who genuinely need and benefit from this kind of aid."

My entry: "I'm not saying that everyone on food stamps/WIC is an irresponsible person and doesn't deserve to be getting them, but there are a lot of people who are." See also, "I don't mind my tax dollars going to temporarily help people who really need it."

As for what Noelle said about "getting a leg up back into the world again," I agree. Getting temporary government assistance is one thing... getting it for lengthy periods of time, especially when you don't really need it, pisses me off.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

I agree with you, Katie. I used to work in a grocery store and I saw the same things happen everyday. It's rather sad.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

As Katie briefly mentioned, I am a big supporter of governemt reform on the welfare issue. Ultimately, I want to see the whole damn thing go away. Not that I'm uncharitable. I just feel like I should have a choice in how the money that I make that gets distributed to charitable causes gets divvied up. If I think that the Peninsula Foodbank can do a better job feeding the hungry people in my neighborhood than WIC can, then I should be able to not put any cash into WIC via my tax dollars, and give that money instead to the Foodbank.

Something in Maria's post bothered me: "there is a stigma attached to these programs, and i think if you need these programs and get them, your life probably isn't all that great (just due to possible location, race/socio-economic status, education level, potentials for social mobility, etc)." Especially the part about race. Statements like these perpetuate the "victim culture" that is so prevalent in American society today. She's right, of course, that a lot of these people have lives that aren't "all that great." Is that necessarily a bad thing? No one said life was perfect, no one said life was fair. Some people are going to have a hard time getting things like food and clothing and shelter, and while it's a shame that has to be true, there's no reason for the big ol' gubmint to get involved in it. That's not what our federal government was built to do. Perhaps on a state level, some kind of assistance would be more appropriate, since there are less cases per department to look over. But what I want to see, and what I hope to get once we finally elect a Libertarian to the White House, is the complete elimination of the Welfare program. The tax money saved in such an elimination could then be used by individuals to PRIVATELY give to charitable organizations that provide the same service... better service... that Welfare/WIC do. Maria might then point out that the programs offered won't be nearly as big as they are now, and not as far-reaching. Welfare certainly wouldn't be the massive government tit it is now if everyone wasn't forced against their will to pony up for it. But I see less cash in the food stream as a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Welfare is under very little motivation to regulate itself and keep itself from giving out the money to people who are unworthy of it. Welfare is a Massive Government Agency, and we all know how efficient government agencies can be. They use their own inefficiency as an excuse to ask for more money from all of us. If we eliminate Welfare, not everyone is going to go and toss all that money at the Foodbanks of the world. Nor should they. With a more limited resource pool, the remaining non-profits would have to establish a more efficient, reliable organization. With their smaller staffs and limited geographic scope, these organizations would be able to look at Gap Mom and say, "No, you don't need this. Get the hell out of our building, we're trying to help starving people here." They can also distribute the food more efficiently, instead of on the coupon plan that food stamps are, which allows people to buy lobsters and shit. Try getting lobster from the Foodbank, and tell me which organization is easier to defraud.

Maria's comment on the "social contract" is interesting as well. This idea of a "Great Society" that helps each other out is a relatively new idea... it started with the New Deal of Franklin Roosevelt to bitch-slap the country out of the Great Depression. It was meant to be a temporary solution, but so was the Communist Revolution in Russia in 1917, and you saw how temporary that was. Prior to FDR, we were a lot more conservative in how we viewed the government's role in society. Terms like "social contract" tend to weave the government into every aspect of our lives. This is not a good thing. Government at a federal level in a nation of 250 million people will be woefully inefficient to handle all but the most basic of tasks: building a military, coining money, perhaps an entertaining intern scandal now and then. Maria says that she's "a big believer in the government's duty to take care of social ills." I obviously disagree. It has no such duty. There are plenty of organizations that currently exist (and plenty more that would in a society where the people are expected to take care of themselves instead of bellying up to Mama Washington for their free check) that can do the job a lot better than any government edifice ever could hope to.

"Yo' momma so dumb, she thought WIC stood for 'Welfare Is Cool'." - some dumb insult book I have somewhere.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

I was just going to bypass this one, since I can see it's becoming a touchy topic here. But I couldn't resist. Where I live, there are a lot of people on government assistance. I'm not saying that some of them might not truly need it...they might. I understand perfectly well that sometimes things happen in our lives, and you need help. Okay.

But I think you should be working and trying to get yourself out of the hole you've gotten into as well. You shouldn't just sit around on the government's lap just because you can. Have a little pride. I see a lot of people around me who take advantage of such programs...to such a degree that it's maddening. Yes, food stamps SHOULD be for only necessities. If you need assistance, then you are not in a position to demand luxuries like lobster. You should be glad you are in a time period in a country where you and your children aren't starving to death, as well might have been the case otherwise.

Then, there are others who make it their lifelong position to sit on government assistance programs. I worked in Hartford last summer, and it pissed the hell out of me to go on my lunch break and see all these perfectly able-bodied people sitting outside, radios blasting, suntanning and living the easy life. I'd come back after work andn they'd STILL be there...day after day. Is this fair?

Another summer, I worked in a day camp for inner-city children, also in Hartford. They got free breakfast, lunch, and Friendly's ice cream for a snack each day. I'm not begrudging any poor child to food, especially if they're a neglected foster child, or have parents on drugs (as many of them did). But it drove me totally insane to have a little kid 5 years old come up to me and tell me that they are SUPPOSED to get that food, because they're entitled to it!! No, you are not ENTITLED...you are fortunate to receive it, and you should be grateful that you can. Don't tell me this crap that you HAVE to get it. But at that age, it's nothing but a reflection of what their parents think and tell them. I shudder to think of how they'll be influenced when they have kids of their own. It's an endless cycle.

I know that tax money is meant to help people who need it. But I absolutely CANNOT STAND IT to see people who sit on their ass all day and get everything free anyways, while I and my family have to work all the time.

I've got to stop writing because I'm starting to infuriate myself, and that's no way to finish off a weekend =)

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Joanna speaks the truth. Too much Welfare, too much WIC, breeds a sense of entitlement. That's part of the victim culture I spoke about. "I'm underpriviliged, I'm a victim, you HAVE to help me. I'm ENTITLED to it. No thanks, I'll take the lobster live."

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Eric for President.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

I think food stamps and WIC are great as long as the people actually NEED them and use them responsibly. I have a friend who had a baby at the age of eighteen and got on WIC, which (in my opinion) she didn't really need, because she obviously had enough money to buy some extremely expensive clothes and feed her nicotine habit. So, in a nutshell, I agree with Katie.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

I never did and still don't know if I know exactally how food stamps work.. Just something I never looked into I guess. But basically, I get that you get a certain number of food stamps a month and then you go and buy food (I'm a quick one) So, if these people are really in need of the food stamps, then why not let them buy lobster? I mean if they want to eat well for two nights and not so great the other 29, then so be it. I do however see where Katie is going with her entry.. But they have the stamps, paid for by our taxes, nothing you can do once they are placed in their hot little hands, so instead of being so against these people, let's attack the fucking government. That's where the problems arise, am I right?

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Little known fact - my mom went on food stamps for brief period of time when I was a teenager. (Like I'm not a teenager still at 19, but I was like 14 or 15 or something.)

Regardless. My sister and I were so embarassed that we made her drive like a half an hour to go to a grocery store where nobody would know us.

People abuse the system, they do. It happens all the time. People will find a way to abuse any system that has been put into place to try to help them. And you know what? I would rather have some people figure out that they can buy steaks and lobsters, or that they'll get real change back if they use a $1 food stamp on something small, like a tootsie roll or a piece of gum... where was I going with that? Okay, I would rather have those abuses exist, people not really needing them, so that the people like my mom can have them when they need them.

So that people who truly are down and can't afford to feed their families (or, in the case of WIC, get proper nutrition during and after their pregnancy) have some means to feed their family until they can afford it. I would rather have the abuses exist than end the abuse by ending the programs.

But that's just me. I do see where you're coming from, Katie, and I respect your position. It *isn't* always fair, and it sometimes sucks serious ass, but that's how it is. Welfare isn't perfect, but it's there for the people who really need it.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

This is hard issue to discuss in a few paragraphs. I've talked about it before with friends and in college class rooms with strangers for hours at a time. I just have to wonder sometimes what we owe society or other people? Or is it just we only owe anything to ourselves?? I think I owe it to my friends to be honest, to my family to be honest; and to myself to be honest.

My family got help when I was younger once during Christmas and I got a old used toy that meant more to me now that I think about it than anything I had gotten before or since. The thing is that was from a private charity and not a goverment program.

I'm a believer in indivdual responsebility in most things. No one gets you off your.... butt to make a change in your life like you can do yourself. Friends help you but you have to move.

I think we give people excusese today for why so many things happen. We give them the entertainment industry to blame for their actions and their past to blame for their pains. I know how those pains can rule your life if you let it. But as with each person, our society as a world whole can not live on these things. We die a souless death if we have no individual responsbilities. If you give children excusses they will learn to use them. And I think they are now.

And this brings me to my view on goverment help programs as I call them. I also think the goverment does a very bad job in this sort of thing. I know it sometimes takes good people years to get goverment help; while others who are taking advange of the system lie and seem more in need and get the help faster. I don't think you owe the world anything in dollars to help. But wouldn't you like to know that someone would be there for you someday if you needed help beyond the means of friends and family. That is if you have any friends or family. The system is just screwed up to the point that I think it is a waste. The people who truly need the help aren't getting it. Their are a lot of goverment programs that the goverment should have helped get started but should then have been turned over to someone else to run. The goverment just doesn't run these things well.

I think I've said enough. I've rambled on and not made much sense proabably. I'm new around here. My more than two cents are in. This is a issue that is big. Help, yes but who should help and how should it be done. I have just promised myself that I will do everything I can to help my friends and family when they need me. And help strangers when I can. Maybe if more people did that we would not need goverment programs and could tell the goverment to kiss our collective backends. Maybe we can take care of ourselves. Ourselves as a world at large.

Then again I'm just a new person to this thing called life. I'm twenty five years old but didn't really start living and understanding anything in anyway until this year. I'm just one voice but a hack writer once said,"One voice can rage or it can ramble. Or one voice can change." Well, that's the writer in me coming out, sorry.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

If you truly believe these people only eat well two days a month and suffer the rest, you are sorely mistaken. They use the foodstamps for a couple of awesome meals and then rely on a foodbank to pick up the slack. I know because I work at my local foodbank.

I like where I work, because we have a bit more control over where the food is going. There's a mom at one of our local Kids Cafe sites (a place where kids can go after school to get help with their homework and dinner or a heavy snack) that has been restricted from coming inside the site until after her child has had dinner -- because she would eat his food and make him feel guilty for eating dinner when there was no food at home. BUT some people still get help they don't *need.* You can't get to each and every person that lies. You just spend a lot of time being thankful that those who really need the help are getting it.

In this booming economy where things should better, they're not. More and more people need help. The goal of my foodbank is to help children, senior citizens, and the working poor -- those who bust their buts to pay the bills but still don't have the income or education to get the income to also put food on the table. Do people still fall through the cracks? Of course they do. Who said they wouldn't?

But that smidgen of control, that little bit that might force someone to work, is worth it. Because then I know that I'm doing something worthwhile.

On another note. VOLUNTEER. You know that there are people who need help. You don't want the government to do it. But the few who do volunteer cannot do it alone, so you need to help, too. You'd be surprised how much my office loves to have someone come in for one hour once a week to answer the phones. During that one hour I get more peace and more work done -- and that means more people get help. 501c3's (non-profits) can use all sorts of help from building webpages to answering phones to designing brochures to asking for money from huge corporations to coordinating fundraisers to stuffing envelopes to just about anything you can think of.... If you think you have no skill for helping a non-profit, you're WRONG.

Thank you and have a lovely Sunday afternoon.

Be all that you can be -- at the foo-ooo-oodbank.

Treva, Special Events Coordinator for my local foodbank

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

hmm. so much to say on this issue ..

what it all really comes down to, is the social contract. we give our government something, they give us something in return. everyone throws a fit about paying taxes -- but besides paying for welfare and food stamps, taxes also pay for things like highways, public education, social security, etc. ie: things that are nessecary. welfare and food stamps and WIC _are_ benefitting people; like emily pointed out, there is always going to be abuse of the system -- who's to say that a private organization wouldn't be abused as well?

i hate the contempt that people have for poor people. it is NOT easy to get a job, especially when you are older, or have small children to look after, or have little qualifications. your 200.00 a week paycheck or whatever that you get from your job is enough to feed you, but if you have a family to raise, and bills to pay, it is most certainly not enough. and what -- poor people aren't allowed to wear nice clothes? just because they do not fit your view of what a poor person should look like, it doesn't mean that they are living in luxury. food stamps and a 200 dollar a month welfare check is _not_ living in luxury, either.

who is anyone to judge a person's financial situation by just looking at their clothes or what they do or buy? none of us have any idea what is going on in their personal lives ...

re: libertarianism. my biggest gripe with this political philosophy is that it assumes that people are good, and that once you get those tax dollars back, you will put it into charitable organizations. the thing is, that isn't going to happen. if everyone contributes and these people can get some help, then everyone is better off. like i said before, i'd rather have my presious little tax dollars going to pay for someone's steak than having them come into my house and rob me of my possesions so they can be able to buy that steak.

right.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

Last time I checked welfare checks weren't exactly winning lotto tickets. I have to go with Maria on this one. Few people in this world would give their own money to charitable organizations without being forced to. That's the way it is. It's a greedy world. Same reason Libertarians are so pissed off they have to pay for anything that helps the whole -- public schools, welfare, etc.

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2000

I've said it before and I'll say it again: A libertarian is a Republican that smokes weed.

-dan

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Oh boy.

Libertarianism: I'm a Libertarian, I don't smoke weed, and prior to becoming one I was a Democrat.

"re: libertarianism. my biggest gripe with this political philosophy is that it assumes that people are good, and that once you get those tax dollars back, you will put it into charitable organizations. the thing is, that isn't going to happen."

We have never believed that every single person would contribute back to the system. I like to believe I'd have a heart about it, but the fact is, if I got my tax dollars back, I probably wouldn't increase my charitable donations. I'd probably just buy more computer games. Some of us would, some of us wouldn't. What you have to ask yourself though is "Should the government REQUIRE you to be charitable?" which is what it does with tax dollars funneled into WIC, etc. You may believe it does as a result of this "social contract" you keep talking about. I have no such contract with society. I'm out for me.

I do believe that there are a lot more good people hiding out in the country than we are led to realize, though. I blame the socialist aspects of our government, along with the "victim culture" I spoke about earlier, for that. Part of the reason I don't donate to charitable organizations now is because I donate every week, when the gubmint takes cash out of my paycheck. It's trained me to expect them to handle the problems, and hence, alleviate me of that responsibility. I only hope that Libertarians take office soon enough that I can train myself otherwise.

"i'd rather have my presious little tax dollars going to pay for someone's steak than having them come into my house and rob me of my possesions so they can be able to buy that steak."

Not to be callous about the situation, but Libertarianism also believes in full gun ownership rights, specifically to protect you from hoodlums breaking into your house.

In the end, I have a feeling we'll run around in circles, because of the comparisons between the following conversations:

Maria: "What it all really comes down to, is the social contract."
Me: "There is no contract."
Maria (assumed): "Yes there is!"

Pat Robertson: "There has to be a God, the Bible tells us so."
Me: "There is no truth in the Bible."
Pat: "Yes there is!"

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Don't look now Katie, but that is republican "conservative" politics you are spewing. Welcome to reality.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Another problem with food stamps is they're too easy to forge and steal. The U.S. Mint has the highest security to keep people from walking out with bags of money. The DoA does not exactly have armed guards around the food stamp printers and they've had lots of publicised breeches of security. Since everyone has to eat, food stamps have become an underground currency. People have stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars of freshly printed food stamps and they eventually find their way to people who spend them on expensive food. I've seen people pay for a whole weekend party on food stamps and only paying real dollars for the booze. The DoA has been moving towards food stamp credit cards which should solve most of these problems.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

so much to say, so little time. i am not pat robertson, and that was an unfair comparison. what i am speaking of (the social contract) exists and can be proven. just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that you aren't a part of it.

eric said : "We have never believed that every single person would contribute back to the system. I like to believe I'd have a heart about it, but the fact is, if I got my tax dollars back, I probably wouldn't increase my charitable donations. "I'd probably just buy more computer games. Some of us would, some of us wouldn't. What you have to ask yourself though is "

thanks, eric. you have just proved my point. if people weren't required to put money in for to allviate social ills in the form of tax dollars, then a lot of people would think like you do and buy more fun new toys. so while you are playing your video games, families starve. and then they get hungry so they robe middle-class people with well paying jobs. but like you said, it doesn't matter since they have guns and can take care of the situation quickly.

why do people have such a big problem with helping those who aren't as priveleged? it seems to me that this is the best investment of my tax dollars. that, social security, public health care, and public education. i am lucky enough to have private insurance and go to a really prestigious college -- but i wouldn't have if it weren't for government money.

eric says : "I have no such contract with society. I'm out for me." hate to break it to you, but you do. you work, you pay taxes. you get/send postal mail. you drive on the highways. you've probably gotten government assitance in paying for your education. the military has saved you and your family's asses on more than one occasion. you want out of the contract? start your own island.

"Part of the reason I don't donate to charitable organizations now is because I donate every week, when the gubmint takes cash out of my paycheck. "

which you have said don't work. instead of complaining about how uneffective government agencies are -- why arne't you going out and helping the poor? why don't you go down to a poor neighborhood on pay day and buy some kids some food?

It's trained me to expect them to handle the problems, and hence, alleviate me of that responsibility. "I only hope that Libertarians take office soon enough that I can train myself otherwise."

but didn't you just say that you probably *wouldn't* donate the money to charity? as far as libertarians in office go -- if this ever happens, god help us. as william says, they hate anything that helps people as a whole. you are not the only person on this planet, buddy. there's a yiddish proverb that says something to the effect of ... "if you're only for yourself, then what good are you?"

so there.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

This mite be a better talk of a problem than I've seen on Tv with any of those guys in suits.

I think the thing of asking if we have a social contract to the world or our country isn't the real issue. That almost gets into the territory of a religious asking. The real issue is wheither or not the goverment is handling the money better than the people could to help others in charitable work? I think the goverment isn't handling it well. Ok, here is my opinion. If my taxes are going back to help the people paying them, then why does the education system in this country have so many problems? You say the money goes to repairing roads and such but except for main highways anyone who have traveled all over this country will tell you the roads are dreadful. Exspecially in small communities. They say states with lotterys, some of that money suppose to go back into the community. Ask most people from states with lotterys if it really has made any difference since they got a lottery?

Questions we all should ask is: Why should I do for someone elses life? If they didn't plan their retirement better is it my fault? Is charity something that should be forced?

I agree in that we've become a victim culture. I talk about that subject all the time to my friends. No individualy responsbility. We blame everything and everyone but ourselves and use things to keep from having to acheive life through our own back braking work. No matter how much it may surprise people there are women having kids just for the money, there are loop holes for the weathly to get past paying taxes; and there is a huge % of people on goverment help who could get off it but are now going to lean on it forever.

Do I believe most people would use more money for charity work if they had it? Yes. I think more would. I do charitable work and I'm a fairly greedy person in fact. I volunteer helping older citizens learn computers and my production company helps fund projects and helps young talents showcase their talent to the world at large. But if the goverment told me my business had to do this, I wouldn't.

The thing is I'm not a person who will say I have the big answer. But I can say that the problmes are there and they need to be fixed or the good that our goverment sets out to do will be destroyed by it's none ability to do that good work.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Wow. I'm just in shock of the insenstivity in this forum, on this topic... I don't even know where to begin, but here's a brief rebuttal:

1) The problem with the word, temporary, Katie, is that it's arbitrary. You say that people who temporarily need help are okay in your book. Well, over a life span of time, 3 years (WHICH IS THE MAXIMUM TIME ALLOWED ON TANF BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT) seems awfully temporary to me.

We don't have women who are living their entire lives on welfare anymore, because when they're not able to help themselves, we cut them off at 3 years and take the tit back, so to speak.

2) Here's an idea. We do live in a culture of victims. While I agree that there is a point that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves, its undeniable that certain classes, races and sexes are treated unfairly, poorly and start WAY back behind our prized White Middle Class Men at the starting line. Until we acknowledge that we all hurt each other every single day (you, yes YOU are racist. You may not be practicing plain or fancy racism, but if you're white, you're benefitting every single day from a system of advantages that is denied to minorities), and fix the problem, I see no reason to not acknowledge the fact that people ARE victims of their circumstances.

3) As to the things that people buy using food stamps? I'm sorry, but where did I read that just because you're down and out, you can't have a steak every now and then? And how do you know that the mother coming through your line didn't go to the store down the street and already PURCHASE her bread and veggies and eggs, because they were cheaper there? And now she's in your line, doing her comparison shopping, and buying the soda and the chips and whatnot? My point here is you can't judge people without knowing their circumstances. You really can't.

That's about all I have to say. If you want to learn more, you might try taking a Women's Studies class. There's significant talk of what gender, race and class mean in those classes and you'll learn an awful lot.

peace. a.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Elliott Smith traded a smoke for a food stamp dollar once.

-dan

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Um... write essays much people. Damn. Took me half an hour to get through these freaking posts.

I come from both sides of the coin here. When my parents divorced, my mom didnt have a job and had two very young children to take care of. I was 2, my sister about six months. So, in order to pay the bills and keep the house and feed us, my mom went on food stamps. She was so embarrassed by the situation that she wouldnt go to her local grocery store and instead shopped two towns over. Of course, the food stamp period was short-lived. She found a job quickly and got off of the program as soon as she could. This is a good example of how people should use the system. Temporary relief to a bad situation.

I worked for a grocery store for five years, out of high school. Like Katie, I watched people on food stamps buy better food than I ever could afford. I watched them pull out hundreds of dollars worth of food stamps out of their pockets and pay for their Thanksgiving dinners, not scrimping on anything. Lobsters, fresh fish.. things I would think of a excessive, were weekly purchases for a few of these people. Five years later, I would see the same people paying for their groceries with food stamps. Definately not a temporary solution.

I think people should only be allowed to have foodstamps for a year or so. They are a temporary solution while you make an attempt to find a job. Maria says jobs aren't that easy to find, but I dont agree. Jobs are easy to find, you just have to be willing to flip a burger or push some shopping carts. And if you dont feel you'll make enough to feed our family on that salary then get a second job, or a third job to make ends meet. Flipping burgers or pushing carts doesnt require a high school education, it just means you have to swallow your pride a little and be willing to do what it takes to be a contributing member of society, rather than someone who feels society "owes" them.

These programs are meant to temporarily help people who are having financial problems. I would hope that getting food stamps doesnt just come easily. I would hope that as a part of the agreement, you have to allow a job counselor to find you a job. That you have to be willing to give up the food stamps after a year or so. If you are going to live off of society, then you better be willing to make some concessions. I dont mind if you are dressed in GAP, as long as you didnt use MY money to pay for it. You better be a regular visitor to the Salvation Army and you better not be driving a Mercedes Benz.

All I know is that if the poor people are dressing and living better than me, then they dont need to have public assistance. I work damn hard for the money I make, and it infuriates me that a portion of what I'm making goes to "help" other people.

I'd rather my money go towards things like rebuilding schools, giving our children better supplies and computers. Instead, I'm feeding people lobster and supplying prisoners with TVGuides... sounds like a great system to me.

Hmm.. this turned into an essay. So sue me. Anyhow, my point is that if people use foodstamps properly, for a short period of time and use them wisely... then they are serving a good purpose. When people live on them for five years and dont raise a finger to get a job.. there's a problem.

Okay Katie... I answered your forum...

~Greg @ Commixion http://commixion.gbdesigns.com

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

A lot of you all probably aren't aware of the rationale behind food stamps. They're designed to increase people's food budget without significantly incurring additional government expenses. Under a food stamp program, an individual can buy, say $100 worth of food stamps for $60 (I have no idea what the actual figures are in the US - they're decided based on the amount of additional food income that is needed to increase an individual's food purchases while keeping them on the same indifference curve, if any of you have taken microeconomics). So the food stamp program is partially subsidized by the participants.

Joanna: I don't understand why you are so offended by the idea that children believe that they are entitled to eat. Did you withold lunch one day to put them in their place?

Eric: You say you would rather have your tax dollars go to private charity than the federal government. Then you say that you would probably spend the tax money you saved on video games rather than assistance. You're right when you say that are good, well-intentioned people in America who would pick up your slack in terms of charitable giving, but you're wrong when you say that they are currently subsumed in the "victim culture". There ARE people in America deeply committed to helping the poor and working for social change...but they're working with the nonprofits and community organizations you so admire and aren't making enough money to donate anything to charity! The people with money - the computer experts, the venture capitalists, and all the rest, including you - are the ones who don't give a shit and who would, in the absence of any government assistance, buy computer games instead of helping the poor.

Also, WIC is far less than 1% of the federal budget. You only donate a few dollars a year to it. If you really want to save your pennies, rally for arms reductions or a reduction in the national debt because these consume WELL OVER 2/3 of the federal budget.

I have never met a Libertarian who wasn't a privileged white male (okay, sometimes a privileged white female). Do you know what unemployment rates are in the inner city and in rural areas? Most new jobs are being created in the suburbs and the poor have no means of getting to rural areas. Do you know that it's flat-out impossible to feed yourself and two children by working full-time at McDonald's? I don't have anything to say about your ignorant comments about race and gender because all they do is illustrate that you have never made a sustained effort to get to know people different from yourself and learn from them, or studied racism and inequality in America at all.

Katie: I like reading your journal because even though you're young you've proven yourself to be open-minded and compassionate. This entry was an exception. I think it would be a really good idea for you to spend some time volunteering and getting to know people different from yourself so that you might understand their circumstances. You talk about how help should be temporary...WIC is, obviously, for single women with children. Do you have any idea, any idea, how hard it is to find decent, affordable child care in the US? Do you know that that women's outfit and her child's clothes weren't picked up a shelter? Rich people do clean out their closets, and Baby Gap clothes are often donated after kids grow. What gives you the right to judge this woman or where she's coming from? Her life has been more difficult than anything you've ever experienced.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Like the person above me stated, a single mother cannot afford to live off a job at McDonalds. There's rent, clothes, transportation, and child care we must consider. You can tell them to get a second job, but don't their children need a parent? I really don't know what the happy medium here is, I'm just stating what I think.

I also don't think Katie was all wrong in her entry. She was stating her opinion on these people that are dressed all nice with their kids dressed in Baby Gap. Yes, she made an assumption, but there ARE people that abuse food stamps. I think that's all she was saying. I'm too tired to read through the rest of the posts, but I think you all make really good points.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Oh yeah..

"What gives you the right to judge this woman or where she's coming from? Her life has been more difficult than anything you've ever experienced"

Although I agree with what you said on other points, I don't think you had a right to say that. Do you really know Katie's life? All you know is what she puts in her journal. You aren't her and you don't have a right to judge HER or where she's coming from. She does put her life on the internet, but she does not put every detail and you, nor I, can ever possibly know what her life has been like. :)

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2000

Until we acknowledge that we all hurt each other every single day (you, yes YOU are racist. You may not be practicing plain or fancy racism, but if you're white, you're benefitting every single day from a system of advantages that is denied to minorities), and fix the problem, I see no reason to not acknowledge the fact that people ARE victims of their circumstances.

Oh, I see. So you're saying that every white person who is not on some type of government assistance, be it food stamps, WIC, welfare, etc., is a racist. Just because this country is not entirely equal doesn't mean that every white person is a racist. I can't help being white. I can't help it that I may possibly be "benefitting every single day from a system of advantages." You saying that I'm a racist because of reasons beyond my control is ludicrous.

I love people who try to place the race card. What, every black person in America should be allowed to live off the government just because of what's happened to members of that particular race in the past? I'm well aware that things are not perfect now, but they're one hell of a lot better than they were 20, 30, 40 years ago.

You're only a victim if you let yourself be one. Ever think of that?

Do you have any idea, any idea, how hard it is to find decent, affordable child care in the US?

Yes, hence my question, "If you can't afford to have a kid, why have it?"

I think some people have missed my point here. Am I saying that there should be no help out there for people who are less fortuate? NO. I'm saying that either the government systems need to be reformed so there's less chance of abuse (that way the people who really need it can be sure to get it), or the entire thing should be left up to non- profit organizations who could do it better.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

I skipped over most of the replies here because they kept going on and on, I just wanted to say that I completely agree with Katie and Eric on this position, especially what Katie mentioned in her entry and again in the last reply before mine, if you can't afford to have a kid, why have it? I know we put a lot of emphasis on the importance of parenting in this society (horribly wrongly, IMO) but if you have a hard time supporting yourself, why pop out fifty babies? I understand that a lot of people don't believe in abortion, or can't have abortions themselves, and I don't condone adoption, because there are SO freaking many kids just waiting to be adopted in the world (though there's a hugeass waiting list to adopt white American kids, of course) but there's a little thing called BIRTH CON-fucking-TROL! There is NO excuse not to use birth control. You can get it for free if you can't afford it. Norplant, depo provera, et alia don't even require that you remember to take a pill every day. So there's no fucking reason for people who can barely support themselves having five kids and it's socially irresponsible (IMO) to have that many kids under ANY circumstances because the world is REALLY OVERPOPULATED! It's insane.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

Dittttttttto.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i wish to god i didn't have first-hand experience with all this and that middle/upper-middle/upper class white suburban kids weren't going to try to argue and dispute everything i said ! it's not even worth it, but i agree primarily with what maria says.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

...and I relate with what roxy says..

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing the race issue.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

I'm with Jillian.... I didn't see color; I attempt to remain that way despite what ___________ (society, parents, whatever you wish to plug into that spot) says or does to reverse that. But SOMEONE had to play the race card. We're all humans. Can't we just leave it at that and leave the race card out of this?

It's not my place to defend Katie, despite living with her and thinking she's awesome, but if you don't know someone firsthand, then you have no right to judge them for anything.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

geez. i am shocked and saddened by the amount of ignorance that has been displayed on this forum.

re: birth control. you can't get birth control so easily. norplant and depo are incredibly expensive to implant and take out, and the pill is also not cheap either. another problem is there is a lack of information about contraception. there are other forms of birth control that aren't depo and norplant and the pill, but people don't know about them, and even if they do know about it, they may not have acess or the money to do so. it's terrible that our society views sex as being a dirty act, and that a lot of school systems teach sex-ed as abstince based, instead of teaching safer sex. but that's another issue entirely ... (also: not everyone can use hormonal birth control. if you have a family history of bad health, and/or smoke, you can't use the pill or norplant or depo. this birth control has serious side effects. people are allergic to latex. or nox-9. what we need is education and sex-positivity, to encourage other things that *aren't* intercourse. anyway .. tangential. )

re: race. this is an extremely touchy issue and it appears to me that a lot of the people on this forum are not [a] members of marginalized groups , or [b] well versed in race/class/gender theory. this is an INCREDIBLY racist (and misogynistic!) society. while we may have gotten rid of jim crow, and legal discrimination, there is still a really long way to go, and it's hard to get rid of past wrongs.

anyway ... treva said : "Can't we just leave it at that and leave the race card out of this?" not really. it's impossible. classism is intertwined with rasism, and all of these comments about how people's presious tax dollars are going to help those damn poor people buy steaks and whatnot is straight out classism.

anyway ... my oberlin is showing, so i better stop talking now.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

Racism and classism may be related but they are not one in the same. I resent being called a racist because I am white. Yes, we do have a long way to go. We have a long way to go in sexism, too. Society is not fair, but that's how it is. We have to keep working to change that.

About birth control. Surprise, sometimes it does fail! Blah blah blah, the only 100% birth control is Abstinence. But is it right to deny a women in the working class sex? No, of course not. It's her decision and if she happens to get pregnant SHE has to deal with it. Yet it's nearly impossible for her to raise this child in America without help. Even WITH help it's difficult. In Wisconsin (where I live) a single woman with only a HS diploma working full time makes about $9,000 a year. A man with a HS diploma will make about $22,000. It's nearly impossible for women to get out of poverty if she has children. I can't finish this right now but maybe i'll come back...

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2000

Sorry I haven't been on, folks. Spent all day yesterday taking Katie to the airport (it shouldn't have been an all day thing, but it was). Then, after that, I had to go use the fact that I was white to gain an unfair advantage over some poor Hispanic kids, and then I watched some fine upstanding young Christian men harass a Jew and get away with it. White man's burden, indeed.

Maria,

"i am not pat robertson, and that was an unfair comparison. what i am speaking of (the social contract) exists and can be proven. just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that you aren't a part of it."

Pat Robertson would say, "Christianity is proven. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that you aren't a part of the system. You can benefit from it, or you can burn in hell."

"if people weren't required to put money in for to allviate social ills in the form of tax dollars, then a lot of people would think like you do and buy more fun new toys."

You say that like it's a BAD thing.

When I lived in an apartment, my roommate decided to bring in a third guy to bring the cost of the rent down. Except that after the first month, he stopped paying rent, had no job, and ate the food that I bought. I did the work, he ate the food. And it really pissed me off. So, we look at this system. I do the work, pay the taxes, someone else eats the food. And I don't get to buy Final Fantasy XXXIV. Sounds like a fair deal... to the faceless, nameless person who's eating food on my dime. For me, it's a bit of a rip. And yes, just like when my pothead friend Donnie and his pothead friends got the munchies and ate $40 worth of my food, I'm pissed off about it.

"eric says : "I have no such contract with society. I'm out for me." hate to break it to you, but you do. you work, you pay taxes. you get/send postal mail. you drive on the highways. you've probably gotten government assitance in paying for your education. the military has saved you and your family's asses on more than one occasion. you want out of the contract? start your own island."

Yes, I work, pay taxes, use the postal service, drive on the highways, and gotten government assistance to pay for my education. I admit to that. But that's because I have no alternative. If I want to go to the mall, I can't exactly elect to use nothing but privately-owned highways to get there. There aren't any. I can't use another postal service to send mail to California. There aren't any. I can't pay for my own college education, because Uncle Sam takes so much of my cash to give to everyone else so THEY can go to school that I have no choice but to go back to him and try to get some of it back. We talk about freedom in this country, we talk about democracy, but what we really have is good ol' fashioned Socialism. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Sound familiar? The government takes from me as much as it thinks it can that allows me to still live, and gives it to someone who's figured out the system and pops out a baby every nine months to get another name on the WIC folder. And you call this "the best investment of my tax dollars?" I think not. Even if you wanted this money to go to help feeding the underpriviliged of the world, there are more efficient places the money can go. The Foodbank being the obvious example here.

Acacia,

"I have never met a Libertarian who wasn't a privileged white male (okay, sometimes a privileged white female)."

Hi. I'm Eric. Nice to meet you. While I'm a white male, I am not in any way privileged, unless you're going with the Victim Culture definition that says I'm privileged BECAUSE I am a white male.

"The people with money - the computer experts, the venture capitalists, and all the rest, including you - are the ones who don't give a shit and who would, in the absence of any government assistance, buy computer games instead of helping the poor."

So what you're saying is that, because I'd rather spend the money that I EARNED on computer games instead of giving it to Suzanne Somers' Save The Children Fund or whatever, that the government should then FORCE me to give THEM the money so that THEY can spend it BETTER than I can? Who the hell made the government the all-wise sage of personal finance? "Up, that Egolf kid, he's going to buy another hard drive for his computer. Let's take his money and give it to that lady with no job and a taste for caviar."

Alison, Katie already yelled at you for saying we're all racist for getting the special treatment white people supposedly get. I just second that. I will not deny that are certain people in certain positions of power who make things difficult for non-whites. I can't help that, except to decry it in words. You end up second-guessing yourself if you do it any other way. "Excuse me, sir, while I thank you for hiring me yesterday, I need to know if it was because you really think I'm good for this job, or if it's just because I'm white. If it's because I'm white, I'll have to quit. And go apply for food stamps."

---

Okay... my sister was in a class with a very liberal professor, and they got on this issue, and my sister agrees with me on a lot of it. She was the one who called on me to run for President up at the top of this mess. Anyway, Lisa spoke up about it, and the professor asked her (in a loaded way) if she really wanted to do away with these programs and let these poor, defenseless children die. Her response:

"Yes. Let them die."

I couldn't have said it better myself, and I wish I could have seen the look on her professor's face. I've never been prouder of my little sis.

We live in a society that strives for perfection. The problem is that perfection means different things to different people. To you, perfection might be a happy place where everyone has a job and three meals a day. To that guy in Arkansas who lives in a shack in the woods and changed his name to "X" to avoid taxation problems, perfection is a world where we all pray fifteen times a day and "them goddamn niggers went back to Africa where they belong." My idea of perfection is a world where everyone is free to do what they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. It's also a world where you get the unique opportunity to face up to the consequences of your actions. You don't have to work if you don't want to, but you better get used to dumpster hopping. If you want to work your way up to a respectable position in a good company, then good for you! But if the boss lays you off, don't think you have a right to sue because he's white and you're black and the fact that the company's losing money left and right don't mean shit, because he's a goddam racist. And if you do manage to make it, and you do manage to get out there and really make something of yourself, you don't have to give up 20% of your paycheck to feed some starving kid you don't know and probably will never meet. If you WANT to do that with your money, that's great. It's your money. If you want to roll it up and use it to snort the three lines of crack on your coffee table... it's your money. Personal responsibility, people. That's what I want. I'll take care of me and mine, and you take care of you and yours.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Why does EVERYTHING have to be about RACE?

I totally agree with you Katie... and I've got something else to add! I have worked in a Pediatrician's office for two years, on and off. We are one of the only clinics in our town that still accepts Medicaid Insurance (only for families that are *really* in need). What pisses me off more than --ANYTHING--, is watching people abuse this insurance (ie: having no money to pay your doctor, yet when you leave the clinic you drive off in an eddie bauer expedition, or... you can't pay your doctor, yet you can dress your two year old daughter in Tommy Hilfiger from head to toe *including shoes*).

As Katie has already said, I know there are tons of people who don't abuse the system... but there are just as many who do.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

hmm ... so now the response from the opressed female victim who also happens to be a member of a minority group! who was raised on welfare and food stamps! and who went to public schools! and who's daddy was on unemployment for a year! and who is on government loans and grants and work study! yep, a whole lifetime funded by conservative-minded tax-payers like eric egolf, greg barber, and our very own katie trame. gotta love it. ==

"I do the work, pay the taxes, someone else eats the food" no. you still eat food. you still get money. *some* of that money is being put into WIC/welfare/food stamps. some of that money is being deposited elsewhere.

"I can't pay for my own college education, because Uncle Sam takes so much of my cash to give to everyone else so THEY can go to school that I have no choice but to go back to him and try to get some of it back" yeah, maybe because those other people may have needed the money more than you do? financial aid was instituted to give people a chance -- these people being the ones that couldn't afford college, so that the class gap could be made smaller. if more poor people go to college, eric, more of them have a chance to get good jobs and not be on welfare and waste more taxpayer's money. what a novel concept!

"We talk about freedom in this country, we talk about democracy, but what we really have is good ol' fashioned Socialism" to use your words, you say that like it's a BAD thing.

"gives it to someone who's figured out the system and pops out a baby every nine months to get another name on the WIC folder" what an offensive statement to make. i'm sure that all of those single mothers who have children and are on WIC wanted this. i'm sure that every girl dreams of the day when she can be on public assistance.

"While I'm a white male, I am not in any way privileged, " you are a (i'm assuming) heterosexual, white male in the united states. it doesn't get any better than that. this country was built by your ancestors, and the system is set up so that While Middle Class is what people are told is the Best, and is Good. there is an intense amount of racism and white privelege in this country and to deny it is very, very erroneous. we live in a rasist society -- why isn't anyone admitting this?

for anyone who wants a better view in this topic, live in a major city for a few years. in the poor neighborhoods. new york, los angeles. read some jonathan kozol.

"My idea of perfection is a world where everyone is free to do what they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" the problem with this is that your actions affect other people. we do not live all by ourselves in tiny, secluded bubbles. the things we say and do are going to affect other people, whether on a small scale or on a larger scale.

and as far as what someone else asked ... "why does everything have to be about race?" race is more than just skin color. it's ethnicity, and specific culture, and as i've said before, is tied in with class. because of the way this country was started (by slave-owners)(and this isn't exclusive to white/blacks and it isn't exclusive to america. there has always been a caste system of race and class, and slavery .. ) race permeates everything.

one last thing to add: everyone who is had argued with me or acacia or alison has said that they don't feel that society owes these people anything, that they should work up to get somewhere. what they neglect to mention (or even personally acknowledge) is that not everyone starts off on the same foot, not everyone has the same opportunities, and furthermore -- what created race/class hierarchies? this society. giving them money to buy food from people who are more priveleged (a kind of robin hood effect) is about the least we can do.

yep.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

To Roxy:

"i wish to god i didn't have first-hand experience with all this and that middle/upper-middle/upper class white suburban kids weren't going to try to argue and dispute everything i said"

I'm an upper class white kid. My mother and father (She is an Office worker and Nurse, he is a Pediatrician) work extremely hard for ever single penny they earn (although tons of it goes to the government). I've been extremely blessed... I'm what most people consider THE "spoiled little rich ass bitch". The point I'm trying to make here is that society, for some stupid ass reason, has come to the conclusion that because my family is wealthy, we got that way by cheating other people out of their money. It is clear that this is your view (I concluded that by the sentence quoted above). I'm not saying that you are bad, or wrong, or that you should be ashamed that you HAVE had experiences with food stamps/whatever it is you had help with. What I'm saying, or asking, rather... is: Why the hostility toward "middle-upper class white kids".

What in the world does race have to do with it anyway? You obviously feel that the world owes you something. I'm sorry to have to tell you this... but you're going to have to go out and get it yourself.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

My dad up and left my mom because he wanted to bang other chicks. So what did she do? She gave birth to three more kids and got on WIC and started to rely on the government assistance...

Oh, no, wait, my mom got her ass into tons of debt and went to fuckin' SCHOOL and learned herself a trade and got productive again. And the majority of her class was black. So while some like to lie down and take the "we're underprivileged because we're black" route, some at least are saying, "being black ain't gonna put food on MY table, I better go get a real job."

Anyone who says that I'm racist simply because I'm white can kiss my white ass.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Eric, no one has said you're racist. But I do think you're ignorant.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

Ignorant why? Because I feel I can spend my money better than the government?

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

>take the "we're underprivileged because we're black" route,

because they ARE. especially, if they are poor. which is what a lot of black people are. here's an interesting statistic for you : about 10 percent of the US's population is black. about half of the prison population (if not more) is black. huh. poverty breeds crime. black people (and latinos, and native americans, and asians, and women) have been shit on for years and years, and it hasn't stopped. to deny that there is a disadvantage if you are a minority and poor, of just poor, is wrong.

>Anyone who says that I'm racist simply because I'm white can kiss my >white ass.

eh, i'd really rather not. and no-one called you a racist. we were simply talking about race/class hierarchies. you perceived it as such.

and i agree with acacia. i think you're extraordinarily ignorant and insens

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

ra·cism
n.

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Just thought that maybe since a lot of people are throwing around this word so freely, they might like to know what it actually means

Maria: Actually, someone did call Eric a racist. In fact, they said that everyone who was white was a racist simply because they are white. (It's in one of the above posts.)

I don't really have much to say on this topic actually. I'm not even sure if we have food stamps in Canada, and most of the people I asked weren't sure either.

Maybe the best thing that everyone in this particular forum topic can do is agree to disagree. It's quite clear that everyone has a different opinion on this issue. Like, opposite end of the spectrum different. And, it's also pretty clear that no one's going to change their stance.

In everything that is good, there is some bad; and in everything that is bad, there is some good. So, maybe things like food stamps are a little bit of both. Like most things the government does, they have their good points, and their bad. Welcome to the realities of living in the world today.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

Hi I'm Greg... the conservative-minded, white, racist... um.. NOT!!!

Okay, first, I'm not a racist. So dont even go there. Just because I'm white doesnt mean I'm a racist, and I think anyone who feels that way can kiss my ass.

You have a chip on your shoulder. Thats what I say. I'm sorry if any of you were raised on food stamps. I'm sorry your parents were too lazy to get off their asses and find a job, rather than mooching off the government.

My grandparents immigrated here from Mexico without any money to their names. They managed to both get jobs, and shitty ones at that. My grandfather did anything and everything to earn a cent, and my grandmother sewed dresses. Not great jobs but did them because mooching off the government wasnt their style. They saved enough to buy a house, start a business and raise three children and pay for their private schooling.

Now lets see here. They could have easily taken the other route, where they live off of foodstamps, have eight kids and not give a shit about taking money from other people.

I resent that fact that because my skin is white, its assumed I'm a racist. I also resent the fact that its assumed all white people have an easier life than any other people. The reason I have a good paying job is because I fucking worked for it. I worked hard, long hours. I've had to also work those jobs cleaning shit off of a bathroom wall, or vomit off of the floor. Sometimes you have to work those shitty jobs in the beginning. I truly feel that their are plenty of jobs out in the country for everyone. I can look in the paper and see tons of them. There are help wanted signs on practically every window. These arent college degree jobs, they are jobs loading trucks, ringing up sales, stocking shelves. Dont tell me that finding a job is impossible... its just harder than collecting those foodstamps every month. Maybe a McDonald job isnt enough to pay for all your bills, but two or three jobs might be.

As for birth control... believe me, its not impossible to get. If you can't afford to raise a family then keep your shorts on. Nothing makes me angrier than seeing people who are down and out with ten children and one on the way every year. Thats just selfish and those kids deserve better.

Anyhow, sure I'm white... I'm also hispanic, I'm also irish, german, and lots of other things. As for being conservative-minded.. all I can do is laugh. I'm very liberal-minded... but I dont feel I need to pay for the millions of people that feel they are "owed" this assistance. I dont owe anyone anything... its time for people to take the chip off their shoulders about their lot in life. You choose how you live your life... you can sit around and wait for things to be dropped in your lap, or you can go out and do something to improve your situation. Go to school and learn a trade. Libraries are free, just go and study on your own. Their are millions of excuses out there, but excuses aren't going to make your life any better. So, go ahead, blame everyone else for your situation... give excuses for why things didnt go so right... but god forbid you take some responsiblity for it.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

I'm sorry, Greg, but saying that anyone on food stamps must be 'mooching off the government' sounds to me like a decidedly illiberal statement. Do you have any evidence to justify it?

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

If anyone thinks that everybody has the same opportunities then they are seriously delusional.

If person A is raised in a community with a school that is heated, has running water, has books, has a teacher that actually gives a shit, is safe, and offers food (be it free lunch/breakfast or a regular cafeteria or bringing food from home or being able to go home for lunch) then they are miles ahead of the child that has none of these.

But that doesn't happen in the US, you say? Wrong. In the poorer sections of cities and in rural areas, you can have any one or more of those situations.

It does happen to be that minorities often inhabit these communities and why is that? Because they're too lazy to get a job? No, maybe it's because they can't fucking read because the schools they were going to didn't have books. Didn't have teachers. How can you learn when your stomach is growling every day? When you can't sleep at night because you're not in a safe place?

You tell yourself that you don't owe them anything but human decency goes a long way. If your tax dollars go to allow them food so that they can go to school and be able to learn then you're helping the society. You're helping yourself. When a society helps out the less priviledged, they're not doing it for the sake of being kind and good, they're doing it because when everyone is educated the society, as a whole, benefits.

Some of the people on welfare have no choice. Example: my brother. He was shot in the head when he was 12. A friend was playing with his father's gun and there was a ricochet. My brother became severely epileptic. Drugs can't control it for long. He works his ass off but can't get a job that pays much because he doesn't know when he'll have a seizure. My mom (my dad is dead) buys the medication he needs and he pays his own rent, but he does need some help. So, yes. You may be allowing my brother to eat.

Does he deserve to be treated like he's a leech on society because of a freak accident when he was a child? I say no because he does his best, but maybe _his_ best isn't the same as what you can accomplish.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

Timmi:

There are alway going to be special cases, which your brother would fall under. My point is that as long as they are working and trying to support themselves, I dont blame them for needing a little assistance from the government. The problem I have are the people that LIVE off of the government and do nothing to even try to support themselves and their family and keep producing more family members all the while.

Everyone:

Perhaps the way the system works is screwed up, but I truly dont believe that handing money to people is going to make them want to find a job and get off of that kind of assistance. I dont mind giving a little tax money to create a better system, but you have to realize where Katie and I are coming from. We've worked in those grocery stores where we've watched those same families come in week after week buying food that I personally dont feel a struggling family would buy. If I were trying to save money and use my small income wisely, I sure as hell wouldnt be buying lobsters and steak every week. I dont care if they DID do all their shopping at a different store and were "shopping around" for the best prices. Isn't this just common sense.

Aside from those who medically need assistance, making a better society means everyone works to pay for themselves. I don't begrudge those that need a "little" help for a short period of time, but it's out of hand. There are people taking advantage of the system now and thats what pisses me off. Teamwork is about everyone doing their part to make the team better... it's not about five people working their asses off and one person sitting around and accepting the glory and rewards of the team.

I'm sorry if any of you grew up dirt poor. I just feel that everyone can make themselves better if they try. There were plenty of months were my mom, my sister and I ate those 25 cent packs of noodles everyday until the next paycheck came in. We did what we had to do. We accepted secondhand clothes from friends. It's called doing what you have to do to make it work and not waiting for the government to hand everything to you.

Sorry if no one agrees, but I can't help how I feel.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

Ok people I whoe heartedly agree with Greg. If you hand everything to people who have made a lifetime of abusing the system then how wil he/she ever stop, can yo ublame them when it is so easy to mooch off everybody. And what about those girls who have 6 kids from 6 different dads, real brilliant you would think after the 3rd baby she would learn how to keep her legs closed. I do not have a problem with people who truly need the help but if you are a healthy person and if there is physically nothing wrong with you then what the fuck is preventing you from getting a goddam job. People have become so freakin lazy expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. People grow up and stop acting like there is no problem, there is a big problem and the governement needs to do something about it instead of enabling these people to stay on welfare a entire lifetime. Welfare and food stamps are a temporary solution not something you rely on for the rest of your life and those of you that have a problem with that then you can contrbute all of your money to making the world a "better" place and maybe then I will have more freakin money in my pocket to make my own life better.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

Back to Acacia, since I haven't been online in ages:

I can't stand it when people put words in your mouth, or twist what you are saying. No Acacia, I did NOT say I was "denying the children a meal" or whatever it was you said. Don't even try that, because it's simply not true. The only thing I WAS saying was that I didn't want these kids to grow up expecting a free meal everywhere they go...because that's how it is in many cases. It starts with a free lunch everyday in summer camp as a preschooler, then it's free lunch throughout grade school and junior high. Then it's like a total shock to the person when they get a job, and they're going, "Hey, there's no free lunch here!"

In addition, it annoys me to hear people complain about it. I have had experience working with many of these kids (therefore, the "ignorant" card cannot be pinned to me) It drove me nuts to hear the kids whine, UGH!!! I HATE THIS FOOD!! I know that small children might not understand, but some of the kids complaining were in their teens already. They should be grateful that they have the opportunity to get a free meal and not complain about it -- after all, if they are truly in need, their alternative would be going hungry. Hungry vs bad food, hungry vs bad food...hmm, let's think about it. Then, of course, I know people will say that no kid should be forced to feel grateful for the fact that he or she had breakfast or lunch today. However, if it's not a reality at your house, and someone else provides it for you, then yes, I think the child should be taught to appreciate it, at least by being told at any early age to eat it all, not complain about it, etc. Is that so unreasonable? It's what my mom taught me to do WHEREVER I ate.

I suggest we wrap up this topic...it's not going to end, or find a solution. It's one of those issues where people have their own set opinions and are not going to open their eyes to another. Accept it and move on.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

I wanted to comment on a point made by Noelle:

"But there ARE some families who abuse [food stamps]. I've seen those same people.. A family with 7 kids, buying soda and chips on food stamps instead of like, bread and milk."

I used to have the same viewpoint until I realized something--bread and milk are much more expensive than soda and chips. I can buy two 2-liter bottles of soda for $1.80, but a 2-gallon container of milk costs at least $2.60 up here in Massachusetts. It's a shame that foods are priced that way and thus force poorer families to choose unhealthy eating alternatives.

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2000

I can't believe this forum on Food Stamps! People abusing the system is the least of Americas problems.

So what if a food stamp recipient buys steak and lobster....its food isnt it? Is there a certain type of food only for the poor or is there a certain type of food only for the rich? Its not like they are going to a fancy resuarant and ordering steak and lobster. A hungry child sure dosent know the diffrence. And if they act like they are "entitled" then maybe thats because they are. Who isnt entitled to a decent meal? Our children didnt ask to be born and every adult was first a child. And if food stamps are used to buy food then the system is not being abused-it is often a fine line between middle class and poor. And for those who complained about the poor single mother whose child was dressed in GAP should ask themselves since when did GAP become the equivalent to Versace, Donna Karen or Kate Spade? Any cost conscience person can tell you that buying cheap clothes (especially for active children) will land you right back at the Kmart counter, spending more money on more clothes. (Kmart is only used as an example-nothing personal!)

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

WOW....Katie, are "cans of worms" on the food stamp list ? ( thought i'd submit a SHORT post )

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

All I can say is what I see and experience. Why do all 17 yo black women have kids they cannot support? Answer: Medicaid, food stamps, welfare, ect. Why does no one want to live by them? Answer: Then you know you really reached rock bottom in life.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Um, if you're going to post stereotypical responses -- or any response, really -- use your own e-mail address, or an anonymous one... not mine.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001