The A.M.E. Church accused of sexual-orientation descrimination

As I was looking through a list of sites that referred people to A.M.E. Today, I found one from MiamiNewTimes.com. Of course I was curious, wondering what A.M.E. Today had done to be mentioned by the web site and secondly, what they had to say about it.

It turns out the story had nothing to do about A.M.E. Today directly, instead it was about the A.M.E. Church and a certain Tommy Watkins, who is an aspiring minister in the A.M.E. Church.

First problem, I found, was the author, not being familiar with A.M.E. polity, did make some mistakes in judgement regarding what Watkins was trying to achieve. He thought becoming a Deacon meant being voted or approved to some high office in the A.M.E. church. I already have dropped the author a note in that regards. Second, he called Watkins, Reverend, and if Watkins was not approved to be a Deacon yet, that is a title he has yet earned the right to carry, at least in the A.M.E. Church.

Now, these shortcomings aside, the article raises some thought- provoking issues, mostly in regards to the A.M.E. Church's relationship to, and stand on, homosexuality.

Bishop Adams gave a reasoned explaination as to why Watkins was not ordained, with the emphasis being on the fact he is a "practicing" homosexual. And I am sure, if one was a heterosexual and was known to be a practicing philanderer, they too would be held back. Or at least, that is what I would hope would happen.

The article is long and involved. The subject is pithy and but, this discussion area is known for its pithy discussions. Rather than just launching into this topic, here is the address and a hot link to the article http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-10-26/metro2.html

I did it as a pop-up new window so you do not have to lose your place in the discussion to read the article. Take a read through and let me know what you think of this particular issue.

Rev. John

-- Anonymous, October 25, 2000

Answers

The bishop, and of course the AME Church, on the issue of practicing homosexuals not being accepted into the ordained mainistry of the church. At the same time, we reject any person who does not renounce sin and try to live a holy life, as much as it lies within himself. The young man seems determined to "knock" down the AME church policy, not for any spiritual reason, but to simply force the AME Church to accept him as an ordained minister.

-- Anonymous, October 25, 2000

Rev. Fisher,

Thank you for pointing out that article to me. I have forwarded it to a number of other preachers to review. This is a situation that needs to be addressed. I have my own opinions dealing with this matter as well. I find that as a church we have strict laws which govern our denomination which are based upon scripture regarding not just sexual misconduct but stealing, slander, etc. This young man seems to want to be viewed as a martyr for his cause or is it that he may be looking to eventually sue the church. Also the reporter of the article seems like he has an issue with the church because I find it hard to believe that Bishop John Hurst Adams, a well educated scholar could not find a scripture reference about homosexuality. From Genesis it is obvious and pointed out. The language that the reporter used was "condemn" we do not condemn, "judge not", but we uphold the Word of God. We are to love the sinner and not the sin. As AME's we are not to embark upon hunts for people of other orientations but yes we pray for deliverence from these issue. To the author of the article he needs to get his facts and references straight.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

The issue of whether gays and lesbians should be ordained is a topic that the United Methodist and Presbyterian denominations have been arguing over for years and in some cases churchs have left their denominations. But the AME church has made it clear that they will not ordain gays and lesbian. The UCC church will ordain gays and lesbians and place them in churchs. The larger issue I think is how the church will receive gays and lesbians as members of the church. In the late 1980's I was an Aids Chaplain in a hospice for those who were in the last stages of the disease. I met so many young men who had grown up in the church and loved the church dying alone. Parents had disowned them, Their pastors would not return their phone calls and often times hateful messages were sent to them. I feel Jesus calls me to minister to those that are sick, destitute and ostrized by the larger community. The reality is there are a lot of gays and lesbians in the world. As christians what will our response be? Ordination is one issue, our rules about homosexuality make it clear that the AME church will not ordain gays and lesbians. But how will we treat gays and lesbians in our community and in our churchs. I ask this question partly because I am the executive director of an anti-hate organization and periodically I get info about gays being murdered, I received information of such a case this week. An African-American man was murdered in Maryland because of his sexual orientation. Thank you Rev. Denise Rogers

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 18:22 God's Word is the only answer. It is our duty as Christians, not AMEers, Baptists or the like, to uphold God's Word. If that means being criticized for not being "PC", then so be it. We have an Higher Authority, Jesus Christ, to answer to.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

Never should violence or hate be advocated. I always take the stance Jesus took. Never condemn or convict. Teach understanding and Love. I may not agree with someone's lifestyle but I still must love that person. In dealing with young people tolernce, understanding, and dialogue is what will lead to reconcilliation. Teaching Biblical truth should never turn anyone away from the Lord.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

As a Church we are to intercede for the lost. We speak the truth in love, and we are always prepared and ready to answer anyone who asks us about the hope we have in Christ. Homosexuality, like all other sins done with the body is very serious, because our body is the temple of the Living God.

I believe in my heart when the Spirit convicts and calls us to Christ, it is prepared, knowing what he needs to work with in our life to prepare us to meet Jesus. While the Holy Spirit is doing its work in the lives of those whom he calls (whether homosexual or any other sinner) let us remember to stay prayerful and remember the two commandments. Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind and love our neighbor.

The Holy Spirit definitely knows how to convict and show us how we look in the sight of God. On a good day standing with God's spotlight, we stand guilty. I thank God everyday for the blood of Jesus. For it is He who will present me faultless.

Should the Church take a stand against ordination? Yes, just like we would for any other sin. But when homosexuals, lesbians, prostitutes, gang members, sexualy abused, emotionally and physically abused, and I could go on, walk in our congregations, let them find the love of God meeting them at the door. You can believe they are all coming, and many could be sitting there already.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

Difference between "being homosexual" and "practicing homosexuality": As a church we must be careful to convey the message that it is the action that God hates. The lusts of the flesh may be toward one of the same or opposite sex. Both must be resisted until in the proper setting. St. Paul teaches how to deal with our sexuality in a heterosexual sense by saying that we each person ought to have his/her own spouse, "It is better to marry than to burn". There is no proper setting for a homosexual union. It is against God's law as is ALL sinful acts. One who craves union with the same sex has no choice but to resist the cravings of the flesh, as in "Resist the devil and he will flee from you." It is not easy, but we can overcome because Jesus has overcome the world. The bishop is right to not give a scriptural reference. As Jesus answered the Pharisees who were seeking to trap him, so our bishop answered this reporter. When I give a reference, I send them to the First Five Books of the Bible. There, they can learn about God and his law. Blessings

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

Rev. Rogers raises an extremely valid point.

Almost daily, you hear of cases of people being abused because of their sexual orientation.

This discussion is not being undertaken because of a dislike of a particular sexual orientation, something that individuals have no control over, rather it is being raised as to who can and can not be ordained.

However, I am glad this added dimension has been incorporated into the discussion, for although it may be tangental to my original question it is an important issue that needs to see the light of day.

In a congregation setting, all people need to be welcomed with Jesus's love and joy. We need to reach out to all. Jesus shunned none and neither should we. But Jesus did not invite all to minister with him, although he did say, if someone ministers in my name, (and I am paraphrasing here) it is better to let them to continue their ministry since if they are not against us they are for us.

I would suggest to Watkins to continue his ministry. That he try to find healing for those who bear scars because of their sexual orientation. I also would reach out to him as a brother in Christ and let him know, as he probably already knows in his heart, as long as he is actively practicing his sexual orientation, his ordination probably is not going to happen in the African Methodist Episcopal Church.

His orientation is not his sin, no more than my being born far sighted was my fault. But, it is then his free will to determine what he does about his sexual orientation...actively act upon or try to suppress it, as single, and many times married, heterosexuals have to strive to suppress the un-Godly cravings of their flesh.

I think it was Rev. Paris that looked back to Paul, who said that you would be better to be celibate than to engage in a situation that was abominable to the Lord.

May we hold this discussion with love rather than recrimination and pray that Brother Watkins receives the guidance he needs.

Rev. John

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

ARTICLE 5 Of the sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for salvation shows that we are evangelicals. Based upon that there should be no changes for including any known sin, especially homosexuality because Romans 1:21-32 let's us know when God's laws are violated and He IS NOT REGARDED AS CREATOR HE WILL "give up". Let man go to depravity; reprobation sets in "DISQUALIFICATION". Nations deteriorate and the very foundation of the family structure is threatened.

God has the right to tell us what to do. We can read it in His Word. God is Glorified when we recognize Him: Recognize His Word. We are debased when we do not Recognize Him and do not recognize His Word.

LET THE AME CHURCH GLORIFY GOD!

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

Like or not the A.M.E. Church will deal with the subject of ordaining gays and lesbians. If not now...later.

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

I firmly believe that issues such as these are diversions of Saten himself. Why should this be an issue. If we as Christians take a stand and say what is right and wrong according to God's Law and stop allowing parot christian (those who know of Christ and know the words of the bible) to set standards for us. I ask the question how could some one even accept their calling without fully accepting God's Law. Be ye Holy for I am Holy, that's what the book say. Would you ordain a lying preacher, or a adulteruess preacher, or a thieveing preacher, or a known fornicating preacher, I think NOT, and there would not be any question about it why should this be any different. I am extremly sympathetic to homeosexuals, and I believe God can use anybody "Amen" but when one accepts his call to the MINISTRY he or she also accepts a duty to God to live a upright life before God and the people as well. We must lay aside every weight, and if that is not a weight you tell me what is. I say two thumbs and two big toes up to Our Senior Bishop for standing firm on his Godly judgemet. A bigger issue is how to deal with counselling homosexual members in our congregation who accept the way they are and those who are desperatly fighting the way they are. I may sound contridictory, for I believe that if one is Gay or Lesbian it's there business unless they are attempting to be leaders in God's Church than I believe it's God business as well as the people they are attempting to convert and lest not forget that is our Main objective as preachers. Winning souls for CHRIST.

Rev. D.D.Phillips,Pastor of Allen Chapel A.M.E. Church

-- Anonymous, October 26, 2000

I believe as a nation that we have to stop trying to quantify sin. The church needs to deal with this issue, but it must be dealt with in love. As an AMEC pastor, I have a hard time understanding where we are on certain issues as a connectional church. What is the church stance on abortion, capital punishment, homosexuality, etc. It seems to me that the church as an whole does not want to deal with controversal issues. If the connectional church does not take a stand, then what do I do or say when I'm asked as a pastor of an AMEC. I am forced to give my own personal opinion or try to evade the question(s). The AMEC is going through some radical changes...and personally I'm not enjoying the direction it is heading.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

Let's not forget our commission as the children of God...to win souls for Christ. If that's to tell a liar that Satan is the father of lies, to tell a fornicator that it's better to marry than to burn, or to tell a homosexual that mankind laying w/ mankind & womankind w/ womankind is an abomination to the Lord, then that's what we have to do and do in love. Jesus isn't the author of any of these things. Our duty is to share with all, not just those who already know Christ. Those who know Christ (those in authority & those who are not) and practice those things that are not pleasing to the Father. We are our brother's keeper & should admonish him/her to walk uprightly before God. Our leaders should take authority to seat those in positions and withhold ordination & licensing until God has delivered. I thank God for a pastor who sat me down when I made her aware of something I did that was not pleasing to God. I wouldn't want her to knowingly allow me to continue in my sin and cause a stumblingblock to me, nor would I want my blood to be on her hands, because she did not take authority in the situation. Praise God, he has delivered & restored!! He can & will when we submit to Him. He can make a liar tell the truth, He can make a fornicator pure, and He can change the desires of a homosexual.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

Just to clarify... As a child of the King, I believe that homosexuality is a bondage. The answer for those who like to say they were born that way is for God to have created someone with those tendencies is in direct contradiction of his word. Rev. John while I agree that no one should be shunned and that all should be shown the love of Christ, I can not liken homosexuality to being nearsighted. Honestly, the brother is in need of deliverance first, then he can fully affectively teach the truth of God, and show others that are in the same bondage how they too can be set free by our liberating Father.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

Oh, it is my earnest and fervent prayer, I would not be so hypocritical as most of the respondents in this discussion. Get real folks. Homosexual men and women are in our congregation right now. Yes practicing homosexuals. Yet in the AME church we want to practice Don't Ask Don't Tell. Meanwhile men and women come back from the 2000 General Conference with ribald tales of men and women clergy and lay propositioning members of their own gender. Get Real. Quit living in 1787 and get with the facts of life. Quit quoting the first five books of the bible and bring the love of Jesus to life in the year 2000. I am so exhausted of my Zion pretending to be something that it is not. And by the way Rev. John, ordination to the office of Bishop is a high office. If it weren't then we wouldn't be talking about this. Just as we tried to ignore allegations of clergy sexual misconduct until we are almost bankrupted by court decisions let us stop pretending that all those in our churches both in the pew and in the pulpit are straight men and women. Also let's stop pretending that all those in our churches both in the pew and the pulpit are engaged in sexual relations only with their spouses. I am so sick of the depraved ignorance feigned by many in this denomination. And no I am not leaving it. I love the Lord and I am not ashamed of the gospel and I am want ALL TO COME INTO A TRUE SAVING KNOWLEDGE OF MY SAVIOR.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

Brother Harold

First calm down before your blood pressure goes up:-) You make several important contributions to this thread and I want to read more of your comments in the future, health withstanding. The naked [no pun intended] hypocrisy you cite about the AMEC position regarding homosexuality is undeniably true. Gay and lesbian individuals are represented in our pews and according to many unnamed sources our pulpits as well. All organized religions, AMEC included, are nothing more than thinly disguised forms of social control. The instruments of control are manifested in Divine Revelation [Scripture] and para-Scriptual tools like Church Discipline, Polity and Church constitutions.

I would argue that Bishop Adams sanctions against homosexuality are the correct course of action if and only if this was communicated earlier to Rev/Min/ Bro Watkins. The fundamental problem our church leaders are confronted with is this: If the Bible is unequivocal in its stand against homosexuality why hasn't the AMEC incorporated this within its Discipline? What will Bishop Adams and his colleagues do if gay ordained AME ministers come "out of the closet" in a sign of support for this gentleman? Do we respond like the Armed Forces and demand immediate resignation? I am holding a copy of the 1996 Discipline and there is no reference to homosexuality!!! How can the AMEC impose sanctions when sexual misconduct is not codified into law? By not explicitly addressing this issue in the Discipline the AMEC is indeed practicing an unofficial "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. But the reality is simply our delegates and ministers have ducked this issue for so long that they are endangering many by their act of political cowardice. I don't know for fact but I would be skeptical if any of the Bishop Candidates even addressed the topic of homosexuality in their "campaigns". What if Bishop McKenzie or Ingram were pro-gay would that have made a difference in the election outcome? Don't know.

Denying the gay AME preacher his ministerial credentials after he has satisfied all educational requirements is actually a form of ex post facto laws which I believe, though I'm not a lawyer, are Constitutionally prohibited. The R&B group Isley Bros. sang a song which I was quite fond of in my earlier whoremonger days, "ITS your thing do what you want to do". But the truth of the matter is I can't do what I want to do. No bigamist would be granted ordination no for that matter a known pedophile. Justification could be proffered that both "lifestyles" are innocuous hence, what's the issue? Alas, we have all learned that submission to social control means I have to live responsibily within all elements of sexual conduct. These are the issues which must be discussed at General Conference as oppossed to Pharaisaic topics like mandated tithing as a prerequisite for local office holder.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

what happens when time to read, teach, or preach on the scriptures regarding this issue? Do we skip over them. Be assured that God is God! He will never come down to our level. He is not a compromiser. What happened to boundaries and parameters.

If it were me, I would not to try to tear up something or cause havoc. It is just as easy to found your own denomination.

Boy, that is one thing about a spirit (it will show up and out, loud, obnoxious, and use anything, anyone, and any avenue)

One thing I do know is that the Chrisitan church in general needs to take a look at the causes and devastating damages of sexual abuse, mental and emotional health parenting, and choices made by parents, and youth (and no, I am not insinuating anything)It needs to take a real hard, close look at children, before birth, through young adult hood.

Another thing is for sure, and that is the fact that God always wins! Check out the contest at Mt. Carmel, and see who can rain down fire!

There is really no reason to debate, fret, or worry. Sit back, and watch God work. Just watch him do His thing! His word is like the cheese (in Old McDonald's Farm). It stands alone!

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

Thank you Mr. Harold Gibson. I appreciate your comments. I am in total agreement with everything you stated. It is time to stop the abuse and misuse of scripture. It is quite apparent that many of the respondents don't know how to appropriate ancient text to the postmodern era. Scripture has been used to sanction slavery, enforce patriarchal attitudes in church and society, and in some religious circles the Holy Writ is used to condemn women who want to proclaim the gospel. Yes, I'm sorry, but our great church will have to deal with gays and lesbians. As hard as it is for some of you to accept, they are a part of who we are. Wake up!!! I commend--rather than condemn--Bro. Tommie Watkins.

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2000

Again, it is not about orientation but practice. Openly homosexual ministers and members are welcome in the AME Church as long as they do not practice homosexuality. [Openly means that one does not deny his/her orientation.] As far as I can tell, the AME church has never denied that homosexuals are within our denomination. We reflect society. We also do not deny that some are are not living up to the level we ought and some are lying about it. Jesus said to let the wheat and the tares grow together and when He comes again, He will separate them The Discipline indicates that the AMEC belief in the scriptures as the word of God, therefore it is not necessary to state a position on any subject that is specific in the Bible. Any denomination has the right to establish codes of conduct for membership. The AME position is clear, contary to the position of some other denominations. Praise the Lord for clarity. If one chooses not to meet the standars of conduct, he/she is free to go to a denomination that will accept practicing homosexuals.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2000

HOMOSEXUALITY : SIGN OF THE TIME

End time teaching, ESCHATOLOGY, is missing from our Sunday School Lessons and from Church Bible Study, also Home Bible Study.

The AME Church should be clear about this: Death, Heaven/Hell, Rapture, The Beast (Anti- Christ), The False Prophet, Seals, Trumpets, Vials, Millennium, Bema Judgment, White Throne Judgment.

HOMOSEXUALITY, this issue, IS INDICATIVE OF ONLY A PREVIEW OF AN APOSTATE CHURCH. REV. 17 SEE Matthew Henry Commentary READ ALSO II TIM. 3: 1-9

Every Minister should be required to STUDY REVELATION and take a course in counseling; Deliverance Ministry Included.

Such a workshop should be included with each Annual and Dist. Conference.

SYMBOL GOOD WOMAN - GOOD CHURCH REV. l2 BAD WOMAN - APOSTATE CHURCH REV. 17 What Symbols! Women should particularly realize and govern themselves accordingly. What a difference a good woman makes. Prov. 31

Homosexual Cause: ROOT OF REJECTION THE CURE FOR HOMOSEXUALITY HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE: A man needs a good woman. (wife) Prov. 18:22 A woman needs a good man.(husband) OTHERS have the gift of singleness. Matt: 19:12 This can be a beautiful calling.

PRAY FOR BIBLE TEACHERS, READ YOUR BIBLE, PREACHERS PREACH THE BIBLE. Hot issues are then resolved.

PRAY DAILY FOR OUR BISHOPS AND ALL MINISTERS PRAY ESPECIALLY FOR BISHOP ADAMS IN SUCH AN AWESOME POSITION FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS. FASTING SHOULD BE INCLUDED. PLEAD THE BLOOD. PRAY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. PULL DOWN STRONGHOLDS.

PRAY LIKE THIS ....MAY GIVE UNTO YOU THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. EPH: 1:l7

REMEMBER THE OT IS THE NT CONCEALED; THE NT IS THE OT REVEALED.

HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY. Matt: 24:35 (JESUS)

The Lord is coming for a GLORIOUS CHURCH, NOT HAVING SPOT, OR WRINKLE, OR ANY SUCH THING; BUT THAT IT SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH. EPH . 5:27

READ ALSO I COR. 6:9-11 REV. 22:14-15

STUDY DELIVERANCE MINISTRY: CASTING OUT DEVILS MATT. 10:1 AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; IN MY NAME SHALL THEY CAST OUT DEVILS; MARK 16:17 LUKE 10:17-20

HALLEY'S BIBLE HANDBOOK FOR REVELATION STUDY

Those interested in the POWER OF GOD BEING MANIFESTED IN THIS SITUATION. EVERY DAY AT NOON - PRAY FOR THE YOUNG MAN AND HIS FAMILY TO RECONCILE; PRAY UNTIL THE BREAKTHROUGH COMES. THAT'S L O V E. WHAT A BLESSING FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST!

THE ANOINTING DESTROYS THE YOKE.

BOOKS TO READ HONESTY, MORALITY AND CONSCIENCE Jerry White

HEALING THROUGH DELIVERANCE 1 The Biblical Basis Peter Horrobin HEALING THROUGH DELIVERANCE

2 The Practical Ministry Peter Horrobin

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2000

My sister Ola is zealous in her ministry. Praise the Lord for her and others that are like-minded. I may be wrong in this, but I don't think so. I always ask the same question that Jesus asked on some occasions: "Do you want to be healed?" or "Do you want to be made whole?" If the answer is positive, then I pray for their healing. Otherwise, I bid them godspeed and go my way. Am I wrong in this?

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2000

By the way, I sent an email to the author of the article that is the subject of this discussion and received a reply asking where the errors were and permission to publish my reply. So, I commented on each error i could find and am awaiting his reply. Blessings

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2000

IT IS UNSCRIPTURAL to say God speed to any evil. II JOHN 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this *doctrine receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: vs 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. SEE vs 7 CONFESSION OF CHRIST HAS BEEN MADE THEREFORE THE APPROACH STANDS (PRAYER) (*confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh) THE ACID TEST FOR ANTI-CHRIST spirit (WILL NOT CONFESS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH) READ ALSO I JOHN 4:1-3

This issue presents a wonderful opportunity to see a person blessed to do God's will, one who has confessed CHRIST.

OTHERWISE: THE FOLLOWING WOULD APPLY TO ANYONE WHO RADICALLY REFUSES DISCIPLINE ......delivered unto Satan________that they learn not to_________ I TIM. 1:20

In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ; when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. I COR. 5:4-5

ALSO CONSIDER I JOHN 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Sin unto death - believe not in His Name

QUOTE MAXIMIZE THE MOMENT

JOIN US IN PRAYER

There ARE Biblical Remedies ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS. II TIM. 3: 16-17

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2000

We should all be careful to remember that ordination in the African Methodist Episcopal Church is a priviledge not a right. While I am not sure what the recommendation of the Board of Examiners of the South Florida Annual Conference was in this case, the trust that has been place in the Board and the Bishop should not be challenged or compromised.

-- Anonymous, November 01, 2000

The subject article said that his name was not among those recommended by the Board of Examiners. I daresay the board had handled the matter prior to their report. I was not there, but this was not done in the dark, otherwise, how did the news media get involved? Thank you Sister Ola for correcting my use of "godspeed". I am guilty of using this term too loosely. I bless my brothers and sisters when we greet and part. What I should have said is that I shake the dust from my shoes and go on. Blessings,

-- Anonymous, November 01, 2000

My question is would Mark 9:38-41 have any significance to this situation? In addition, Jesus has commanded us to love this young man, not judge him. As we know love bears all things, believes all things and hopes all things. It does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth.

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

Mary, I think it does. Here's my take on it. We (the AME Church) should not forbid the young man to preach Christ. Moses (Numbers 11:27-29) supports this in the case of Eldad and Medad. Paul (Phil. 1:14 - 18) makes the point that even when the gospel is preached by brothers (born again?) for selfish reasons, it is still effective. (Paul makes the point in the First Corinthian letter that one must have the Holy Spirit dwelling within one in order to understand and accept the gospel -- and I assume preach. So I agree, he has a right and should not be forbidden to minister the gospel Christ. But the AME Church also is right in not ordaining him to preach in the AME Church (Matt. 16:19). If he continues to preach the true gospel of Christ, he will be converted by his own preaching if not already converted. As you know, our actions does not indicate our status in Christ; it is our attitude towards our actions. One can live holy and preach and also one can live raggedy and preach; we prefer the former, however.

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

Thank you Brother Paris. That does make it clearer to me.

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

Shake off the dust Matt. 10:l4 According to Holman Bible Handbook speaks to being "unresponsive to their (disciples) message"

BE SURE THAT THE MESSAGE HAS BEEN THROUGHLY GIVEN FIRST READ ALSO THE VERY NEXT VS. (15)

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city. SEE GEN. 19

HOMOSEXUALITY IS PERVERTED

But even worse are people who refuse His Message having seen His works, Jesus' way of doing things, His Kingdom. READ IT AGAIN MATT.11:23, 24

There's degrees of final punishment; all ending in eternal death. ROM. 6:23 The latter is WORSE. Rejecting Jesus

READ LUKE 11:31, 32

Let's get the Message Right! Lest WE be condemned.

Jonah did not want to help his enemies by preaching to them. READ JONAH THEY WERE SPARED; NINEVEH LATER BROUGHT TO DESTRUCTION (NAHUM) WE CANNOT ARROGANTLY IGNORE GOD.

WE ARE DEALING WITH PEOPLE S O U L S

But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ROM. 5:8

IN THIS HOUR WE CAN HELP MAKE THE DIFFERENCE IN THIS TIME LINE LET HISTORY RECORD THE RIGHT CHOICE

EZEKIEL 3:17-21 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die; because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin and his righteousness which he hast done shall not be remembered, but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned, also thou hast delivered thy soul.

CONCERNING MARK 9:38-4l REFERS TO THOSE WHO ARE QUESTIONING DISCIPLES IN GOOD STANDING

AND WE DO NOT "JUDGE" WHEN WE SEE FRUIT Wherefore by their fruit shall ye know them. MATT. 7:20

DISCIPLINE IS IN ORDER READ GAL. 5:13-26 GAL 5:24 AND THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH THE AFFECTION AND LUSTS. IF WE LIVE IN THE SPIRIT, LET US ALSO WALK IN THE SPIRIT.

ALSO WHEAT AND TARES REFERS TO THE WORLD - NOT THE CHURCH MATT. 13:38 THE CHURCH HAS DISCIPLINE ....And the rest will I set in order when I come. I COR. 11:34c ( THE APOSTLE PAUL) THERE IS A PROCESS I COR. 9:27 But I keep my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (PAUL) ROM. 12:7 OR MINISTRY, LET US WAIT ON OUR MINISTERING; OR HE THAT TEACHETH, ON TEACHING

ABOUT CONFESSING CHRIST FULL CIRCLE TO THE ISSUE TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION DOES THIS APPLY? TITUS l:l6 They profess that they know God; but in works deny Him, being abominable and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate.(DISQUALIFIED)

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

Once we realize that God is not the author of the bible and it's scriptures and come into the realization that man wrote, authored and edited this book we hold in such high esteem, we can look beyond these judgemental bounding thoughts of men who lived in a different time and space than us. I am hurt and befuddled that an organiztion as once powerful as the Ame denomination of which I am a part can still be so small in thought and love and cannot embrace difference open mindly and without judgement. As a denomination we have been broken and continue to break off bits and piece of ourselves by holding on to doctrines, rites and rituals that are causing the chisms. The incident in Florida only serves to deepen the chasm causing us to lose people, who are loving, dedicated, walking with God, because we cannot accept their choice in their humaness.

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

For some reason I keep going back to this discussion; possibly because the subject greives my heart. We in the Church community know of a Pastor who preached, and is still preaching, for many years with a sin of infedility. It became known openly (and I praise God for that) he confessed his sin openly and repented. Now rather or not he is still plaqued with this particular sin we don't know. We do know he is still preaching.

My question is how many are doing a ministry in the Church and have a known sin of the flesh? You've confessed it and continue to ask for deliverance; yet you somehow feel compelled to continue your ministry.

What concerns me about homosexuality is that many, and I'm speaking from those that I've met, feel trapped and are unaware how this lifestyle came to be. Some were sexually abused and feel since they were molested by a man have become stigmatized. I've met some that have always had childhood illnesses and were never accepted by their male peers. Over the process of time they were called out of their name, "sissy, fag" and such. They lived up to their name. I see young boys today that are being raised by their single moms and grandmothers and have taken on their manerisms. I pray for them because I know if God does not step, in their sexual orientation will begin to come into question. The frightening thing is they won't bring this fear or question into the Church because they already have heard and witnessed that it is an abomination. And it is in the Word of God and this they don't question. But what they don't understand is how and why they have been plaqued with this abominaton. So they will not come to the Church to be made to feel more ashamed.

Many are carrying around things in your life, and know the feelings, thinking and actions are against the Word of God. There is a fear of carrying that problem to the Church family because of feeling more condemned. I used to feel this way; but one day I decided to confess my faults to someone I felt was spiritually mature to handle my situation. I was blessed and I thank God for sending that person in my life.

I like what one person said on this forum. Does that person want to be delivered? I'll take it even further. Have they come to a knowlege that they need to be delivered, or are they still struggling with why and how they have found themselves the way they are? If you're struggling asking why, I beg you to stop and think back. Sometimes things happen in our lives that we are totally unware of and had no authority over. Satan doesn't care how he slips in, he just does. Lovingly, Carmen

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

II PETER 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

II Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

LUKE 24:13-32 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlong. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus Himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know Him. And He said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto Him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And He said unto them, What thing? And they said unto Him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and have crucified Him. But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not His body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that He was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but Him they saw not. Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and He made as though He would have gone further. But they constrained Him, saying, Abide with us; for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And He went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as He sat at meat with them, He took bread and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while He talked with us by the way, and while He opened to us the Scriptures?

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

Writer Dorothy Sayers, once penned these words on the role of the church. She said "It is not the business of the church to adapt Christ to men, but men to Christ."

Homosexuality, even when a liberal view of the Old Testament text is taken, is un-natural and produces no fruit which is the primary reason for sexual union. Arguing over the term "abomination" dismisses this very important point.

I see this discussion as having two points that must be addressed. The first is whether or not the Church will be true to its purpose of calling humankind to the saving Grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus. The road is narrow and no philosophical argument will widen it.

Second, we must, as pastors, continue to expound that we all are "sinners" saved by Grace. I do not preach simply about a given sin, but all sin. I do not preach surrender to a sinful nature, but victory over a sinful nature. I do not teach simply of the cause and effect of one behavior that leads to sin but a knowledge of behaviors that lead to sin. This requires more that thinking up "feel good" sermons. It requires us to be aware of all that is happening or being revealed in secular interpetation of social, political, economic as well as "religious" issues and apply the Word of God to them. This requires study.

What is clear to me, is that the Architect of the universe decreed an order that we ignore. Sure, we preach to the ladies in the congregation, but do we call those males that we appoint or elect to offices of leadership to really lead? To lead by act and deeds? When we ignore and modify the plans of the architect .. we get strange results.

We have a choice. Israel of the Old Testament, had a choice. They experienced and are experiencing the effects of a Covenant Law Suit. They failed to fulfill their commitment. A true study of the Book of the Revelation will tell their fate.

Bishop Adams was right in his decision. What is your decision? Is it for Jesus or "Not this Man, but Barabbas."

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2000

Sometimes Jesus allowed "proxy" faith. Stand in

LOOK AT Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, Son thy sins be forgiven thee. Jesus honored the faith of the man's friends. WE DO THIS ALL THE TIME FOR THOSE WE LOVE; GO TO GOD FOR THEM.

IT'S TIME TO STAND IN THE GAP:

They entered the roof of the house probably (PETER'S) according to custom easily repaired; however they did something BOLD. (NOT STUPID) TO GET HELP. IT'S TIME FOR REAL MEN TO STAND UP AND HELP. MANHOOD IS STRONG AND COMMANDS HONOR AND GIVES HONOR. IT CAN DO SOMETHING.

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (He saith to the sick of the palsy.) I say unto thee, Arise take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.vs 10, 11

Sins forgiven Total Healing Restored to Society

This IS WHAT THE AME CHURCH HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT HELPING OTHERS HELP THEMSELVES. IT HAS NOT CHANGED. (SELF-HELP)

HUMANITY IS WORTH SAVING. JESUS THINKS SO: HE DIED FOR US. THIS MAKES FOR A GOOD SERMON.

OBSERVATIONS

CREATOR IS THE PROPER WORD not Architect fate is not Biblical

predestination is better choose to be chosen

PSALM 119:9 WHEREWITHAL SHALL A YOUNG MAN CLEANSE HIS WAY? BY TAKING HEED THERETO ACCORDING TO THY WORD.

-- Anonymous, November 03, 2000

Are we debating homosexuality as wether it is right or wrong? or wether or not it lines up with our personal values and mores? I must caution us from using the bible as "the weapon of choice" when it comes to excluding people from the ministry of Jesus Christ because if we start doing that we will start excluding women from ministry. Many of us were outraged when the Souther Baptist voted to stop ordaining women but they backed up their decision with the bible. They too quoted scriptures. Let us also remember that slavery was backed up with scriptures from the bible. Hitler killed the Jews and quoted scripture to justify his actions. So, please let us be ever mindful of these past events and how the bible was used to justify our oppression. So, if your going to exclude homosexuals from ministry, you will have to pick another avenue because we have injured enough people by throwing bad interpretations of scriptures around.

When the church, especially the black church, starts to debate homosexuality it always bothers me because this is a subject that we will discuss all night long, hold conferences on and even bring in experts, but we are reluctant to will speak out against clergy sexual misconduct. Many clergy-persons have sexual relations with women other than their wives and knowingly get away with it. Or better yet when are we going to start debating clergy who are wife beaters and child molesters? We have a clergy sexual misconduct book that seems to favor the abuser and despises the abused. When are we going to start bringing these relevant issue to the table? When are we going to start saying we will not ordain wife-beaters, rapist, child-molester, and men who are hatters of women?

I'd rather take communion from a person whose life lines up with the message of Jesus Christ, the message of love, justice, peace, and hope than receive it from a person who smacked his wife that morning and molested his son or daughter the night before. These are the people we need to start discussing because to keep silent about these issues tells those who have been broken by life and battered by the world that we really don't care, and I don't think that is what the A.M.E. church is saying or is it?

babydoll kennedy

-- Anonymous, November 03, 2000

Babydoll--

All the issues (and then some) you pointed out need to be brought to light and discussed including homosexuality.

If the discussion brings on a decline in ordination or men/women of God are seated until deliverence has come, then that's the stance that needs to be taken.

What happens when people need counseling (Christian & non-Christian) on how to be set free from domestic violence, fornication, adultery, homosexuality & other things that bind us & need to know how to have a true relationship with Christ?

Once we give our lives to Christ we are supposed to go out & teach, testify, evangelize. How can a fornicating, adulterous, homosexual, spousebeating person truthfully tell anyone how they can be delivered when they need to be set free themselves? It sounds hypocritical, but it's even more than that. It's contrary to the word of God...and that is my concern.

When it comes to being in leadership holiness must apply.

We can't stifle someone from sharing the Word. God is always good and regardless of the mess we allow our flesh to get into, we can still tell of his goodness (He didn't wipe us out in our sin). But when deliverence from adultery, fornication, lying, domestic abuse or whatever the bondage is, Praise the Lord!!!, there's something else we can testify about...the true saving, forgiving, cleansing, delivering power of God.

After deliverance, then restoration......

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, November 03, 2000

I have read most of the responses to the "Homosexual" article. Reading a few ignorant responses reaffirms for me that we are definitely in the last days. We must watch as well as pray. The days are evil and people are becoming wicked and wiser. There is a big difference with finally ordaining a woman in the roll of bishop and accepting people in a church leadership position that go against the very oracles of God. While I do not wish to wound anyoneBs spirit, God has standards. The church has become so worldly and politically correct that whatever train of thought is the most popular appeals to us. Whatever happened to being different and making a difference. There was a time when the world knew we were Christians by our dress, our walk and our talk. Now we sound no different than the world. We donBt want to be different and we are not rooted and grounded in Christ. We just move whichever way the wind is blowing. There is no resistance in us, nothing that pulls us up short or troubles our spirits. How can we show the truth to people who are bound when we ourselves need to be taught? Christ came to heal and deliver those that were bound. We are charged with a high calling in Christ one response was in essence "homosexuality is coming to pulpits near you" and I wonder is anyone else besides me disturbed by those words. Yet how can we point our fingers at anyone when our own backyards are filthy? As the priest so the people. We are looking down on the average homosexual yet there are church leaders hiding their perverse homosexual lifestyles behind the skirts of their (in-name-only) wives. Oh yes, its true in the church and in AME to. There are pastors, elders and bishops behaving like monkeys in heat, humping on and running the members down for sexual favors in the church. How can we stick our chests out and declare and preach against sin when we allow and pay the salaries of church leaders who aren't living a nickel worth of dog crap. We have to stop excusing our leaders and ourselves with that stupid saying Bwe sin everyday by thought, by word and deedB. Those words are a major cop-out and an excuse not to live right. If you desire to be kept God will keep you. He will keep you in perfect peace. Sin is sin and there are not big sins or little sins. The wages of sin is death. God has set before us the way of life and death. Choose life, eternal.

-- Anonymous, November 03, 2000

Ms. Kennedy; If a preacher in the AME Church does those things, we have the means in place to correct that. You must first have proof, then you must bring that proof to the Annual Conference and present it to the conference. This is done to protect the accused and the accuser. The Ministerial efficency Committee will investigate nad present their findings to the conference for action. Again: We love the sinner, we hate the sin. "If we confess our sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus, the righteous. He is quich to forgive us." If we say that we have no sin, we lie.

-- Anonymous, November 03, 2000

PAUL SPEAKS TO A YOUNG MAN - TIMOTHY

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom; Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall turn unto fables. II TIM. 4:1-4

STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. BUT SHUN PROFANE AND VAIN BABBLINGS: FOR THEY WILL INCREASE UNTO MORE UNGODLINESS. II TIM. 2:15, 16

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Evangelist Robinson! Please tell me what you are saying. I understand the scriptures, but I need to know your application of them to this issue. Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Praying 4 the church. He's coming. Love. Watch. Pray.

-- Anonymous, November 07, 2000

Bro. Watkins, I thank you for forwarding me a copy of your thesis and your plan for the ministry you have towards those who society shuns because of their sexual orientation. I wanted to respond on this forum and not in a private email to you because I do not want anything to be taken out of context. My opinion on the issue is that no one should be discriminated against based upon race, creed, color, or sexual orientation. I have read several of the comments on this board and many I find quite enlightning. You have a very good view of what you see for your ministry as you reach out to those who have experienced what you have. We cannot effectively Minister to people if we have not been where they have been, that is why Jesus suffered and imparted grace to us, he experienced humanity to free it and save it from itself. The question then becomes do I stay where they are or take them to a new place. Therefore when he rose he justified us and brought about our liberty. If he had stayed in the grave we would not be right with God, we would still be in the state of death. Consider this, yes there are people within the church who are living alternative lifestyles. We should not treat them any different to do that would make the cause of Christ null. It is not fair or right to marry someone of the opposite gender because you are having other urges. It will have emotional scars on the both participants as well as on offspring. These are situations that every Pastor, preacher, teacher, exhorter should and must deal with. In the Spirit of Love and not to condemn because we are to be light that can guide and lead someone to Jesus. Bibical interpretation was used to enslave and keep us submissive but that is why we must study to show ourselves approved a worker that is not ashamed who can rightly divide the word of truth. You used scriptures that many have taken out of context to be abusive and misleading. I have even used them in the past myself when I was younger and inexperienced/unfeeling during another stage of my life(BC-Before Christ). He has imparted to me love, compassion, and understanding that I can hear His voice more clearly to reach those in need. In the scriptures you used I disagree with your interpretation as well as the author you reference but my love for all people still remains the same. I have been in services where preachers, experienced and novice, have used these scriptures to beat people down, and then compell them to come to Christ. I have had to let the person know that I disagree with the method and I usually try to agree to diagree. I feel that their is a need for delivernce which can only come about by prayer, fasting, studying the word of God, and love. This is my opinion. I feel that we as a church need to be specific when it comes to our ordinances, but the same way I feel about a Preacher who is adulterous, fornicates, steals, lies, cheats, etc. Sin is sin. should have to be dealt with. We cannot turn away from these issues that look us in the face daily. Ministry is more than a profession to me it is a way of life. If I am not leading a life that is pleasing to God himself I ask Him to speak to me, guide me, and if I must sit I will sit. Led by the Spirit, under the move of the Holy Ghost. Ask God to continue to speak to you and lead you. In the end let whatever His will is be done. There are those of us in this dicussion who I am sure will pray with you, converse with you, and fellowship with you in Love and never condemnation.

Min. Jerome Stembridge NY Annual Conference 1st Episcopal District

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2000

REMEMBER LOT'S WIFE - COMPLACENCY

GEN. 19:26 OT 26. But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

LUKE 17:32 NT 32. Remember Lot's wife.

HEBREW GREEK KEY STUDY BIBLE (TITLES)

WRONG AND RIGHT WON'T MIX II COR. 6:14-18 14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

HEALTHY TEACHING

I TIM. 6:3-6

3. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6. But godliness with contentment is great gain.

See I TIM. 6:20, 21 20. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21. Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen

WE TOLD THE TRUTH

II PET. 1-16

16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TEACH THE TRUTH

II PET. 2:6-11

6. And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7. And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

THE END OF TIME

II PET. CH 3 1. This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2. That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. 18. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

THE LAST TIMES JUDE

So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ISAIAH 55:11 (GOD)

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2000

The Epistles Of Paul

The Epistles of the Apostle Paul have a very distinctive character. All Scripture, up to the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion, looks forward to the cross, and has primarily in view Israel, and the blessing of the earth through the Messianic kingdom. But "hid in God" (Eph. 3.9) was an unrevealed fact-the interval of time between the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and His return in glory; and an unrevealed purpose-the outcalling of the ecclesia, the Church which is Christ's body. In Mt. 16 our Lord announced that purpose, but wholly without explanation as to how, when, what materials, that Church should be built, or what should be its position, relationships, privileges, or duties. All this constitutes precisely the scope of the Epistles of Paul. They develop the doctrine of the Church. In his letters to seven Gentile Churches (in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica), the Church, the "mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God" (Eph.3), is fully revealed, and fully instructed as to her unique place in the counsels and purposes of God. Through Paul alone we know that the Church is not an organization, but an organism, the body of Christ; instinct with His life, and heavenly in calling, promise, and destiny. Through him alone we know the nature, purpose, and form of organization of local Churches, and the right conduct of such gatherings. Through him alone do we know that "we shall not all sleep," that "the dead in Christ shall rise first," and that living saints shall be "changed" and caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His return. But to Paul was also committed the unfolding of the doctrines of grace which were latent in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Paul originates nothing, but unfolds everything, concerning the nature and purpose of the law; the ground and means of the believer's justification, sanctification, and glory; the meanings of the death of Christ, and the position, walk, expectation, and service of the Christian. Paul, converted by the personal ministry of the Lord in glory, is distinctively the witness to a glorified Christ, Head over all things to the Church which is His body, as the Eleven were to Christ in the flesh, the Son of Abraham and of David. The chronological order of Paul's Epistles is believed to be as follows:1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, Philemon, Colossians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 Timothy, Titus, 2 Timothy. Hebrews has a distinctive place, nor can the order of that book amongst the writings of Paul be definitely fixed. Selected

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2000

Rev John:

I reviewed many of the messages written on AME board since October 2000 and found yours to be the most enlightening and close to my own views regarding homosexuality and the AME reponse. As almost two years has passed, do you still hold to these same views? Anyone else? --- yyz

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2002