As you know Halloween is coming up soon... and I am wondering how you deal with it.

I am not as concerned with the history or what takes place on Halloween (though if you wish to share for others that is o.k.) as I am wondering how you deal with it.

What I am wondering is what you do on Halloween and what you allow your kids to do?

Do you stay home and welcome the neighborhood kids?

Do you allow your kids to go "trick or treating?"

Do you allow your kids to dress up in Bible costumes? Is this o.k. or is it just a comprimise to fit in with the world?

Do you have a party at church?

These are just a few questions and I am curious to get some of your different opinions.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000

Answers

It's no more "pagan" than Hannakuh!!

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

Can you quote from Moses please about the necessity of Hanakkuh??

Also....please quote from me any sources that indicate Jesus celebrated Hanakkuh???

That's a new one on me.....I've never even heard an orthodox Jew say that.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

I'm sorry Alan...but John 10:22 is a part of the "uninspired text." That's not a valid quotation. (Right!!)

Alan....I was very well aware of that passage and wanted everyone to again see your "double standard." You believe John 10:22.........but you obviously reject vss. 24-25. Let me quote for everyone......

vs. 24....."The Jews gathered around Him, saying, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ tell us plainly."

vs. 25....Jesus answered, "I did tell you, BUT YOU DID NOT BELIEVE."

And Alan.....you obviously don't believe vs. 30 either......let me quote it for everyone......

vs. 30..."I and the Father are one."

I would imagine Alan.....you would have been one of the ones in vs. 31......"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone Him."

There you go folks.....another shining example of Alan's "cut and paste" method of biblical interpretation.

OK Al.....go ahead now and tell us which parts are inspired and which ones are not......yawn!

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2000

Lee....

Do you wear a wedding ring?? Do you know any Christians in the Church of Christ who do??

What about getting married in the church of Christ?? Do they allow weddings inside the building??

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Brother Lee.....

Get to studying....and you will find out that everything I mentioned is of pagan Roman origin.

The wedding ring was born out of pagan Roman practice.

Previous to Constantine making Christianity the "de facto" religion of the Roman Empire.....weddings were always a civil service. There was never such a thing in the early church as....."a church wedding in a building."

However, weddings were always a big deal in Roman paganism. In fact, if you dig deep...you will find the following Roman pagan practices.....done still in weddings and/or marriage today....such as....

June weddings Carrying the bride over the threshold Throwing the boquet Flowers at the wedding (always a symbol of fertility)

When Contantine did what he did.....marriage then and only then....became a ceremony that was overseen by the church....specifically....the Catholic church.

As per Halloween....I don't celebrate Halloween....but I don't make a big deal of it either. My kids are allowed to decorate with "non- scary" creations of God (i.e., bats, spiders, cats, pumpkins). They are allowed to carve pumpkins and bake the seeds.

As per Christmas....granted the church of the N.T. did not have Christmas. But I find nothing "un Scriptural" about celebrating the Incarnational. If you will study why the Church of the 4th century celebrated Christmas....you might be impressed. I think it's wrong just to shrug it off as paganism....without learning the reason for the advent of the celebration....especially when so much of what else we do (even in the church)....has taints of Roman paganism still attached.

Easter?? I've always had more of a problem with that....(which is why I have always refereed to the day as "Resurrection Sunday.") Yes....I know that every Sunday is and should be a celebration of the Resurrection.

But thank goodness there is at least still one day a year when people think of the resurrection. I can count a good number of people in my 19 years of ministry who first time to church was "Resurrection Sunday".....and the later made commitments to Christ which resulted in them celebrating the Resurrection every Sunday around the Lord's Table.

I guess it would be called using any opportunity I can....and open door the Lord gives me.....to further the gospel.

Just my thoughts......good or bad.

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Sorry about the spelling and grammar.....been up since 5 AM and I'm whopped.

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Well, I don't see why Christians shouldn't celebrate Halloween. It's no more pagan than any other Christian holiday...

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

The difference is that nothing about Halloween is Christian (and I know that you don't agree with Christianity, Alan...) but for others all I see in Halloween is evil.

Although I agree that Christmas may not be necessarily a "Christian" holiday, we do use it to bring glory to God and it is not evil (and maybe a Christmas gets closer we can discuss that then).

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

If Hannuka was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for you Danny boy.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

Oh, I'm sorry Danny. I forgot that you know nothing of Jesus' religion, his culture, and his faith. Hannukah is a festival celebrating the rededication of the Temple following its defilement during the Maccabean war just a couple of hundred years before Jesus. It was long after Moses. It is not a major holiday at all, but a rather minor one. As for Jesus observing Hannukah, please read John 10:22.
Oh, and Danny, you really might try to actually learn something about the man you regard as the basis of your faith. You, like many in here, are woefully ignorant of the Torah, and what it teaches....

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2000

Alan,

<<>>

What's the Torah got to do with Hanakkuh? By your own admission, the celebration began long after the Torah was completed. At least try to be consistant and accurate in your unfounded attacks.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2000

Well, Marc......

Either everyone got so off track that they forgot your original questions... or they just don't want to answer! :-)

-- Anonymous, October 13, 2000

We have had this discussion before, but I don't recall the title of the thread.

Duane...is it still in the archives?

-- Anonymous, October 14, 2000

The scriptures teach that we, as Christians, are a holy people. (2 Peter 2:9). We are completely separated from the world and therefore holy as a people for Gods own possession. WE are to present ourselves as a sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable service. (Romans 12:1,2). And therefore we are not to conform to this world but be transformed by the renewal of our minds. Thus every day is a day to be holy unto God. WE do not have any days that are to be more holy than others are. For it is not our "days" that are to be holy. It is our lives that are to be holy. It is ourselves that are to be Holy and not our days. This might help explain why men are so eager to make a "day" holy. It is far easier to do such a thing than it is to make ourselves HOLY unto the Lord. Christ came that we might be holy people not that we might establish holy days taken from unholy pagans. Yes we worship on the first day of the week and observe the Lords Supper by communing with Him. But there are no special holy days to us. (Col. 2:16-23).

But Halloween is a day of evil and has its origin in paganism and no Christian can be holy to God while celebrating a pagan holiday such as this. We are taught to shun the very appearance of evil. So how can we participate in a celebration of all that is evil?

And we should take notice of the pagan origin of many so-called Christian holidays including Christmas and especially Easter and preach against Christians having anything to do with paganism.

Now we are asked to avoid getting into the history of the origin of these holidays and I will comply for now. But we must rid ourselves of the spirit of compromise with these Holidays that do not have their origin in the word of God.

Will you teach your children to compromise the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ in celebrating special days that had their origin in paganism? Will we encourage them to follow the dictates of the Roman Popes in their ridiculous effort to compromise in the name of Christ with pagan rituals in order to swell their numbers and increase their earthly power?

Christ has nothing to do with any of these holidays and neither should any Christian.

My recommendation is that we have our Children at home daily for the reading of the word of God and prayer. And that this daily practice not be interrupted to go trick or treating with the pagans who live around us. And that Christmas day is just another day to continue our faithful service to God. And leave the pagan Christmas tree to the Roman Popes who have no aversion to bowing down to idols! And stop telling your children that Santa Clause is omniscient and he knows if you have been naughty or nice! God is the one that knows what cannot be known by human beings. And Santa Clause is not the giver of perfect gifts since every good and perfect gift comes down from the father of lights.

And stop having Easter egg hunts and connecting the resurrection of Jesus Christ with bunny rabbits and let the world know that this holiday has absolutely NO CONNECTION with the resurrection of Christ!! And the excuse that we are just happy that Easter causes the world to focus on the resurrection and is therefore a good thing is just plain nonsense. We are to daily tell others about the resurrection of Christ and we do not need the help of a pagan holiday to accomplish it. Now, preachers have been known to use this to their advantage and preach on the resurrection on Easter Sunday. What a shame that we elevate the first day of the week during which Easter occurs as a Special Sunday above the first day of every week when we celebrate the resurrection of Christ our Lord.

Well, I have had my say about this matter. AS for me and my house we will avoid all holidays that had their origin among the pagans and will make every day of our lives HOLY UNTO THE LORD!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 19, 2000

For once, Mr. Saffold, I wholly agree with you.

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Lee,

Such an affirmative statement from Alan ought to worry you.

And whats wrong with easter egg hunts? This year my son hunted and slew over 2 dozen of them with his BB gun - it was Great.

Oops, sorry - I forgot....no humor. (But we really did shoot the plastic eggs in order to make a point about "easter" - literally shooting holes in the Pagan aspect)

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Lee,

Thank you for your responce and your opinion... so far it seems that no one else is too concerned with this subject.

I would agree with much of what you said and the fact that we are not to be in the world and we are to be holy. I am glad to see you are against Halloween... I happen to know some people in the non- instrumental CofC that are against Christmas yet celebrate Halloween... to me this makes no sense.

Our family does not cellebrate Halloween, we do not teach our kids about Santa (though we have taught about St. Nick and the origin for their understanding), and we do not do easter egg hunts.

We do however celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ (and teach that it was not the actual day and we are not commanded to celebrate... though not commanded not to either), we do celebrate Easter (I call it resurection Sunday) and we teach that we celebrate the resurecton every Lord's Day.

However, the reason that I asked this question is because as our kids get older and as I see more and more that so many people in the church have no problem with these things... I, as the preacher am left wondering how to deal with these things and stand up for what I believe without offending.

And BTW... if we have a Christmas tree or do an Easter egg hunt... does this mean that we are pagan? Just because the original roots come from the pagans does not mean this is why people do it. I wonder how many of our daily activities have pagan root in one way or another... Hanakuh was mentioned... from what I understand this was not initiated by God, yet Jesus celebrated.

BTW, I did not ask that you do not share the origin of these holidays... I just said I was not interested in it... only because I have done my own study and understand it, however, Lee or others, if you want or feel it neccessary to share go ahead.

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Brother Marc:

You have said:

Thank you for your responce and your opinion... so far it seems that no one else is too concerned with this subject.

I am happy that you brought up the subject and appreciate your allowing me to let off some steam about the matter. It is regrettable that not many among us seem to be very concerned about this issue.

And you have correctly point to the truth that:

I happen to know some people in the non- instrumental CofC that are against Christmas yet celebrate Halloween... to me this makes no sense.

I know some as well and confess that I cannot even begin to actually account for it expect on the basis that they did it as Children themselves and see it as nothing more than harmless fun for kids. But it is indeed extremely inconsistent to not celebrate Christmas because of its pagan connections and enjoy Halloween in spite of its pagan behavior! I try to discourage it when ever I can though I must confess that it is hard to get others to understand when the kids are having such a wonderful time pretending to be ghost and goblins!

Then you say:

We do however celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ (and teach that it was not the actual day and we are not commanded to celebrate... though not commanded not to either), we do celebrate Easter (I call it resurection Sunday) and we teach that we celebrate the resurecton every Lord's Day.

I know that you and I disagree just at this point. It is hard for me to see any good reason that we should celebrate these days that are obviously originated from pagan ideas rather than scriptural ones.

You mention your reason for asking the question as follows:

However, the reason that I asked this question is because as our kids get older and as I see more and more that so many people in the church have no problem with these things... I, as the preacher am left wondering how to deal with these things and stand up for what I believe without offending.

I am afraid that I am honestly not the one to help you in this matter. I am not one that is able to always tell others the truth of Gods word without offending them though I have, in the past, spent much time trying to do so. The truth itself is offensive at times and in those situations it is impossible to speak the truth so as to not offend. If the truth itself is offensive you can do nothing more than speak it and allow your audience to chose whether they will take offense to it. For they have a choice. But the teacher of the offensive truth has no choice but to obey God and teach it. Let the truth be spoken. The same heat that melts butter hardens clay! And in the same way, the same truth that melts the godly heart so that it can be molded into the image of Christ hardens the rebellious heart. So that it cannot be shaped or molded into anything other that the shape it took before the heat of truth was applied. But we cannot avoid our responsibility to speak the truth about these things. Therefore let us speak the truth and pray that those who have the choice between being transformed by it or being hardened by it will chose to be transformed by the renewing of their minds that they may prove what is that acceptable will of the Lord. But let us not worry too much about the offensive nature of the truth. Gods word will do the work for which he sent it to do. When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost those who heard him were pricked in their hearts. It seems to me that we must be willing to use the sword of the spirit which is the word of God without fearing that others will be pricked or cut to the heart as was the case of those who heard Steven preach. For he said, Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears ye do always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did so do ye. His audience was offended and it was not his manner of presentation that offended them it was the truth that he presented that offended them. We cannot preach the whole truth without offense. Even Christ our Lord was offensive when he told the truth that offends the hard hearted. We must know that some seed will fall upon stony ground but let us sow it every where even into places. I do not mean by saying this that you are afraid to offend anyone. In fact, I am sure that such is not the case with you. And I fully agree with and understand your kind and Christian spirit that seeks diligently to ensure that if anyone is offended that it is the truth and not the messenger bearing the truth that offends. I simply mean that I believe that this is one of those truths that will offend others no matter how nicely and politely you tell it.

Then you asked:

And BTW... if we have a Christmas tree or do an Easter egg hunt... does this mean that we are pagan? Just because the original roots come from the pagans does not mean this is why people do it. I wonder how many of our daily activities have pagan root in one way or another... Hanukah was mentioned... from what I understand this was not initiated by God, yet Jesus celebrated.

I do not believe that Christians who have a Christmas Tree or an Easter egg hunt are pagans. Nor do I believe that because a holiday has pagan roots that such is the reason that people do it, especially since many of them are not even aware of the roots of these holidays. But we are talking about what we will teach and how we will teach it. We are told as Evangelist or preachers to, speak thou the things that become sound doctrine: (Titus 2:1). And we are to teach things that will prevent the word of God from being blasphemed (Titus 2:5). It is very different to say that the people are pagan" if they do these things or that paganism is their reason for doing them and to say that it is a practice that did not come from God. And that it has many elements in it that come from paganism and that because of such Christians should avoid it so that the word of God be not blasphemed. And, if any of our activities have pagan roots, we had better dig them up and eliminate them as Christian activities. For our God is a jealous God. I know that God did not originate Hanukah but it did not originate nor did the influence or spirit of paganism animate it. It came from sincere people of God who rejoiced at the rebuilding of the temple. I think that if we were to find a parallel that fits our discussion we would have to find a holiday with pagan connections and origins that Jesus actually observed before we could argue that it is ok to observe Christmas and Easter based upon any holiday observed by Christ. I do not believe that you will find that Christ celebrated any pagan holidays or practiced even nominally any activities that were connected in any way with paganism. If the Lord had wanted us to observe the day of his birth he would have arranged it. And he did want us to observe the day of his resurrection and he arranged for us to do so on the first day of the week in a certain way. He did not arrange for us to select one day out of a year to celebrate his resurrection with pagan symbolism. This is a simple matter of our following the word of God and not being lead or guided or influenced by anyone but God in these matters related to Him and our worship of Him.

Then you justly remind me:

BTW, I did not ask that you do not share the origin of these holidays... I just said I was not interested in it... only because I have done my own study and understand it, however, Lee or others, if you want or feel it necessary to share go ahead.

I apologize for I did not mean to imply that you did not want us to share the origin of these holidays. In fact you even told us that we could if we wanted to. I only meant to say that I was honoring your statement that you were not interested in that information. I think that your purpose was to keep us on the question that you had asked which was a good and practical one and it was my intent to honor your wishes not to detract from your question as it was asked. However, I did imply that we were restricted from discussing the history of these holidays and I apologize for that is not what you did and I should have worded my comments in that regard more carefully. Please forgive.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Mr. Cecil:

You have said:

For once, Mr. Saffold, I wholly agree with you.

I am glad to hear it. It is good when men can on occasion agree with one another. I pray that we will find more agreement among ourselves.

Mark:

You have said:

Lee, Such an affirmative statement from Alan ought to worry you.

Why? Is not the truth the truth regardless of who states it? I am actually happy that Mr. Cecil and myself can find some point of agreement on a matter of truth. It may be a better place to begin than our original clash, which I am sure we will return to when I have sufficient time to apply to such a discussion. I have not met any man with whom I disagree with on every subject. I may yet find someone like that but so far I have not and if I did it would be a rare thing indeed.

Brother Danny:

You have asked:

Do you wear a wedding ring?? The answer is yes.

Do you know any Christians in the Church of Christ who do?? The answer is yes. What about getting married in the church of Christ??

The answer is yes that Christians do get married. And Even Paul said that marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled.

Do they allow weddings inside the building??

The answer is yes. And we all attend as Christ himself attended the wedding in Cana.

And if you are now going to show me that these things all originated with and are influenced by paganism then I may have to look into it for I have not thought much about it. I may be just like those who are ignorant of the origin of Christmas and Easter in this regard and will need to rethink what I have been doing so that I can be consistent in my practice. I am not really aware of the history of the origin of the wedding and the wedding ring so I am sure that you may be helpful in correcting my current practice. For if these things are pagan practices I will have to cease doing them and encourage my brethren to do the same. But that will be something that I need to study. Nevertheless my mind is made up about Halloween, Christmas, and Easter. These are not from God and thus are not Christian holidays by any means.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Brother Mark:

You have asked:

And whats wrong with easter egg hunts?

I complained of the connection of easter egg hunts with the resurrection of Christ. I cannot see anything wrong with hunting whether it you hunt eggs or chickens or deer. In fact hunting is a great sport and fun. But I do not know why these eggs are to be called easter eggs. If hunting eggs is so much fun why not hunt them without any connection to the Passover or the resurrection of Christ. That is the problem. To pretend that when we go Easter egg hunting we are in some way remembering the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord is blasphemous. And to connect Bunny Rabbits with the serious subject of the Resurrection of Christ is equally blasphemous. You would have had more fun if you had gone rabbit hunting instead of Eater egg hunting and you would be more spiritually astute if you keep both easter eggs and Bunny rabbits out of any celebration of the resurrection of Christ.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2000

Brother Danny:

You have said:

Brother Lee..... Get to studying....and you will find out that everything I mentioned is of pagan Roman origin.

I promise you Brother Danny that I will get to studying. As has always been the case, when you question something that I have said I do sincerely step back and get to studying. I do this because of my great respect for you and the fact that you always offer EVIDENCE to support what you say and usually in such a way that one must go and do some serious research. I appreciate that excellent trait in your writing in this forum.

I appreciate correction and those who have been with us in this forum for any length of time know that when you question anything that I say I stop and take notice and review and research to examine my thinking. This is because you take the time to offer evidence to support your claims.

I cannot say that I am in agreement with all that you have said until I do some studying. But I promise to do just that. As I said in my last post I had not really given much thought to the pagan connections to the wedding and wedding rings and such.

Thanks for your thought provoking comments. You have aroused my curiosity and I will begin to do some serious research of this matter about weddings and wedding rings.

And I want you to know that appreciate your taking the time after being up since 5 AM in the morning to write me about these things. I know what 5 AM in the morning means, brother. I appreciate that very much.

I always thank God for you and I pray that he will abundantly bless you and Jenny and your entire family and the work that you do in His service.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, October 21, 2000

Danny,

Thank you for your comments... they were very insightful and I agree with your comments on Christmas and Easter (still thinking and praying on Halloween).

I did not know that about the weddings... however, I have often wondered and have mentioned here if much of what we do has pagan origins, yet are not done with this purpose in mind.

I believe that Halloween and the other holidays are going to have to be a personal matter for each person and we must not be dogmatic about our beliefs but direct people with the scriptures.

I leave you with two scriptures that are helpful when thinking about doing anything:

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 (NASB) "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

Philippians 4:8 (NASB) "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things."

-- Anonymous, October 21, 2000

Marc,

It is a little late for a response, but I just have seen, since I've been sittting for my grandchildren this week while their parents attend special meetings at their church, a hand-out sent home to my son and daughter-in-law about a party at school for the children.

It transpired yesterday.

It says:

HOLYWEEN (yes, 'holy'ween)~ Taking the day back for JESUS!

'It will be an afternoon filled with fun, games, and stories!

'FUN!: Decorating Cupcakes Draw what you are thankful for Tell what Bible Character you weould like to be

'GAMES! Apple Run Marble in the Bag Balloon Pop Pinata

'STORY! Read a story with Popcorn and Drink

We will be hiding a gift for each child.

Everyone will pitch in and make a Scarecrow.

<><....<><....<><....<><....<><

There are drawings of fruit and vegetables with cornucopias all around the edges.

It's cute.

We went from allowing our children to go out (many years ago) to downplaying it and substituting other activities for it; and explaining to our children why we didn't accept it.

Our church has for many years had a substitute Christ-honoring activity so that the children do not feel deprived, as children sometimes will.

We (our church) do the same on New Year's Eve with activities at a local large gym, which is miraculously ( ;-) ) empty on New Year's Eve. We try to leave for home immediately after the turn of the clock, so that we can beat the ones who have over-indulged home.

On hallowe'en, I do hand out candy and a tract and next year a small Gideon Bible. (I forgot to get them in time this year).

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2000

Of course those grandchildren go to a Christian School.

New Covenant Christian.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2000