I don't know very much about the set-up of the Christian Church. It seems some call their preacher the *Pastor* and I am wondering what all that entails??

Thanks!

Nelta

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Answers

I agree with Duane!!

Sorry Duane.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

John....

If one takes the term "ordination" in the Catholic sense....then you are very correct in being suspicious of it.

However, in the strictly biblical sense....ordination is nothing more than a "setting apart." Therefore one can be "set apart" (i.e., ordained) to be an elder/shepherd/pastor....or one can be set apart to me a missionary (as in Acts 13)....or one can be set apart to the work of an evangelist (as such seems to be the case for Timothy and Titus).

In all honesty.....the "big deal" about the ordination of preachers is little more than a requirement.....in order to fulfill certain IRS regulations....that then qualify "ordained" ministers for various tax benefits.

I don't think it is intended that the ordination of a preacher is a "big deal" anymore than the ordination of an elder, et. al. It is not a big deal in an "ecclesiastical" sense.....but it is in an "IRS" sense.

Don't know if that answers your question or makes things worse.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

That's it Connie....blow it off. It's always "someone else's fault"...right??

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

To me, the term Pastor is a relatively recent term being accepted in the Christian Church. When I was growing up it wasn't very accepted. The preacher was called the "minister" and was addressed as "brother" so-and-so. I think that because of Jesus' admonition not to call anyone "Father" or "Rabbi", the Christian Church has been very sensitive on this issue and been afraid of using any titles for the preacher. But that's just my singular perspective, and it may also be colored by the fact that I have lived my entire life on the west coast. We tend to do things a bit differently than our brothers on the other side of the Rockies.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Nelta and John,

The words 'pastor' and 'shepherd' mean the same thing.

In John 21:15, Jesus tells Peter to "Tend My sheep", which is what a shepherd or a pastor does.

Ephesians 4:11-13 says: [NASB]

11: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as PASTORS and teachers,

12: FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF SERVICE, TO THE BUILDING UP OF THE BODY OF CHRIST;

13: Until we all attain to the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ".

So the term 'pastor' or even 'minister' is as Biblically acceptable as preacher, teacher, evangelist, shepherd, or prophet.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Oh, yes,

'Elder' and 'presbyter'.

If any should not be used as a title, it would be 'teacher', because 'Rabbi' means 'teacher'.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

That subject has been discussed ad nauseum in an earlier thread:

Click here


-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Humorist! Humorist! I forgot that one. ;-)

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Duane, that was an interesting bunch of posts in 1999 on the subject. My question was not what the word means but what the Christian Church means by it. Is it comprable to the use the Baptist have of the title? I believe they (and I could be wrong) consider THE leader to be their pastor. Then there are the Pentecostal group who consider their Pastor as totally in charge. On T.V. the ones on our channel 14 seem to follow completely the one man. A well known preacher of their groups said yesterday (on T.V.) don't be jealous of what the Lord blesses your Pastor with. I guess not! Out of the other side of his mouth he was saying God expects each to plants seeds by sending in all the money they can, to the point of borrowing.

Nelta

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Nelta, you wrote:

My question was not what the word means but what the Christian Church means by it.

Ideally those should be one and the same...

Without beating a dead (or dying) horse, we ought to utilize Biblical terminology as often as possible. When most people think of "pastor" today they think of the "preacher" of a church. Yet pastor means shepherd, so that would mean that the pastor is the shepherd, exclusively, of a congregation, as if one guy was the shepherd and everyone else was a sheep. This mental picture does not reflect the true nature of first century church government, since we know there was more than one shepherd in each congregation. We have no record of any congregation having one head shepherd until the 2nd or 3rd century, (the monarchial bishop), which digressed into a "head" shepherd over a group of churches, then later, a pope over all of the churches.

In the interest of restoring the 1st century church, and to avoid the appearance that the preacher is the "boss", many Christian Churches and Churches of Christ call their preacher "preacher", or "evangelist" or "minister". (Although all christians are ministers, so this could be misleading too!)

Some Christian Churches, however, don't think it a big deal, and therefore accomodate current (denominational?) thinking by calling their preacher "The" pastor.

I prefer to do just the opposite, by calling elder Joe "pastor" Joe in public, in order to remind people that the elders are really the pastors...

Hope that helps some.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Who let the dogs out?

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

- about the dog- It was cool at first... but now it makes it hard to read. How do you get it off the screen. *** On the issue of pastors:

'Pastors' is just a fancy word used in Ephesians 4:11, KJV, to translate a Greek word translated 'shepherds' elsewhere.

The Greek verb 'to pastor' is translated 'tend' or 'feed' in the KJV. Elders are told to pastor the flock of God. Paul compared his ministry to pastoring a flock. The Bible also speaks of some 'pastors and teachers.' I don't think elders necessarily are the only gifts of pastor to the church.

The Bible talks about there being elders in every church, and also elders in every city. Elders were called bishops. They were commanded to pastor, which means sheep-tend, or take care of sheep.

There is a common practice of one man speaking at a meeting and everyone else being quiet. In some churches, only that man can speak. Some people think that 'pastor' refers to a man who does the talking. But in the Bible, I Corinthians 14, and Hebrews 10:24-25, we see that the members of the congregation spoke in meetings. There wasn't just one man who spoke.

******

I think Southern Baptists tend to see pastors as having more authority than some of their other Baptist counterparts do. It seems like denominations that started in the South tend to see pastors as having more authority.

On Pentecostal pastors- sounds like more of a Word of faith Charismatic than a Pentecostal, Nelta. Some Pentecostals have authoratarian pastors, and others have a hired member and a board of elders (or 'deacons' if they are set up like Baptists.) 'Pentecostal' doesn't tell much about a churches system of church government. Some Pentecostal denominations are predominantly Southern. One of these has a lot more control given to the pastor.

Sometimes I put 'pastor' in quotes when I use it to refer to a job title, rather than someone who tends sheep in the Biblical sense. I didn't in this message.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

I think it is a matter of pride to insist that one term is 'better' than another. It shows a lack of humility to say: "Oh, those prideful people who call the leaders in their churches 'pastors' are not as good or spiritual as we are, who call our leaders 'preacher', 'evangelist', or 'elder', never 'pastor' or 'minister'!" Nyah, nyah, nyah, nah!!!!

I have heard that God and Jesus likened us to sheep who need tending because sheep are so stupid that they will wander off and get lost if someone is not tending them. It sure fits.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

We have several pastors in our church and they are all presented by the elders who then present them to the congregation, which then (at a later time) votes on them.

Then we repect and get to know and pray for those who labor among us.

I think whatever we call our 'ministers' among us, the different terms should be regarded as respect and not worship, or 'double honor'.

When you call the main person who labors among you 'Preacher' or 'Evangelist' how does that differ from my calling mine 'Pastor'?

There were overlapping responsibilites.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

I have been a "pastor" in a church I previously attended. In that church (a rather large one) the membership was organized into home fellowship cell groups. Each group had a group of two or three "pastors" (one leader, one or two assistants). I thought the term appropriate as we were small "flocks" in the larger church. We were even "set apart" by laying on of hands to do that task.

Question: If the Pastor or Minister or whatever is a preaching Elder in the congregation, why the big to-do about "ordained" ministers, etc.? Where did the whole concept of "ordination" come from? (The very word sounds Catholic, to me.) Are we not setting one Elder above the others? Just thinking out loud ...

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

Paul ordained elders and bishops and even preachers, I think.

The Catholic church has taken words used in the NT writings and created entities from them which really are not found operating in the Scriptures the way they operate in the RCC.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

John,

Ordination is also necessary to legaly marry people in some states (at least it is in MN where I currently minister).

That is a whole other subject... why is someone "legally" married because I am "ordained" and say they are married?... that is off the subject and needs not be answered here if you don't want:)

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

Connie, you wrote:

I think it is a matter of pride to insist that one term is 'better' than another.

Okay, then, let's call them popes. Or gods...

Are you saying it is a matter of pride to love God and His Word in such a way as to desire to call Bible things by Bible names? Just wondering.

Then you wrote:

It shows a lack of humility to say: "Oh, those prideful people who call the leaders in their churches 'pastors' are not as good or spiritual as we are..."

Funny, I don't remember anyone saying that.

Do any of the posts in this thread show a lack of humility? If so, cut and paste them, and comment accordingly. When you invent a straw man and then knock him down it does little to influence the real men (and women) who remain standing.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

No, Duane,

We can't call them 'popes', because 'pope' means 'father', We are to call no man 'father', 'Rabbi' or 'teacher' as a title.

But I am referring to all of the other terms which ARE allowable, such as 'pastor'. 'Pastor', 'preacher', 'evangelist', or any other term used in the NT to refer to the workers among us.

There seems to be a 'thing' that I never witnessed before coming here about what the person called to be an overseer of a congregation should be.

I never questioned when someone was called 'elder', 'pastor', or 'deacon'. We don't call anyone by those titles anyway. We call the senior pastor 'Ed' and the other pastors also by their first names.

I don't think there is the devotion to titles in denominations that some here seem to think there is. But then I don't really know, not having attended a denominational church in 33 years.

I am sorry that my words were a little sharp, but when I get that way it is in response to others' very sharp exchanges. It seems to be 'catching'.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000